he Creator\DO Non-interference Theory
by udernation: 2004-03-16 | 1 out of 10 (2 votes)
It is said in the books countless time that the DO is trapped outside of the pattern.
My theory is that the Creator included some kind of non-intervention clause in the ‘base code' of the pattern (along with saidin and saidar, rebirth, ta'veren, and, I'm sure other laws we're not aware of.).
He and the DO are outside of the pattern.
The DO and the Creator are equal: subject to the same laws – the creator did not imprison him, he is just not allowed to influence the pattern THE SAME AS THE CREATOR.
(The imprisonment is just romantic nonsense on the behalf of the wheel's inhabitants, to make them feel a bit safer.)
He tries to break this rule, and with one broken rule, the whole pattern will go down with it - a computer program with bad coding crashes.
The reason Saidar is so powerful is that it is involved in this rule-breaking (see 'no, the other power' thread, my water filter theory), and allows more True Source to be channelled than is according to the rules - so to speak, the channelers of Saidark take advantages of 'bugs' in the creators code, created by the DO.
As ‘small' rule breakages in code can still allow the program to run, this doesn't cause the pattern to crash, BUT it contributes to bugs in the code – bubbles of evil, as explained in the books, ‘caused by the DO's nearness'
As the creator doesn't break the rules he set, he uses his Ta'veren agents – much like the ‘Agent Smith's' in the Matrix, in-built defence mechanisms of the pattern.
ALSO as he doesn't interfere, it was not his voice in EotW, but the DO – like a hacker, he needs to enter code in a certain order, and, rather than just destroying the Ta'veren agents, particularly the ‘primary agent', the Dragon, he needs these programs and ‘hacks', ie. the DO's agents in the pattern, to execute in the right order.
That was a bit of a ramble, but I think it made sense.
Any takers?
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1
Tamyrlin: 2004-04-10
The main problem I have with your theory is the following: "It is said in the books countless time that the DO is trapped outside of the pattern." You take the countless quotes about one subject, and you accept it as fact. Then you negate the other thing we are told countless times, "The DO was placed in a prison by the Creator." That is the weakest part of what you are suggesting. According to your theory, does the DO know he can't win? If the power is equal, and the world still exists, wouldn't he be getting bored by now?
2
Callandor: 2004-04-10
**The DO and the Creator are equal: subject to the same laws – the creator did not imprison him, he is just not allowed to influence the pattern THE SAME AS THE CREATOR.**
The Creator, by extent, is somewhat more powerful then the DO because he DID imprison him. RJ has said so, the people Randland say so, the Prophecies say so (I think), and the BWB says so. Odds are, it is true.
3
ilgross: 2004-04-11
I don't know RJ could be wrong, I mean he's not god is he.
Oh wait thats right he is.
4
Oatman: 2004-04-11
Ive often thought along similar lines, considering the dark ones as equals playing a game with the pattern as the board. The Creator puts the DO into the patern, than the DO has to try and get out. The key to the DO getting out and winning the game is the Rand/Lews Therin Soul, the fisher king. This would explain multiple things-why the DO dosent kill Rand strait off, instead trying to turn him, and than starts trying to kill him when he is clearly on the side of light. It would also explain the origins of the Board game involving the fisher king, as an imitation of this great game, and how the wheel works. At the end of the last age, the game resets, and starts again, on a playing board slightly modified by the actions in the previous game. This would also partially explains why the creator isnt actively doing anything- he actully is, through the work of making ta'veren and sending out heros. Rip this apart if u will, its only the ramblings of a tired crazy man.
