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layer's origin
by Great Lord of the Dark: 2004-11-11 | 5.73 out of 10 (11 votes)
Previous Categories: Slayer's Role - Luc and Isam
Last anyone heard, Isam and his mom had been run down by Trollocs when Malkier fell. Yet he shows up as Slayer, seemingly merged with Luc, and a high-ranking Shadowsworn. How did he get there? I propose...
Due to her role in the fall of Malkier, and of the potential importance of Isam as heir to the throne of Malkier, Isam's mother was spared, as was her son. She was kept alive to raise Isam, and he was raised in the Blight, under the Shadow.
Years later, as described in the Dark prophecy from Book 2, Luc entered the Blight and killed Isam in the high passes. One did live, and one did die.
Yet both are. There is only one entity with the power to merge these two people in one body: The Dark One. He the only one with the proven ability to move souls from one body to another.
His powers were weak in this time period, but he had already rendered the seals fragile, and as such, he could touch the world for a limited radius near Shayol Ghul. There he saw his dedicated servant Isam fall, and saved him by placing his soul in the only human body nearby: Luc's.
Luc's soul was not displaced though, and similar to the Fain-Mordeth combo, Luc and Isam came to terms with one another, and co-existed in the same body, merging their essences.
Slayer was later set the task of tracking down the Dragon Reborn's parents, when Ishamael returned and realized the Black Ajah's mistake in New Spring. Slayer tracked Tigraine to the Aiel, and found her husband later in the Blight, and killed him. But no one knew what had become of Tigraine/Shaiel or her child, and the trail grew cold.
As proof I offer that we KNOW the Dark One can move a soul from one body to another, we KNOW both Luc and Isam occupy the same body, we have never seen anyone identify Isam's body in the waking world, and who among us believes Janduin's death at the hands of his brother-in-law could be a coincidence?
While attributing the Dark One the power of Transmigration this early may seem a stretch, attributing the power to create Slayer to anyone else is even more of a stretch.
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2005-01-12
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
You've failed to discuss WHY Luc's soul wasn't removed when Isam's was placed in it. We don't see Halima sharing time with her body's former soul. We also see a need for souls in Thakan'dar, so it isn't like the ability to remove souls is dependent on a more-free Dark One.
Callandor: 2005-01-12
**Due to her role in the fall of Malkier, and of the potential importance of Isam as heir to the throne of Malkier, Isam's mother was spared, as was her son. She was kept alive to raise Isam, and he was raised in the Blight, under the Shadow.**
Malkier is destroyed very soon after Isam disappears -- by the Shadow. What's the point of having him for the throne?
Plus, with this, what is to stop Luc and his mom from being any different then the entire family that was awaiting to be turned into Fade blades in LoC? They weren't just left to be raised by the Dark One. Is the Dark One feeling lonely, and wants a family? ;-)
**There he saw his dedicated servant Isam fall, and saved him by placing his soul in the only human body nearby: Luc's.**
But the High passes are not "in a near radius" of Shayol Ghul.
**Luc's soul was not displaced though, and similar to the Fain-Mordeth combo, Luc and Isam came to terms with one another, and co-existed in the same body, merging their essences.**
Why? Why keep Luc in the picture? Why not scope him out like every other person who has had a soul shoved in their previous body by the Dark One?
Oatman: 2005-01-13
Once again I'll voice my objections.
There is no valid reason Isam or his mother would be spared. He cares about noone except as a means to an end. Even IF Isam had a claim to the throne of Malkier, I doubt many people would follow a man whose parents were the nations downfall and who was raised by the shadow.
If the DO could transmigrate souls this early, then why wouldn't he have transmigrated his fallen foresaken earlier?
However Slayer was created it was a unique situation, and shouldnt be pigeon holed into a transmigration gone wrong. It's like trying to shove a round block through a square hole.
Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-01-13
Let me try to address your concerns:
Souls are indeed used at Thakan'dar, and the Dark One appears to have always had the ability to remove souls as in the creation of Grey Men. They didn't just pop up when the seals weakened, they are a known quantity who have been around for a long time. So you appear to be correct that removal of a soul doesn't depend on his level of freedom.
What could be a constraint is distance from Shayol Ghul. Men are likely brought to Shayol Ghul by Myrrddraal to be made into Grey Men. All of the Forsaken we've seen switch bodies appear to have got their new ones at Shayol Ghul. Demandred's thoughts also reflect this when he thinks he can arrange for there to be no bodies next time Moridin dies. So the bodies they now inhabit had been cleansed of their former occupants' souls.
Is it absolutely necessary for a body to be cleansed before a new soul moves in? No. Mordeth was able to occupy Fain's body even though the soul hadn't been removed beforehand. I'd say it's preferable for it to be cleansed, or you end up with a slightly insane merged-soul agglomerate of the former two souls. I doubt the DO wants any other influence merging with Ishamael if he can help it.
So why did it happen to Luc and Isam? If there was a lack of suitable bodies (to quote Demandred), then the Dark One may have been limited in his options to save Isam. With healthy seals in this era, he may have had a time constraint in how long he could hold Isam's soul in waiting. So he did the only thing he could, he forced Isam into Luc's body, still nearing Shayol Ghul.
The urgency in doing this is that the Dark One recognizes Isam's importance. At this point there are no Forsaken to aid him, and Isam is as highly placed a Darkfriend as we've seen. Raised in the Blight, he's as good a servant as the DO can hope for, and as a potential heir to Malkier, he can be used as a lever to influence the Borderlands and topple them in later years.
To summarize: transmigration of souls by the Dark one was constrained at this time, due to intact seals. Isam was of value, and desperate measures were taken to ensure his survival, even at the risk of merging him with Luc.
