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Home | Index | Archives | Help
he Destruction of the Dark One
by Shai tan: 2004-02-09 | 2 out of 10 (2 votes)
Previous Categories: All About the Creator
In this case, the greater Power refers to the Creator. I know this sounds like a crackpot theory, so hear me out. Once I finished reading the entire series, I started thinking about how the Dark One could be destroyed, and started rereading the series. That's when I stumbled across the passage in The Eye of the World that said something like, "A sword was in Rand's hand, a sword of light, a sword of the Light" We know the Dark One can create a link between his power and mortals, allowing them to channel it as one would the One Power. We know this as the True Power. What if the Creator did this as well? I know that the One Power was made by the Creator, but it is not the same as the True Power in that it is not the Creator's own power. In Crossroads of Twighlight, Rand referred to the Creator as a gardener, which may have been Lews Therin's thought, but that's beside the point. The point is, if the Creator is like a gardener, and this world is only one of many, He might not notice one flower dying, but He will react to all His flowers dying, or to a threat that would kill them all (Verin, in The Great Hunt said that if the Dark One is freed in the World of the Wheel (Randland), he would be free in all worlds).
It is my thought that He would react to this by destroying such a threat. I do not suggest that He will destroy the threat Himself, which He might do,but that He will allow someone to tap into His own power without a limit to how much can be drawn as one would with the One Power. With such power at one's fingertips, even the immortality and power Shai'tan can wield would be of no avail. If the Creator would grant such a gift, he would bestow it upon his champion, the Dragon Reborn. This does NOT necissarily mean Rand. It could be a hundred billion full turnings of the Wheel before it could happen, or it could happen at the Last Battle. However, this champion would have certain statutes he would have to meet:
1. He must not serve the Shadow (obviously)
2. He must prove through his actions he will not misuse the power
3. He must show that he is worthy of the ability to wield the Creator's might
This may be an idea only a crackpot can think up, but to my mind, it has merit. Please, consider this, and hack it to pieces if you so desire.
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2004-02-21
If the Creator imprisoned the DO in the first place, why not kill him at that point, if he had the power, and if he was concerned the DO could get loose and destroy his creations? Additionally, the OP is the Creator's power. As far as we have any indication, that is the power he gives to his creations. The DO has a separate source of his power, but we have no indication the Creator has a third source of power; the OP, weilded by the Creator, is enough to defeat the DO. I will agree with one assumption, if the DO was going to escape, the Creator could step in and imprison him again. Just some thoughts.
Rand alThor15: 2004-02-21
Thank the Light someone other than me believes that the Creator has another power!! i thought i was the only crazy kid with a wild imagination, but noooo, there are others like me, hurray!!
now, down to business :
the creator has his own power, but he cannot destroy the DO, nor can anyone else, RJ believes in balance, that is why the DO won't be destroyed.
If the creator will share his power, his essence, or whatever else he has to offer, it will be to lock up the DO permanetly and not destroy him, for if there is no DO, there is no more need for the creator, he has done his job, he will cease to exist...
In bref :
A Dragon will recieve that power and will lock the DO, not destroy him, it may be Rand or some other buffoon, we will see...
Davian93: 2004-02-21
The DO cannot be destroyed even by the Creator. If it was possible, the Creator would have done it already. Also, as Tam said, there is no indication or need for a third hitherto unknown power to come into play. The OP is to the Creator as the TP is to the DO. At best, all Rand and the Creator can do is reseal the DO's prison so he cannot touch or effect the Pattern. Hopefully it will occur in such a way the DO's prison is essentially rebuilt and there is no patch that can weaken. But this is not a definite. We have like 5 more ages until the DO's prison cannot have a patch and mankind has to redrill the Bore in the next 2nd Age/AoL.
On another note, even if the seals are completely gone, the DO still cannot get out of his prison. At that point, he can simply have more influence on events. Even at the end of the War of Power before the Sealing, the DO was still not free, only able to influence events.
Callandor: 2004-02-21
**I agree with the fact that in no way can any of the major or minor characters destroy the Dark One, not even with the Choedan Kal.**
**If the Creator would grant such a gift, he would bestow it upon his champion, the Dragon Reborn.**
Question: If you yourself admit that NO MAJOR CHARACTER can destroy the DO, what could they do with this "power" of the Creator? Nothing. The DO and the Creator are the only two "beings" that exist OUTSIDE the Pattern. Hence, they have no thread to destroy, and no soul to destroy. Hence, no person who exists within the Pattern can destroy the DO or the Creator.
Also, I agree with Tam. If the Creator could kill the DO, why imprison him?
On an added note, before anyone says Padan Fain will become the next DO, no.
**Thank the Light someone other than me believes that the Creator has another power!!**
He doesn't. The One Power is his power.
**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 12 - Across the Taren
"The One Power," Moiraine was saying, "comes from the True Source, the driving force of Creation, *the force the Creator made* to turn the Wheel of Time." She put her hands together in front of her and pushed them against each other. "Saidin, the male half of the True Source, and saidar, the female half, work against each other and at the same time together to provide that force. Saidin" - she lifted one hand, then let it drop -"is fouled by the touch of the Dark One, like water with a thin slick of rancid oil floating on top. The water is still pure, but it cannot be touched without touching the foulness. Only saidar is still safe to be used." Egwene's back was to Rand. He could not see her face, but she was leaning forward eagerly.**
It is not drawn from him, like the TP, but it is still his power.
Flinn: 2004-02-21
It's my belief that the Creator either can't, or will not, destroy the DO. All the time, we hear talk that the Dragon and the DO have battled since time began and will for eternity.
I think that the DO's life is one of imprisonment, with little breaks full of trying to destroy the world thrown in.
Mairashda: 2004-02-22
The Creator will not destroy the Dark One because the existence of Dark One is essential when it comes to shaping the pattern. yes, the Dark one is imprisoned outside the pattern but his existence alone provides a pole opposite to the creator, an orientation to those threads that would otherwise find none.
Korell: 2004-02-23
You cannot have good without evil that is why the Creator willnot destroy the DO weather he can or not is irelevent he won't imo
Arbryan: 2004-02-23
I've thought about where the Dark One is from, in order to try to better understand his motives and situation. The latest theory I've come up with is that he is the invert to the Creator. Whether the Creator made the DO or the DO is the Creator's shadow I cannot say. But I feel that he is the opposite to the Creator. In the same regard I feel that the True Power is the invert, or the opposite, of the True Source.
If the Creator made the DO it could be that he imprisoned the DO and uses the DO to have a baseline for how beautiful his world is. The same goes for the TP, it shows how good the TS is by comparison.
To destroy the DO might require destroying the creator (which isn't going to happen).