5
heronblade: 2004-04-11
maybe you don't have to be stronger than someone else to imprison them, you just have to be better orgonised, smarter and lucky
6
Anubis: 2004-04-12
better organized.. smarter... i would put these under strength. if were defining strength as ability to win a fight. im sure arnold swartzafuggit is "stronger" then bruce lee was in that he could bench more, but if you even think for half a second that arnie could take bruce lee then you are..... *shakes head in disgust*
7
Elder Haman: 2004-04-12
1st a nitpick:
Saidar is powerful?? compared to what? Sadian? the True Power?- The One power is available due the Dark One? What?!? Okay- some problems:
I think you have watched the Matrix abit too much and are trying to impose the Wachoski Bro's world concept on RJ's world. Sorry, but Rj is not a Wachoski. Isn't it easier to assume that RJ's depictions of the relative powers of the Dark One and The Creator are accurate, rather than assuming RJ's charactors are wrong and that in reality RJ is copying the concept of a movie that came out ten years after he started writing these books?
Lets aviod these programing comparisions and stick to the weaving imagry of the books.
The "non-intervention clause" as you phrase it does not limit the Creator's power. Laws are only laws if they have penelties. It's said that if the Creator where to interfere it would break the Wheel of Time- so the Creator chooses not to interfere, because he does not want to destroy the Wheel. In other words the Creator has the power, but chooses not to use it.
The Dark One on the other hand wants to destroy the pattern, (see the theory: Before CoT: The Creator, Dark One, and Time). "Kill the Great Serpent" and all that. If the Dark One had the Same power as the Creator, why doesn't he just destroy the Pattern?
Why? Because he is imprisoned! That's why the Dark One keeps trying to escape- (If imprisionment is just "made up" why does Ishmael think about freeing the Dark One? I don't think he's worried about feeling safer.)
However, you may be onto something in your suggestion for what the "bubbles of evil" are.
8
enigma: 2004-04-13
The exact realtionship between the Creator and the Dark One is not very well defined. That is probably because the people of the Wheel can't really fully comprehend these beings who exist outside of time.
I think the DO is imprisoned by the patters. In effect its the walls of his prison but the area he occupies is still outside the pattern. As for the Creator not being able to interfeer, it seems more a choice. The Creator wants his creations to learn. If he does everything for them they can't learn. He has set up the system that they have the means to fight the DO via the One Power and the ta'avern. Its not that he could not reach down and lob a very big thunderbolt at the Dark One or his creatures but from the Creator's pov it would defeat the entire purpose of creating world - so that they can grow and learn and perhaps even surprise their maker.
9
charliec: 2004-04-13
I had thought of the bubles of evil as being small, undirected, portions of the DO's power escaping from beneath his seals. They are unpleasant, bearing his character, but not caused by his agents.
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udernation: 2004-04-16
Elder Haman: I don't mean to say that RJ was matrix inspired. That would be as crass as saying LotR was inspired by Star Wars (People actually said that when the movies came out! Stupide people!). I was simply using it as an analogy, which, i beleive, made my theory a little clearer. It is again clearer in the United Theory that is immedeately after this one. Check it out!
11
Darren: 2004-04-17
enigma, the books STATE that the DO is imprisoned OUTSIDE of the pattern.
The pattern is not his prison anyway. Everytime a man Travels he "bores a hole in the pattern. It'd be pretty darned easy to free the DO, if he was on the other side of it, and the Creator would have been some sort of fool to lay out saidin this way.
12
hassman: 2004-04-18
Some strange thoughts related to this and quantum physics.
The DO is bound outside of time, so does time pass for him/it?
Shador Logoth is the same evil, only out of phase. Is this a split personality of the DO? A separate DO (or would that be Dark Two?) Are there other manifestations? (given sufficient dimensions, an infinite number of DO's are possible) Is the creator greater because he works as one?
Assuming that Ishy was correct (this assumes he is sane, correct and not lying, so this is a bit of a stretch) then the Dragon has been turned in the past. So why is the DO bound?
13
Brendan Reborn: 2004-04-18
Haven't we seen Ishy/Moridin step outside the pattern before? If he gets his powers from the dark one (I.E. True Power), the how come the dark one can't step into the pattern?