Ashaman Grady: 2005-01-13
"You've failed to discuss WHY Luc's soul wasn't removed when Isam's was placed in it."
I don't know where, but I remember reading that after Tigrane's disappearance, Isam became despondant. I could imagine that, in his despair in the Blight, he was approached by Luc with an offer of revenge.
As to why Isam stuck around in the body, perhaps there is some power from having two souls in one body (such as Fain).
Perhaps Slayer's ability to enter T'AR is due to his dual soul. The scene in Winter's Heart where Slayer enters T'AR describes him as BECOMING Luc (or Isam, I forget which one).
Stilicho: 2005-01-13
Tamyrlin- Regarding the two soul, one body issue, isn't it possible that: 1) Luc was the only body available; 2) Luc was still alive; 3) the other transferred souls (like Halima) were placed in bodies of the recently deceased (thus no overcrowding of souls-the original occupant has departed); and 4) the DO has the ability (at least "near" Shayol Ghul) to force an extra soul/personality on board a living body. We do know that the revived forsaken are given whatever suitable body is available (Moridin just got lucky). This suggests that not any body will do, so using Luc may have been to only option to save a valuable servant (Isam).
Dorindha: 2005-01-13
Frenzy's brought up the only real obstacle to this theory, other than it not ruling out some other plausible way (and I believe we may find out more in the future). The thing I like most here is that it explains why we only see Luc's body in the real world, but both in TAR, which rules out a special timeshare arrangement with one part inhabiting only one place. That is one thing that has failed other ideas for me in the past.
So, generally, I like it, but can't get over the need for soul sharing, unless you can think of something. Maybe the DO wanted to keep Luc's knowledge (up to date info for undercover perhaps) for his servant.
Another thing that just occurred to me - why is Isam so special? What about HIM makes him worthy of a recarnation only otherwise seen for the forsaken.
Callandor: 2005-01-13
**Is it absolutely necessary for a body to be cleansed before a new soul moves in? No. Mordeth was able to occupy Fain's body even though the soul hadn't been removed beforehand.**
Ah, but we don't know if it's a requirement for the Dark One. Mordeth is more of a question of what the heck happened then Slayer (unless Mordeth is the Dark One... yes, that's a joke).
**At this point there are no Forsaken to aid him, and Isam is as highly placed a Darkfriend as we've seen. Raised in the Blight, he's as good a servant as the DO can hope for, and as a potential heir to Malkier, he can be used as a lever to influence the Borderlands and topple them in later years.**
1. Isam as a toddler/infant was a high-ranking Darkfriend? That's a crapy Shadow ranking then.
2. Heir to a dead nation that the Shadow destroyed -- how will the Dark One use that? Lan is known and has been known; Isam is figured to be dead for over 45 years. Who stands to have the good claim here?
Plus, yet again, WHY would the Dark One keep him alive? Heir to a throne? So what? Look at Darkfriend ranks to see how much the Shadow cares about nobles and thrones. Isam is a Fade blade in waiting -- why stop?
ImmDude123456: 2005-01-13
In WH chapter 22 Luc/Isam/Slayer in his PoV mentions:
"He had been given many, gifts but immunity to poison, or any other weapon, was not among them."
- note this is Luc specifically talking
Could these gifts he's recieved be from the DO? and if so were they recieved because of the Sharing of his body.
Another thing i noticed reading this is the book simply states:
"He became Isam."
Or
"He became Luc."
The book states this in a way that makes me personally believe that this change is voluntary.
The Isam-Luc change is as he steps out of TAR leaving no clues, BUT the Luc-Isam change is after he meets one of the forsaken in TAR. this leads me personnaly to believe that this change is totally voluntary.
Lastly, it would appear Luc has total control over the body when he has any this seems to show that Luc is going along voluntarily with the DO's plans.
Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-01-13
What's the point in keeping Isam for the throne? Because he can do what Lan didn't want to, unite the Borderlands and lead them where he desires. But if that doesn't fly for you, take it up with RJ. He's the one who made Isam survive. It happened. I'm just explaining why it might be so.
Why keep Luc in there? You're right that there's no good reason to, which leaves only the possibility that the DO HAD to keep Luc in there. Again, I'm offering an explanation for how and why it could have happened, since RJ obviously did make it happen.
Regarding soul-sharing Dorindha, I think Slayer works the same way Ordeith does. One unified mind, perhaps with a split personality, or whatever it is that RJ has shown us. We can't dispute that Slayer thinks of himself as two people. I think I've offered the best possible explanation of how he got that way.
As for the High Passes, I presume that Luc eventually made it to Shayol Ghul after dispatching Isam. That takes care of any proximity issues.
That's it for now...
terez: 2005-01-13
First, where is the evidence that the seals had been rendered fragile during the time of Isam's disappearance? Where is the evidence that they had been rendered fragile at any time before the broken seal was found within the Eye? It seems much more likely that Slayer is a creation of Ishmael. Unless I am missing something, the DO and the other twelve Forsaken have been imprisoned since the sealing, and Ishmael has not. Ba'alzamon, Moridin, Elan Morin Tedronai, whatever you want to call him. No one has mentioned contact with the DO during that time. Fain was "distilled" by Ba'alzamon.
Also, beside the fact that Malkier has fallen, and few would follow a leader who had betrayed Malkier in the first place, why would the Borderlanders follow Luc? Slayer only appears as Isam in TAR.
And last, Moridin got lucky? Perhaps he was rewarded with the best body available because of the extent of his service to the DO, which, regardless of his demise at the hands of Rand, is exemplary compared to any of the other Forsaken.