I think the key to the last battle is going to be the superior power gained by linking (maybe Rand will even figure out how to control the link himself) Saidin and Saidar going against the TP. The teamwork of the Light vs. the solitude of the Shadow.
ema: 2004-02-24
this is a crazy thought, but maybe the Creator has the power to destroy the DO, just hasn't. you always have to have bad to balance out the good, and the Creator probably knows this, so he knows that without the DO there would be no balance. i think that all that willhappen to the DO is he will get re-sealed into the bore, and everything will start all over again.
brother of Battles: 2004-02-24
The Dark One will never be destroyed. However, He will be Sealed again, but this time with no actual "seals". In "Lord of Chaos" Rand was talking to Herdid Fel and the man said that, because of the turning of the wheel, the Dark One will be totally locked up again. All the forsaken, all the shadowspawn, and all the Friends of the Dark will be destroyed. Because in the age of Legends, no one knows of war, the shadowspawn was created, and no one knew of the Dark One, so that means at sometime, Everyone forgot about him. In order for all that to happen again, the wheel of time will turn and the knowledge will turn to legend, legend to myth, then it will all be forgoten again when the age that gave its birth comes again.
Daekyras: 2004-02-25
*But while this is true, is it not also true that a greater Power can destroy a lesser, even if the lesser is the Dark One?*
I think that Morraine would be considered a lesser power than Bel'al, and she killed him. If Lan, my hero, was asleep and a homicidal eight year old came and slit his throat, would that be a lesser power killing a greater power?
I don't think it is reasonable to say it is impossible for the DO to be killed. All things are possible.
Maybe the creator imprisoned him at the moment of creation as he couldn't bring himself to kill him, being good and all that. We all make mistakes.
Maybe it's time for him to rectify it.
TG isn't called "the last battle" for nothing. Just because the quote says "world not done with battle" doesn't mean the DO can be killed. There will still be men. The dreadlords will still be able to draw on saidin and saidar.
I think this is just the ultimate RAFO!
dragonsceptor: 2004-02-25
I've got a question for all of you. I do believe that the DO's goal is to break the wheel and that the goal of the light is to prevent this from happening. However, as is stated above, it is called the last battle. Additionally, Ishy (while anything he says needs to be taken with a grain of salt) says repeatedly that he and the dragon have fought many times before in previous turnings of the wheel. This appears to be one of Ishy's more rational moments and I don't think it can be discounted. Obviously, if the DO wins, the wheel will be broken and this will be true. What about if the light wins and the wheel survives? Will this still be the LB? Or is Ishy just stating this as fact because he believes the wheel will be broken?
timetorollthedice: 2004-02-25
I'll go with Korell on this. Good balances evil. Even in Eden, there was no progression until Adam and Eve (this is from another series that I'm reading:) )experienced evil. They didn't know what was good.
There will always be evil and good, good will always be stronger, and mortals will always have to decide which one to follow and they'll always have to seek for enough strength to overcome evil if they choose.
charliec: 2004-02-26
timetorollthedice- got to disagree with your biblical theology there...
The bible makes it clear that the fall in Eden is a tragedy, not a progression, it is a departure from the natural progression, and the beginning of the decline of our world (which is 'subjected to frustration'- Romans 8). It is by the grace of God, who is far greater than all that is evil, that the situation was reversed at the cross, and Christ revealed a gospel of redemption. Certainly biblical theology does not have a balanced good and evil.
RJ on the other hand is less clear, in randland the majority of people appear to perceive a balance between teh creator and the dark one. Many of them also seem to consider this to be a fragile balance- that one or the other could dominate- but usually the intellectuals disagree, adn think that one way or another the wheel will keep turning.
From the books I don't think it's possible to tell yet which is right...
asdaf: 2004-02-26
Destroying the Dark One... Insane.
1. Even if something like this was possible, how could it be accomplished?
Lanfear spoke often about challenging the Dark One and Creator with help of Choedan Kal, but Moirane didn't see in Rhuidean anything what could suggest that they (Rand and Lanfear) really tried to do so. And Lanfear would try it, she desires power enough to try.
2. What tools could be used to destroy the Dark One?
There are only two with proper potential: One Power and True Power. TP can be discarded for obvious reasons. As for OP, if Creator didn't destroy the Dark One at the moment of creation it means that He a) can't do it or b) don't want to do it, either way it won't be done. And no, I don't believe there is some 'mysterious' third power that Creator is hiding in the sack - One Power is Creator's power, just as True Power is Dark One's power. Saying that there must be some another Creator's power because TP is taken from the Dark One and OP is taken from the True Source is wishful thinking. All we know is that the Dark One grants access to TP, so everybody assumes he is source of it, maybe he is, maybe he isn't. Maybe he just creates link between a True Power channeller and the source of True Power. This is stuff for a whole theory so I stop here.
IMO the Dark One is something like mirror reflection of the Creator - one can not exist without the other. And no, there is no balance in this relationship. If someone locked you in a room threw away the key and go away would you say that you balance him in any way? Creator - Dark One relation is about domination, restrain and control. Creator created everything that is thus imprisoning the Dark One. Creator does not allow the Dark One to act in any way. Creator don't want the Dark One to be free because it would ruin his creation. And final blow to 'balance theory'; in AOL people didn't know about the Dark One and yet they grew prosperous. They did so until they found the Dark One (if balance was true, they should be more happy). If you still believe that Creator is balanced by the Dark One you should read Dragonlance Saga - about world that trully is balanced.
People in Randland don't percive "balance between the Creator and the Dark One", they wish Dark One gone for good, locked and forgotten. The only creative things that Dark One gave Randlanders are shadowspawn and rediscovery of war.
Good is balancing Evil and vice versa, but they don't come from the Creator or the Dark One, they come from humans. Just like *finns, are they good or bad? They are simply different, just like the Dark One. What I mean is that good and evil are not absolute, they are relative if you have any doubts think about Senchan and damane.
Cha Faile: 2004-02-28
Just some thoughts on this quotation..
*"The One Power," Moiraine was saying, "comes from the True Source, the driving force of Creation, the force the Creator made to turn the Wheel of Time." *
Surely if the Creator made the OP or the True SOurce or whatever to turn the Wheel he could make other forces. Is it likely that he could have only made one of these "powers/forces/Sources"? IF he could make one then why couldn't he make others? I don't know whether i believe the idea that there is another power but i also don't know why he couldn't make more than one?
dragonsceptor: 2004-02-28
Cha Faile, Why would he need to??? I can't see a logical reason why he couldn't create another power but I don't think the creator would do anything w/out a reason. I do not see a reason why another power would be necessary. The OP can accomplish all that the creator needs done. Another power would only be duplicating what the creator already has.
asdaf: 2004-02-28
Dragonsceptor you think exactly as I do (at least in issue of numbers). Creator created True Source which is source of One Power. The ONE Power, name itself indicates that there is no other power.
Besides, if there had been any other power it would have created bizarre situation: Creator thought about creating something, but unexpectedly he realized that One Power is not enough to accomplish what He intended to create. What does He do then? He creates new, bigger, stronger power that will suffice, BUT, he keeps it secret this time.
charliec: 2004-02-29
We're getting a bit off topic here... I posted a theory about other powers a while ago, but it hasn't appeared yet... and may have fallen before editors...
