ature of the Dark One; real-world-religions
by moriarty: 2003-10-25 | Not yet rated
There are some things that strike me as odd when thinking about the set-up of the Wheel of Time (that is, the in-book-concept of it).
The Creator created (hence the name) the Wheel of Time, imprisoned the DO (either while he was doing it or by doing it), and has not appeared in any obvious way since then.
All right.
The Dark One either existed before the Pattern was created or was created at the same instant, being instantly imprisoned, and has appeared in VERY OBVIOUS WAYS at least since the drilling of the bore in the Age of Legends.
Now there's what I don't exactly get: What is the Dark One?
While reading the first few books, I was under the general impression that the Dark One was just a kind of symbolic face people put on all things evil. At least on all things EVIL, as there surely have always been people who were mean or bad or evil without being actually Darkfriends.
But then... then there is the voice of the DO actually talking to the Forsaken/Chosen at Shayol Ghul. And I don't think that's just the Forsaken's minds putting words to the perceived will of the DO. It sounds quite like there is an actual scheming mind behind that voice.
Now what is the DO?
It appears to me there are two possibilities.
1) The DO is just a name put to everything evil. Everyone has something of the DO in himself, just as everyone has something of the Creator in himself. "Giving your soul to the shadow" only means that you listen to your evil side more than to your good side. Kind of like in "Star Wars", being evil reveals some powers in you, and being good reveals others, some of which are mutually exclusive - if you are too far to either side, you have no access to the powers of the other side. Hence the highest (best? worst?) of the Chosen/Forsaken can use the True Power (and might even lose the ability to touch the True Source - but even though I like that explanation for the saa-black-eyes, it remains to be proven)
2) The DO is a vastly powerful AND sentient being. He schemes, plots and manipulates. The voice at SG is actually his, and maybe he even manifests himself in Shaidar Haran at times, now that the patch in his prison wall thins.
If 1) is true: Was there no evil in the AoL? Of course, that is what is generally believed. Maybe there was even nothing bad at all? We have no detailed and confirmed report from that time. Why does the DO, being a concept instead of an entity, speak?
If 2) is true: Does that mean the DO can be destroyed? I cannot bring myself to believe that. And was he created by the Creator?
As to what is true: I believe that every important aspect in the Books is a carefully twisted, stretched and re-colored version of the beliefs and stories in our "real" world.
The first creational theory which comes to my mind is the christian bible. Okay, we have a creator there, but the "evil one" shows up much later - and he is one of the messengers of the creator, who grows jealous and is kicked out. Now the WoT Creator doesn't have Angels. Or does he? That is probably not it. Now I need your help: Which other religions have creation-theories that are closer to the WoT and could help shed some light on the nature of the DO? Because if my theory 1) is true - who is speaking? We already had one DO-impostor running around - could there be another one?
I'm new here, and this is my first post. I hope there are some who find this train of thought worth a ride ;)
You cannot rate theories without first logging in. Please
log in.
1
Tamyrlin: 2003-11-03
I don't have any good answers, but I do want to make one point and then hear what everyone else has to say. There was "evil" in the AOL before the DO was released, just not the quantity that is experienced now under his influence. There were criminals that were punished (oath rod). How that will affect our discussion here, I don't know, but we know that there are souls connected to the Pattern that are woven into the world, but it doesn't appear that any "advancement" is available, as in, these souls get recycled, reincarnated, and we are not told that the recycling ever ends. So, what part do choices, evil, and reincarnation play in the philosophical underpinnings of the Wheel of Time, and how are we to understand a sentient being with his own power source that is imprisoned by another sentient being? Just some questions.
2
Murrin: 2003-11-03
I believe in the second interpretation of the Dark One. He is a sentient being of evil that was imprisoned by the good figure - the Creator.
The problem is that his prison, while not part of the Pattern, is still *within* the Pattern. There was a thinning of the Pattern around where it contained this powerful being, which is why Mierin was able to detect his power - and it was also why his prison could be punctured, allowing him to affect the Pattern his prison is part of. The Creator is outside the Pattern, outside his creation, outside the Wheel, so can do little, but the design of the Wheel contains the creators will and guides the threads in such a way that they resist the changes the DO attempts to bring about - that is why the DO cannot free himself until he 'slays the Great Serpent and breaks the Wheel of Time'. The way these control measures come about is through ta'veren - the greater the DO's influence, the stronger the ta'veren to correct the Pattern.
