Tamyrlin: 2011-08-25

While I'm still open to non-literal interpretations too, this is the best literal interpretation of twice-dawning, along with the connection to Breaking the World and Rand's death that I've read. Balefire and one-with-the-land, it does have a nice ring to it that doesn't require mental gymnastics to fit well within the scope of what RJ's told us time and again. I like Moiraine being placed into the role of executioner and I think I even wrote a small bit of fan fiction back in the day regarding Moiraine killing Rand. I should go back and see if I can find it. Anyway, nicely put together. It might even explain the Perrin viewing in TEoTW and the flowering trees, that he might be in a place where there are trees that from one moment to the next are now flowering around him.

kielbasaj: 2011-08-25

Written like this, I admit I find it much easier to understand and believe. Full of concise points that have me agreeing with almost every part, except I still just don't see the earth's rotation reversing. If it turns out to be true, I'll be surprised, but I won't be disappointed. It has to happen some way, and this is the closest way I've read to making sense.

Geofram jr: 2011-08-25

First time back to theoryland since starting medical school (almost 4 yrs, the wheel turned and my old login doesn't work anymore) and this gem is the first theory to greet me.

Still not super clear on the methodology of why the sun would dawn 2 times because Rand dies by balefire. My thought is you could incorporate another branch and somehow tie in his survival/ressurection/body swap/faked death as per the currrent best theory. His death sends the earth back, but his "survival" as the aelfinn put it, starts it to rolling again?

Paraprosdokian: 2011-08-25

A well argued theory. There is, however, one thing you could clarify for me.

What is the evidence that Rand's dark mood is spoiling the food and not the Dark One's growing influence on the world a la the never-ending summer? Rand's more enlightened presence can hold back the spoiling of food - but doesn't food start spoiling again once he leaves?

terez: 2011-08-25

@Paraprosdokian - Brandon said so. ;) He said so in one of the quotes I provided, but here's another with more detail:

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Roseville, MN 30 October 2009 - jharoldson reporting

I...asked Brandon a question regarding Graendal possibly not being dead. I started by saying that Graendal was ordered to keep Arad Doman in chaos. After she was killed Rand was forced out of Arad Doman because all of the food he brought spoiled all at the same time, not in random intervals like had happened before due to the Dark One's touch. My question to Brandon is was this food spoilage caused by the Dark One or could it have been a strong channeler with inverted weaves, perhaps someone who was ordered to make sure that Rand's plans in Arad Doman failed?

Brandon told me explicitly that this was not caused by someone channeling but instead it was caused by Rand. Robert Jordan evidently left strong notes regarding the fact that the quote we heard early on in the story from Thom about "The Dragon is one with the land and the land is one with the Dragon" will be emphasized towards the end of the story. When people complained that only bad ta'veren things happened in Bandar Eban when Rand was there with no offsetting good things this was an example that as Rand has hardened and become darker the land has also grown more dark. The spoiling of all the food at once was also caused by the darkness in Rand.

There is no evidence that food starts spoiling again after he leaves a place, now that he's sane.

terez: 2011-08-26

@Geofram - (Sorry, I responded to Pap. first because his comment was visible on the home page and yours wasn't.) I don't think it's really necessary to tie in his resurrection to the balefire, at least not by method. On the Blood on the Rocks page I linked at the end, I talked about the resurrection theories, and I favor the idea that Nynaeve will rip him out of Tel'aran'rhiod. From this theory, I could make some observations on possible timing, etc., but it's really getting into heavy speculation territory at that point. The Moiraine part of this theory is also getting into speculation territory, but not so much; most of this theory is just based on logical necessity. There's no other way I can see to interpret the prophecy without taking serious liberties with the meanings of the words.

As for the methodology on it, Rand is one with the land. I don't think the earth would disappear if he was balefired, obviously, but this is the only possible way to interpret it literally. When Rand is balefired, everything he did before he died will be undone, back to the point where his thread was burned back. Since he's One With the Land and all, that might well include the rotation of the earth. It's either that, or a non-literal fulfillment. Beyond that, I try not to worry too much about the problems with the mechanism; we could nitpick it to hell and back, but I think it's pretty solid - solid enough for a fantasy book, anyway. ;)

Myth: 2011-08-26

I like the Moiraine portion and like your evidence, it does seem to fit. I agree with Tamyrlin though that I am still open to non-literal interpretations. I understand your argument with Moiraine Balefiring him but I am not sure you convinced me yet. It's an incredibly strong theory and I greatly enjoyed it. I am now thinking about the twice dawning day more literally but still...

Over all though Terez good job. I always enjoy your stuff.

The Unreasoner: 2011-08-26

Well presented, well argued. A more distilled and refined version of the ideas put forward in the thread. Especially like Moiraine's role. And how the idea of Dark Rand isn't used too heavily. However, it just came to me that there might be a substantial issue with theory, due to the timing. Given that Jordan allegedly knew the end of the story from the start, and that the 'twice dawns' prophecy occurs early on, Rand being balefired is likely impossible, unless the world transitions to linear time.

From the following quote:

blindillusion: Is there any way for someone to be removed completely from the Pattern?

Brandon: (Sorry I cannot put out his precise words, but here is the gist) – Jordan started by having balefire do this, but he later debunked this theory by saying someone killed by balefire can be reborn at some point. We currently know of nothing/no method that will completely remove someone from the Pattern.

- I thanked him and turned to walk away at this point, so that he could continue with the signing. But he called me back and commented that: The wolves in the Wolf Dream. We know that in the Wolf Dream something can be completely removed from the Pattern. (Again, not his exact words, but this pretty close. Perhaps J.D can back me up here. He was there.)

Perhaps this issue can be rectified, it could depend on how early Jordan changed the nature of balefire, to what extent the ending was known, or even some deus ex machina.

terez: 2011-08-26

It's not an issue. RJ said that balefire is not the permanent death of the soul. Barry indicated that he didn't have Brandon's precise words - he was just paraphrasing, so don't read too much into his phrasing. There is nothing to indicate that RJ ever changed his mind about the effects of balefire.