I'd argue that there is another power, and I think there's evidence for it in the books (but let's not get into that here, but stay on topic).
The One Power is part of creation, one of the girls observes that holding the source she can even feel the tiny bits of power that everything's made of...
The DO and the creator are outside of creation, and if the 'TP' proceeds from the DO, it would make sense that there is a power of the creator as well, though he may keep it to himself and never use it to interfere.
The question is will/can Rand use this power to destroy/permanently defeat the DO?
As I've said before I think it's possible, but it depends entirely on the author's whim... maybe we just need to make two conflicting predictions and let it rest? =op
Davian93: 2004-02-29
****The DO and the creator are outside of creation, and if the 'TP' proceeds from the DO, it would make sense that there is a power of the creator as well, though he may keep it to himself and never use it to interfere.****
The Creator has the OP, He doesnt need a hitherto unmentioned third power. The DO has the TP and the Creator has the OP. There has never been any indication whatsoever of another power.
Arbryan: 2004-03-01
I possibly agree that there is a possibility of another source of power.
*"The One Power," Moiraine was saying, "comes from the True Source, the driving force of Creation, the force the Creator made to turn the Wheel of Time." *
This quote shows that the Creator used something to create the True Source.
"The force the creator MADE to turn the Wheel of Time". emphasis mine
If he made the force it stands to reason that he has another power similar in nature, or an unknown ability to create whatever he decides to (which would be another source of power, but not with the same type of concept).
I do believe that most of the information regarding the Creator is strictly POV and internal beliefs based upon rumor or scraps of information. I would be willing to bet that there is more, and more accurate information on the Dragon than the Creator - and the former seems etchy, scarce, and warped as it is.
dragonsceptor: 2004-03-01
Arbryan, by your reasoning, a source of power is necessary to create a new source of power. If this were true, then there is an infinite number of sources of power as the source of power needed to create the True Source would have also needed to be created using another source of power and so on. This does not make any sense.
The Creator made the True Source from the materials and resources at hand. An analogy for how I see this working. A blacksmith has a rod of steel, a hammer, an anvil, and a fire. With these tools and resources, a blacksmith can fashion a rod or iron (material) with the anvil, hammer, and fire (resources) into a tool that did not exist before. The True Source is a tool that the creator made to serve a purpose (turn the wheel of time).
charliec: 2004-03-01
Davian93- until a fair way into the series the OP was the only known power, hence it's name. Then the True Power turns up, but no one bats an eyelid (at least I didn't), because it's such a good idea and it makes so much sense.
Until fairly recently the earth was flat, atoms were as indivisible as their name, and the Labour party in britain was left wing.
I still think we may come across another power ;)
asdaf: 2004-03-01
Not exactly. One Power is known for more than 3000 years - 3000 years since Breaking, and who-knows-how-many years during the Age of Legends (probably MANY more) and hence its name. True Power first appeared at the end of AoL because presence of the Dark One was necessary to use it, and since that time it was used more or less frequently (less because humans are not 'compatible' with it as they are with OP).
And one more thing, Mierin didn't found another Creator's power, she found the True Power. I think that if there was any other power of the Creator she would have found it, at least some hint of it.
As for the destruction of the Dark One, it won't be done;
"The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again. In one Age, called the Third Age by some, an Age yet to come, an Age long past, a wind rose in the Mountains of Mist. The wind was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning."
Destruction of the Dark One would be THE END. Dark One has its role to play in the way the Wheel weaves the Pattern - that's how the Pattern goes, fight lasts since the Creation (and is part of it) and can only be ended with Creation destrucion (Dark One breaking free). Without the Dark One there would be no change, all ages would be the same - this would mean the end of creation or maybe even Creation.
THE WHEEL MUST TURN!
Arbryan: 2004-03-02
dragonsceptre said, "Arbryan, by your reasoning, a source of power is necessary to create a new source of power."
Actually, that is not true. I provided TWO possibilities as to how the True Source was created. I was just pointing out that is was CREATED by the Creator from SOMETHING. I was leading the trail towards the something but not specifically stating what that something was. That's a bit beyond any exposure we've had at this point. I just offered two possibilities, 1) another source of power 2) the Creator's will or workings (if in fact he did construct it as a blacksmith would a tool).
With your reasoning, there is cause to believe that whatever materials and/or resources were used to create the True Source must be a form or typ of power.
Since we are not dealing with a physical tool, but an elemental one, it is possible that he harnessed the energies from the elements themselves into the True Source. That said, it might be that the True Power is the energy of pure evil and one would probably have to assume that there is then an energy of pure goodness.
I don't know that we'll encounter a third power, I just don't think it can be thrown aside casually.
dragonsceptor: 2004-03-02
Arbryan, no offense taken. I believe that the OP and TP both use the same mechanism to effect change in the world and simply have different access methods. Any other power would also use the same mechanism and would therefore serve no purpose. The OP is sufficient for all the creator would need to do. I have just submitted a detailed theory that explains how I think this is accomplished. I will be happy to hear your thoughts on my thoery when it is posted.
Davian93: 2004-03-02
****Davian93- until a fair way into the series the OP was the only known power, hence it's name. Then the True Power turns up, but no one bats an eyelid (at least I didn't), because it's such a good idea and it makes so much sense.****
That's just it, the TP comes from the DO just as the OP comes from the Creator. There is already balance. That's why I dont think the Creator needs another 3rd power. The creator can already use the OP(both saidar and saidin combined) and has no need for another power.
charliec: 2004-03-03
But we've already covered that the OP is part of creation...
As for the creator using the One Power, I remain unconvinced- we've never seen it happen or stated- and when we've seen the creator or DO acting directly (eg speaking) there's been no sign of channelling.
There's an additional bit of evidence, but as I don't have the books here, and am not a full member I can't search for it or check it, perhaps one of the mighty quote masters could help out...
When Rand goes to Shadar Logoth to kill Samael he gets helped out by a random dude (?avatar of the creator?) who wields balefire, but (IF I REMEMBER RIGHT) doesn't appear to channel Saidin or Saidar. Please check up on that, it's ages since I read the books!
Here's another thought- the True Power bears all the hall-marks of the DO, it is destructive, consuming, and addictive. Perhaps rather than using a third power the creator also uses the True Power, except when it comes through him it bears his characteristics- constructive, good etc.
dragonsceptor: 2004-03-04
Charliec, I don't have the quote but that was Moridin using the TP. THE WOT FAQ has a great explanation of this.
Callandor: 2004-03-04
From the WOT FAQ:
**The Wanderer
We see the Wanderer in [ACOS: 41, A Crown of Swords, 656-659]:
1. Description: Big fellow. Has a deep voice. Little older than Rand. Black coat, black hair. Rand doesn't recognize him.