NargsBrood: 2005-01-14
The shadow has prophecies just as every other nation or people regarding the last battle. IE: one of rand's pet aes sedai is very ademant about Rand staying alive until the last battle for how can the DO defeat him? Also, the prophesies scribed on the walls of the prison in Fal Moran in GH done in Trolloc hand. I believe Luc/Isam takes part in those prophecies. Ive also always had the suspicion the the Aes Sedai who told Luc and Tigraine to leave the way they did was black ajah. She sent Tigraine to the waste to dispose of her and Luc to the blight according to some shadow prophecy. I have no proof for my thoughts but to me it makes as much sense as the last theory. We just dont have enough evidence.
Aiel Finn: 2005-01-14
I think that the reason that Isam and Luc were merged in that way is because, not only was Isam the highest DF at the time, if you couple the theory that he may be a corrupted wolfbrother with this, his having two souls would let him enter T'A'R in the flesh and remain alive in his body. This lets him do his amazing feats as an assasin because he can bring his body into T'A'R unlike a normal one soul non channeler.
Callandor: 2005-01-14
**Because he can do what Lan didn't want to, unite the Borderlands and lead them where he desires.**
No, he is not the Heir. Lan is. Lan is known, Lan is respected, Lan is a figure. What is Isam? A presumed dead infant of over 40 years whom no one knows of except in pity. Whose going to believe that he is the Heir to Malkier? Especially when Lan is alive.
**You're right that there's no good reason to, which leaves only the possibility that the DO HAD to keep Luc in there.**
No. You're automatically ignoring every other option by saying it had to be the Dark One, and he had to do this, this way. Since when has the Dark One been forced to do anything?
**As for the High Passes, I presume that Luc eventually made it to Shayol Ghul after dispatching Isam. That takes care of any proximity issues.**
Why? He had no idea what he was looking for, and as you said, the Dark One had a time limit (apparently....). So, Luc kills a perfectly good stanger (as far as we know), then races to Shayol Ghul, where he arrives in time, is not killed and soul purged, and the Dark One decided to throw Isam's soul into him.
Am I the only one that finds this unlikely?
Oatman: 2005-01-16
"I think I've offered the best possible explanation of how he got that way."
No.
What you've done is manipulated the creation of a unique character to fit into the mold of transmigration.
However Slayer was created, I believe it will be a situation unique to him, which hasnt yet been revealed yet. In my opinion that is the best possible explaination.
A lot of your "proof" for the theory is assumptions you've taken advantage of because they cannot yet be proven wrong, such as the DO's influence on the world during his time of creation, where and how Isam survived and lived until he either died or killed Luc, and why he was created in the first place.
Callandor: 2005-01-16
**The shadow has prophecies just as every other nation or people regarding the last battle. IE: one of rand's pet aes sedai is very ademant about Rand staying alive until the last battle for how can the DO defeat him?**
Are you implying that Elza has heard a prophecy that Rand will fail to the Dark One? Because I thought the obvious reason she thinks this is because she has been given Verin's nearly-Compulsion, which required the person to find their own reasons for accepting the orders. Verin's orders would obviously be for Rand to stay alive.
**Ive also always had the suspicion the the Aes Sedai who told Luc and Tigraine to leave the way they did was black ajah. She sent Tigraine to the waste to dispose of her and Luc to the blight according to some shadow prophecy. I have no proof for my thoughts but to me it makes as much sense as the last theory. We just dont have enough evidence.**
You mean Gitara, an Aes Sedai who had the Foretelling (the one that dropped dead after telling Moiraine and Siuan that Rand was born)? She's the last person in the world I would finger to be Black.
Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-01-17
Regarding Wolfbrothers and Ishamael's getting the best body: see the Tor web site where RJ has dismissed both ideas in print. Ishy got the body that was available, by chance, and Isam is not a corrupted wolfbrother.
Ishamael did not create Slayer, because he was trapped at the time. The BWB gives Ishy's first appearance after the Aiel War. Luc vanished in the Blight about a decade earlier. Unless Luc wandered the Blight alone and unmolested for ten years until Ishamael showed up, he was not Slayer's creator.
Of course, if Ishamael was Slayer's creator, you are in essence saying that Ishamael has the power to merge two souls in one body. If he can displace souls in that fashion, what would stop him from doing his own transmigrations or anything else?
Who else but the Dark One can really manipulate souls in this manner?
Callandor, I invite YOU to explain why Isam is still alive, since he's no more than Fade-blade matertial in your eyes. You're very good at nit-picking details without addressing the question of who created Slayer. Who did it?
Stilicho: 2005-01-17
Terez: side note, but Moridin DID get lucky in receiving a young, healthy, handsome, powerful body. It says so right in Moridin's POV when RJ lets us know about the need for and occasional scarcity of "suitable" bodies.
a dragonburned fool: 2005-01-18
I'm with GLotD here. Until now the transmigration theory is the only known to me plausible explanation of how Slayer could be created. Maybe the only other alternative would be that Isam did the transmigration standalone using a technique similar to that of Mordeth, but that is also a transmigration.
About the difficulty with the distance between the High Passes and the Pit of Doom: Actually we don't know for sure that DO is able to perform the task of transmigration only in Shayol Ghul, it's only a likely suggestion. Yes - Aran'gar and Osan'gar became their bodies at Shayol Ghul, at least they are in Shayol Ghul region soon after the transmigration even if the Pit of Doom was not specifically mentioned, (we don't know anything about Cyndane though even if it's likely her case is not different from the 'gars), and some rites are traditionally performed in the Pit of Doom. But it is because DO can do his work only there, or because DO's work is only comparatively more effectlive there, or because just it is more convenient place for the Chosen and the appearance of the rite - that is something we just don't know. We know that the Bore is everywhere in the world and that Shayol Ghul is only a place where the Bore can be sensed by world's insiders. Even Sealed, DO can sense some human actions and react to them all over the world - the evidence here is the effect of naming DO's true name. Apparently DO shows much more effect and control in the Shayol Ghul and even much more in the Pit of Doom, but he has also a degree of control far away form Shayol Ghul. And he has apparently more control over the territories in the Blight than over teritories outside it. So it will be plausible to suppose, that DO's abilities to affect the world have different degree and strenght in different zones, but do not simply cease to exist outside the Pit of Doom.