The DO, being outside the Pattern itself, cannot be harmed or destroyed by a person within the Pattern, and it would seem that the Creator himself has insufficient power to destroy him utterly (perhaps insert metaphor about balance and necessity for evil for good to exist here), so all that can be done is to affect his influence on the Pattern - you can block the hole in his prison, open it, fix it, take back control of things he is manipulating, even talk to him, but you cannot do anything to harm the being itself.
3
Callandor: 2003-11-03
**Now what is the DO?**
You asked; now recieve:
**Martin Reznick asks: How was the Dark One created, i.e. is he a fallen angel, an inherent part of the universe, etc.?
Robert Jordan: I envision the Dark One as being the dark counterpart, the dark balance if you will, to the creator carrying on the theme, the ying yang, light dark, necessity of balance theme that has run through the books it's somewhat manichian i know, but I think it works.**
Ta-da.
4
Rand-althor: 2003-11-03
OK here's my opinion on the DO. This is really just one big metaphor, so bear with me. I see the creator as a weaver, setting the weaving of the pattern in motion, and the DO as like the cat beside him. The cat gets caught in the 'weave' and tries to get out, tangling itslef further untill it finally breaks the threads and escapes.
5
a dragonburned fool: 2003-11-06
The most similar to Creator/DO images realworld religious concept if to be found in ancient Persian religions - Avesta, Mazdeism, Zurvanism. There is good creator and his evil enemy is supposed as strong as Him. In Zurvanism they are twins, equal in power, rights and so on; in the other versions (Son, Emanation, Shadow...) not so equal but much closer then in any other religion known to me and in all cased having much from the creator's nature. I don't know RJ mentioning this. Once he's referring some dualistic heresies in the christian world (I think they are the Manichean, who are influenced by Old Persian, and some sects derivativ from them as Bogomils, Kathars, Albigoan), but the problem with them is they believe the Satan is the one who created the world and the God trying to resque the souls imprisoned there... So, I realy don't understand what RJ used, what not. But whatever it is, it's not likely for me RJ using DO's personality as metaphor, DO is sentient being, he's out of the world (and therefore can not been destroyed) and he take part in this wourld, he can "touch" it and he can infect it's mechanism. There was evil before the Bore, at least because it's not the first time a 2'nd Age comes and everything DO done has it's consequences, creating another consequences, all of them having DO's mark in it.
6
Eelfinn Ty: 2003-11-11
Not all evil comes from the DO (Shadar Logoth), so there was probably evil durring the AOL. I'm not sure where this evil stems from but its not the DO. Is'n Fain also outside the pattern? If he is, then was the DO created before the pattern was, or are there other ways to get outside?
7
Cor Shan: 2003-11-11
How is that said:
Fain is outside the Pattern (-'s will)
-or-
Fain is completely outside the Pattern
I think the first; where he is ect. still is in the pattern (or he would be an observer), and the DO's voice would be a part of the pattern then too, and he is completely outside the pattern... but the thinness in the pattern is at SG, so it is outside the pattern... I hate confusing myself
8
Arien Sedai: 2003-12-03
About something you mentioned in the first option - the impression I got from the books is that the One Power isn't good or evil, it just [i]is[/i].
The Pattern is neutral, right? So, logically, so is the force that turns it.
9
Callandor: 2003-12-04
** TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 12 - Across the Taren
"The One Power," Moiraine was saying, "comes from the True Source, the driving force of Creation, the force the Creator made to turn the Wheel of Time." She put her hands together in front of her and pushed them against each other. "Saidin, the male half of the True Source, and saidar, the female half, work against each other and at the same time together to provide that force. Saidin" - she lifted one hand, then let it drop -"is fouled by the touch of the Dark One, like water with a thin slick of rancid oil floating on top. The water is still pure, but it cannot be touched without touching the foulness. Only saidar is still safe to be used." Egwene's back was to Rand. He could not see her face, but she was leaning forward eagerly.**
The OP comes from the Creator; it is a "good" force.
10
Rhodric: 2003-12-04
i disagree callandor, the OP is neutral, different interpretation of this quote.
"The One Power," Moiraine was saying, "comes from the True Source, the driving force of Creation, the force the Creator made to turn the Wheel of Time."
the power comes from the true source which the creator created, NOT from the creator (callandor, that's what you alluded to in your last post).
the creator made the physical world and all the things in it. the creator made the true source from which the one power is drawn. the world has a nett "neutral" balance, similarly the true source ( and hence the one power) is "neutral".
the physical world and the OP are tools which living beings use to do what they want; the tools themselves are neither good nor evil. if you say the OP is "good" then by the same logic the physical world is also intrinsically good, which IMO is false.
on the other hand we have the DO's creations: the bad things that are done in his name, as well as the taint on Saidin. the DO's touch on the world(directly or through forsaken etc)is like a 'taint' on the world, similar in principle to the taint on Saidin: the projection of a pure evil presence onto an otherwise nett neutral environment.