2. He's most likely not a Third Age person. Knows Sammael, including how Sammael thinks. He clearly knows Sam fairly well, and thus is probably from the AOL. Furthermore, he has "never been afraid of Aes Sedai." Everybody in Randland proper (i.e. not Seanchan, not Aiel, and not Sea Folk) grows up hearing stories of Aes Sedai like those the Emond's Fielders did. Such stories engender some sort of awe in the listener, yet this guy acts like AS are no problem, and has never thought otherwise. This comment is easily understandable if he's from the AOL-- back then, he WAS an Aes Sedai, and modern AS are but "untrained children" to him.
3. He uses the TP instead of the OP (balefire, and disappears without Rand sensing saidin or saidar). This is a situation where using the TP instead of the OP could be dangerous-- it might make Rand suspicious-- and yet the Wanderer uses it. This is evidence that the Wanderer is a TP addict.
4. Even apart from his TP use, he is clearly a Minion of Darkness. He calls Rand a fool, he doesn't "care to see [Rand] die today," he doesn't "intend to carry [Rand] on [his] shoulders, or kill Sammael." He's clearly only helping Rand because it coincides with some plan of his, not because he particularly cares about Rand's well-being. He certainly doesn't like Rand; when he falls down after the crossed-streams BF incident, Rand offers him a hand, but the Wanderer refuses "with a grimace."
5. [From the RJ aol.com chat, 27 June 1996]: "Question: There is a mystery man who helps Rand in the last chapter of ACOS...is this a new character, or have we seen him elsewhere. RJ: Well, we've certainly seen him earlier in CROWN OF SWORDS."
Given that the Wanderer must be a Forsaken (#2, #3, #4), we are left with only two suspects - Demandred and Moridin. (Osan'gar is not even an outside possibility, since he is Dashiva, and Rand would have instantly recognized him.) The physical description (#1) does not match Demandred (who is not young). In fact, the description matches Moridin quite well. From [ACOS: 25, Mindtrap, 417-418]:
"The speaker was a tall, broad-shouldered young man in black boots and breeches, and a flowing white shirt unlaced at the top, who watched her with startlingly blue eyes ..." He has a deep voice. He has a strong chin, else he'd be worthy of Graendal's collection. He looks to be just a little older than Rand, "Not many years past twenty."
The Wanderer's size, hair color, age, voice, and fashion sense all match with Moridin's, as does his TP addiction. The attention to and interference with Sammael's plans also agree with what we know Moridin (and the Watcher) have been up to. RJ's remark that the Wanderer is somebody we saw earlier in ACOS certainly works if he is Moridin. Furthermore, his remarks to Rand, which indicate that he regards Rand as a tool or a piece in a game, bring to mind Ishamael's comments to Rand in the first three books, and also Moridin's analysis of the sha'rah game in [TPOD: Prologue, Deceptive Appearances, 42-44]. All of this indicates that the Wanderer is Moridin.**
Daekyras: 2004-03-05
*That's just it, the TP comes from the DO just as the OP comes from the Creator.*
The Dark One ALLOWS people to use the true power. Only moridin has permission at the moment.
So, the chosen are still all using the OP which is supplied by the creator. If this is all Good versus Evil then why can the Evil side use the creators power source?
We don't see Rand reaching to the TP when he needs it.
Tain Shari: 2004-03-06
I really think that the whole death of the DO is a bit ludacrist. How can you kill evil, I think the DO would survive anything you could ever do to it as long as there is evil in a world. what if the power of the Creator and DO was purely based on the actions of the people/things that follow them? So the DO is getting more powerful because there is more war, disease, hate than ever before. The creators hereo to me wont kill the DO but will curb/convert his followers in such a manner that the DO doesn't have a worship base powerful enough to effect Randland and if the Dragon has to curb these number through open war well so be it. I really think the DO cannot be destroyed any more than you can stop darkness, darkness is just the absence of light, every society has elements of darkness and thats why the DO can never be destroyed, he can only be repressed.
penguindude: 2004-03-09
I believe there may be a distinction between the Dark One as a sentient being and the Dark One as a power.
As a sentient being, it seems possible the Dark One may be capable of being killed. His power has not proved unstopable, even his Chosen don't believe he's as smart as he claims (see Demandred's visit), and he doesn't seem to be able to correct his mistakes of the past even though the Last Battle has apparently been fought a thousand times before. Since the DO has been trapped outside of time for the entire series, there is no garuntee he is even immortal. Given that, it would be plausable that a new Dark One inherits the abilities of the old one with each passing Age; as Rand has inherited Lews Therin's abilities. Whether it would be Morodin, Shadar Haran, Fain, or someone else is up in the air.
As a Power, I don't think he can be destroyed. As the arguements above state, there is a need for balance in the Wheel. From a mathamatical point of view, prior to creation there had to have been nothing, aka: 0. Now, 0 can also be described as +1 combined with -1. To make the universe, the Creator need only seperate the 0 into a +1 and -1 (hense the reason no other power would be needed to create the OP and Wheel). The +1 becomes the One Power with which the world is created, and the -1 (the TP/DO) is locked away.
So I think the Dark One has to exist, but who the DO is could be changed. To use one other example: If you have 50 poinds of bricks on a scale, then to balance it you need 50 pounds on the other side. However, whether it's 50 pounds of bricks, feathers, or salt doesn't matter (so the substance can be changed without disturbing the actual balance of things).
udernation: 2004-03-16
So, penguindude, are you suggesting that Rand, as the usurper in this age, will destroy the incarnate dark one and take his place? I'm thinking that this would make an interesting prospect - if there was the whole 'sacrifice my life to save the world thing', but by rand sacrificing himself and becoming the next incarnation of evil - or perhaps, the second personality in his head is the park one taking hold, and the final transition between two personlities is the sacrificing himself for the saving of the pattern...hehe, i like, penguindude, i like! AND it's compatible with my Non-interference theory (please post it tamyrlin, please!)
~Note from Tamyrlin: I am extremely busy lately, and I apologize for theories not getting posted regularly over the last three weeks...so...I promise to try and get through ten or so this weekend. :)
Callandor: 2004-03-16
**So, penguindude, are you suggesting that Rand, as the usurper in this age, will destroy the incarnate dark one and take his place?**
The Dark One and the Creator are the only beings outside the Wheel of Time. No one, nothing, can destroy the Dark One or the Creator for this reason. There is nothing for them to attack; there is nothing for them to destroy. The Dark One and the Creator are immortal; they will always exist.
free will: 2004-03-28
I don't think the DO will be destoyed, because there has to be someone for the next AoL Merin to bore towards. He could be replaced, but if the new pet acts like the old duck, why get a new duck? More likely, since this is the last battle, is that the world is destroyed and the DO is sealed away.
To provide support for the how/why consider the following paraphrased quotes:
~"If the dark one is bound in one world, then he is bound in all. Free in one, then free in all" -Verin
~"With these [the Choedan Kal] we can challenge the creator" -Lanfear
Q. How can one challenge a creator that doesn't get involved?
A.(1) Destory the creation (DO's plan) (2) Create another creation.