The Unreasoner: 2011-08-26

Yes, RJ did say that balefire does not prevent rebirth. But that was only after TPoD. And there is evidence that RJ changed his mind, in that very quote. It is far from definitive, but simply ignoring the implications because it was paraphrased...that seems to avoid the issue. Why would blindillusion(Barry?) mention balefire at all, unless Brandon did? Why would Brandon mention balefire in that context unless there was cause? And while the BWB is consistently regarded with skepticism, it does lend credence to the theory that RJ once used balefire differently:

This weapon was used liberally for a year by both sides—until they discovered its hidden cost. The searing energy of balefire did more than kill or destroy—it actually burned threads from the Pattern. Anything destroyed this way actually ceased to exist before the moment of destruction, leaving only a memory of deeds no longer done and souls forever erased from the Pattern. Not only that; whatever had been done because of those vanished actions also no longer had been done. The greater the power of the balefire, the further back in time its victim ceased to exist. During the year of unrestricted use, entire cities were burned from the Pattern, and the world and its universe were threatened by the broken and loose threads. Reality itself was in danger of unraveling.

Other than the fact that the reliability of the BWB is questionable, Tamyrlin correctly pointed out that the "Pattern" in question may refer to the Pattern of the Age, and not the Great Pattern itself.

But, as the question involves the consistency and reliability of the nature of balefire itself, it does seem appropriate to look in the BWB. We are, of course, looking for errors and inconsistencies. I realize that none of this is definitive; but to simply ignore it, instead of offering potential explanations, seems unwise.

For instance, maybe the two dawns were not considered important or integral, and so "knowing the ending" is a non-issue. Or perhaps the redefining of balefire predates the writing of the two dawns prophecy in TGH. Maybe (though I doubt it) RJ redefined balefire over this very issue, to allow the Dragon to be balefired, and the day to dawn twice.

It is obviously an issue, how big of one is debatable. Such a narrow interpretation of evidence, of what constitutes evidence, will weaken your theories.

terez: 2011-08-26

I don't care about your opinion on how strong or weak my theories are. You can interpret that quote however you like.

FerDeLance: 2011-08-27

"... very non-literal interpretations" - This whole theory is metaphysical rather than literal.

Literal - Rand breaks the world, the planet shifts on its axis through 90 - 180 degrees, day dawns twice.

I also don't understand the Moiraine balefire when Alivia is supposed to help Rand die.

terez: 2011-08-27

Alivia is supposed to help Rand die, not kill him. She can help in many ways. Could be as simple as telling Moiraine where he is; could be as simple as being part of the circle assuming Moiraine needs one. That's why I said I think she's a red herring. But this theory is as literal as you can get - every bit as literal as the scenario you proposed (and more likely IMO - there's no reason to believe that Rand is capable of physically shifting the planet that way).

Ashaman Leyrann Gaidin: 2011-08-28

@Ferdelance
Maybe Alivia links with Moiraine, giving her the power to balefire Rand...

wantfear: 2011-08-28

I got a question...is there some sort of messaging system on this forum that i have yet to have noticed? Also, how could i get in touch with Sanderson to throw a question at him?

Kamaul: 2011-08-28

Rand's nature as ta'veren is why people call the Dragon "one with the land." Ta'veren nature only does possible things.

Myth: 2011-08-28

I've been pondering the theory a lot the last few days and regardless of what balefire may or may not do I have a confusion that I hope we can clear up.

The main point of your theory is that when Rand is balefired the earth with rotate or somehow time will shift backwards allowing the dawn to come twice in a day. Yet unless I am mistaken in my understanding of it, that is not consistent with the nature of balefire. When we have seen it used in the series thus far it erases the actions done up to a point, but not the time itself. When Mat is fighting off the Darkhounds and Rand uses balefire to save him time didn’t reverse, it simply erased those events.

Furthermore, it seems to me that the amount of "time" you erase events back is based on the power of the channeler. For example say it is 9:30 and my dog gets run over by a car. I get so angry I chase after the car and finally catch up by 9:45. I use balefire on them in anger and also to revive my dog. Assuming I am strong enough to cause 15 minutes of action to undo it would still be 9:45 when I am done. My dog might be alive because I erased the car and driver from the pattern but time, that most elusive of elements, did not reverse, only the actions of the last 15 minutes.

Here is another way to think of it. Balefire erases parts of the pattern. If I erase that driver, aside from killing him I erase the deeds he has done. Since I am weaker, I only erased the deeds he did in the last 15 minutes. Rand could have caused a greater rewinding of the persons actions, or events caused by them. But it has no affiliation with time. Rand might affect actions he did 3 years in the past because he is so powerful, which would really screw up the pattern as it tries to right itself, but he did not erase time.

That is my confusion. Looking at the examples we see of balefire being used, and looking at the quote about balefire The Unreasoner gives us, balefire doesn’t affect time in the sense that it reverses it. It affects an action up to a certain time limit based on the power of the channeler.

I genuinely enjoy your theory and I do think Moiraine will have a massive role that could easily involve killing Rand to save the world. She got other answers we are ignorant of, plus most likely gained knowledge during her captivity among the snake and fox people (forgot the names Aelfin or something and too lazy to look it up). Yet I don’t see how, even if she does balefire Rand it could serve to do anything other than erase actions of his up to the limit of her power. Maybe Rand makes a bad choice, or gets taken over by Mordin when they merge, it could be anything. If she is there she may balefire him, but that will only erase the actions. If she balefires him 10 minutes after dawn, when she is done its still 10 past. I know you are using the Rand connected to the land thing, but I just don’t see how it could cause this action. It would be a singularly unique case because up to this point we have not seen balefire reverse time.

I look forward to hearing everyone’s thoughts.

