1
Tamyrlin: 2004-04-02
Okay. Yes, Anath is Semirhage, but I kept your theory in because you did a good job describing your thoughts, you included some quotes, and this is a good topic. Semirhage is using Tuon to get Mat, and might use a Tuon look alike to get Rand...I wonder if there is a third one around to pick off Perrin? :) What are Semirhage's plans for Rand? He will walk in with some male channelers and a large contingent of people, I would think, but then again, Jordan has dumbed him down a bit.
2
HawkeWolfe: 2004-04-02
I agree that Semi is going to try to get Rand with the male Adam, but I do not see it happening when they first meet. Rand will have his entourage, and Semi & Company will have theirs. Too many people in the beginning, but I think that Semi will suggest a more private, relaxed meeting after the first, and then she will strike. Of course, RJ could really mix it up if the real Tuon shows up right at that moment and then has to choose between Matt and duty to Seanchan! Way too many possibilities to predict. *grin* Cannot wait for next book.
3
dragonsceptor: 2004-04-02
Why do they need to have a look alike Tuon? Rand has never met Tuon. They can say anyone is the DotNM and Rand would not know the difference. I think that this meeting has much more significance than we may initially see. First off, Rand sends Bashere and Logain to setup the meeting. Only Bashere returns to report. When rand leaves, he is holding a rod whose description is similiar to the AS oath rod (sorry I don't have the quote). I think it is time for one of Rand's closes allies to betray him. I think this will be Bashere. I know Callandor...his initial thoughts don't reveal he is a darkfriend but I think Bashere will prove to be the exception. It makes sense. Bashere goes to Suroth, arranges to betray Rand by setting up the meeting, returns to Rand w/out notifiying Logain. I think the rod he has is a binder and Rand intends on using it to formalize an alliance. I think this meeting will cause Rand to be captured by Anath. I also think that Logain's glory will come by rescuing Rand from Anath.
Anyway...just my thoughts...I'm sure many of you will disagree with me.
4
snakes-n-foxes: 2004-04-02
Tamyrlin, Anath didn't arrange for Tuon's meeting with Mat. Tuon, on her way over to Randland had a fortelling from her damane, and she punished her damane for telling it (WH - What a Veil Hides).
In Ebou Dar - Tuon is for some reason, always showing up in the Palace somewhere near Mat.
In Ebou Dar - Mat announces that Tuon is his wife...she takes it remarkably calmly...and decides to submit, without any further fight.
In CoT-A Fan of Colours, Tuon asks Mat "Do you remember Artur Hawkwings face?"
It seems to me that Tuon was told something along the lines of "Your husband will be a gambler and not of Seanchan blood, he will announce himself to you, and he will have seen Hawkwings face."
As for Suroth meeting Rand, it does seem to me that it will be a fake DoNM, but why would they need to take a look-a-like along - Rand doesn't know what the DotNM looks like.
As for Anath being Semirhage, I tend to agree, except for one thing...Seachans views of the world. Semirhage is posing as 'property' ???
I doubt Suroth could help feeling condescending towards 'Anath' if she has so little power that she has to pose as property. (granted Suroth would fear Semirhage too much to ever show such, but I doubt she could help feeling the condescension...and Semirhage would know she felt it, whether or not Suroth ever showed a hint of it)
Moghedian is the only one I could ever imagine playing a servant. The rest have played lords and ladies. Playing a servant would earn you the condescension of the rest of the forsaken as well - which politically (among the forsaken), would be very difficult to overcome.
Granted being a truth speaker grants her licence to control the DotNM, and through her, the Return. But the above problems still exist.
5
solomonrex: 2004-04-02
I think it's possible that it IS Tuon that wants to meet with Rand, because RJ has been fiddling with the timeline quite a bit. I agree that it's not the most popular reading of this. I'm not sure the Seanchan are going to develop a major conspiracy plot when there is so little of the story left (two books?)
6
Callandor: 2004-04-02
**I think it's possible that it IS Tuon that wants to meet with Rand, because RJ has been fiddling with the timeline quite a bit.**
I really doubt it. RJ has messed with timelines a lot, but never to this great a degree. He has moved through three months in a single chapter, but he informed us of the change. I really, highly, doubt that he would change this much movement by a main character, without showing us this (if he moved Mat back to Ebou Dar in three sentences it would be more like it, not this).