If Rand can create one world where the DO is perfectly sealed, then the DO is stopped ... in all worlds. That new world will six ages later of course bore a hole in the thin spot where Rand made that world, completing the wheel of time circle. But that's as good as we could have expected.
We can also expect that weilding that much OP might break the current world, but hey we could have expected that too. And Rand might be able to bring a remenant of a remenant from the old world into the new world.
The DO could have killed Rand many times, but didn't. We have to ask ourselves why. If the DO understands Verin's prinicple, then perchance the only way he can break free is to mess up Rand's creation weave to make it so that in this new world the DO is totally free (instead of totally sealed as Rand intends).
If Rand succeeds in challenging the creator, then what could Logain do that would provide all the glory? It's cheesy but he could change his name to Adam and be part of the remenant, and do what a man's gotta do.
Remember, RJ's conceit is that the WoT be the source of all our present day myths and legends.
Callandor: 2004-03-29
**More likely, since this is the last battle, is that the world is destroyed and the DO is sealed away.**
The Last Battle is a title given to the prophecized battle of the Dragon and the "Dark One" (you know it will be Moridin since he is Ishy reborn and he is the Dark One's Champion; opposite of the Light's = the Dragon (Rand)), but the title was given by men.
Hence, this is a battle, not the LAST battle. The Wheel keeps on turnin.
mazrimashaman: 2005-04-06
well this might have been said already but i didnt want to reed them all. The dark one cannot be destroyed, to destroy something, is to remove, or erase it from the pattern, the do is not part of the pattern, therefore there is nowhere for it to go.
The Eternal Dragon: 2005-09-06
*If the Creator would grant such a gift, he would bestow it upon his champion, the Dragon Reborn. This does NOT necissarily mean Rand. It could be a hundred billion full turnings of the Wheel before it could happen, or it could happen at the Last Battle.*
One thing I can assure you is that if ever the Creator will intervene giving His Chosen the power to destroy evil forever it will be to Rand that he gives the power for the simple reason that this is the only story that RJ is writing in this world.
To the firm believers in the cyclic nature of time i would like to say that Rand al'Thor CANNOT be just another Chosen there will be something that sets him apart. (Ref: Matrix Neo is told that he is just one more anomaly but by his choices he creates a destiny that the others could not.) I do not claim that he will slay Shai'tan (in most High Fantasy novels the Enemy is not killed LOTR, etc.. obey this the only exception is the Belgariad/Malloreon.) but he will achieve some sort of end ... this will be Tarmon Gaidan THE Last Battle. Perhaps this will mean that he undoes the cyclic nature of Time which I visualize as a sort of prison for the DO (refer the Arch of Time in the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant) ending the cyclic nature of all that has been happening Chosen of the Creator fights the DO et al (again refer the Matrix where the One is defeated and Zion destroyed time and time again but Neo ends all that)
I apologise the Matrix fixation but I can't help notice certain parallels. Most of what i have mentioned is farfetched conjecture but one that I am sure of is that this time is going to be different.
Ozymandias: 2005-09-06
First off, in LOTR, Sauron IS killed. His soul is destroyed. Or his power as Maiar, it amounts to the same thing in his case.
Secondly, there is an obvious reason, already stated by maybe not explained, as to the idea of a Creator's "personal source" to rival the TP. This is that its the OP, like many say. If the Creator creates EVERYONE (Which he undoubtedly does, or condones the creation of everyone), then he technically favors everyone and therefore grants the ability to tap his power to anyone with the ability or desire (read: Channelers). The key to tapping the Creator's power source is having that spark of life which shows that the Creator condones your existence. Since the DO does not create, but rather destroys, there is no such inherent granting of access to his power, which is why such a big deal is made of him letting certain people touch the source or not.
Tangential question. If shielded, and permitted to touch the TP, could a Forsaken do so? As in, does the shield stop channeling, or does it block access to the OP only?
Callandor: 2005-09-07
**One thing I can assure you is that if ever the Creator will intervene giving His Chosen the power to destroy evil forever it will be to Rand that he gives the power for the simple reason that this is the only story that RJ is writing in this world.**
But the Creator does not intervene. Ever.
**To the firm believers in the cyclic nature of time i would like to say that Rand al'Thor CANNOT be just another Chosen there will be something that sets him apart.**
Based on what? Anything other than a movie reference that was made years after the genesis of these novels?
**I do not claim that he will slay Shai'tan (in most High Fantasy novels the Enemy is not killed LOTR, etc.. obey this the only exception is the Belgariad/Malloreon.) but he will achieve some sort of end ... this will be Tarmon Gaidan THE Last Battle. Perhaps this will mean that he undoes the cyclic nature of Time which I visualize as a sort of prison for the DO (refer the Arch of Time in the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant) ending the cyclic nature of all that has been happening Chosen of the Creator fights the DO et al**
1. Rand cannot even fight the Dark One, let alone kill him. The Dark One doesn't have a body, a thread, a soul. He's not apart of the Pattern, so there's no way in hell he can be killed by someone inside and of the Pattern.
2. It would completely destroy the entire theme of the series -- time is circular. Face it, Rand doesn't "break" the Wheel of Time. It's, again, impossible for him:
**BWB: The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: 1 - The Wheel and the Pattern
The only known forces outside the Wheel and the Pattern are the Creator, who shaped the Wheel, the One Power that drives it--as well as the plan for the Great Pattern--and the Dark One, who was imprisoned outside the pattern by the Creator at the moment of creation. No one inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern. Even those who are ta'veren can only alter, but not completely change, the weave. It is believed that if he escapes his prison, the Dark One, being a creature or force beyond creation, has the ability to remake the Wheel and all of creation in his own dark image. Thus each person, especially each of those born ta'veren, must struggle to achieve his or her own best destiny to assure the balance and continuation of the Great Pattern.**
Rand cannot do this, and it would be literary suicide for RJ to have Rand do it in any case.
Traveller: 2005-09-07
I know you're trying to get away from this idea, but I truly think that the One Power from the True Source is directly the Creator's gift. The DO give the True Power, the Creator the One Power. There is no other in my mind simply those two. Saidin and saidar are gifts from the Creator on Earth (or whatever). However I do believe that the One Power might somehow be desroyed, because when the DO dies or "dies" the True Power will no longer be accessible. In order t maintain balance, the One Power will go too. I know this means that there won't be another Age of Legends with Sho'cars and great wonders, but I think that it is just how its gonna be.
Callandor: 2005-09-08
**However I do believe that the One Power might somehow be desroyed, because when the DO dies or "dies" the True Power will no longer be accessible.**
Again, the Dark One has no body, no thread, no "soul" as far as we know, and we know he is beyond both the Wheel and the Pattern.
He is immortal. He cannot die.
**In order t maintain balance, the One Power will go too. I know this means that there won't be another Age of Legends with Sho'cars and great wonders, but I think that it is just how its gonna be.**
No One Power -- the Wheel stops turning. No time. No nothing any more.