The Unreasoner: 2011-08-28

@Kamaul
It is generally accepted that Rand's ta'veren nature is not related to being "one with the land." In Apples First, the events that occurred are quite clearly impossible under normal law.

@Myth
She isn't arguing that time will flow backwards or reverse. Time will stay the same. The Earth is to revert to a previous state, including its rotation. It is consistent with what we know of balefire, provided that the Fisher properties are as Terez believes. Essentially, the Earth's rotation is a function of the Dragon's existence, according to the theory.

terez: 2011-08-28

As I said already in the theory, I'm not suggesting Rand has a link with Time itself. Only with the land. Since he is one with the land, the earth's rotation will revert, but this has nothing to do with time beyond the normal effects of balefire. Time doesn't change; just the position of the earth. I know it's confusing because our notions of time are tied up with the rising and setting of the sun, but we're talking about the planet itself reverting to its former state, not time reversing. The event that is being erased is the rotation of the planet. Hopefully that clears up your confusion.

terez: 2011-08-28

@Wantfear - There is a messaging system for the home page, but I think you need a premium account to use it. If you want free messaging, join the forums. (This is not part of the forums, and they have a separate registration.) Also, the best way to get Brandon is on Twitter; he answers questions most often from there.

Myth: 2011-08-28

That does clear it up assuming Rand is that intimately tied to the land. The action would be the rotation of the land so when the backfire affect happens it would need to reverse that. Thanks for clarifying.

terez: 2011-08-28

@Unreasoner - The earth's rotation is presumably only a function of his existence so long as he is alive. Obviously, the earth will eventually start turning again when he dies permanently, but it might stand still the whole time he is dead this time around (before he is resurrected). (That would fit with the summer solstice illusion of the sun standing still for three days, except that there would presumably be no sun until he was resurrected...and Team Jordan is being dodgy on the chronology, so we're not sure if the solstice has passed.) It may be that after the Bore is sealed, his connection with the land will fade (as it seems to have grown over the course of the series). He was connected to the Land for sure as early as the Eye of the World (damn, I should have included that in the theory): when he won against Aginor and Ishamael, and the Blight receded, and the interminable winter ended and spring came to the Land. But there's nothing to say he was linked to it before then, other than the fact that there weren't any anomalies that we know of before the Dark One started screwing with the weather, and Rand probably had a relatively normal childhood. Maybe when the cutworm got into Bili Congar's fields, it was really because Rand was having a bad day.

The Unreasoner: 2011-08-29

@Terez
Or it could just be a function of his existence while he is within reality/time. Normally Rand is within either Randland or Tel'aran'rhiod. It may be that that for the period of time between Rand's balefiring and his actual death, he is nowhere. I would rather have a single cause for the Earth's rotation, if possible.

I obviously have a few issues with this theory, but none of them concern the nature of balefire.

terez: 2011-08-29

kielbasaj brought up a good point on the forums which I forgot to address in the theory. He asked if the Third Oath would prevent Moiraine from balefiring Rand. I'll just quote my response here:

This was one of the things I considered before TOM came out when I was writing up the theory (which I never published, and which had nothing to do with the twice-dawning day in my mind at the time). She might be able to convince herself that Rand is a Darkfriend. (This seems most likely to me.) She might be able to convince herself that she's not using it as a weapon (in that case I think Rand would probably have to ask her to kill him, which seems less likely). She might have asked the Eelfinn to release her from the Third Oath, in which case she would have had to ask for a replacement oath, or use her third wish to ask the Eelfinn to make sure she retained the ageless face, since that requires three oaths according to RJ. (They might have simply had a binder on hand; that is very likely according to what we know about them.) Or, it may be that Mat only saw what he expected to see in Moiraine's face, or that Brandon/Team Jordan blipped (the last option being rather unlikely).

wantfear: 2011-08-30

If i wasn't still a youngling would i have access to it?

Aulis Vaara: 2011-08-30

I'm with Myth on this one. Furthermore, causing the earth to stop turning is a very bad idea from a Physics standpoint. Well, unless you want to be catapulted into space at ginormous speeds.

Lorcin: 2011-08-31

Don't personally hold with the whole earth spinning backwards thing but apart from that a very good theory

I think that either the second dawn will be when the skies over the blight stop being stormy or that balefiring Rand will have a different effect then everyone else (I don't think anyones ever balefired a tarvan before)

Truthless: 2011-08-31

Could it just be that the dawn comes twice because of Travelling?

For instance: if Rand (He Who Comes With The Dawn) and his armies Travel to the Aiel waste as the sun rises there, the could win some battle then Travel to Shayol Ghul as the dawn once again comes.

As far as I know, Randland folks haven't noticed a difference in the time of day depending on where they Travel. So the dawn coming twice in this fashion may be a shocking event.

Tomp: 2011-08-31

This is a very simple thought/explanation and probably wrong. It only deals with some of the mentioned prophecies here.

The dragon is the prince of dawn.
Rand arrives at Shayol Ghul at dawn. (The prince of dawn, he who comes with the dawn)
Rand is killed/dies.
Exists in the dream world (can't bother with the spelling of it).
Either he is ripped out by someone (as Birgitte was) or he is spun out immediately and born as an infant by someone present at Shayol Ghul.
When he arrives again then the prince of dawn arrives two times the same day (the day dawns twice).

But as I said I am probably wrong. Many of my predictions have been ass gravy up until now.

Kamaul: 2011-08-31

#28@Truthless
No, the reason for dawning twice cannot be Traveling. The prophecy specifically states that a DAWN comes twice, nothing more. Traveling, unless everybody in the world Traveled west, the prophecy wouldn't apply.

#18@The Unreasoner
It may be generally accepted as incorrect, but it is still the most likely possibility. Why were ta'veren spun out? The answer would be to combat the power of the Dark One. By the Dark One's power, food had been spoiling everywhere. Near ta'veren, and most particularly Rand, the Dark One's power is pushed back. Furthermore, this is supported by the fact that food near Perrin doesn't spoil as quickly as everywhere away from him. What commonality do Rand and Perrin have with each other that around both of them food doesn't spoil as quickly?