11
mako0424: 2003-12-24
I totally believe in balance, between good and evil, saidar and saidin, black and white. Always counter-acting each other to ensure a harmonious existence, becoz where would we be without evil, there would be no good either.
So my point is bascially the Creator is absolutely neutral, and plays an observer point of view, while the dark one is a physical and spiritual manifestation of the evil of the world, while the good is exemplified by those people (also made by the Creator and are in the pattern) to counter-act this evil with their inherent good. Therefore, one coulde say that not just the Dragon, but the heroes reborn and all people with good dispositions are the counter-part to the Dark One. The Wheel of Time is like the One Power, it is neutral, but it is man who decides how these powers will be used, whether to good or evil purposes.
Any other ideas?
12
Philosopher: 2004-01-20
As for real world religions, you might study a bit of Zoroastrianism., from Babylon. Two gods, one good, one evil. Equal in power. Good will inevitably triumph, but they need more recruits for the good army, which makes no sense - if good inevitably triumphs, why need the army in the first place? Different from Christianity, but I won't go into that. ;)
As for the DO/Creator, consider this: they come from the same world as the Finns, so space and time have meaning for them, just a different one than for people. Their moral systems are neither good nor evil (from that pov), just opposite. Finns are neutral in this regard. So, Creator builds a universe, where "good" is his moral system, and it is run by his Power (True Source). Imprisons DO in it. Now, if DO breaks free, he makes his own universe, trapping Creator, run by his Power (True Power) and his moral system becomes "good". IE, the DO becomes the Creator, and the Creator becomes the DO, in the new universe. In this case, you can't view the DO as absolutely evil, just evil in the context of the Creator's universe. In a universe made by the current DO, the current Creator would be just as "evil" as the current DO is now.
13
dragonsceptor: 2004-01-20
Rhodric says,"the power comes from the true source which the creator created, NOT from the creator (callandor, that's what you alluded to in your last post).
the creator made the physical world and all the things in it. the creator made the true source from which the one power is drawn. the world has a nett "neutral" balance, similarly the true source ( and hence the one power) is "neutral"."
I'd have to disagree with this. I think the One Power does come from the creator and is fundamentally good. The reason? Back to the balance thing. If we have a True Power that is from the dark one and seperate from the One Power, it must have it's opposit. As the True Power is the power of evil, the One Power must be the power of good. That does not mean that the True power cannot be used for good (healing) or that the One Power cannot be used for bad (destruction).
The One Power cannot be neutral with the True Power in existance. Otherwise there would be no balance to the True Power.
14
Arbryan: 2004-03-09
First off, Philosopher...That's pretty thought provoking (your second paragraph).
Anyway, on to my post. I sometimes find that when dealing with things of this nature an attempt to write a picture will sometimes make it easier to understand. This is the picture I always get when thinking about the Creator, Pattern, & DO.
The Creator is looking into a bright room with seven walls. Stretching from one wall to the next is a tapestry that is being woven by the Wheel of Time and is being watched by the Creator. Behind the tapestry there is a door. At about eye level the door has a small window with iron bars. Beyond that door (Bore) is a prison cell that is occupied by the DO. He can only see the Shadow, the darkness, the underside of the tapestry that the Creator made. The same Creator that locked him in his cell. One day a hole appears in the tapestry and the DO is able to see into the room and talk to the lives that are the threads within the Lace of Ages. Whether he was just able to understand what they were, or only just able to get through after the hole is anyones guess. But, now he can. He's not free yet, and he can't see the pattern's future (limited visibility) but he can work to manipulate the present, until he can escape his prison.
I think the DO's there, and sentient else he couldn't be the opposing force of the Creator. I further think something happens to cause a cyclic-repeat and either the DO is new every turning of the wheel or the wheel and world are destroyed at the end of the Seventh Age and created again by the Creator to start the first age. (kinda like flipping a circuit breaker to get the electricity back on).
Is there a natural or forced "reset" of the primary world that puts everything back and ready to start again in the first age? Or, does each world get one run and then a new primary world is woven and this one becomes less substantial and so on until it's not really there any more. Maybe we can look to the mirror worlds for clues on how the story world evolves. Worlds fade to mirrors, and even the mirrors are forgetten in the spinning of the Wheel. (this last bit is pure speculation, I haven't really put any thought into it at this point)
