erin's Timely Manipulations
by Taigan: 2003-06-07 | Not yet rated
In LOC, Merana worried often that Verin would try to take over her embassy. However, Verin stays out of most of their decisions until Demira is stabbed. Then Verin takes over the situation, and even cuts Merana off midsentece. I found it odd that Verin didn't question Demira's attack more closely. Afterall, she spent time with Rand, and I thought she would know him better. Or at least recognize a set-up. Instead she says, "Al'Thor has to respect Aes Sedai, or there will be no working with him," and proceeds to manipulate the situation which results in the confrontaion between Rand and the Aes Sedai, which results in Rand fleeing into a trap.
I never noticed any of this before, until I came across a quote by Merana. She was discussing the letter Rand left them when he left for Cairhien, when Verin walks in to tell them that Perrin had left with Rand. Merana thinks to herself, " To think that she had worried so over Verin, struggled so hard. Verin had hardly touched her own plans really, except for guiding Demira into suggesting today's unfortunate confrontation."
I was wondering what others made of these manipulations by Verin and her intent.
You cannot rate theories without first logging in. Please
log in.
1
Tamyrlin: 2003-06-13
It looks like I need to do a re-read. I don't think I have ever discussed Verin's part in LoC, but it would be interesting to find out that Verin was forcing conflict. Is there additional information you can cite to make her part in the manipulation more clear?
2
Weird Harold: 2003-06-13
Tamyrlin asked," Is there additional information you can cite to make her part in the manipulation more clear?"
I doubt that there is much more about this particular instance to make it more clear, but I'll bet there are a dozen or more other examples of Verin giving a nudge here and a bump there that lead to conflict through misunderstandings.
I don't recall the exact circumstances, but Verin met Rand "accidentally" in Far Madding and made a comment that steered him into actions that wound up in the dark cell that hardened him even more and put Cadsuane firmly in place as his advisor. (this was after she considered removing cadsuane, I think.)
Verin has a "Seventy-Year Plan" and is definitely steering events to fit it. My personal opinion is that she's working on information (or instructions) from Corianin Nedeal's notes. Verin is the only one who knows about Corianin's notes and what they contain, AND she's the only one with information from mysterious sources and a long-term concrete plan of her own. (as opposed to long-term goals driving relatively short-term plans, like Cadsuane, Moiraine and Siuan; among others.)
3
Tyr: 2003-06-17
Or maybe Verin is just one of those people who puts their nose in others buissness. Perhap her curiousity gives her motivation to do particular things, which, coincidentally, causing things likes Taigan's examples to happen. Her curiousity pulls her to Rand. She wants to be near Rand.It is how she found out about him. Maybe she didn't think she would have the support if she tried to take the embassy off the bat, so maybe she waited to be seen as a hero.
Then again, if Verin were like this i think there would be a lot less focus on her in the books then there is. Maybe she is evil, a puppet master behind all evil in the land. Maybe, just maybe, verin is the DO. LOL
4
Niahanchi: 2003-06-25
I am more inclined to believe Verin is part of the pattern's way to push Rand in the way he needs to go.
5
Tyr: 2003-06-27
Don't you think that Moraine was doing quite a good job of it by herself? Verin was introduced way before Moraine disapears. She was also meddling in things she shouldn't be way before Moraine dies. Although, one thing that is enormouisly peculiar is Verin, and her ACTIVITY in the world. Browns are seekers of knoledge, but they prefer being a few years behind. No brown would want to be active in the Dragon Reborn situation, yet they'd rather read about it ib 20 years,and anylise it then. Verin's action are much to like a someone from the Blue Ajah. Its like she was planted there, and was unuse to having to stick to specific character qualities. In ways Verin is a little too innocent to me, yet she has also a rebelious, shadey side. Someone having a personality clash like this has got issues. It makes you sometimes believe something about her firmly, then twenty pages later your beliefs are thrown in your face.
I don't know whats up about Verin, but one things, for sure, there is something up.
6
Him-who-may: 2003-06-28
Aes Sedei were at first written as a group of all knowing, all powerful priestess of sorts who are in control of the situation and are calm under pressure.
Then, as of the splitting of the tower, they have on the whole been less sure of things and less in control. The exceptions to these are: Verin, Cadsuanne, Adeleas and Vandene.
The second 2 are less so, particularly in relation to Adeleas' death, but Verin and Cadsuanne are currently the last sisters that are still portrayed as Aes Sedei were at first.
I think that these 2 shall be close together for the rest of the series and that as both have plans spinning away that they will either become very firm allies of come to a head.
Another point is that as of book 10 Eladia has also come back to the old form of being sure and confident since getting 1 over on Alvarin. This makes me sure that she will no longer be a shrinking violet as with the last few booksand shall return to the angry, powerful woman she was when she first came to power.
7
Jiana: 2003-06-29
Verin, Verin, Verin... She is one of many characters in the books that just flat out makes me wonder. One thing that crossed my mind is this: Remember Ingtar, who swore to the Shadow with thoughts that maybe he could fight the Shadow from within? Just a thought, not a hard core belief of mine, but what if Verin did the same thing?
8
Him-who-may: 2003-06-30
If Verin had sworn to the shadow, even under false pretences, then she would have been freed from the 3 oaths like the rest of the BA.
However we see Verin behaving in such a way so that she is counteracting the oath about saying no word that is not true. For example when using her funny form of compulsion on the Aes-Sedei in the Aeil tents she thinks to herself out of lying when talking about the dizzyness in the Path of daggers prologue.