Kamaul: 2011-08-31

Also, Terez, I recommend you put your theory about breaking the seals onto the theory tiles instead of just the Message Board. It will probably be given more notice than it has now.

kielbasaj: 2011-09-01

@28 I stated this in Terez's message board thread. It made sense to me, though looking back it is rather simple and unfulfilling.

However a change in time has been noted when Aviendha first Traveled to Seandar, I believe it was night as opposed to day?

The Unreasoner: 2011-09-01

@Kielbasaj
There are noted time changes in that scene. It was day in Seanchan when they left, but before morning in Cairhien. And There are other instances too:

“You try entering Tel’aran’rhiod while half-asleep in a saddle,” Egwene said dryly. She seemed to flicker. “It is morning in the Three-fold Land, and we are on the move. I had to talk Amys into letting me come at all, but I was afraid you would be worried.”

@Kamaul
You are arguing the wrong point. Rand is not 'one with the land' because of his ta'veren nature. Ta'veren may prevent food spoilage (or at least slow it), but that is all 'possible'. Rand does some things that are almost certainly impossible; for instance, causing apple trees to bear fruit twice in a season, the second time being profoundly accelerated. These impossible things are unexplained by ta'veren. And it is strongly implied (if not absolutely confirmed) that this is due to the Dragon being 'one with the land'. Ergo, your statement in comment #16 has some issues.

Kamaul: 2011-09-02

"You are arguing the wrong point. Rand is not 'one with the land' because of his ta'veren nature."

Nothing is the wrong point unless it has been proven otherwise. There has been nothing to disprove my point, such that it is impossible, otherwise it would be accepted fact, and we would not be arguing about it.

"Ta'veren may prevent food spoilage (or at least slow it), but that is all 'possible.' Rand does some things that are almost certainly impossible; for instance, causing apple trees to bear fruit twice in a season, the second time being profoundly accelerated. These impossible things are unexplained by ta'veren."

I would like to remind you that I never said straight out that ta'veren influence could be responsible for the happenings in Apples First. I merely theorized that ta'veren influence was what allowed Rand to be 'one with the land,' just saying.

If you had truly been reading Apples First, you would know that the trees were still giving off fruit, just that the fruit being produced rotted almost immediately, due to the Dark One's touch. As for either new fruit growing at such velocities or the fruit being cured of rotting, that may not be explained by ta'veren, but it can be explained by the One Power.

"And it is strongly implied (if not absolutely confirmed) that this is due to the Dragon being 'one with the land.'

There is no implication whatsoever. By the way, it definitely has not been confirmed. If I am wrong about such implication being nonexistent, then could you quote it for me?

"Ergo, your statement in comment #16 has some issues."

Only one, I made the same mistake as you in saying that ta'veren influence IS why Rand is called 'one with the land.' I should have said 'is most likely why.' Other than that, I see no need for revision.

The Unreasoner: 2011-09-04

Fair points. I am interested in the ta'veren/one with the land debate. What phenomena are caused by one, and what by the other? Or both? Neither? Which came first? How do they interact?

One of your statements has me wondering if ta'veren is a prerequisite to being "one with the land", or at least to the expression of it. I am vetting my theory on this very issue at the moment, would you be interested in continuing this in the forums?

The Unreasoner: 2011-09-04

Edited to add:
I would appreciate your input, especially because you seem to have a notably different take on the issue.

Kamaul: 2011-09-04

Sorry, I never post on the Forums and only read them if it is linked to. They are too disorganized. I would never be able to find what I'm looking for.

csarmi: 2011-09-05

Terez, what about Hinderstap and the pattern being reset there every morning?

greywind57: 2011-09-05

Interesting theory.

I have thought that the 'twice dawning day' is not one day, but two. Twice the dragon's blood is shed. Lews Therin at what became Dragonmount, mourning his lost Ilyena. Once for birth; Rand at Shayol Ghul.

That or the phrase is figurative language. That the second dawning is brilliant light coming through a fading cover of darkness. Like though clouds. Or a brilliant flash of light, bright as the sun. Something similar in appearance to the blinding explosion from an atomic weapon.

Geofram jr: 2011-09-06

The prophecy says the Dragon is one with the land, not ta'veren.

kingkaiser: 2011-09-07

@Greywind57
I wonder if RJ was a Pink Floyd fan. From the Final Cut.

" two suns in the sunset, could be the human race is run..."

Really though, I guess it could be possible that Rand does something that flares up the sky with the one power, or some type of balefire blowback that does the same thing. We shall see.

Kamaul: 2011-09-07

#40 @Geofram Jr
Really? Now tell me, in which prophecy does it state that the Dragon is one with the land? Are you sure it is not just a metaphor for some other thing such as ...ta'veren?

The Unreasoner: 2011-09-07

@Kamaul
It's an interesting comment, isn't it? It only would have relevance if he read the comments, but would only be posted if he did not.

@Terez
After contemplating some of the points raised in the balefire thread, it occurs to me that this theory does not provide a "literal" explanation. If the Earth reverts to a previous rotation due to balefire, the first sunrise never would have occurred, it would be like a mass hallucination. Which is not to say that it is a bad metaphorical explanation.

Maybe it just refers to Rand entering the 'stage', in a sense. If Rand's blood being shed is the same event as the blood on the rocks, and occurs with the death demanded by the Aelfinn, Rand's possible resurrection (maybe by Nynaeve's actions, as she will most likely be at Shayol Ghul) could fulfill the prophecy. The Prince of the Dawn re-enters the world stage.

NargsBrood: 2011-09-08

She realized later in TEOTW that death would not be enough on its own to save the boys from the Dark One:

Moiraine doesnt know that Baelfire prevents the Dark One from "catching" someones soul. Also, Can the Dark One "catch" someone's soul if he is not linked to them like he is with the forsaken?

wantfear: 2011-09-08

@ Kamual i can't say specifically what prophecy it's in being as i have none of my books, but i specifically remember Thom saying in the eye of the world "the dragon is one with the land, and the land is one with the dragon." Given that the land and everything in it is part of the pattern, it would make sense that taveren nature could affect the surrounding area to some extent. But that is far from being one with the land as rand is.