7
charliec: 2004-04-03
Lanfear posed as an ugly fat woman... why couldn't Semirhage pose as property? I'm sure she'd dislike it, and stop as soon as it was no longer necessary, exacting vengeance on anyone who'd looked down on her, but she's still got enough cunning and perseverance to put up with it for a while.
I like this idea, although I don't think she'd manage to actually get the a'dam onto Rand... if she did it'd be game over- just open a gateway to safety and that's that- there'll be some turn around which gets him out of danger just in time.
8
charliec: 2004-04-04
** Why do they need to have a look alike Tuon? Rand has never met Tuon. They can say anyone is the DotNM and Rand would not know the difference.**
They wouldn't need to fool Rand, granted, but they would need other Seanchan (as escort and such), who would recognise Tuon, and raise a stir if a double was used.
Just a thought against Semirhage as Anath... if she is posing as Anath then she's being more subtle than other Forsaken have tended to be, only using her power in a very limited way, and progressing slowly... Be'lal, Rahvin, Samael, Graendal, Moghedien have all been much more forward in their use of compulsion and such to achieve their ends. We don't see the same around Anath- she isn't as widely revered or obeyed as the others have tended to be. Arguably this is because she's often near Damane, and thus in a risky position- but then would she be willing to limit herself in that way (she's been moving VERY slowly, while the other forsaken get a chance to steal a march).
Further thought from this... if Semirhage is Anath, then when things go wrong she may end up collared, possibly with Tuon as a sul'dam...
9
Davian93: 2004-04-04
****As for Anath being Semirhage, I tend to agree, except for one thing...Seachans views of the world. Semirhage is posing as 'property' ???****
You have to remember that the Seanchan view of "property" is very different than anyone elses. As "property" of the future Empress, Anath (in her position at least) wields almost as most power as Tuon. Suroth, even though shes of High Blood herself is below in the hierarchy of Tuon's "property". So there would be no looking down at her.
10
Brendan Reborn: 2004-04-04
I think it is very likely for Anath to be Semirhage due to the fact that Egwene had a vision of the seanchan invading Tar Valon, and i beleive it was semirhage that spoke to the DF Aes Sedai in the White Tower with a mask of mirrors. That would tie the seanchan and the white tower together.
About the male adam. We know that female one's can only be used via women who can learn to channel or WOMEN who can channel. Would this mean that for the male adam, you would need a male channeler to control Rand?
Just my two cents.
11
Sir Milo: 2004-04-04
** "if she is posing as Anath then she's being more subtle than other Forsaken have tended to be, only using her power in a very limited way, and progressing slowly... Be'lal, Rahvin, Samael, Graendal, Moghedien "**
Semirhage IS alot more subtle than Rhavin, Sammael, and Bel'al. She is also alot more ALIVE than these three folks, so I think she's made a pretty wise decision, yes?
12
Callandor: 2004-04-04
**We know that female one's can only be used via women who can learn to channel or WOMEN who can channel. Would this mean that for the male adam, you would need a male channeler to control Rand?**
No, it controls a male channeler through the necklace; a woman, or women, control the man by using the bracelets.
13
Davian93: 2004-04-04
****About the male adam. We know that female one's can only be used via women who can learn to channel or WOMEN who can channel. Would this mean that for the male adam, you would need a male channeler to control Rand?****
Theres a quote in TSR from Moggy where she is explaining it to Nynaeve. You need a female to use the male a'dam. She also mentions that you can share it so you dont lose control as quickly as the longer one wears the a'dam the male eventually will gain control. She also mentions sharing the a'dam with other females to slow this effect. Hope this helps.:)
14
oortwaynes: 2004-04-05
I dont think Semi is involved with the seanchan at all. I cant remeber what book it happens in but at one point Sammael says something to semi about events to the south having Demendraad all over them. How much further south can u go then seanchan???