Traveller: 2005-09-08
Yeah, all you say makes sense logically, but there are things that need to be sorted out that would be dealt with if the OP went: Aes Sedai- they are too snooty by half and think they are sooo much better than everyone else, and I have harboured a sneaking suspicion that they will all have to be brought down a few steps by something.
However I do realise that I'm probably on a sinking boat, and that it wouldn't be particularly likely (more like impossible), but its just something that I can't get out of my head.
JakOShadows: 2005-09-08
Traveller: I agree with idea of your post, but not the means. The DO can't be killed, but I was always of the thought that when the bore was sealed like the bore was never drilled, the true power cannot be reached. And as a result, the one power will not disappear. Rather I think that there is a possibility of a sort of self destruction of all the channelers after the effects of the breaking. Look at the way all the channeling powers are aimed at eachothers throats, so that means war for the most part. Let's imagine that all the societies of channelers fight until they're driven to extinction, then the ability to channel will slowly be faded out by fear/genetics.(genetics being channelers get married and having children and fear of the ability to channel from all the wars). If it is seen in this sense, I do believe it is possible for it to happen, but he creator will never take it away or else the wheel would not turn and the ability to channel could not be relearned in future ages to come.
Traveller: 2005-09-09
Thankyou for this- I was really just stumbling blindly in hope of finding a practical solution, JokoShadows. You have provided a plausible answer. Also it seems a less cruel way for it to happen, coz all the Aes Sedai will still be able to channel and not start wanting to die- including Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve of course. That was the main thing that I didn't like a bout it really, because it would be so cruel if they could no longer channel.
Thankyou very much, its times like these when I really LOVE this website!
William Seeker: 2005-09-09
I would have to agree that the Creator has another power. (the Light.) I'm not sure if the Creator would let Rand use this to kill the DO, though. Maybe, if Rand actualy had to fight the DO himself, thats what would save him, the Creator's power I mena.
The Eternal Dragon: 2005-09-10
*Let's imagine that all the societies of channelers fight until they're driven to extinction, then the ability to channel will slowly be faded out by fear/genetics.(genetics being channelers get married and having children and fear of the ability to channel from all the wars). If it is seen in this sense, I do believe it is possible for it to happen*
I believe that this will happen. I remember RJ mentioning that the world in his book was our own world but in a different age. As we can't channel now obviously the channelers die out (somehow). But in the turning of the wheel it is learned again and the Age of Legends will return
The Eternal Dragon: 2005-09-10
Reply to Ozymandias dated 2005-09-06:
*First off, in LOTR, Sauron IS killed. His soul is destroyed. Or his power as Maiar, it amounts to the same thing in his case*
It is not the same thing. In the Lost Tales it is prophecied that he will return with his Master when the Last Battle begins.
*Tangential question. If shielded, and permitted to touch the TP, could a Forsaken do so? As in, does the shield stop channeling, or does it block access to the OP only? *
A person once shielded from the OP will not be able to access the TP either. RJ said so in answer to the Week 8 question in Question a Week on his tor site.
Baean AimaDe: 2005-09-10
RJ likes to use parallel's in his Stuff So I'll approach this from the same way I see the parallel.
First - There is a HUGE biblical Parallel here. Armageddon , Creator , DO , The Jesus complex in Rand.
I'll try to explain my point without being preachy. Someone Touched on the topic that the garden of eden was a tragedy and not God's plan. This is only partially true. Remember that God being God controls all. So it was his "plan" ( after a fashion ) for the fall of man. Why? because man's imperfection draws attention to God's perfection. Thus "Glorifying God" ( I won't get into the biblical Theology of such here , but if anyone feels like debating it I'll give you my E-mail ;p ).
Second - Is there evil without the DO? Sure.. remember that even in Biblical theology, Satan ( shaitan har har ) wasn't evil before he fell. Not to say that's the same with the DO, I doubt RJ would parallel the Bible that closely.
Assuming that the Creator = God , DO = Satan , and Rand = Jesus ( which is somewhat debateable.. Maybe Logain is! ). and Tarmon Gaid'on = Armageddon.
The power that will defeat the DO at the LB is none other than Rand's Blood, the blood of Christ so to speak. Once the DO is defeated we're looking at a "millenial kingdom" Type deal, where God binds satan for 1000 years ( yes yes I realize RJ only uses sources doesn't fully imitate them ). At the end of that 1000 years Satan is loosed to wreck Havoc on the world once more.
This is kinda rambling, since it's 4am in the morning and I'm half asleep. But my point through all this. Is that The creator being the creator is Lifted up by the DO's existence. The ability to choose evil only magnifies the decision to do good. So the existence of a DO is a boon to the creator not a bane.
As to TG being The Last Battle. remember Herid fell also said while it couldn't be The last battle because of the nature of the wheel. It very well may be "A last battle" marking the end of an age. Just like armaggedon is the last battle ( but really isn't because there will be another of a sorts 1000 years after that ).
So!
1. The "special power" rand has to seal the DO is his Blood
2. The creator "allows" the existence of the DO , because without the influence of evil , there is nothing special about choosing good. or anything to seperate perfect good from not.
3. TG is a Last Battle - People from the AoL would have looked back to the last big battle ( Read.. TG in a different age ) as the last Battle that was truly fought. ( remember they knew only peace ).
4. Rand's Blood will Completely Seal the Bore. And age 4 will be our age ( the age before the AoL )
Just some thoughts!
snakes-n-foxes: 2005-09-11
I'd have to agree that you can't destroy the Dark One, and that all that will happen is that the 'bore' will be removed/healed (ala Herid Fel).
I've been wondering how it will be removed/healed, but without knowing how the bore was made AND through what it was drilled, then how can you come up with a solution ?
I know it was drilled using the One Power (but how), through the pattern (because there is a 'thinness in the pattern' at SG), and that the pattern is made up of the threads of all the souls...but more than that?
I think part of the solution has to do with the Dark One wanting to turn Rand, in order for the DO to win.
The other part I think is that Padan Fain will have a crucial part in the the sealing the bore (not intentionally of course)...back in The Great Hunt, Morraine said the Dark One may have instilled some of his intentions into Fain...and, as the cleansing of Saidin showed, anti-DO evil can be used to cleanse DO evil/taint - and Fain is Anti-DO evil.
Also, can anyone confirm if RJ said anything about Fains soul (that it had somehow become outside the pattern or some such) in an interview? I have very vague recollections of something like that.
William Seeker: 2005-09-11
The parralel idea is good, I've thought of the same myself. It seems like RJ is doing the whole trinity deal. Creator = God the Father. Rand = Jesus. Light = Holy Spirt. I mean, come on he's even got the unholy trinity going (see Revalations). DO = Satan. Mordin/Ishy = Antichrist. Shadow = False Prophet.
El Bogarto: 2005-09-12
Baean AimaDe -
I read your post, and remembered Ishamael remarking to Rand (or maybe Lews, it's been awhile) that he _knew_ him - and his bloodline - all the way back to the "First Moment" (or something like that).
Sounds like a definite biblical parallel to me as well.