Transmigration seems to be a very advanced task and it leads to the conclusion that it will need a high level of control, but actually we do not know enough to conclude for sure. It is quite probable that the transmigration is not so impossible to be done anywhere, but the Pit of Doom is needed to make it with the acceptable degree of quality. So that outside Shayol Ghul it would be possible to transmigrate somebody but with some limitations making the whole proces not allways profitable. The presence of Luc in the Slayer's soul is IMO a serious flaw for the transmigration, and maybe it was done so only because DO was unable to make it otherwise from so far range. However High Passes are part of the inner Blight (i.e. there is Blight of lesser quality than the Passes) i.e. it's a DO's territory in greater degree than most other areas, so it is not so hopeless zone there.
I'll suggest that the Pit of Doom is absolutely necessary only in tha cases when for the rite it is necessary the active taking part of a living person (because for sure we know about Shayol Ghul's essential difference from the other world, only that people can sense the Bore from there (while DO can sense it from anywhere). So if a thread-owner is needed to do something in response to DO while being alive, the Pit of Doom will be needed. But the case with just killed DO's pet is hardly this kind of situation. A just killed soul is no more part of the world's pattern and has also not necessary the limitations to sense the Bore. But we know that the Greymen are not just victims, but people stupid enough to agree giving their bodies, i.e. DO needs their active agreement for to make a greyman. If it's true for greymen, so it's very likely also for a body cleared form a soul and ready for a new transmigration. The former owner of the body would in that case have to state his agreement (with free will or after "persuasion", but at least actively performing some action towards DO), and Pit of Doom could be needed for that. So a hypothesis: Because Isam's transmigration took place not in Shayol Ghul, DO was unable to clear Luc's body from Luc's soul, and that was a flaw, but the distance was not obstacle for the transmigration itself.
About the problem why DO spared the life of baby Isam. I don't believe that Isam would be usable as a future pretendent for a throne. The Shadow has enough high-ranking Darkfriends. Even so such possibility in the future could move Ishamael to spare this life instead of using it not so usefull as Trolloc food. But I suppose the truth would be otherwise: Isam can have prophecied significance.
We know that the Shadow has it's Dark Prophecies. And we know that at least one Dark Prophecy specifically mentions the meeting of Luc and Isam. Until now it is not known why Slayer has place in this particular prophecy. But having in mind that this prophecy is iterating in annouing multiplity that the Great Lord is to come soon, the most likely main meaning of the whole prophecy is to list the omens and preprequisities of the DO to come back. In that case Isam will be very interesting for the Shadow.
We know that the Shadow sometime shows specific interest about partcular humans without visible significance of them. So it is usual for Darkhounds to pass known fighters for the Light and to kill a known to nobody pregnant woman. This affiliation of Darkhounds to particular pregnant women seems too much like the task to kill a person even before person's birth, and that means that the Shadow would have prophecy about the significance of the child to be born. This is an indication that the Shadow can recognize in a child somebody with great significance in the future.
Oatman: 2005-01-18
Luc made it to Shayol Ghul now?
Lets see, an army of Malkieri only made it to the Mountains of Doom before being stopped, yet one inexperienced young man made it by himself? Extremely doubtful.
Jiana: 2005-01-20
I don't profess to be an expert on astral projection or transmigration, but I do have this to add: I don't think a soul can possess a body that is already dead, no matter how recently dead, and make it live again. A certain "spark" is necessary for the soul to be able to "live" in the body. That spark resides in the "residual soul" of a person. So how is it possible for a soul to possess a living body at all? If the soul is strong enough, it can overwhelm the existing soul within the body and "take over," thereby pushing the first soul so deep down that it can't get out or let its presence be known. This is easier to accomplish with people who have weak personalities or people who have consented to the "possession." If a person is strong-willed, however, and did not consent, a battle for the body ensues, and sometimes the would-be possessor is driven out, and sometimes not. For an example (not saying this is what happend, just a what-if), let's say Isam was killed, and immediately tried to go into Luc's body to possess it. (We'll leave the question of "why" to later) We all know that most of the descendants of Ishara have a very strong will, so Luc wouldn't have been possessed that easily. He fought. Now Isam's soul would probably also have been strong enough to overcome Luc's, to the point where Isam could possess the body... but NOT strong enough to push Luc way down to the depths and thereby allow Isam to have complete control. When this happens, the invading soul is always aware of the presence and thoughts of the "original" soul, and vice versa. Could be Isam and Luc made promises to one another regarding revenge on various people for various reasons, and thereby came to terms with their new situation. Over time, Luc began to actually LIKE Isam, and vice versa, and that's how it would be possible for their "becoming" one another to be voluntary. Now I hope I didn't confuse anyone with this, 'cause I sure succeeded in confusing myself! :)
Dark wanderer: 2005-01-20
Remember what birgitte told perrin in TAR, that slayers form was new but his evil was anciet.FOH
And the fact that slayer entered the tower og ghenjei, something that would normaly kill a person.
So maybe there is more to his/their story than just that the dark one put to souls in one body.
Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-01-20
Thx ADF, for coming to my rescue.
Oatman, I laugh. Jain Farstrider was a lone man, who made it to Shayol Ghul. So there is a precedent. Nyah! :)
Callandor: 2005-01-21
**Unless Luc wandered the Blight alone and unmolested for ten years until Ishamael showed up, he was not Slayer's creator.**
Ah, but apparently he can get to Shayol Ghul in perfect working order to have a freaky form of transmigration performed on him (when last we heard he was in the High Passes).