15
snakes-n-foxes: 2004-04-05
Brendan, the male adam is a collar with two bracelets. The collar for the man obviously, and the bracelets for up to two women. It starts off with the woman in control, but gradually over time it gets harder and harder to control the man, until finally it is the man who is in control.
16
charliec: 2004-04-05
Brendan: The male a'dam is designed for women to control men... it has two bracelets so can either be used by one or two women. It hasn't been used so far because of the danger of the taint seeping back through the a'dam into the women, and the male eventually becoming dominant.
Obviously the taint is no longer a risk (and probably wouldn't have been to Semirhage anyway), but what about the man achieving dominance? It's unclear whether that was an effect of the taint, or rather a flaw in teh device.
17
Brendan Reborn: 2004-04-05
Maybe i am mistaken, but did Nynaeve not get hurt while touching the male a'dam? Maybe i need to do some re-reading.
18
nowhere man: 2004-04-05
**It's unclear whether that was an effect of the taint, or rather a flaw in teh device.**
I'd have to say it's probably a flaw in the concept. Given that the A'Dams are based on linking, and given that we've seen that very small mixed circles must normally be controlled by a man, it's probably an inescapable effect.
For this specific device, I remember that it's not so much that the man achieves dominance, as both sides tending toward equal degrees of dominance/submission.
19
charliec: 2004-04-06
**Maybe i am mistaken, but did Nynaeve not get hurt while touching the male a'dam? Maybe i need to do some re-reading.**
She gets a sense of intense pain and suffering when she touches it- it's not hurting her, she's just picking up its history...
20
Anubis: 2004-04-06
no. nynaeve touched the male adan and got the impression of sadness and pain. it was not a physical or actual sensation just that the ter angreal made her think of those things. the pain she got was from touching the broken access key to the choden kal. not a smart move on nynas part.
21
Callandor: 2004-04-06
**Maybe i am mistaken, but did Nynaeve not get hurt while touching the male a'dam? Maybe i need to do some re-reading**
Not hurt per say; a feeling of evil and pain, no real phyiscal pain like what Rand experienced in TFOH when he touched the a'dam (a real one; not the male a'dam).
**I dont think Semi is involved with the seanchan at all. I cant remeber what book it happens in but at one point Sammael says something to semi about events to the south having Demendraad all over them. How much further south can u go then seanchan???**
Point, but Sammael said this from Arad Doman, which is just below the Borderlands; there a lot of "south" in that area before getting to the Seanchan area.
I think this should really seal any doubt that Semi is not with the Seanchan. WOT FAQ:
**In WH we meet Tuon's Soe'feia, or Truthspeaker, Anath. Other than having Pure Evil written all over her, what makes us think that Anath must be the long-absent Semirhage surfacing at last?
Well, probably because point for point the two women's descriptions are a spot-on match. Let's consider the points:
1. Physical traits.
Anath: "A slender woman, she would have been tall even for a man. Her charcoal-dark face was beautiful, but her large black eyes seemed to pierce like awls" [WH: 14, What A Veil Hides, 326].
Semirhage: "...unblinking dark eyes in a smooth dark face...Semirhage stood taller than most men, though so perfectly proportioned that you did not realize it until she stood over you, looking down" [LOC: Prologue, The First Message, 56].
2. Fashion sense.
Anath: Described in Chapter 14 as wearing "unrelieved black silk". She's wearing black again when Mat meets Tuon for the first time [WH: 17, Pink Ribbons, 367]. It's pretty safe to assume it's her costume of choice.
Semirhage: From the same page of LOC as above, Graendal thinks, "Not even Demandred dared suggest to Semirhage's face that she wore black so often because Lanfear wore white."
3. Other telltale traits.
On the ship, Anath doesn't show discomfort in the cold, which time and again in WOT is a trait used to describe channelers. Anath should in no way be able to channel.
Later in Ebou Dar, Mat notices that the trademark slurring accent of the Seanchan is barely present in Anath's speech [WH: 17, Pink Ribbons, 369].