Geofram jr: 2011-09-09

@ Kamual:
I am 2500 so miles from my books, so all I have access to is the coool interview compendium from Terez to quote from. (And my "smart" phone is being difficult with my attempts to cut and paste)

This is a twitter between Brandon and Azral hanon. He asks this very question and Brandon says it is a function of being the dragon, and not in his ta'verenism. In another interview he says that LTT also had the same relationship with the land.

We also have no evidence that any other ta'veren do anything like that. They seem to be more for correcting human events. Can you cite something to say that they do or have?

Kamaul: 2011-09-10

Okay, your link leads to a nonexistent page. As for the other ta'veren, I can cite that food around Perrin doesn't spoil as easily as away from him. It isn't mentioned whether the food spoils at a normal rate or just slower than elsewhere, but you get the point. I couldn't find anything speaking for Mat, but that should be enough.

Kamaul: 2011-09-10

And, I have found the prophecy.

A Crown of Swords: Header
There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land. Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield. He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow. Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love.

- From a much-disputed translation of The Prophecies of the Dragon by the poet Kyera Termendel, of Shiota, believed to have been published between FY 700 and FY 800.

Now that that search is done, can you be sure one with the land is not a metaphor for ta'veren? The next few sentences in the prophecy seem to imply that.

Dragon Tamer: 2011-09-11

In terms of the spoilage, it can't be caused by Rand's temperament. If that were true no other food would spoil after his change, however Rand actually states that this isn't true. I am no where near my books for a quote but Rand mentions his preseance keeps the food from spoiling for a time. Obviously it has something to do with something else, say a certain Dark One touching the world?

In terms of the day dawning twice, wouldn't it make more sense if it was talking about how the new age would begin when Rand wins? All we ever hear through the series is how evil Balefire is and how no one should ever use it.Why would RJ/BS change their tune in the last chapters of the series, it just doesn't match up. If the pattern was affected as bad as it was when Rand used the giant Balefire beam, how would the pattern even still be around after the one piece that is holding all of the pattern together is torn out?

darortega: 2011-09-12

I'm new here, so please pardon me if I make a newbie error. (Please don't flame me!)

Here are a few observations and comments I have, regarding the theory and subsequent comments/arguments. Sorry if it’s too long.

1. The prophecy specifically says, "The Dragon" is one with the land. This does not exclude the possibility of the unstated "and any other ta'veren", but have we seen any changes in the land around Mat or Perrin? (I don’t count the food spoilage because I feel the food is not part of “the land”. The grain was harvested, the meat was slaughtered, etc; it was disconnected from its growing process, and so disconnected from the land.) When Perrin had all the refugees to feed, fields full of grain didn't suddenly sprout. He couldn't even get grass to grow to feed the horses. He had to find a town with grain to sell.

In “Apples First”, the apples are all on the ground - they all fell overnight. Then when Rand shows up, the bad apples melt into the ground and new apples grow. (Is it important that the accelerated growth stops when they are ripe, and doesn't continue through to withering and falling?) There is no "chance" that an entire orchard would re-blossom and produce fruit – all in moments. This is a manipulation of the land. Later, Rand checks the grain on the Sea Folk ship and finds all good grain. This is ta’veren; there is a chance that the good grain could have been missed and only the bags with bad grain had been opened.

One last thought on this point - were there any stories of Artur Hawkwing causing trees to produce fruit or grain to grow? He was as strong a ta'veren as Rand. But he was not The Dragon.

2. In a similar vein as The Unreasoner’s comment #23 – since the land is one with The Dragon, would the sky also be one with The Dragon? If Rand were killed by strong balefire, would it cause the sky to go dark? Not just cloudy, but night-like dark. Dark One dark.

What if the attack happened right at sunrise?

If I read the possible theories correctly, Alivia - who is stronger than even Nynaeve – would help Moiraine balefire Rand; Nynaeve, who is one three people who knows it can be done, would then pull him out of TaR and back into the real world.

If the sun/sky mirrors Rand’s existence / non-existence / existence; then the world is not spun backward and Time is not rewound; the sunrise occurs, disappears, and then occurs again. Would this be considered two sunrises?

3. If Moridin and Rand merge, Moiraine would be able to balefire him because the “dark friend” requirement would be met. She knows Moridin would be able to turn Rand, so she would be using the One Power to destroy Moridin and an Evil Rand in the making.

Kamaul: 2011-09-13

#50@Darortega

"1. The prophecy specifically says, 'The Dragon' is one with the land. This does not exclude the possibility of the unstated 'and any other ta'veren', but have we seen any changes in the land around Mat or Perrin? (I don’t count the food spoilage because I feel the food is not part of 'the land'. The grain was harvested, the meat was slaughtered, etc; it was disconnected from its growing process, and so disconnected from the land.) When Perrin had all the refugees to feed, fields full of grain didn't suddenly sprout. He couldn't even get grass to grow to feed the horses. He had to find a town with grain to sell."

Yes, the prophecy does say the Dragon is one with the land. However, it says nothing of the cause of the 'one with the land.' The answer to your question about seeing land changes not counting the spoiling around anyone else would be yes, it has been seen around Aviendha and Elayne. Like I have said earlier, I have not found anything about Mat. The reason to Perrin still being short on food, can also be that grain fields didn't exist. There is also a reference to a spot which plants do grow, though most people contribute that to Blighted lands switching places.

I also would like to thank you for opening your mind somewhat. Most would just state that because it doesn't mention two others, my theory must be wrong.