**Who else but the Dark One can really manipulate souls in this manner?**
Mordeth came the closest to the characteristics. But I would say the Creator could, but wouldn't of course ;).
**Callandor, I invite YOU to explain why Isam is still alive, since he's no more than Fade-blade matertial in your eyes. You're very good at nit-picking details without addressing the question of who created Slayer. Who did it?**
I don't have one. Where's the big shocker in this? I feel there isn't enough information to even begin to guess at it.
Slayer is a perfectly unique being. There is not one other person in the entire WoT universe that we know of that is like him. The closest we can come with an analogy, is Padan Fain, and that is for from perfect.
The best that we have is: he was transmigrated, for whatever reason, and it messed up either on purpose or by accident.
Forgive me for not jumping on the bandwagon and overlooking the huge gaps in the theory.
1. With all we have seen of the Dark policies for human life, there is no reason to keep Isam alive other then for the time to turn him into a Fade-blade.
2. However Isam grew up, and wherever he got his culture, he was apparently killed in the High Passes by Luc. The Dark One's power is of course quite limited at the time and is no where near what it is even by the end of The Eye of the World, yet supposedly he can snatch a soul (of a person who was originally not a Darkfriend as far as we know), and keep it for transmigration.
3. The last mention we have of Luc was him in the High Passes. Where is he getting all the way to Shayol Ghul to be the guinea pig in this, when who knows how many armies and raiders have tried to get there over history?
The thing about this is that because Slayer is so unique it requires so much more information to get some idea of what happened other then "Oh, something else happened, got messed up, and there he is." Heck as far as we know, the Dark One's form of transmigration ~can't~ mess up.
Aiel Finn: 2005-01-21
They didn't say Luc got to SG. He only got to the high passes where he fought with Isam.
That was a great theory. It would perfectly explain why the souls are both in the Slayer body. Also, I think that the Blight is an erosion in the pattern. A place where the DO is using his influence to pick apart the pattern from the weak spot at SG.
Callandor: 2005-01-21
**Jain Farstrider was a lone man, who made it to Shayol Ghul. So there is a precedent. Nyah! :)**
Interesting....
**TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: GLOSSARY
Farstrider, Jain (JAY-ihn): A hero of the northern lands who journeyed to many lands and had many adventures; the author of several books, as well as being the subject of books and stories. He vanished in 981 NE, after returning from a trip into the Great Blight which some said had taken him all the way to Shayol Ghul.**
That's what I have. Plus, if anything Farstrider might have been ~taken~ to Shayol Ghul, because of Ishamael.
Oatman: 2005-01-23
True, Jain Farstrider may have made it to SG. Of course it could just be a story, we know how those can get blown out of proportion in the world of WoT. Second JF was experienced in the blight, had been fighting trollocks and myrdraal and other shadowspawn since he was old enough to. Luc, on the other hand, had led a cushy life in a palace. It must've been some luck to make it all the way to the SG.
Also, why would he want to go to SG int the first place? Its pretty much a suicide mission, with very little to gain from it.
Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-01-24
Except that Ishy returned in.... 983 NE.
I think Jain and Luc were both fairly remarkable men, so if one could make it. why not the other? And just to get the chronology right, Luc vanished up there in 971 NE, ten years before Jain Farstrider did. Maybe Jain was searching for him?
Callandor: 2005-01-25
**Maybe Jain was searching for him?**
1. Luc is an Andoran noble; Jain is a Borderlander.
2. Luc was remarked as dead by everyone, and 10 years after he disappeared. Why even believe he's alive?
Aiel Finn: 2005-01-26
One strange thing, could Luc have had the channeling gene? In WH, when Slayer kills the old couple in Far Madding, Luc, not Isam comments that he would enjoy killing his cousin and the wench. I think Luc might have been turned by the 13+13.
Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-01-26
I don't really care why Jain went. So long as it is widely agreed that:
A lone non-channeling man can make it to Shayol Ghul.
That being said, I think it's feasible that after killing Isam, Luc figured he might as well keep on trekking right to Shayol Ghul. When he got there, that's when the Dark One crammed Isam into his body.
Zenya Sedai: 2005-01-27
Slayer has access to Finnland through the Tower of Ghenjei, He is able to get in and out of Finnland somehow.
Why can he do this?
Could he have been made what he is by the finns?
Callandor: 2005-01-28
**I don't really care why Jain went. So long as it is widely agreed that:
A lone non-channeling man can make it to Shayol Ghul.**
I'll point out, yet again, that it is only said he got to Shayol Ghul, and things being said by people are very commonly expanded.
**That being said, I think it's feasible that after killing Isam, Luc figured he might as well keep on trekking right to Shayol Ghul. When he got there, that's when the Dark One crammed Isam into his body.**
Why on earth would he figure "Hey, I was just attacked by a lone nut, let's go see the Dark One!"?
Aiel Finn: 2005-01-28
What if Slayer's **apparent** (he may have just jumped away in T'A'R to fool Perrin) access to Finnland is another side effect of his having two souls. He is able to be in both T'A'R and the waking world at the same time, he doesn't seem to be a channeler and can still enter and leave T'A'R in the flesh. If T'A'R touches all worlds, he may be able to use this to access Finnland.
Jiana: 2005-01-28
While all we can do at this point is speculate, I do like Zenya's idea. Is it possible that he WAS made what he was by the finns? But we don't know how Isam would've gotten into the finns' world in the first place. But let's say he did, and he wished for immortality, and the way the finns granted that wish was to confine him to TAR. That still doesn't explain how Luc figures into it. I would be interested to hear any ideas on that.
