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eart Stone
by golem22: 2004-11-07 | 3.5 out of 10 (6 votes)
Previous Categories: The Wheel of Time
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2005-01-04
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
Heartstone was a rarity even in the Age of Legends. Now, granted, it looks like the rebel Aes Sedai are able to make it again, with a bit of effort. Odds are there were people with Egwene's level of Talent in the Age of Legends, so the fact that there aren't any pieces of Heartstone armor or weapons means one of two things: either the AoL'ers didn't think of it (pacifistic utopia crumbling into chaos and all), or there's a drawback to having armaments made of heartstone. (weight, maybe?)
There are thousands of soliders in the Rebel army. There aren't enough channelers with the Talent to make a dent in their armor supply (pun intended). Also, if soldiers started appearing with Heartstone armaments, it would tell the world that the Rebels knew how to make (or acquire) heartstone, and that's something that Egwene seemed to be playing close to the vest. At least as far as letting Tar Valon know about it.
WinespringBrother: 2005-01-04
The only point of outfitting the rebel soldiers with heartstone armor would be to protect from channeling attacks, and since they are there to battle the White Tower, to protect from the entrenched Aes Sedai, who are presumably oathbound and can't attack with the Power unless their lives are threatened. But the rebels aren't there to kill them anyway, only to neutralize the Tower's guards presumably. So heartstone wouldn't do much for them, armor wise.
Gareth: 2005-01-04
There is also the matter of money. As many soldiers in Egwene's army enrolled for the pay as there are who did so because their lord were "tricked" into following her in belief a battle was going to happen. Given the price of heartstone, I wouldn't be surprised if a great number of those mercenaries left immediately. I mean, by selling one single armor, they could earn enough money to live in luxury until they die. And Egwene needs every man she can use.
jaellon: 2005-01-04
One unfortunate effect of turning armor into cuendillar is the same effect the harbor gates received. The links all fused together, making them unmovable.
Any armor that depends on movable parts would be rendered useless. Most gauntlets are designed with small joints that allow limited movement. Chain mail would lose its greatest advantage, freedom of movement. Any armor that uses clasps would have to be converted while the soldier was still wearing it. Good luck getting that off. :)
Nonmoving items, like helmets, could probably be upgraded. Armor plates that depend on straps to hold them in place could too, I imagine.
Callandor: 2005-01-04
There's no point. Battle is a last ditch effort for the Rebels. If they have to fight Aes Sedai to Aes Sedai, they might as well stop swearing the Oaths anyway ;).
bigjellybeans: 2005-01-04
Good idea but the channellers have a hard enough time making bracelets out of heartstone. There is no way in hell they're gonna make armor for many thousands of soldiers. And for those that say that it would protect them from the OP they will just apply the same technique as they would against Matt and attack him indirectly ex: lifting a boulder on to their head.
NargsBrood: 2005-01-05
what do you mean it wouldnt do any good except against the OP? It is supposedly indesctructable, so wouldnt that be of good use against a blade to the heart? Someone could strike you all day and crush you with a million pounds and it wouldnt break. They ONLY drawback that I c is the weight issue? are there any references to the weight of heartstone?
Githraine: 2005-01-05
WinespringBrother, Armor that cannot be pierced, that can be made paper thin, would give soldiers an overwhelmimg advantage over their enemies. A small group of shock troops armored with hearstone plate could take a bridge unsupported. Long ago 300 Spartan elite soldiers held a small pass against a persian army that numbered 100,000 men long enough for the rest of the greek army to mobalize. The persians were so disheartened they could not overwhelm this small force they turned back. That small force had better training and heavier armor that the persians could not break through. Armor can make all the difference.
I have often wondered why heartstone armor was never made, especially as now we see how easily it could have been done.
a dragonburned fool: 2005-01-05
Another problem with cuendillar is, that it must be made only of a single piece iron. If two pieces iron are close to each other when they are transformed to cuendillar, they merge into some ugly stuff, as happened to two cups under the work of Bode Cauthon. This makes it impossible to make an artefact of few permanently attached together pieces cuendillar (as is required for an usable piece of armor). Cuendillar is in no way flexible, so an armor of heartstone would be just impossible to put on and put off. In a full cuendillar armor a soldier will be like a statue. A shield of cuendillar can still be useful, but armor will be unpractical.