4. Sadism.
Easily the defining personality trait of both characters - not just the fact that they both enjoy giving pain, but the disturbingly solicitous manner in which the torture is administered. Tuon thinks of how Anath showed "an odd sort of tenderness" in dispensing a penance that left Tuon crying for days; the same exact phrase could be used to describe Semirhage's behavior during her torture of Cabriana Mecandes [LOC: 6, Threads Woven of Shadow, 139-141].
5. The "willful charge" comment.
Semirhage thinks to herself in LOC: "She did not like having to hurry. And to be called away from her charge; the girl was willful and obdurate, the circumstances difficult." [LOC: 6, Threads Woven of Shadow, 141].
Fits Anath's situation to a tee. Tuon is certainly plenty stubborn.
6. Location.
During the Forsaken Coffee Hour, Demandred thinks, "he wished Semirhage or Mesaana were present...But it was difficult for Semirhage to attend these meetings" [WH: 13, Wonderful News, 313].
Being confined on a ship with a bunch of damane wandering about would probably make it very difficult indeed for Semi, as Anath, to Travel anywhere, even using inverted weaves.
7. Standard Forsaken M.O.
Anath was unexpectedly named to the position of Tuon's Soe'feia by the Empress after the untimely death of her predecessor Neferi from a fall down stairs less than two years before WH, despite the fact that Neferi already had a replacement trained for such circumstances. It's safe to say that if anyone has control over Tuon, the second most powerful noble in the Seanchan Empire, it's her Truthspeaker.
How convenient.
In other words, this chain of events has a very familiar ring after reading about Be'lal in Tear, Rahvin in Andor, Sammael in Illian, Graendal in Arad Doman, Mesaana in the White Tower, Aran'gar in Salidar, and even Osan'gar (and possibly Demandred) in the Black Tower, not to mention what Ishy was running around doing in the centuries he was only partly bound. Most of the Forsaken since being freed have busied themselves acquiring power, not by being the power, but by being the power behind the power.
And it's absurd to think that the FS would inveigle their way into all these nations' ruling councils and ignore the Seanchan, who are currently the only military force in Randland, other than Egwene's army, that can put up a decent fight against Rand's Asha'man. (Note that while Demandred had been possibly linked to the Seanchan by Sammael [LOC: 6, Threads Woven of Shadow, 135], his involvement with the Black Tower and his arrangement with Semi, as described in the Forsaken Coffee Hour section, precludes his involvement with the Seanchan.)
In sum, the similarities and the situation are so perfect that it makes no sense for Anath not to be Semirhage.**
22
Unicorn: 2004-04-07
I stumpled over the "events in the south" thing, too, when Sammael visited Graendal. I also was somewhat troubled by the fact that he was in Arad Doman when thinking this, but there are two thing that still IMO speaks in favor of Demandred being with the Seanchan. 1. if you step through a door that incidently brings you hundreds of miles north would you all of a sudden change the way you see geography. I don't think so, and apart from the seafolk(seanchan controlled) there isn't a hell of a lot other than the land of madmen south of Illian. So true it could be the land of madmen I would think the seafolk would be a better guess. 2. The Seanchan involvement on the "known" continent was all south of Arad Doman, so even taking Sammaels location in to account I think the Seanchan might be a good guess.
AND, now don't get me wrong but physical similarities don't count much, everyone (execpt me and a few others) discount Demandred being Taim because of Jordan's Aes Sedai answer about posing, and I will spare you the point by opint but Taim share a heck of a lot of physical appearance with Demandred. Even so I believe that Semirhage is Anath, but this doesn't exclude Demandred to be with them as well. After all if Aran'gar could team up with him in the Black tower (Taim or not), then why not Demandred and Semirhage, who we know to be working at least a little together already. But this still leaves the Borderlands without Forsaken influence!.
23
Brendan Reborn: 2004-04-20
**"This leaves the borderlands without forsaken infuence"**
Why do we need forsaken influence in an area so close to the blight? The borderland armies are marching in andor or wherever, and the blight is left totally defenseless! I think that will be a key part in tarmon gaidon.
24
dragonsceptor: 2004-04-21
**Why do we need forsaken influence in an area so close to the blight?**
Because the Borderlands have historically been those most dedicated to fighting the shadow.