Oatman: 2005-01-30
I think the key to Slayers creation is in how the deceased half died. I dont think it ever mentions a direct fight between Luc and Isam in the books, or even that they met each other, however I havent read the series in a while, a quote would be helpful.
Aiel Finn: 2005-01-31
If Isam was confined to T'A'R that may explain why he ended up merged with Luc. In T'A'R one has quite a few interesting powers involving the soul. Isam may have brought Luc to T'A'R in the flesh, and merged with him there so he could leave. Remeber how Moggy says that she could make Nyn into something else whenever she was in T'A'R, clearly there is a lot one can do. I think that the soul merging is one of the "evil things" that can happen if you enter T'A'R in the flesh.
cid ayrbourne: 2005-02-01
**In T'A'R one has quite a few interesting powers involving the soul. Isam may have brought Luc to T'A'R in the flesh, and merged with him there so he could leave.**
Accutually, this is a fair possiblity (though I don't think it was Isam who brought Luc into TAR in the flesh). Consider Rand's battle with Rahvin in TAR - Rand was there in the flesh, and Rahvin tried to make Rand disappear. Since he was there in the flesh, wouldn't Rand have disappeared for good?
So if, by some means, Luc was in TAR in the flesh and he and Isam were fused into one body? Isam wouldn't even have necessarily died for this theory to work, either. In Far Madding, Isam becomes Luc as he steps out of TAR, but he thinks it's appropriate - implying that he didn't HAVE to become Luc to leave, it was just appropriate that he did.
The Who and the Why still need a better explaination, but this seems a very plausable How - certainly better than a 'soul-switch gone bad'.
Stilicho: 2005-02-02
Was Ishy free on his latest 40 year cycle when Luc and Isam merged? Callandor, you've nailed the timeline down in another thread, what's the answer? Hypothesis: could Ishy have been thinking (insanely) that he was the Do, or simply imitating his betters, and tried to do his own transmigration thing with Isam and ended up with the Slayer combo instead. I have no evidence, just a thought. Can anyone add to this?
Callandor: 2005-02-02
**Was Ishy free on his latest 40 year cycle when Luc and Isam merged?**
Earliest orders from any Dark agent were in 983 NE; Luc disappeared a little bit after the Aiel War (want to say 973 NE but don't quote me on it ;)). So unless things were delayed, it's unlikely Ishamael had a part.
a dragonburned fool: 2005-02-03
I thought I poster this thing before a week, but apparently it was not sent. Now, appologozing for it being so late, I post the same thing again.
Callandor, no matter would we have an explanation why Slayer is left alive or not, the sparing of Slayer's life is an evidence, that a child captured by Shadowspawn doesn't in every case become Fadeblade soul. When GLotD asked you for explanation, he asked you actually wether you can find out a way for both Isam been kept alive and everybody captured and brought to Shayol Ghul becoming Fade-blade (a rhetorical question, because neither you nor anybody else could find such explanation of course).
But there is nothing strange that a prisoner to Shayol Ghul comes not to the Forges. If there were only Trollocs in the Blight, so everybody would become Trolloc's food. But there are creatures more powerful than Trollocs and with control over Trollocs, who have another needs - the said Takhandar Blades. Nobody except the Fades is depending on the Blades, and everybody else who would care about these blades would actually care for Fades. Now there is another being, more powerful than all myrddraals together and in full control over Myrddraals, who doesn't need personally the Fade-blades, and who could use every prisoner of Shayol Ghul for any purpose he would like without asking the Myrddraal. He could have reason or he could have no reason to spare Isam's life, but only thing needed for that is Ishamael to say a word, and even the most critical shortage of Fade-blades would not change that.
And Ishamael's policy of human life has the very significant tendency to be dependent of Ishamael's attempt to turn some key persons to the Shadow, if possible willingly. If Ishamael wants to use somebody, he will spare his life - a perfect reason to do it. If he has a prophecy about Isam (and because Isam is present in a Dark prophecy about the DO's return, it is very likely that such prophecy existed also earlier), he will have excellent motivation to spare Isam's life.
Jiana,
Your points about transmigration of a soul in a soul-inhabited body are valid, but that is not the only case. There are living bodies completely cleansed from the inborn souls - such are the Grey Men and the servants Ishamael/Moridin uses at Shayol Ghul. When transmigrating Forsaken the Shadow uses most likely such bodies completely cleansed of souls, but physiologically still completely alive.
Zenya,
For 'Finns to create Slayer, first Luc and Isam must meet in the realm of Finns. According to the Dark prophecy they met in the "High Passes" (almost apparently in the Mountains of Dhoom), far from all entrances to Finnland, and in these Passes it seems that one of them was killed. If the victim's ghost was able to visit Finnland together with the survivor, Finns maybe could make something, but if this ghost was able for such a visit, it would be a really very special ghost already before to visit Finns.
But if Your suggestion is that Isam, before to meet Luc, had visited Finns and they gave him some unusual advantage that helped him to do what he did for to create Slayer.... it's an idea to think about.
Wompat: 2005-08-22
i've read most of this thread but got tired of hearing the same arguments over and over, then i noticed that no one brought this up...
...part of the debate is why would the DO leave Luc's soul in his body (assuming it was the DO who transmigrated Isam). we know Gitara Moroso (not a DF) sent Tigraine to the waste and then Luc to the Blight...
...i propose that after Tigraine's disappearence, Luc, being First Prince of the Sword, reacted much like Gwain and Galad when they learned of Elayne's second disappearance and all the danger Suian's put her in. So Luc goes to Gitara, who is known to have spoken with Tigraine just prior to her leaving, and flips out. Gitara gives him the old Aes Sedai run around, during which she tells of the fortelling blah blah blah. Luc still aint happy, and then Gitara sends him into the blight to fullfill part of the prophecy/foretelling. what she doesn't count on, however, is that Luc becomes a Darkfriend.