Also, Shai tan-
The Gardener analogy didn't come from Lews. Lews nodded in approval to _someone else's_ thought, aka the Third Man (or whatever). This 'third' voice seems to be less crazy, more spiritual than the other two.
This thought seems to be in direct conflict with Verin's statement in TGH.
I'm with you on this one - as you say, the gardener may not weep for each blossom that falls, but he may get pretty weepy if the whole garden died overnight.
However 'the gardener' has made it clear he WILL TAKE NO PART - ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE blah blah blah.
Que?
JakOShadows: 2005-09-12
snake'n'foxes: Your idea is an interesting one, and a lot better than the others I think. But how do you suggest that Fain would help defeat the DO. And I also think that if he's trying to turn Rand his energy wouldn't be used on trying to touch the pattern; which would prevent from being sealed properly. So do think your reasoning is good. I just don't understand how fain would help.
Callandor: 2005-09-15
**I would have to agree that the Creator has another power. (the Light.) I'm not sure if the Creator would let Rand use this to kill the DO, though.**
Please give one quote of a hint, the vaguest of the vague clues to this other Power's existance. Look, it's very simple: the One Power was made by the Creator to do the things that it does (drive the Wheel amongst a few others); the Dark One has the True Power do whatever he wants. Two powers, there's a balance, "Light" to "Dark."
A third power destroys that completely and fails on two points:
1. Again, no hint or clue of anything similar to it.
2. The Creator doesn't intervene ever.
You could try to argue that it's not intervene, but the Creator would at least be taking an active role, so that's false.
**As we can't channel now obviously the channelers die out (somehow).**
An easy way is that the world of channelers is reduced to learners after they've forgotten about channeling (most likely after a breaking).
But if anything, this is doubtful to happen in the 3rd Age or the series that we will see or begin to see.
**I'm with you on this one - as you say, the gardener may not weep for each blossom that falls, but he may get pretty weepy if the whole garden died overnight.**
Why? He can just go create another one. It was their choice.
Anubis: 2005-09-15
**I'm with you on this one - as you say, the gardener may not weep for each blossom that falls, but he may get pretty weepy if the whole garden died overnight.**
**Why? He can just go create another one. It was their choice.**
Losing a garden is slightly more significant then losing a single blossom.
: 2005-09-16
Callandor, a question;
Do you think the Creator would abandon the universe of the Wheel entirely and start over from scratch, if the DO managed to bust out and poison the whole 'garden'?
I understand and agree that the Creator is a non-interventionist (at least directly – he _did_ talk to Rand, and stalled him on the whole confront-Ba'alzamon-right-here-and-now thing).
My area of confusion is that despite that I just can't see the Creator going “to h3ll with it” and allowing ~all~ of creation/reality to crash and burn if the DO wins in Rand's world, which is kinda what Verin implied would happen if the DO broke free.
You can't move on to the next blossom if the entire greenhouse is destroyed, can you?
Unless, of course, the WOT universe is separate entirely from other, parallel universes (i.e. the Finns come from a different greenhouse).
Callandor: 2005-09-16
**Losing a garden is slightly more significant then losing a single blossom.**
Again, how is it more significant, if you can just create more? I'm sure he shakes his head at all the worlds that fall to the Shadow, but he just creates more.
Darth Piemaster: 2005-10-18
its all a matter of balance i think. good and evil. if there isnt a balance then it would all fall in to chaos.
by sealing the do away hes still there so its not affecting the balance and maybe thats why the creator wont just kill him
vergere6: 2005-12-15
I think that the One Power is a neutral source, in the sense that it favours neither good nor evil. That explains how the Forsaken as well as Aes Sedai can use it. But, The True Power is an extreme version of the OP, limited to only those whose souls are bound to the Dark One. It thus stands to reason that there must be another extreme, the part of the OP reserved for those who give themselves over to the Creator completely.
Maybe...this "Good Power" is what the people of Randland think of as the "Light". As the Dragon Reborn, when he faced the forsaken for the first time(Aginor and Ishy), Rand probably tapped into this Light, the innate connection with the Creator and Creation. Remember, the Dragon Reborn is one with the land, that probably means the five flows are one for him who uses the Light. But, Rand kinda loses that instinctive connection with the Light by learning to channel the One Power, and tainted Saidin. THAT is what he probably has to relearn before the Last Battle. "To live, you must die", probably can be interpreted as "to truly live in the Light, you must die".
Any thoughts?
JakOShadows: 2005-12-16
vergere6:
The one power is the creator's power, it is what turns the wheel. The creator wants their abilities to be equal. But what he does do to give them advantage is to make ta'veren, or the mechanism that controls it. So in essence he is helping them, but its not like giving him a free pass. Rather, its like he gives them the resources and intellect to win, and he wants to see if they can do it. Not just hand them an ultimate weapon like the TP is.
vergere6: 2005-12-20
JakOShadows, what you say makes sense. But i have to ask you something here. In TEOTW, what exactly do you think happens at the end? Yes he channels, but is it Saidin?
He touches the grass and it turns to fire, he stamps and the mountains shake, he roars and it whips up a fire to consume the trollocs. This seems like more than the One Power at work, with no mention AT ALL about the taint, you'd think if he was channeling in such huge amounts of saidin, he wud feel the taint however inexperienced he was. Instead, Rand finds himself in awe of the Heat of the Light. He talks to someone, probably the Creator himself. It takes something special to make the Creator participate, and i think it was Rand going past the Saidin-Saidar split, channeling directly off of the True Source- in other words, "the Light"- that made the Creator talk.
What do you think?
Maybe the Creator's power is not separate from the OP, but is instead a part of the OP accessible to those who can find the way- in this case, Rand.
Maybe this was how Lews Therin overloaded himself. He was "one with the land" too, after all.
What say?
ec18: 2006-05-16
I don't think the dark one can be destroyed, if he could wouldn't the war of the shadow have killed him. The univeres must have balance neither absolute good nor absolute evil can reign. The only thing that can happen is he is sealed away from the world
JakOShadows: 2006-05-20
vergere6:
That was made by AS in the AoL.
tEotW, Ch 50 pg 744(paper)
"...A hundred of them made it, men and women together. The greatest works were always done so, joining saidin and saidar, as the true source is joined. They died all to make it pure, while the world was torn around them."
The book never states what it is until later, but this quote makes it clear that the saidin in the eye was made pure somehow by the AS.
Fizz: 2006-10-17
This last quote proves something to me.
There is no third power, per se, that the Creator has held in reserve, but when giving the OP to humans for use, it was split into a male and a female half. If those halves were able to be combined and used in conjunction, the result would be a stronger power than even the TP (which, correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that the TP is stronger than either saidin or saidar. Perhaps because it is not "split" like the OP?).