"In 'Apples First', the apples are all on the ground - they all fell overnight. Then when Rand shows up, the bad apples melt into the ground and new apples grow. (Is it important that the accelerated growth stops when they are ripe, and doesn't continue through to withering and falling?) There is no 'chance' that an entire orchard would re-blossom and produce fruit – all in moments. This is a manipulation of the land. Later, Rand checks the grain on the Sea Folk ship and finds all good grain. This is ta’veren; there is a chance that the good grain could have been missed and only the bags with bad grain had been opened."

Yes, it is important that they don't continue to age, because that obviously means that that is controlled, which leads to my argument stating that we have no idea whether the One Power was used or not. If the One Power was used, then all of those arguments are useless. There is also the fact that every tree grows fruit at a different rate. Because of that, it is possible that trees could grow at such velocities, but EXTREMELY unlikely. Typical ta'veren.

"One last thought on this point - were there any stories of Artur Hawkwing causing trees to produce fruit or grain to grow? He was as strong a ta'veren as Rand. But he was not The Dragon."

What are you talking about? Hawking apparently was nowhere even close to Rand. Rand is the strongest ta'veren since the Breaking. The three ta'veren are the only known ones since Artur Hawking.

"2. In a similar vein as The Unreasoner’s comment #23 – since the land is one with The Dragon, would the sky also be one with The Dragon? If Rand were killed by strong balefire, would it cause the sky to go dark? Not just cloudy, but night-like dark. Dark One dark."

What Terez is saying is because the sun's position is controlled by the Earth's rotation, the sun simply dawns twice. The sky would grow dark because of the lack of the sun.

"If I read the possible theories correctly, Alivia - who is stronger than even Nynaeve – would help Moiraine balefire Rand; Nynaeve, who is one three people who knows it can be done, would then pull him out of TaR and back into the real world."

And how would Nynaeve be able to rip Rand out of Tel'aran'rhiod? She knows that it can be done; however, she has no how-to guide on ripping people out. In clarification, Nynaeve does not know how to do so. Only Moghedien does.

"If the sun/sky mirrors Rand’s existence / non-existence / existence; then the world is not spun backward and Time is not rewound; the sunrise occurs, disappears, and then occurs again. Would this be considered two sunrises?"

Rand always exists, either in Tel'aran'rhiod or the real world. Balefire would not change that. In fact, he would exist in both places at once.

"3. If Moridin and Rand merge, Moiraine would be able to balefire him because the 'dark friend' requirement would be met. She knows Moridin would be able to turn Rand, so she would be using the One Power to destroy Moridin and an Evil Rand in the making."

How would Moiraine know when Rand and Moridin merge? Would she even know that Rand and Moridin are capable of merging? Moiraine is not omniscient, you know.

@Terez
What would you answer with if I asked whether balefiring Rand might be worse than letting the DO have him? The Dragon has turned in the past. But if the main piece that is holding the Pattern together is burned back, the Pattern trying to correct itself might be enough for the Pattern to unravel completely.

Aranvor: 2011-09-14

Could it have something to do with Tel'aran'rhoid/real world? A comment that Perrin made in the towers of midnight has stuck with me. Elyas tells Perrin that he will see him at the last battle or in the dream. Perrin says back to Elyas we are in the dream. Not word for word, but I found the comment interesting. Aiel often mention waking from the dream that is reality as well.

Also the blurring of reality. The dead walking the world, fallen hero's walking Tel'aran'rhoid. It might be a stretch, but the blurring of reality and what is possible seem to be merging together.

Oden: 2011-09-16

Regarding the search for the prophecy of "...one with the land...", have you not read the theory? It is quoted close to the top.

About Moiraine doing something crucial: she will not realize what she has done or die before she knows the result. Her visit through the three rings in Rhuidean would've told her about it and I do think that she would take precautions, should she forget or die before her moment of action. Since we have heard nothing of it, except her letters prior to Lanfear, I think she will never be aware of the results of her actions near TG.

@Kamaul: can you not share your thoughts as if they are facts?

"Rand always exists, either in Tel'aran'rhiod or the real world. Balefire would not change that. In fact, he would exist in both places at once."

He would not exist in both places at the same time. He would be in T'A'R but everyone would remember him being in the real world.

"Hawking apparently was nowhere even close to Rand. Rand is the strongest ta'veren since the Breaking. The three ta'veren are the only known ones since Artur Hawking."

It was said early that Rand is the strongest ta'veren since Artur Hawkwing. We have seen that he is/was stronger still. That they refer to Hawkwing like being the strongest instead of being the first implies that there have been more in between.

"The Dragon has turned in the past."

We do not know that. It was Ba'alzamon (Ishamael) who said that when he tried turning Rand to the shadow. In the repeating lives Rand experienced travelling via portalstones, a life where he turned to the shadow was not mentioned. I see this as a reason to believe that the Dragon does not turn to the shadow. Moiraine's vision of Rand siding with Lanfear is probably not his own choice since we have had hints of Lews Therin Telamon's dislike of Lanfear and her ways.

maelstrom: 2011-09-16

Hmmm . Maybe Rand has to die for his spirit to be free, to battle the dark one properly? The twice dawning day could refer to the dawn of the day and the dawn of a new era? Can't wait for the new book.

Landro: 2011-09-18

Tomp: 2011-08-31 "This is a very simple thought/explanation and probably wrong. It only deals with some of the mentioned prophecies here.

The dragon is the prince of dawn.
Rand arrives at Shayol Ghul at dawn. (The prince of dawn, he who comes with the dawn)
Rand is killed/dies.
Exists in the dream world (can't bother with the spelling of it).
Either he is ripped out by someone (as Birgitte was) or he is spun out immediately and born as an infant by someone present at Shayol Ghul.
When he arrives again then the prince of dawn arrives two times the same day (the day dawns twice)."

I like your theory. I have been thinking along the same lines. If rand were killed he would probably be bound to the Horn of Valere. Mat blowing it would bring back Rand.

Kamaul: 2011-09-18

"Regarding the search for the prophecy of '...one with the land...', have you not read the theory? It is quoted close to the top."