Aiel Finn: 2005-01-06
Armor could be made, just only certian types. Holes must be left for straps and indevidual pieces could still be joined by normal steel. This however would further complicate the making of it.
NargsBrood: 2005-01-07
I wholeheartedly disagree with what you have said dragonburned. You dont have to try to fuse the multiple pieces together. just link them together with links of heartstone.
It does not make it impossible to make artifacts of a few not permanently attached together pieces. And it is not required for a usable piece of armor to have all of its pieces permanently attatched.(links) I am not saying to make the entire thing of links. Have a front piece and a back piece and they are linked together by a few links. they dont even have to be links of cuendillar but of any other hard moldable material.
Doing it like this or in a similar fasion, although cuendillar itself is in no way flexible, would make it donable. And with links, they would not be as a statue but as a viper. There armor would be smaller and lighter than that of their enemies but infinitely stronger.
Callandor: 2005-01-07
**You dont have to try to fuse the multiple pieces together. just link them together with links of heartstone.**
How? Chainmail is formed by linking 3 whole pieces of iron rings, to one clasped ring and then sealing it, generally by physical force (hammer to anvil). How do you do that to Cuendillar? The armor might as well be regular mail then.
Using full plate armor piece by piece I could see the application, but then to destroy it you apply the same principles that people have been using since the invention of plate armor -- go for the joints and spaces.
NargsBrood: 2005-01-08
You turn the link into heartstone after it has already been hammered to link the 2 heartstone pieces. If it doesnt work, dont turn it into heartstone. Just leave it as iron links.
**Using full plate armor piece by piece I could see the application, but then to destroy it you apply the same principles that people have been using since the invention of plate armor -- go for the joints and spaces.** Not destroy, but get around. Cuendillar is indestructable. However, What would be better, regular plate amor or plate armor made of cuendillar? There is no comparison. You make it sound as if Striking the joints and spaces in the heat of a battle is easy. Ive never been there but it sounds like precision work to me. Difficult. I see the armor taking most of the blows preventing many critical strikes to vital organ areas. It would also protect a great deal against heat from fireballs woven by channelors and everything upto baelfire which just makes the armor stronger.
If it were of normal iron then that armor would be dented, pierced and eventually hinder more than help. And melted by any flow thrown out by a channelor. Cuendillar would do nothing but allow the skin underneath to be bruised by the force of the blow; you would still be injured because underneath is flesh and blood but it would be very difficult to pierce that flesh and spill that blood thus preserving your life longer allowing you to kill more of your enemies and overcome the enemy yadda yadda.
In short, creating armor of heartstone would be very practical and not as dificult as a blacksmith's puzzle. *shrugs* An aes sedai of the Green Battle Ajah with a blacksmith as a warder... they could add the cuendillar armor to the warder's outfit(cloak).
Githraine: 2005-01-11
Chainmaile would be very easy, just time consuming.
To start make 4 links of Heartstone (it is 4 in 1, not 3 in 1) then link them with one iron link. Then make that link Heartstone. Continue by adding one iron link and changing it to heart stone at a time.
The same process would work for Articulated Plate Maile, the rivits are the last to get converted.
Dorindha: 2005-01-11
Callandor's indicated that the link thing won't work, but I just thought I'd add - the whole reason for changing the harbour chains to cuendillar is so they will become solid, and we know you can't break cuendillar (which I assume to include any form of bending etc, bearing in mind what it's like) so any chaining after it's changed isn't going to work.