Let's think about this...the countries closest to Shayol Ghul and thus Tarmon Gaidon...most dedicated to fighting the shadow...oh and they have some of the fiercest warriors in Randland...
Why wouldn't there be a forsaken involved in this? I think the very fact that the borderland rulers have left the blight is a sign of forsaken intervention. Why are they free to leave? Because the Blight is quiet. Who could influence the blight? Forsaken. So we have bitter enemies of the shadow distracted and sent to Andor leaving the blight unprotected...sounds like forsake fingerprints to me.
25
Callandor: 2004-04-21
**Why do we need forsaken influence in an area so close to the blight? The borderland armies are marching in andor or wherever, and the blight is left totally defenseless! I think that will be a key part in tarmon gaidon.**
If being protected from "anything short of the Trolloc Wars again" is defenseless....
Weakening the Borderlands increases the risk of another Trolloc War, more chaos, more control by the Forsaken themselves, and an easy route of attack for the Last Battle (they are forced to go through the Borderlands to get to the rest of the world).
26
Brendan Reborn: 2004-04-21
What I was intending to state, was that we don't need a forsaken in the borderlands at this time, because the armies are so far south. The blight is so close that it doesn't seem necessary. (I do think the forsaken had a hand in moving them away)
27
Davian93: 2004-04-22
****was that we don't need a forsaken in the borderlands at this time, because the armies are so far south. The blight is so close that it doesn't seem necessary. (I do think the forsaken had a hand in moving them away)****
Actually, I dont think the forsaken have had anything to do with moving the borderlanders away from the blight. I think that is more Rands fault than anything. If rand would have done anything at all at talking to the borderland rulers they'd be on his side. Instead he ignored them and they are forcing the issue by hunting him down.
28
Blademaster: 2004-04-23
2 things:
First, there is absolutely no need to have some sort of double type person for Tuon. After all, Semirhage can just cast an illusion and invert it. Problem solved.
Second, the borderlands are ALOT more vigilant about dealing with the shadow. Certainly, there are darkfriends, as we see in tGH, but all the power is concentrated in the kings and their closest advisors. The only way I can think of getting any power in the borderlands is to either eliminate one of the people in power and masquerade as them, (very difficult to ensure that nobody become suspicious), or to take the route of Rahvin, and cozy up to one of the rulers. (IMO, that would be difficult because the borderland rulers are held by their commitment to the blight, and if they started to ignore it for a suitor, their nobles would take measures. I realize the Andor didn't just lie down, but I think that the borderlanders concept of honor would help prevent Rahvinesque problems.) This might be part of why there is no OBVIOUS forsaken presence in the borderlands.
In a side note, I still think that Demandred is Taim, and when the Forsaken were staking out territory, he claimed the borderlands in his guise as the false dragon. This fits as another possibility as to why there is no Forsaken presence in the borderlands -- Demandred took it first and nobody has taken up where he left off since then.
29
Brendan Reborn: 2004-04-28
I think that rand's meeting will actually be with suroth, and she will use the male a'dam to control him. Anath (semi) is with Tuon. (to my knowledge she is)So it coulndt be her
30
Anubis: 2004-04-28
blademaster
*cough* lord ingtar *cough*
31
Callandor: 2004-04-28
**In a side note, I still think that Demandred is Taim, and when the Forsaken were staking out territory, he claimed the borderlands in his guise as the false dragon.**
Ugh, give it up! Taim is not Demandred.
**Q: "It's been said that you mentioned that Mazrim Taim is not Demandred. There seems to be some confusion on whether or not you said that."
A: "Mazrim Taim is not Demandred."
[Matthew Julius, post-COT signing, Dayton, OH, January 16, 2003]**
Interview reported several times, from multiple sources, and later confirmed by three other interviews. Give over.
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Brendan Reborn: 2004-04-29
Ok. Mazrim Taim is not Demandred. But it doesn't say that Demandred is not Mazrim Taim....Just playing callandor.
It's most likely Suroth and she will trap Rand with the a'dam and all hell will break loose after that.