Afterall, knowing how Andoran princes are, Luc is so pissed off at the Aes Sedai, when he tries to get answers they tell him that they sent her away in order to stop the DO, and furthermore, he also has a part to play, that he abandons the Light. It is as good a reason as any other that we are given...
... so what i'm trying to say is maybe the DO wanted Luc's soul to remain in his body...
...Also, he killed Isam, a Borderland warrior, which means Luc could handle himself in a fight, or at the least he was better than Isam. Maybe he did go to Shayol Ghul, but not because he thought "i just got attacked by a nut, ill go pay the DO a visit", but rather because he wanted to ask the DO to help him get revenge on the AS. as a punishment to Isam he's got to share a body with Luc. I assume the double soul in a body has benefits, because of Slayer's POV where he mentions being given gifts, and because the only other person with two souls, Fain, whose situation is not even comparable (both situations are UNIQUE), has gained abilities since his merging with mordeth. That is the only reason that Isam is still around, he was the only soul available to grant Luc's request. but why would the DO grant a request to a mere DF?
-potential tool, Channelers are not necessarily the top of the foodchain in the DF heirarchy
-create something new, people cant fight it if they dont know what it is
-a way to deal with people whose committments to the Dark have wavered.
-Slayer is a nearly perfect assassin...
p.s. I saw somebody else mention the following and it seemed a plausible explanation so thought i would throw my support behind it.
Slayer can enter finnland, and we know that in the past the Tower of Ghenji was more commonly known than it is now. maybe Luc went there after killing Isam and made the request to the foxes. "Aes Sedai pissed me off, wont tell me where my sis is, can u help me get revenge?" this of course is a question touching the shadow and may be a dire consequence, or they may have granted the request by adding isam's soul to his body, though there is no reason for us to suspect they have taht kind of power
Stilicho: 2005-08-29
The more I try to figure out plausible explanations for the creation of Slayer, the tougher it it gets. I still think GLOTD's original theory is possible, but the more I consider Slayer's abilities in T'A'R and his connections with the TOG, the more I wonder whether his unique situation came about as a result of a wish gon awry, or as a result of something that happened in T'A'R'. Callandor: you've done a good job of pointing out weak points in GLOTD's theory, but I'm unclear on what you consider to be the most likely explanation. Or are you just waiting to RAFO?
Ozymandias: 2005-08-29
Another question here. Who is the channeler, Luc or Isam? I guess Luc is the more likely candidate, given his coming from a line of channelers, however weak. But we know he HAS to be able to channel to enter T'A'R in the flesh, and stuff, and yet we never see any other indication of channeling (unless you believe Slayer killed Asmodean, in which case channeling is almost necessary).
JakOShadows: 2005-08-29
Before I start making point I just wanted to say I didn't read a lot of the replies so sorry if I repeat. I really don't agree with the original theory. I don't think he would use that body as a last resort. And I always attributed his abilities in teleranrhiod as wolfbrother characteristics. But if Isam or Luc could channel then it would make sense why he combined them, but it doesn't seem like he's used for that purpose. It seems to me he used more for cloak and dagger type stuff, killings in the night, and not up front killing like killing Asmodean. I'll have to see if I can find insight into his purpose, besides him being at the LB.
Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-08-29
I doubt either can channel, since he doesn't seem to channel at any time. His powers are most similar to Aiel Dreamwalkers. But still not exactly identical. Whatever Slayer has, is unique I think, and not dependent upon a channeler's abilities.
Anubis: 2005-08-30
The Luc Isam sounds like a TAR possession following death. Maybe Luc wasnt evil, but Isam was, and Luc killed Isam (one did die, but both still live). Then Isam possessed Luc using the Dark Ones power and turned him Evil, like with the 13/13. I think then Luc/Isam swore to the DO and now serves him. He will, for some reason, be crucial in the last battle. Maybe Lan kills him.
Callandor: 2005-08-30
**Callandor: you've done a good job of pointing out weak points in GLOTD's theory, but I'm unclear on what you consider to be the most likely explanation. Or are you just waiting to RAFO?**
It's by far the most likely option -- but it still has more holes in it than swiss cheese, and only favored over others because those other options are like targets after 2 months at a shooting range.
More than likely, Slayer is the bi-product of transmigration; however there are huge gaping problems with even that generic premise.
**But we know he HAS to be able to channel to enter T'A'R in the flesh, and stuff, and yet we never see any other indication of channeling (unless you believe Slayer killed Asmodean, in which case channeling is almost necessary).**
Slayer cannot channel at all. RJ has cleared this up:
**Slayer: Can't channel. He has certain "gifts" granted to him by the DO, but can't channel either the OP or the TP.**
Plus, even Slayer says that he cannot enter tel'aran'rhiod like the Forsaken can, so it's either dreaming into it or channeling or neither.
lurk: 2005-08-31
**Was Ishy free on his latest 40 year cycle when Luc and Isam merged?**
** Earliest orders from any Dark agent were in 983 NE; Luc disappeared a little bit after the Aiel War (want to say 973 NE but don't quote me on it ;)). So unless things were delayed, it's unlikely Ishamael had a part. **
I don't have a quote but isn't is mentioned somewhere in a POV from moridin that he as ishamael had a hand in getting the remains of hawkwings army across the aryth ocean, waiting for them to return and add to the chaos. He specifically askes himself how much the great lord has known in advance.
This would mean that ishy was long free to influence the world. SO he could have had a hand in getting Luc or Isam coming to shayol Gul and the merging of them in one body.