However, a heartstone shield could be useful. BUT, how heavy do you (everyone) think it is? I've always felt it would be more like stone than iron, which would be difficult for anything big and portable
Stilicho: 2005-01-11
Callandor is right. While breastplates, backplates, greaves, etc. could be fashioned from Cuendillar, the straps and bindings would have to be more mundane substances. It doesn't appear that effort would be worthwhile because a OP user could destroy the straps and bindings that hold the armor on the wearer. Picture Uno trying to fight with one hand while trying to hold his armor in place (and perhaps protect his dignity) with the other. While there would be some value to having an indestructible breastplate, the OP could be used to find the chinks even more readily than a lance or sword. Thus, steel suffices against steel, while against the OP...duck quickly.
Callandor: 2005-01-12
**You turn the link into heartstone after it has already been hammered to link the 2 heartstone pieces. If it doesnt work, dont turn it into heartstone. Just leave it as iron links.**
When two pieces are turned at the same time they merge; that's exactly what happened to the Harbor chain. If you leave it as is, what's the point of even thinking of cuendillar armor?
**Not destroy, but get around. Cuendillar is indestructable. However, What would be better, regular plate amor or plate armor made of cuendillar? There is no comparison. You make it sound as if Striking the joints and spaces in the heat of a battle is easy.**
To trained soliders, it can be. Armor has quite a few weaknesses. In armor, shoulders, knees, back of arms, back of legs, neck, are all weakenesses because of the gaps. Cuendillar doesn't stop that.
**It would also protect a great deal against heat from fireballs woven by channelors and everything upto baelfire which just makes the armor stronger.**
The person isn't in an invulunerable bubble. The heat from a flame if applied directly to the cuendillar would suffer the damage (none), but if it's fire all over, the person is going to feel the heat.
Callandor: 2005-01-13
**However, a heartstone shield could be useful. BUT, how heavy do you (everyone) think it is? I've always felt it would be more like stone than iron, which would be difficult for anything big and portable**
Depends really. The novices, Accepted, and Aes Sedai that are making cuendillar in the Rebel camp seem able to lift the pieces they are making, so protection like guantlets I could see. There are also the wineglasses that the Forsaken are drinking in WH that are made of cuendillar and seem to be just like glass.
Large scale pieces, we really only have the harbor chain to take an example of, and that we don't know about. Personally, I don't think the weight would be too much of an issue, if really at all.
And yes, I know the reason for the harbor chain, but that doesn't work for the mail defenses. It ~would~ become all one piece, and lose, as someone said, it's best advantage -- it's flexibility.
Aendur: 2005-01-13
I'm not sure, someone MIGHT have said this, but it bears saying: while regular-thickness armor/shields/whatever might weigh too much, you can make them paper-thin and still have the same unbreakability. I find it hard to believe that such thin objects can weigh much. Callandor has a point: they can pick up the glasses and other small objects, sufficiently thin shields should work fine too.
Oh, and they can't make weapons, right? But, as we've seen, Oaths are mostly matters of interpretation. Can they make cuendillar butter knives, or meat cleavers, if they genuinely BELIEVE they won't be used to harm human beings? Obviously, some other rationale would have to be found to warrant Cuendillar-izing cookware, but that's another issue.
Githraine: 2005-01-14
Callandor, you are missing the point.
The fusing only occurs when the links are converted at the same time.
Re read my earlier post, the idea is to make a pile of solo links, join them with iron, then convert the iron.
from everything we have seen, this will work.
Also, about making a breast plate etc, for all of history people have tried to make armor stronger because of the advantage it gives. Those 'chinks' in the armor are hard to hit in the chaos of battle, and are usually covered in Chain maile. A true set of Heartstone armor would be an amazing advantage. Just having a breastplate that could not be defeated by a pile headed crossbow bolt would be large.
As to degree, and to defense vs. Channeling: in battle, a small improvement in the odds of surviving an attack, of whatever source, is an amazing advantage. Two ranks of men so armored could easily take one of the bridges, where the main advantagen of the defenders is ranged support from the walls above.
NargsBrood: 2005-01-14
***
When two pieces are turned at the same time they merge; that's exactly what happened to the Harbor chain. If you leave it as is, what's the point of even thinking of cuendillar armor? ***
I was saying not at the same time. once the plates are already made, join them together with a link that you will later turn into cuendillar(not at same time) after it is already linking the plates. Cuendillar is indestructable, it cant be fused with another piece of cuendillar if it was turned into cuendillar an hour before the one you are working on now.