33
Koriblade: 2004-05-02
Another thing about Semirhage.... she is known (and feared) for her ability to "convince" someone to come to the shadow. Now Morridin wants Rand to come to the shadow (or at least did). Given his new control over Forsaken he would likely check on Semirhage regurlary and is aware of whats shes doing. Wouldn't he want her to "convince" Rand to come over a lot more effective than using an a'dam. Given her track record at that sort of thing Rand is in a hell of a lot of trouble..
34
New Forsaken: 2004-05-17
I do not think it is beyond any of the Forsaken to pose as what others would see as beneath them. Look at Lanfear a simple peddler. Grendal a crippled old woman. Moggie a servant. Semmi as a truthspeaker. All of the female Forsaken will be seen as servants. Maseana included. I still think she is a servant in the White Tower, maybe the mistress of the kitchens. All the men grabbed for powerful positions and the females are hidden.
35
mako0424: 2004-05-18
i dunno, everyone seems to try and go into way too much thought and detail when analyzing these situations.
1. I should think it obvious that Tuon's Truthspeaker Anath is defintly Semirhage, way ..way too many hints , clues, and details to avoid, and yes Anath and Suroth(proven darkfriend) will definitly have a hand in attempting to use the male a'dam on Rand. and i also definitly think they will have top use a double for Tuon coz we know one exist, when Mat kidnaps her, the double is used so as not to cause panic. I also think that Suroth used this to the best of her abilities. I also think Tuon is the key to salvaging the Senachan empire after Suroth and Semi. make a mess of it, Tuon is good, her and mat will marry and they will help lead the Seanchan to Tarmon Gaidon, after Rand bows to the Crystal Throne (which will happen, even though its foreign prophecy, every prophecy will come true one way or another) but he will incidentally be caught coz he is forced to bow to the Crystal Throne.
2. Demandred is not Taim, but it is said that Taim uses proxies in which case, its safe to say that Taim is probably Demandred's lacky, and my guess would be Demandred is posing as a Child of the Light officer, or he is likewise using proxies there too. I remember reading about the hands of power changing suddenly in the Children of Light, as well as one time i think Demandred opened a gateway, and someone almost realized (no quote or book titles sorry) but we also know, as said by ?Jordan, we havent met Demandred's alias yet. He is the only one still incognito, but my guess is that Sammael is still alive, and we should be watching out for him, he isnt dead, someone go back and reread that stupid ending, and agree with me, Sammael will return.
Forsaken gone or dead:
1. Asmodean (killied by lanfear, wont be brought back0
2. Rahvin (balefired by Rand)
3. Osan'gar/Aginor (killed twice now, Rand and Elza)
4. Be'lal (balefired by Moiraine)
Soon to Go/Already died once/Other Whereabouts:
5. Halima/Balthamel- I think she will be instigating alot, but will soon be recognized by some male channeler in Salidar) I think she will be defeated by Egwene, its only fitting)
6. Moghedian- bested twice by Nynaeve, under Moridin's control. Will be beat by Nynaeve most likely, possibly by Egwene in T"A"R.
7. Sammael-beat once by Rand, i think he will come back, and be beaten by some male channeler, ie. Logain.
8. Granedal- Shes gonna be gone soon, she has to be brought into books really soon. Along with Arad Doman. Probably will be beat by Elayne or Cadsuane.
9. Semirhage/Anath- with Seanchan, will best Rand, first major success for Forsaken, but will be stopped by Cadsuane or Aviendha
10. Mesaana- in white tower, posing as Danelle as far as im concerned, iots too obvious. will be beat by Sharina Melloy or some other Forsaken strength channeler at Tarmon Gaidon. ie. Talaan, Alivia, Sharina, Desaandre.
these are alot of predictions too, but there you go
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Callandor: 2004-05-20
**7. Sammael-beat once by Rand, i think he will come back, and be beaten by some male channeler, ie. Logain.**
No, Sammael is dead. Dead and gone, and not returning. That is what RJ sais; he was killed by Mashadar.
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banner general1: 2007-01-14
this is all solved in kod
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Daekyras: 2009-11-23
Ha Ha, I remember when I wrote this I was so proud and then I saw the reponses and realised everyone had reached a similar conclusion without me!!!
Ah, the way time can allow us to see things in a new light.