Wait, let me guess, he has no soul? But what about people who step in TAR in the flesh? They lose a part of there soul? Does this mean they will exist outside the pattern now, therefore can't interfere it? (I.E. Rand) Just trying to get my word in guys.
14
Darren: 2004-04-19
False precepts breed false logic. Shadar Logoth is NOT the "same evil, only out of phase." It is a separate evil.
15
Callandor: 2004-04-19
**Shador Logoth is the same evil, only out of phase. Is this a split personality of the DO? A separate DO (or would that be Dark Two?) Are there other manifestations? (given sufficient dimensions, an infinite number of DO's are possible) Is the creator greater because he works as one?**
Shadar Logoth is the way it is, because it was a human created evil; people made it, not the Dark One. The people who inhabited Shadar Logoth, went so far into Dark methods, in order to fight the Dark One, that they became close to or just as evil.
**Assuming that Ishy was correct (this assumes he is sane, correct and not lying, so this is a bit of a stretch) then the Dragon has been turned in the past. So why is the DO bound?**
Two possibilities:
1. The Dragon has turned, and it was not enough to secure a victory.
or
2. Ishamael was lying. (By far the most likely in my mind)
**Wait, let me guess, he has no soul? But what about people who step in TAR in the flesh? They lose a part of there soul? Does this mean they will exist outside the pattern now, therefore can't interfere it? (I.E. Rand) Just trying to get my word in guys.**
Having no soul is being turned into a zombie like Trayal the Ogier (from TGH). No real movement on your part; you are alive, but worse off (Gray Men do not really count, since they are changed by the Dark One in order to keep higher functions without souls).
Entering TAR in the flesh, is akin to loosing your humanity; it's not like a chunk of your soul leaves every time.
Everyone living at this time, is apart of the Pattern, woven by the Wheel; the only confirmed exception (by RJ) is Padan Fain, and we do not know why (and RJ said he is temp. out of the Pattern, not Wheel).
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hassman: 2004-04-20
A key philosophical point to this argument is what is the Dark One and what is the evil of Shador Logoth.
It was described in the healing process as being the same kind of evil, only out of phase. When bound together they cancel the "effects" of each other without removing the wounds themselves. One suspects the TP was used, but that would mean two forms of the TP.
Someone (a Forsaken off the top of my head) said we are familiar with SL, an old ally, an old enemy.
For all practical purposes, the Forsaken are much more interested in killing Mordeth than any other character other than each other.
If we assume that SL is an nonhuman, nonliving extremely powerful evil (which seems to fit all of the available data) then it doesn't seem a stretch to say that it may be a form of evil similar to the DO.
17
Brendan Reborn: 2004-04-20
Can i get a link to a website where it quotes RJ saying that about fain?
That might lead into another interesting theory...
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udernation: 2004-04-21
Where is the interview about Padan Fain? I've never heard that one before.
19
Callandor: 2004-04-21
**A key philosophical point to this argument is what is the Dark One and what is the evil of Shador Logoth.**
The Dark One is the antiesis (sp?) of the Creator; he is an immortal being outside the Wheel and the Pattern, imprisoned by the Creator.
Shadar Logoth is evil because the residents there took up the Dark's own ways of evil, to fight off the Dark for the good of the Light. The evil was so great that everyone died, and Mashadar was created, along with the city being an evil area.
They are both evils, but not the same.
**It was described in the healing process as being the same kind of evil, only out of phase. When bound together they cancel the "effects" of each other without removing the wounds themselves. One suspects the TP was used, but that would mean two forms of the TP.**
Two forms of the TP? No, one evil of Rand is from the spear that pierced his side (most likely made with the TP), but the second is from Fain's dagger, which is not related to the TP in any way. And the evils were not destroyed, they were sealed apart, and could eventually destroy each other (which they are most likely doin now).
**Someone (a Forsaken off the top of my head) said we are familiar with SL, an old ally, an old enemy.**
Aginor said that, and he most likely meant the Dagger, but it could be something/one else.