***
To trained soliders, it can be. Armor has quite a few weaknesses. In armor, shoulders, knees, back of arms, back of legs, neck, are all weakenesses because of the gaps. Cuendillar doesn't stop that. ***
Its not as if wearing armor or no armor makes no difference against trained warriros, it does. And again, what is going to be better, regular armor or armor constructed of cuendillar. Of course you can still get around it but armor in any case is designed to make you is invulnerable as possible whether there are chinks or gaps or whatever. It is not designed to protect you from a channelor but from a sword, it would simply be an added protection from certain types of weaves such as baelfire as well as others. It would be similar but different to Mat's foxhead medallion.(we know the differences). In any case, Gareth's army is not expecting to go up against channelors but up against hired goons. Armor can be damaged, dented, weakened and even pierced. Crossbow bolts can pierce armor. This would not happen with cuendillar armor. Of course you can still aim for the chinks/gaps in the armor and hit your target but it is all that more difficult.
NargsBrood: 2005-01-14
***And yes, I know the reason for the harbor chain, but that doesn't work for the mail defenses. It ~would~ become all one piece, and lose, as someone said, it's best advantage -- it's flexibility. ***
When she turned the harbor chain into heartstone, she did them all at the same time.(multiple pieces at same time you mentioned earlier) The chain was fused together as was the piece the novice was working on. What would happen if she did it link by link? Would it retain its flexibility? I believe it would.
Anubis: 2005-01-16
whose to say that the armor needs to be heartstone? Heron mark blades are unbreakable and they arent cuellindar. I bet a channeler could make an unbreakable chain mail.
Callandor, you do bring up a good point. Trained soldiers are just going to go for the joints. However, we dont exactly have two armies of trained soldiers fighting eachother. We have a Tower Guard, which is mostly conscripts and new recruits, and Egwenes army, most of which is also new recruits. The best soldiers in the bunch are probably Brynes group or the Shinerians. Giving them power wraught armor would be a nice advantage imho.
Callandor: 2005-01-16
**Re read my earlier post, the idea is to make a pile of solo links, join them with iron, then convert the iron.**
And tell me, how are they to stop the overlaping parts from turning and fusing?
**As to degree, and to defense vs. Channeling: in battle, a small improvement in the odds of surviving an attack, of whatever source, is an amazing advantage. Two ranks of men so armored could easily take one of the bridges, where the main advantagen of the defenders is ranged support from the walls above.**
If any of the Aes Sedai knew the weave that Rand used against Sammael (doubtful of course), with it's broad multitude of laser-beam-like projectiles of Fire, those weaknesses in chainmail can become deadly.
**In any case, Gareth's army is not expecting to go up against channelors but up against hired goons.**
What? They're going to storm the city of the heart of Aes Sedai power -- but none of them expect to be attacked by the One Power.
**What would happen if she did it link by link? Would it retain its flexibility? I believe it would.**
How could she, since the links were in direct contact at all times?
a dragonburned fool: 2005-01-18
I have forgotten thast the fusion happened only when the weave was attempted on two object in the same time. However it is still unknown, if it is possible to transform into cuendillar a piece of iron that is linked with something else or even just touching something else. Cuendillar is made by two weaves - one to surround the object and another to transform the metal. In the tent where AS and novuces work on cuendillar we see them holding the objects in the air (because when any of them suddenly releases the weave, the unfinished artifact falls down on her table, i.e. it was flying in the air above the table before. This is IMO indication that an object transformed into cuendillar must not touch anything. If the weave is tried on a single piece in a chain linkage, then the surrounding weave would touch also the other pieces and so the transforming weave will touch the both. We don't know, how far must the object be from any other objects, but I doubt that the distance between the pieces of a chain mail will be far enough.