I have read the theory, and the first time I did, it wasn't there. So, either I'm losing my mind or Terez changed it partially. It's probably the former.

"@Kamaul: can you not share your thoughts as if they are facts?"

Even if they are facts?

#53 @Oden
"He would not exist in both places at the same time. He would be in T'A'R but everyone would remember him being in the real world."

Well, technically he would. His actions wouldn't have been done, but the memories of his actions would be the same. So, he would be a mass hallucination I guess. He would be on two planes of reality, the later coming because of balefire.

"It was said early that Rand is the strongest ta'veren since Artur Hawkwing. We have seen that he is/was stronger still. That they refer to Hawkwing like being the strongest instead of being the first implies that there have been more in between."

Simply because I cannot find the quote where Mat states that Artur Hawking was the last known male ta'veren, I will admit that I might have been wrong.

"We do not know that. It was Ba'alzamon (Ishamael) who said that when he tried turning Rand to the shadow. In the repeating lives Rand experienced travelling via portalstones, a life where he turned to the shadow was not mentioned. I see this as a reason to believe that the Dragon does not turn to the shadow."

You do know that Jordan has stated that the Dragon has turned to the Shadow, right? It is right here.

Q. Was Ishamael telling the truth when he said that Rand has turned in the past?

A. Yes, the Champion of Light has turned in the past.

I guess you could claim that the Dragon is not the only Champion of Light. You may be right, but he implies that the Dragon is the only one. The Portal Stones incident is irrelevant. He did not see ALL of his lives. His turning may even require the Dark One's direct participation in it, which would answer why the Portal Stones did not show it in any of his Portal Stone lives.

"Moiraine's vision of Rand siding with Lanfear is probably not his own choice since we have had hints of Lews Therin Telamon's dislike of Lanfear and her ways."

Does it matter whether it was Rand's choice or Moiraine's. Compulsion or the 13x13 Trick or any forced or willing servitude of the Shadow counts as turning.

#54 @Maelstrom
"Hmmm . Maybe Rand has to die for his spirit to be free, to battle the dark one properly? The twice dawning day could refer to the dawn of the day and the dawn of a new era? Can't wait for the new book."

Except that nothing done in Tel'aran'rhiod affects the real world; as well as the Blight, and the Blasted Lands, which includes Shayol Ghul, cannot be reached there.

Dragon Tamer: 2011-09-19

I am just going to state again for the record that balefiring a ta'veren like Rand would destroy the Pattern, it is mentioned in one of the books but I can't remember where. Again, with all of the mentions throughout the series of how evil and wrong using balefire is (so wrong that even the Forsaken won't use it anymore) Rj would never have the main character, the champion of good and light be killed by the evilest thing a channeler can do. Moiraine doesn't even totally approve of balefire on Forsaken for how badly it could warp the pattern, how can anyone think she would but only be fine with but actually use balefire on the one person keeping the entirety of the Pattern together?

Oden: 2011-09-19

@56 Kamaul: I did not know that qoute existed. That gives birth to the question when. In which age has he turned? I did not find an answer to that question in my search in the IDB.

Tha mass hallucination can almost count as there being two of him. the difference is that his ta'veren (and Dragon) influence would not have been in effect. Dragon tamer was nice enough to give us the worst case scenario in post #57, when Balefiring Rand.

@57 Dragon tamer: I disagree with you. I think that Balefire is the key for the same reasons you think it isn't. I say that the bias the book's more educated characters have for Balefire is only to show that it really is very dangerous. Why would a writer include something so bad if not for it to have an important part in the story? So far it is used to kill off Forsaken and the new breed of Darkhounds, only. With so many of the Forsaken still alive and with Perrin set up as the wolf man, Balefire needs to do something huge, like ending all Shadowspawn life in the world or defeating the DO.

Kamaul: 2011-09-19

That is exactly what I'm saying. The most powerful ta'veren we have being balefired is worse than the Dragon turning.

wantfear: 2011-09-20

I'm with the dragon tamer. Balefiring such a powerful taveren would destroy the pattern. Of course, im sure it would be fine if you just killed him off.

Kamaul: 2011-09-21

"I did not know that qoute(sic.) existed. That gives birth to the question when. In which age has he turned? I did not find an answer to that question in my search in the IDB."

I have no idea when the Dragon has turned. Perhaps he turned in the Third Age. Perhaps he turned in an age where the Dark One is bound perfectly. He might have turned when he was standing on Dragonmount. Whenever that was, it obviously did not free the Dark One.

"The mass hallucination can almost count as there being two of him. the difference is that his ta'veren (and Dragon) influence would not have been in effect. Dragon tamer was nice enough to give us the worst case scenario in post #57, when Balefiring Rand."

Yes, while in Tel'aran'rhiod, he is no ta'veren. However, in the other plane of reality, which would exist before the balefire would happen, he is. (I will have to keep disagreeing about the existence of a Dragon influence.)

"I disagree with you. I think that Balefire is the key for the same reasons you think it isn't. I say that the bias the book's more educated characters have for Balefire is only to show that it really is very dangerous. Why would a writer include something so bad if not for it to have an important part in the story? So far it is used to kill off Forsaken and the new breed of Darkhounds, only. With so many of the Forsaken still alive and with Perrin set up as the wolf man, Balefire needs to do something huge, like ending all Shadowspawn life in the world or defeating the DO."