**For all practical purposes, the Forsaken are much more interested in killing Mordeth than any other character other than each other.**
Not really.
**TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 13 - Wonderful News
"Mesaana is absent again?" Moridin said instead of answering. "A pity. She should hear what I have to say." Plucking the rat from his shoulder by its tail, he watched the animal wave its legs futilely. Nothing except the rat seemed to exist for him. "Small, apparently unimportant matters can become very important," he murmured. "This rat. Whether Isam succeeds in finding and killing that other vermin, Fain. A word whispered in the wrong ear, or not spoken to the right. A butterfly stirs its wings on a branch, and on the other side of the world a mountain collapses." Suddenly the rat twisted, trying to sink its teeth into his wrist. Casually, he flung the creature away. In midair, there was a burst of flame, something hotter than flame, and the rat was gone. Moridin smiled.**
Even Moridin thinks of Fain (Mordeth merged with Fain, but Fain is in and of himself, not Mordeth) as more of an annoyance, then a true danger. The Forsaken center on Rand, Mat, Perrin, people they associate with, and themselves and the title of Nae'blis.
**If we assume that SL is an nonhuman, nonliving extremely powerful evil (which seems to fit all of the available data) then it doesn't seem a stretch to say that it may be a form of evil similar to the DO.**
Similar yes, because it is an evil; but it is not a part or variation of the Dark One's evil.
20
hassman: 2004-04-22
I get back to my philosphical question, what is the evil of Shador Logoth. I believe there is mention that this evil was not created by Aridhol but was something older, this would be supported by the old ally comment, certainly in this rotation it wasn't an ally. If I am remembering and inferring correctly, that means this is not necessarily human created. As we know of only one other nonhuman evil entity, to assume that they are related is not a stretch, but not a guarantee (which puts it it the question/theory category, not proven fact) Fundemental theory of research: All theories which explain all known facts are equally valid. Theories are then valued by their predictive quality. (any guesses who works in R&D??)
The evil in Fain, Mashadar, Ordeith, the dagger I assume to be the same. What power source does it have?? We assume not the OP, and we have seen only one other power source, so why not something similar to the TP. (this is a theory, so I know I am making assumptions, I am looking for references contradicting my assumptions)
As to Fain being the biggest PITA (Pain in the ...) to the shadow, who else is marked for death and not attacked at all costs? Perrin has at least one DF (Aram) at his shoulder, Mat probably does (Noal/Jain), Egwene certainly does, Elayne does. Ishamael doesn't visualize himself playing both sides of the board for no reason. All of the good guys right now are being set up...Rand being the possible exception. (from the "under my thumb" comments about Egwene, he is doing unforeseen things). I have suspected that Fain was what the megapack was looking for. (Maybe this will be my first real theory, oh ah)
This leads to another oddball theory: Was there a DF watching Tuon? The possible list is short, but we have the Bloodwatch banner general, who goes out of his way to stay with her, her maid with the cleavage, ditto, and her former Voice. I am in the Anath->Semirhage camp, but one would think that she would have had a watcher before that.
Going back to the top, a key question to the DO NI theory is explain the evil in Shador Logoth.
21
dragonsceptor: 2004-04-26
I don't think the DO is the source of all evil. I think that men invent plenty of evil w/out needing assistance. For instance, Greed, Pride, Murder, etc. While the DO may inspire his followers to greater deeds of evil, the seeds of the evil are within the individual. I think that the evil of SL is an extreme example of man's evil. Whereas the DO inspires greater evil in his followers, I believe that the people of SL inspired greater and greater evil in each other until the evil took on a life of it's own. Ishy talking about SL being an old ally does not have to mean AOL or earlier. It could just as well mean a long time ago in the third age. When this evil started, it was an ally against the light. However, as it grew in strength and began to rival the DO's (notice I said began to rival not rival) influence, it became an enemy because it was no of the DO.