What we have seen in the cuendillar manufacture tent makes me to doubt that the rebel AS would be able to create enough armor even if they wanted. Only Egwene and Leane are able to transform cuendillar fast enough for the masses needed for a helmet or breastplate, the others spend very much time on very small objects. But the AS wouldn't want to produce the armors. The reason they did the whole thing was to sell the cuendillar and get money. Gareths hired soldiers having GREAT pieces of cuendillar would cause most likely an epidemy of cuendillar business that will cause very significant fall of the market value of cuendillar and so will spoil AS's efforts to get money. An army with cuendillar armor will be an advantage, but not so decisive thought. The lack of money will be greater disadvantage for the AS than the conventional armors of the army.
The rebel AS don't know how to produce the OP-wrought steal of the heron-mark swords. If the same metal would be used for armors it will not violate the oaths and it will be much more usefull than cuendillar with it's limitations. But the rebel AS don't know how to produce Power-wrought iron.
Aendur: 2005-01-20
Anubis, wrong and wrong. Heron-mark blades (the originals, from the AoL) ARE cuendillar.
Also, the Tower Guard, while bolstered by new recruits, has a strong core of regular, trained soldiers, plus YOUNGLINGS. So do the Salidar AS, such as Red Hand soldiers, Shienarans (who are training the new recruits) some Murandians (I think, not sure on that one). Not to mention, of course, Warders on both sides.
NargsBrood: 2005-01-21
Turn the iron in the soldier's blood into heartstone(sarcasm)... invincible supermen.
***
And tell me, how are they to stop the overlaping parts from turning and fusing?
***
As DB said, seperate them from eachother with weaves of air... stuff it with cotton... use your imagination.*shrugs* It is difinately possible, with some limits of course, to create heartstone armor of some sort which any mind can concieve would be better than armor fashioned of steel.
How bout cuendillar-backed breastplate(again... use imagination as to how this would be done, one easily comes to mind)
The idea i am presenting is that if you had heartstone between you and your oponents sword/bolt, it would be a great advantage. Even if it were just 2 plates(cover your front/backside) joined together with TWINE. As for technicalities, we can all use our imaginations.
Callandor: 2005-01-21
**Anubis, wrong and wrong. Heron-mark blades (the originals, from the AoL) ARE cuendillar.**
No, they're not. The swords are Power-wrought metal, not cuendillar.
**Also, the Tower Guard, while bolstered by new recruits, has a strong core of regular, trained soldiers, plus YOUNGLINGS. So do the Salidar AS, such as Red Hand soldiers, Shienarans (who are training the new recruits) some Murandians (I think, not sure on that one). Not to mention, of course, Warders on both sides.**
The Guard hasn't been given a prior number (as far as I can remember), but everyone remarks about the Guard being increased to 50,000 as quite a feet (plus who knows if it actually got that high). At most, I would say there were originally 10,000 men, so that's a lot of new comers. The Younglings maybe quite an elite force, but there around 300 in total.
Aiel Finn: 2005-01-24
The Red Hand is not with the SAS at the moment. Also, I belive that, although it has not been explicitly stated in the books, the power-wrought blades are normal good steel blades further enhanced by using the weave called "Aligning the Matrix". Because of this, I think that Ewgene could make a power-wrought blade becuase both the Sanchean and Moggy taught her about working with metals, and she is unusually strong with Earth.
Jiana: 2005-01-24
**"Oh, and they can't make weapons, right? But, as we've seen, Oaths are mostly matters of interpretation. Can they make cuendillar butter knives, or meat cleavers, if they genuinely BELIEVE they won't be used to harm human beings?"
The answer is probably, but anyway... Armor is not a "weapon for one man to kill another." Armor is protection, which IMO is permissible under the Three Oaths.
Aendur: 2005-01-25
**Armor is not a "weapon for one man to kill another."**
No, it's not, but it can be just as deadly in its own way. Shields or armor with spikes on them may be out of the question (though I can't be sure on the second, that's only going to be hurting someone if they fall on the guy, but oh well) for cuendillar-ization, but a normal rock or metal plate made of cuendillar becomes a weapon. If I throw a rock at you, it hurts, correct? And the more mass it has, and the harder it is (less give, as in the form of pores), the more it will hurt. Now imagine this rock becomes INFINITELY HARD. This rock is a weapon. By extension, if you hit someone with a cuendillar gauntlet, you could probably break their bones quite easily. The only limitation I see is the amount of momentum a soldier can put behind the cuendillar.