Could it be that Luc killed Isam, released his soul for the dark one to grab and somehow Luc was weak enough (mortally injured) to not be able to stop the merger of Isams soul into his body? And maybe it is enough for a soul to be touched by the dark one to become corrupt (i.e. the person with that soul automatically is a darkfriend)
JakOShadows: 2005-09-01
lurk: I do think you have the right idea, but I always thought that you had to be at least a dark friend to have your soul transmigrated. Without that connection to the DO, it wouldn't be possible(at least that was the general agreement). Now the guy that died could have been connected to the DO and the other was weakened, but it would be a stretch still. And I think the BWB has some information about Malkier too, and its fall which this involves. I'm at college so I don't have the book with me.
Jumai: 2005-09-01
I skimmed, but I didn't see any discussion about:
1)how Slayer can choose which body he wants
2)how Slayer can get into and out of TAR unaided
Also, as others have said, WHY. RJ says the DO's impressions of the world are often coloured by the reports he recieves from the Forsaken (such as his unwillingness to value Randland people as highly as AOL people) so while the benefits of an assassin who doesn't alert people by channeling may be obvious to US, they'd I think they'd be less important to the DO particularly in light of his access to soulless.
Callandor: 2005-09-01
**I don't have a quote but isn't is mentioned somewhere in a POV from moridin that he as ishamael had a hand in getting the remains of hawkwings army across the aryth ocean, waiting for them to return and add to the chaos. He specifically askes himself how much the great lord has known in advance.**
1. Yes, Ishamael, during one of his free periods of the Bore and posing as Hawkwing's advisor, sent what would eventually become the people of Seanchan to Seanchan.
2. It was Demandred that remarked that he wondered how much the Dark One has known in advance.
**This would mean that ishy was long free to influence the world. SO he could have had a hand in getting Luc or Isam coming to shayol Gul and the merging of them in one body.**
Again, Ishamael was freed in a cycle of 40 years to roughly every 1000. This is how he was freed in the Trolloc Wars, the War of the Hundred Years, and present. Earliest indication of Ishamael being freed was in 983 NE -- Luc disappeared in 971 NE. 12 years before Ishamael was freed.
**Could it be that Luc killed Isam, released his soul for the dark one to grab and somehow Luc was weak enough (mortally injured) to not be able to stop the merger of Isams soul into his body?**
Two things wrong with that:
1. We've only seen the Dark One transmigrate channelers.
2. We've only had the implication that transmigration is done at Shayol Ghul.
**I do think you have the right idea, but I always thought that you had to be at least a dark friend to have your soul transmigrated.**
Far more than a Darkfriend. The only people we know to be transmigrated have three things in common:
1. They pledged their souls to the Dark One in the Pit of Doom.
2. They all had black cords.
3. They were all channelers.
It takes a heck of a lot to get that high in the Shadow chain of command.
**Also, as others have said, WHY.**
Exactly. Why on earth would the Dark One, first of all, keep Isam alive? Isam was a child when he was taken, and would've had to be raised in the Blight. We've seen what the Shadow does to captives -- they turn them into Fade blades. Men, women, and children. The Shadow does not care if you're a noble or a peasent.
Second, why on earth, presumably if the Dark One kepy Isam alive for whatever reason, would he "transmigrate" Isam into Luc?
JakOShadows: 2005-09-02
Jumai:
I really don't know how he gets in and out of T'A'R, but I always thought it was not like normal dreamers. I believe RJ said he has special abilities. And as far as I know he only has one body, but when he goes to t'a'r he choose whichever one he wants. It never seemed to me he changed bodies, but whichever personality he uses has different abilities.
lurk: 2005-09-02
Jack O Shadows,
I remember a quote from Ishamael i think where he claims that the the Lord of the GRAVE (my emphasis) can get a hold on souls. Hence his name. But I believe that to be a lie except that I also believe it likely that in the proximity of shayol Ghul, where the dark ones touch is strong, this grabbing a soul could be a posibility
lurk: 2005-09-04
"Two things wrong with that:
1. We've only seen the Dark One transmigrate channelers.
2. We've only had the implication that transmigration is done at Shayol Ghul."
Callandor thanks about the cycle but about the transmigration. Isam was brought to the shadow at a very young age. So he could have been a high ranking darkfriend, probably one of the highest non channelers. So in my opinion his soul is eligeble for transmigration. Especially considering in the being the dark one transfomred him in. The shadows assasin. That is pretty high ranking for me.
Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-09-06
Callandor, I find your logic to be the same as stating "the President of the US has only ever been a man, therefore only men can become president."
There are two lines of thought in RJ's world, those who believe if you walk in the Light, then you're safe (99%, according to the BWB), and those darkfriends (1%) who believe that the dead belong to the GLotD. One of these factions must be wrong for the other to be right. Either the Darkfriends are severly deluded, or the Light-walkers are clueless. To maintain the belief that the villains are dangerous, I'll stick with the Darkfriends.
Callandor: 2005-09-07
**Callandor thanks about the cycle but about the transmigration. Isam was brought to the shadow at a very young age. So he could have been a high ranking darkfriend, probably one of the highest non channelers. So in my opinion his soul is eligeble for transmigration.**
More than likely he would be a high ranking Darkfriend, but again, the souls we've seen transmigrated, are channelers. We have no evidence at all that the Dark One can transmigrate anyone other than those sworn to him, and no evidence that he can transmigrate anything but channelers.
By the way, about the transmigration away from the Pit of Doom:
**Q: Umm, we were wondering if you had to take someone down into the PoD to make them into a Grey Man, you know, 'cause it seems so similar to mind trapping someone.
A: Yes...at least that's the way I've always thought of it. It's not easy to remove someone's soul.**
I'd call it impossible ;).