9
Jiana: 2003-07-03
Him-who-may, I still hold that Verin has lied at least once during the series, in TGH. She was trailing Perrin and Ingtar's party, and when she finally caught up to them, she was asked what she was doing there. Her response: "Moiraine Sedai sent me." Later in the book, Moiraine says "I did not send Verin." So... either Verin lied or she is more adept than any other AS at making an untruth comfortable for herself.
10
Him-who-may: 2003-07-03
Yes, this little poser still puzzles me. However I still think that Verin's "Moiraine sent me" line to Ingtar is not a lie, but a clever little trick, most probably her talking her way it as only AS can :)
There is even the possibility that Verin used her rather unusual form of compulsion on Moiraine to acheive this, although I doubt it.
My argument rests on that if Verin could lie then why would she be so careful with what she says in the "Path of Daggers" prologue?
11
Rhodric: 2003-07-08
I have a theory to explain Verin's infamous 'lie'.
in TGH, in Fal Dara, we know that Verin, Moiraine and Siuan are often closed up in rooms talking. i think in one of these talks, Verin and Moiraine argued about whether someone should be there to guide Rand (Verin said I'll do it, Moiraine said no-one should). i believe that eventually Moiraine conceded, but unwillingly. So:
TGH, ch14 Wolfbrother:
"Moiraine Sedia sent me, Lord Ingtar," Verin announced with a satisfied smile. "She thought you might need me...."
so Verin believes she won the argument, and had Moiraine's blessing to guide the 3 Ta'veren
now Moiraine was not very happy about the outcome of this argument, but she eventually told Verin, "perhaps they MAY need you."
TGH, ch49, What Was Meant To Be:
** "What you could. You sent Verin to shepherd me, but I'm no sheep, Moiraine. You said I could go where I wanted, and I mean to go where you're not."
"I did not send Verin." Moiraine frowned. "She did that on her own. You are of interest to a great many people, Rand. Did Fain find you, or you him?"
The sudden change of topic took him by surprise.**
i have heard it said Moiraine frowned is a sign of confusion, but i think it is a sign of anger. She still is unhappy with Verin for going against her wishes, but Moiraine eventually conceded that Verin should go. But why would she tell a dumb farmer about an argument between AS? it's none of his wool-headed business.
that's my reasoning. Verin didn't lie. it was simply a difference of opinions about a conversation.
12
Aelfinn: 2003-12-18
This is something from the WOT FAQ.
***1) VERINISM: In TGH, Verin tells the boys that Moiraine sent her to look after them: [TGH: 14, Wolfbrother, 195] "Moiraine Sedai sent me, Lord Ingtar," Verin announced with a satisfied smile. "She thought you might need me." Moiraine later says that she did NOT send Verin: [TGH: 49, What was Meant To Be, 572] "I did not send Verin." Moiraine frowned. "She did that on her own." It is pretty obvious that Moiraine is not BA, so that implies that Verin lied, and hence must be BA.
***EXPLANATION: Verin could have been tricked by somebody masquerading as Moiraine. Or, perhaps she managed to find an interpretation of her words that could be taken as the truth. (Moiraine wanted somebody to watch over you guys, but she couldn't be here...) Now, MAYBE Verin is using some sneaky thought process to get around the Oath: '"Moiraine Sedai sent me, Lord Ingtar," Verin announced with a satisfied smile (recalling how satisfying the beer and pizza Moiraine had sent her for had been, and also how satisfying it had been to come up with a literally true statement which would preclude any questions from Rand, et. al.)' [Edward Measure] ***
My view on Verin is that she's one of those characters you love to read about, but would hate to meet. She sticks her nose into everyone's business, twists the truth in a greater degree than even other AS, and is generally NOT someone I want to live next door. However, I DON'T THINK SHE'S EVIL! IF SHE'S HELPING THE BAD GUYS THEN SHE'S DOING IT UNWILLINGLY!
Just a favourite character. ("See, hear, and speak no evil of your favourite characters.")
13
Aiel Finn: 2004-12-07
Personally, I think Verin is not BA or any sort of DF. She's devoted to helping Rand. I belive that all her rationalization is allowing her to "lie" from lots of practice. Also, she has the notes of the only person in the tower who has been repeatedly to the world of dreams, and had access to a dream ter'angreal. I think that she has either seen some prophecy herself or has one from the notes. This would obligate her to helping.
14
clarkkd: 2004-12-09
I think Verin actually set Demira up.
15
Jiana: 2004-12-09
Another idea I have played with is that Verin is an agent of the Creator, but I have no proof or evidence of that sort, so that one kind of deflates, especially given that the Creator can't touch the world. But I have finally decided that I don't think she lied. Aelfinn, as I was re-reading this from the top, it began to dawn on me that maybe Moiraine sent Verin SOMEWHERE, but not necessarily to track the guys, and you hit the nail on the head. The discussion could have been about whether or not they needed an AS to guide them, and Moiraine said something like "They may need you, but it would be best if we didn't interfere." Or perhaps "They may need you, but they need me more, and I cannot be there so no one can." (Moiraine has a right to be jealous of other AS getting near the boys; she found them after all.) Maybe Verin argued, and maybe Moiraine SENT Verin out of the room. Dismissed her by saying "You may go now." I can't remember if Moiraine was stronger in the OP than Verin, but if she were, Verin would have left... then analyzed that conversation and picked out the bits that helped her along in her plan while still allowing her to adhere to the Oath about lying, i.e., "They may need you" and "you may go now."