Jiana: 2005-01-26
Point taken Aendur, yes, if you throw a rock at me, it'll hurt... Anything made of cuendillar could be used as a weapon, even down to the goblets, if used as projectiles. I still hold that the hypothetical armor would not be made with the *intention* of being used as a weapon, and that would make it permissible. Think about it... anything on this earth or that one can be used as a weapon, almost anything at all. I am aware that this would rarely if ever happen, but let's say a Warder got caught unarmed, but he has his cloak handy. He fights using hands and feet, and finally gets into a position where he could strangle his attacker with his cloak. That would make the Warder cloaks weapons. Would that mean that the Aes Sedai could no longer make that kind of cloth? :)
Aendur: 2005-01-26
I agree, and that was my point. I wasn't saying that Aes Sedai would have to stop making the things, only that such things are matters of interpretation, and AS are MASTERS of re-interpreting things the way they want them.
Jack o Shadows: 2005-01-30
Making Heartstone chainmail would be easy, relativley. Okay sure, peices of whatever fuse when their converted if they're touching but we're dealing with channelers here, interpose a thin layer of air between the links during conversion and voila. Hell, it might not even be as hard as normal chainmail. Make the thing out of wool and convet it it's still gonna be indestructable. Put a perminant weave on it so that there is a layer of air inside you can't close and you have a suit of chainmail that can't be peirced and won't hurt via impact damage. (Update: heartstone gas? Technically possible, it would convert it to a solid... you could just form air into heartmail with a little effort)
Dannil Lewin: 2005-01-31
sorry jack but wool doesn't turn into heartstone. That is why they have the blacksmiths making bowls and cups,etc. They have to use iron or steel to begin with. I agree that the channeler could probably hold the links apart with air and convert them that way, except that it takes a lot of power to split your weaves. More and more power the more times you split them. How many times would you have to split your weaves to hold every piece of metal in a chain mail shirt appart AND turn them all to cuendillar? I'm thinking it's two per link, so that's a whole lot of flows to handle at once.
On the other hand, a large chain made out of cuendillar is possible since you could make it one link at a time. Make the first link, turn it to cuendillar. Make the second one, putting it through the first, and change it to cuendillar. And so on until you have a chain however big you want. This would be very time consuming however so I doubt it would ever be done, but it is possible to make a flexible chain out of cuendillar.
Fox Eyes: 2005-02-02
Cuendillar armour, chainmail, gauntlets etc. can probably be made, with a great deal of time and effort by channelers. However, i find it hard to believe we will ever see this occur in the books. In my opinion a far more likely occurance would be the production of power-wrought blades by the rebel Aes Sedai
Anubis: 2005-02-02
not while the three oaths are in place. egwene could make them, as could the accepted/novices though....
a dragonburned fool: 2005-02-03
***Making Heartstone chainmail would be easy, relativley. Okay sure, peices of whatever fuse when their converted if they're touching but we're dealing with channelers here, interpose a thin layer of air between the links during conversion and voila. Hell, it might not even be as hard as normal chainmail.***
Possibility for this to work depends on how thick is the weave that is used to wrap the object during the cuendillar-creation process. I fear it's thick. When the novice is making cuendillar and her time for lessons come, she releases the weave and the cup falls to the desk. I.e. while the novice worked on it, the cup was hold in the air high enough for it falling down to be noticed. Why she has to hold it so high if it is not necessary for cuendillar conversion. Note that the weave, about the thickness of which I'm speaking, is not just a barrier but an integral part of teh cuendillar convertion and it is even more comlicite (more different elements included) than the second weave that works directly on the metal. I don't know whether the Holding weave's thicknell depends on the size of the object, but it's also possible. But if it is not dependent, than it is at least thicker than the diameter of a chainmail-ring (that pieces must be small for the whole armor to be effective). So if two pieces are linked, there would be no place for the Holding weave.