22
silverwolf: 2005-09-26
I agree that Shadar Logoth is a man-made evil, the worst of humanity. For Aginor to call it an ancient enemy and an old ally, or whatever he said, would be in much the same way that the conquistadors would refer to diseases they brought that wiped out the native American populations that they conquered--an ally only in that it aided the war effort. Shadar Logoth, with its suspicion and hate for the rest of mankind, certainly aided the Shadow's war effort through the discord among humans that it bred, but it was directly opposed to the Shadow as well. (on a side note, this direct opposition to the shadow is demonstrate by the pulsating of the wounds in Rand's side--point and counterpoint, having similar effects on Rand but opposing each other)
23
Rodel Ituralde: 2006-02-10
Ok, where did it say that Aram was a DF for sure? Correct me if im wrong but I dont remember reading this.
24
JakOShadows: 2006-02-11
It doesn't say for sure, but there was a tinker at the DF get-together in the prologue of tGH. So it just seems kind of logical that the one tinker that was turned to violence and meets Perrin is a darkfriend. But there is no absolute proof. Just circumstantial evidence. For example, when Aram attacks Perrin in KoD. He was twisted by Maseena against Perrin, but Maseena could have been twisted by Demandred and such like. So in short, there is no solid evidence, but a lot of suspicious connections that hint at it.
25
Callandor: 2006-02-11
If anything, Aram's reasoning for why he tried to kill Perrin is proof he wasn't a Darkfriend. Aram thought Perrin was Shadowspawn, because he was convinced of it by Masema, and some of Perrin's previous actions (like hanging the Dragonsworn back in The Path of Daggers -- yes, this goes back that far). That he had to be convinced of it to attack Perrin shows that he really was a good-intentioned, just skewed, person. Aram was a Light-follower with some mental problems due to losing everything he knew and understood in the world, and then seemingly to lose that again.
26
Fizz: 2006-10-17
Hassman: The DO is not imprisoned outside of time, but outside of the pattern. In fact, the DO says himself that even he cannot step outside of time. Therefore I would say that time passes normally for him/it, although the DO's perception of time, him being an immortal being and all, is likely not quite the same as ours.
I don't believe that it is impossible for either the DO or the Creator to interfere with humankind or the pattern, yet the Creator, in His infinite wisdom, may know that if He were to directly interfere, it would cause more harm than good (I posted this in a similar theory earlier as well). The pattern is always trying to achieve a balance, so if the Creator were to interfere directly, perhaps that would be just the event that would break the DO free from his prison and allow him to also freely touch the pattern. Makes sense to me, at least.
27
Callandor: 2006-10-20
**The DO is not imprisoned outside of time, but outside of the pattern. In fact, the DO says himself that even he cannot step outside of time. Therefore I would say that time passes normally for him/it, although the DO's perception of time, him being an immortal being and all, is likely not quite the same as ours.**
The Dark One is beyond the Wheel and Pattern. Since the Wheel is time itself, the Dark One is beyond time. However, when he's working to alter the situation with his minions, such as in the Rahvin case, he has to work within the Pattern -- hence why he cannot go beyond time to save Rahvin then.
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mb: 2008-09-18
I would say that the Creator does intervene at times. The people with "special" gifts (Min's Viewings, wolf brothers, sniffers, channelers, Dreamers, Foretellers, taveren detectors, etc) is a good indicator of that. That there are taveren is another indicator.
The bubbles of evil I think are more closely related to the weakening of the Seals. How else could the Dark Lord release them if the Seals remained around the prison?
As for the voice being the Dark Lord's, that to me is doubtful since the Dark Lord seems to only speak at Shayol Ghul and Rand does not seem to be there at the time.
29
terez: 2008-09-22
RJ has confirmed that the Creator does not interfere. This doesn't extend to things that were set in motion at Creation, such as the Wheel's ability to spin out Heroes and ta'veren, or people being born with talents. But the Creator cannot directly interfere.