Weaves combining saidin and saidar made by a circle involving both men and women are referred to as having been responsible for all of the greatest achievements in the AoL. So it seems logical that if there were some way to combine them into one singular power to be used independantly from the two halves, it would be a stronger power than either saidin or saidar, or even the TP, and possibly even stronger than using saidin and saidar together in a circle. Can anyone think of any way that could happen? Not that it would really need to happen for Rand to be victorious, and there has been little to no evidence of even the possibility, yet I think it is at least plausible.
As for the creator taking away the OP after the DO is imprisoned since there will be no more TP, it could be possible, since he wouldn't have to destroy the power itself, only the knowledge of how to tap into the True Source. The OP was created to turn the wheel, and was around long before humanity learned how to channel it. Not a far stretch to say that the creator could breed it out of humanity. As evidence of that, since everyone is so fond of biblical references, humans in biblical times had powers that we do not have today. I'm not talking about miracles performed by prophets or Jesus himself, but there were humans with the ability to actually speak to the dead and call spirits back from the grave to speak with the living. Of course, this ability was considered evil, so God gave the order for all such people to be destroyed, thereby effectively breeding it out of humanity. Also when Moses was in Egypt, he had a sort of "duel" with the Pharaoh's magicians, who seemed to possess abilities that go far beyond today's "sleight-of-hand" magicians. Not to mention Simon the Sorceror mentioned in the New Testament, although we never get a glimpse as to what his abilities are. Anyway, you get the idea. Sorry for rambling.
Callandor: 2006-10-20
**If those halves were able to be combined and used in conjunction, the result would be a stronger power than even the TP (which, correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that the TP is stronger than either saidin or saidar. Perhaps because it is not "split" like the OP?).**
It's not "stronger." It just doesn't have the gender restrictions. And there is no way to combine saidin and saidar into another power or a "stronger" form, other than simply using them together to achieve the same end -- which is not what you are refering to.
**So it seems logical that if there were some way to combine them into one singular power to be used independantly from the two halves, it would be a stronger power than either saidin or saidar, or even the TP, and possibly even stronger than using saidin and saidar together in a circle. Can anyone think of any way that could happen?**
No, because it's impossible. Saidin and saidar attract and repell -- there is no way to "combine them." As we saw in the Cleansing, when saidin was pushed through a saidar tube, they repelled as far away from each other as possible (which is why saidin was "compressed" and flowed faster).
But you cannot combine them. You can only use them together for the same purpose. Jordan even said so at a signing:
**The universe is driven by saidin and saidar working against each other. They will not end up as the Light Power.**
And the Creator never intervenes. Ever.
vardene: 2006-10-21
i dont believe the DO can be destroyed from the little we've got of the creation and workings of randland.
First, DO is described as the embodient of chaos and disorder, the unmaker of order the lord of death, who is strengthened by chaos death and disorder.
The creator could not have left him free after creating the world as he would as a consequence of his nature, unmake and destroy everything.But the creator cannot kill him as well because of the nature of creation. as long as men exist with freewill, some will turn to chaos violence and disorder and this will eventually lead to the DO as happened in the age of legends."belief and order give strength" is what Fel told Rand and what the DO feared. the reason avendesorra was important in the AOL. The DO can be removed from the world of men only by promoting actions and decision among men that defeat the DO's nature. itb has to be done by men.
92ysoldier: 2008-02-10
I think that no matter what this is not the end. The wheel of time turns and each time that the Dragon is spun out he does not always work against the DO. So how does the DO always the bore always get resealed back to the point that nobody remembers that there is a dark one. Back to the point that the age of legends will begin and people will eventually see the dark one as a myth and again someone will try to bore into the true source and end up freeing him again. It cannot all rest on Rand there has to be another factor that comes into play. The only thing that can spring to my mind is balefire. It can only effect things touching the pattern so if the dark one is blasted with strong enough balefire then since he exists outside of the wheel then possibly he would be erased from everyones mind except for Rand or anyone linked to him when the balefire is created. They would write the prophesies of the Dragon. They would write the histories and they would know what is going to happen and they would pass this knowledge down so that when it happens again they would know the signs. Maybe that is what happened when the men started going mad that they knew the signs and put everything in place for when the dragon would be awakened.
Marie Curie 7: 2008-03-01
92ysoldier:
"I think that no matter what this is not the end. The wheel of time turns and each time that the Dragon is spun out he does not always work against the DO. So how does the DO always the bore always get resealed back to the point that nobody remembers that there is a dark one. Back to the point that the age of legends will begin and people will eventually see the dark one as a myth and again someone will try to bore into the true source and end up freeing him again. It cannot all rest on Rand there has to be another factor that comes into play. The only thing that can spring to my mind is balefire. It can only effect things touching the pattern so if the dark one is blasted with strong enough balefire then since he exists outside of the wheel then possibly he would be erased from everyones mind except for Rand or anyone linked to him when the balefire is created. They would write the prophesies of the Dragon. They would write the histories and they would know what is going to happen and they would pass this knowledge down so that when it happens again they would know the signs. Maybe that is what happened when the men started going mad that they knew the signs and put everything in place for when the dragon would be awakened."
RJ was asked at a book signing about whether or not the Dark One could be balefired. Here's what he said:
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Q: Why doesn't somebody just balefire the DO?
A: The quantity necessary would destroy the world.
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"Maybe that is what happened when the men started going mad that they knew the signs and put everything in place for when the dragon would be awakened."
Um, what? The male Aes Sedai went mad during the Breaking because the Dark One tainted saidin when the Bore was sealed. From the BWB:
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TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time, CHAPTER: 8 - The Breaking of the World
Though Lews Therin's campaign to seal the Bore was technically successful, it also heralded a greater disaster than any of the events of the War of the Shadow, for in the very moment of sealing the Dark One away from the world, a backblast tainted saidin even as the Companions drew upon it. Whether this was a deliberate action by the Dark One or a by-product of his efforts to stop the Bore from being sealed may never be known. In either case, this backblast lead to the greatest cataclysm in recorded time, the Breaking of the World.
Lews Therin and the sixty-eight survivors of the Hundred went insane on the instant, perhaps not even knowing that their attempt to seal the Bore had been successful. Within days, these powerful male Aes Sedai, armed with the One Power and completely out of control, began unleashing their might against anyone or anything that crossed their path or even caught their notice, leaving trails of death and wanton destruction. Thus began the Time of Madness.
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Dragon Tamer: 2008-03-05
Robert Jordan stated that the DO could be destroyed, but it would take so much balefire that the whole pattern would completely unravel ( I can't find the quote right now).
As for the creator having a separate power, maybe. But if he does, we won't hear about it. Something like that would have been mentioned earlier.
theory master: 2009-03-12
i dont have the book with me, but ishamael says when he sees rands sword of the light "you cant have that yet", obviously he knew rand would get it eventually, but knew it hadnt yet happened. this implies it is callandor (the sword, not the annoying poster on this site) and rand has it temporarily through some effect of shayol ghul/ the creator/ the power, but it is not the creators power.
theory master: 2009-03-12
read the article on the theory homepage called serving the dark one is not morally wrong or something like that. he/she talks about things like this a lot there, and you may find it very interesting