Aiel Finn: 2005-02-03
I don't think that the thickness of the weave matters in separating the Cuellendar from it's surroundings. If you remember from when the girls are learning to channel, they say that very tiny weaves are more difficult to form. Another example is when Nyn is trying to shield or sever Moggy, she says that keeping a weave thin and sharp is hard. I think that the height above the table and the thick weaves holding it are just because the AS who is making cuellendar finds the larger weaves easier to hold without concentrating and that holding it higher gives a better view. (e.g. it's easier to hold a mug 2" above a table than .02" above it)
Jalt Varyd: 2005-02-04
My opinion on the matter is that heartstone armor would be possible to make, and very useful, but difficult and time consuming. It probably wouldn't be useful enough to be worth the amount of effort required. There's no way they could make enough for an entire army in any reasonable time, and how would you decide who gets it if just a few sets are made?
Plate mail would certainly be possible, and overlapping pieces could probably do a fair amount to protect the bits that hold it together. I don't think we have enough information to be sure about chain mail, since we haven't seen anyone try to put together a flexible chain.
As for the weight issue, I would think that armor could be made thin enough that it would still be wearable as heartstone. Those who have picked up pieces of it haven't commented about how heavy it is, so I don't think it's likely to be much denser than iron, if any.
I don't see how it could fail to be useful in battle. A good war hammer or mace or battle axe could crush even plate armor or a good helmet; that's why they were useful. Nothing would be able to even dent heartstone armor, which makes one less type of attack to guard against.
Thus, I think that heartstone armor would be possible and useful, but not practical for mass production. Perhaps they could make and sell a set few of it... think how much a wealthy lord might pay for such protection!
I've been wanting heartstone armor since I first saw the stuff mentioned. ;)
Dannil Lewin: 2005-02-04
I just thought of a problem with cuendillar armor. Just because it doesn't break or even get dented when it gets hit doesn't mean that the person inside it wouldn't take some injury. The force of the blow still has to go somewhere. If someone took a warhammer or mace and hit the person hard enough they would get knocked off their feet at the very least and since no armor fits perfectly the bouncing around inside could get pretty rough. Plus once they are off their feet its a lot easier to jump on them and stab them in the weak spots of the armor. I suppose it would still be more protection than regular steel, but it has some weaknesses too. Just because it is impenetrable doesn't mean it makes its wearer invulnerable.
Fox Eyes: 2005-02-04
Dannil Lewin-
"Just because it is impenetrable doesn't mean it makes its wearer invulnerable"
Exactly! Heartstone armor might prove more durable than more familiar armor types, which could be very useful,but as far as protection goes armor made of cuendillar still leaves the wearer vulnerable to melee attacks.
Jack o Shadows: 2005-02-04
a) You wouldn't have ot make the whole thing at once, you could do it a link at a time, less effort involved that way but it'd take longer.
b) Like I said about the concussive effect of being hit with somthing, the actual force beind the blow, just have a weaving of air inside to stop you being hit by the armour (after it's been hit) and you wouldn't so muhc as feel the blows. :)
Korell: 2005-02-05
Just thought i would make a little comment to this whole theory. I must admit i have not read the whole thread but i am time constrained so on with it. I just have one question about this whole cullendar armor. If i shoot a OP fireball at you and your armor absorbs it does it absorb the heat generated as well? i would think if you had any exposed areas those would not be protected from the massive amount of heat created and at the very least you would resive severe burns if not becoming compleatly charred where you are not protected (can anyway say full faceplate). also Cullendar would work against channlers only to a limited extent because when directly hit it absorbs the OP however Mats medallion absorbs weaves that touch his person so he cannot even be mind controlled as long as he has it touching his skin. but there is nothing to stop it with cullendar. anyway i still think it is a great idea to have the armor for battle purposes and i am sure there is a way to work it out. But i do have to agree with Callandor it would have to be plate i just dont think chain or scale would work well because of the moving parts. anyway great ideas here!
NargsBrood: 2005-02-05
Before we can agree on a method of making cuendillar armor, we must first agree that it would fulfill its purpose and be a greater advantage than steel.
The simple truth: cuendillar amor would provide MORE protection than steel armor and would never need repair as does armor of steel. PERIOD. Steel armor has almost no advantage over cuendillar but cuendillar has several over steel. Again, PERIOD. No if's and's or but's about it.
Steel: (dis)advantages
the only one in favor of steel is that it is faster to fabricate, easy to equip an entire army
not hard at all in comparison
need repairs after each battle, slowing everything down
no protection against channeling
Cuendillar: (dis)advantages
only one against cuendillar is that it takes longer to fabricate(impossible to equip an entire army)
Harder
Never need repair
Provides much protection against channeling. any flows that touch it are absorbed
moving on,
***
Just because it doesn't break or even get dented when it gets hit doesn't mean that the person inside it wouldn't take some injury. The force of the blow still has to go somewhere.
***
Yeah, they may even break several ribs if they are hit hard enough. This has been discussed a little further up the thread to some degree but centered more on piercing blows. The weapon of choice in randland seems to be the sword for its prestige. We know that a good bow is going to be better than a sword and everyone in randland knows it We learn from mat's encounter with galad and gawyn from what the warder tells them afterwards aside from their whomping which is saying something when we see the extent of galad's skill when he tries to cut a way to the boat for his sister and nyn and aviendah. The shienarans who are seasoned warriors took several injuries where Galad took none. Anyway, back to the point: Weapon of choice is the sword. We also see lances and pikes(and dirivitives) quite often. Lances would just deflect off the armor and pikes are for piercing, not for striking blunt blows. We have not seen too many with maces(maybe 1 or 2, I dont recall) or any at all with warhammers... i guess a cudgle could be a form of a warhammer... but still not very prevelant.
What a great advantage it would be to equip even just the leaders and captains and general of an army with cuendillar armor. Equip the warders and you have nearly invincible warriors.
Again: The simple Truth
Cuendillar armor would provide MORE protection than steel armor and would never need repair as does armor of steel. Setting time restraints and restrictions and what not aside: Cuendillar armor WOULD be better. PERIOD.
I am in accordance with that I dont believe we will see cuendillar armor in the series but it is interesting to think about.
Satin alEllien Moonsong: 2005-02-06
exactly, its basically a very time-consuming material that is hard to work with but is INDESTRUCTABLE when it is actually made! how can people even consider steel to be in the same ballpark?!? There MAY be some reason as to why this has not been done before, why did they strengthen swords instead of making them cuendillar?, but i think it is more likely that cuendillar was considered too decorative to be used for war, despite its many useful properties.
bigjellybeans: 2005-02-07
"Equip the warders and you have nearly invincible warriors." I see this as very possible. AS would have no problem spending time to help further protect their warders. A nice cuendillar breastplate or simple helmet would be an addition to the warders cloak as something they would recieve for becoming a warder
golem22: 2006-08-11
When i originally made this theory i did not realise it would spark such a debate! I just want to comment that in my humble opinion, yes heartsone armour would be to expensive for most people to have but i allways wondered why some of the rand supporting people in the rebel camp would not make some armour for at the vary least rand. Everyone knows that rand is the answer to everything and if he dies its all over. So equiping him with said armour would make him have a much easier time dealing with the threats around him.
JakOShadows: 2006-08-14
golem22:
I don't think there are any AS around Rand who have personally seen it made. Otherwise, I would agree with you. And you also have to remember he is quite stubborn as well. But I think those two reasons would explain a lot.
Anubis: 2006-08-14
**Cuendillar armor would provide MORE protection than steel armor and would never need repair as does armor of steel. Setting time restraints and restrictions and what not aside: Cuendillar armor WOULD be better. PERIOD.**
You are leaving out the fact that Cuendillar could be made to be much lighter than metal armor, which would provide another glorious advantage.
BrainFireBob: 2006-08-15
Make Heartstone arrows for hunting.
Make weapons for weapon to kill other women.