In that, we have another disagreement. There have been plenty of uses for balefire already. It has allowed Mat to come back to life. It has allowed for some of the Forsaken to return to life while leaving a still firm foundation of death. It has given the connection between Rand and Moridin (which will no doubt prove instrumental in the series.) There have been plenty of balefire incidents to name.

lewstherin: 2011-09-23

A well-thought out theory, not that we expect less from Terez, but I'm not convinced that balefiring Rand would turn back the Earth. I have always associated the double-dawn as Rand dying and coming back to life. If Rand did die, and returned to The World of Dreams he could be called by the Horn. Also, since the pattern is deteriorating so badly, Shayol Ghul seems to have it's own distortion, and the Dream World is referred to as outside the pattern, could the blowing of the Horn actually merge the two worlds to an even greater extent than at the original Seanchan landing? After all, in Rand died then the Dark One could "smother the pattern of all things" (ToM Dark Prophecies), the world could be in the DO's hand for a moment. Then when Rand returns the sun returns and the DO is overextended as he "stretch forth His hand to take what is His" and vulnerable for Rand to trap. The problem of Rand's bond with Moridin is severed when he dies and goes to The World of Dreams.

PerrinMcBeardy: 2011-10-04

Not sure how, but it seems like the Dragon's title, "Lord of the Morning," might have some bearing on the twice dawning day.

Also, I doubt that Jordan would have had the earth turn in reverse, because just like in Superman it doesn't make sense that reversing the earth's rotation would reverse time. Jordan was very interested in physics and he would have known that time exists outside of the planet, so spinning the earth in either direction faster or slower would do nothing in terms of time travel. The only effect it would have is that the sudden change in the earth's rotation would cause all people on the planet to be launched into space since they would still be travelling in the original direction of the planet's rotation.

It could be that balefiring Rand could reverse time for the entirety of the patter, but I believe that while that might reverse time, it would not end in Rand being alive again. He would be balefired out of the pattern and the rest of the world would experience a reversal in time as a result.

@Dragon Tamer: I also disagree that balefiring Rand would destroy the pattern, because if that were the case, then I think Moridin would have tried it. His goal is the destruction of the pattern, which he seems to think can only be accomplished by the Dragon. The Dragon is the only person alive that has enough of a tie to both the land and the rest of the pattern for his actions to matter enough to end the pattern.

Oden: 2011-10-04

"..some Forsaken..." That indicates that more than one has seemingly come back to life. I can only think of one, Graendal, unless Bel'al is another. When Mat, Asmodean and Aviendha stopped being dead, Balefire was used to kill one of the Forsaken. The reason Rand used that powerful liquid fire was to bring them back, but that does not change the fact that the target was a Forsaken (or new breed Darkhound).

"Yes, while in Tel'aran'rhiod, he is no ta'veren. However, in the other plane of reality, which would exist before the balefire would happen, he is. (I will have to keep disagreeing about the existence of a Dragon influence.)"

I meant that all changes, all pattern fixing his ta'veren thread did the time the Balefire burned him out would not have happened. If he is the reason a bunch of sneaking dreadlords got their vision obscured by a falling draghkar so that they could not channel an explosion where they had found the commanders of the Light, the sneaking dreadlords would have made that explosion instead of being discovered by Logain's crew - who was making sure that Draghkar was dead.

The point is that a whole lot of Pattern twisting would not have happened. Rand is a really strong ta'veren and I am quite certain that you would see a major difference pre-Balefire and post-Balefire.

(Off topic: I can't log in on the forums and don't know why. I have tried for half an hour, even using the registration link again. I want to post some questions in the ask-anything thread.)

Kamaul: 2011-10-04

"..some Forsaken...' That indicates that more than one has seemingly come back to life. I can only think of one, Graendal, unless Bel'al is another."

Sorry, I should have written it more clearly. What I meant is it allowed Jordan to use the DO to resurrect fallen forsaken like Osan'gar and Aran'gar. With balefire, there is a firm foundation of death.

"The point is that a whole lot of Pattern twisting would not have happened. Rand is a really strong ta'veren and I am quite certain that you would see a major difference pre-Balefire and post-Balefire."

Which is exactly why the Pattern would fall apart. It would have to undo all of that ta'veren twisting.

Waxer: 2011-10-06

The way I read it, Graendal planed to get away if Rand used balefire. Messana was the one that way.

terez: 2011-10-07

@Oden - You do know there are separate registrations for the home page (here) and the forums, right? There's another register link on the forums, on the bar underneath the art. Sorry it's so confusing - lots of people have that problem.

Also, again, the twice-dawning day does NOT imply time travel in any way. It just means the day will dawn twice. Dawn is caused by the earth's rotation; it's a steady MARKER of time because of the regularity of said rotation, but screwing with the rotation does not affect time at all, nor does it NEED to affect time to fulfill the prophecy.

Oden: 2011-10-12

The problem with this is that we do not know which kind of dawn, the rising sun or the beginning of something, the prophecy speaks of. The former seems more likely when reading how the characters are using the word. IIRC, they are not speaking English. English is just the language that RJ used when writing. Dawn might have only one meaning for them.

I know of the separated registrations, they were not the problem. Anyway, it works now.

Du5t1nk: 2011-10-15

The only real problem I have with this theory is if the dawn is so closely related to Rand, then when Rand is balefired, the sun will not have come up and so when dawn does happen it will be the first time. Because even though the dawn I only indirectly related to Rand it is still relative to his existance. For example, if I was standing in front of a fire exit, and blocking the exit, and there was a fire in which people were killed because I was standing there existing in front of the exit. If someone were to come up and balfire me, theoreticaly those people would cease being dead before they died correct? Or am I way off base here?

Oden: 2011-10-17

You're dead on. Their actions (not fleeing from the fire) would not have happened were you to be balefired away from blocking the exit.

terez: 2011-10-22

Du5T1NK - Just like Mat and Aviendha were killed, and after Rahvin was balefired, they just weren't dead any more. And yet, everyone remembered them dying. It's the memories that are the key to this perception of the day dawning twice.

wantfear: 2011-10-22

Although theres no way to tell how far back you were balefired, if someone like rand balefires you then you're screwed but someone like siuan could only burn you out of the pattern but several seconds at most. So the question is who do you think is going to balefire him and at what time of day.

Homeschool: 2011-11-05

I note that nobody has yet mentioned the second line of the prophecy, "Once for mourning, once for birth." If we take that as directly relating to the first line, then we have not only two dawns, but two purposes: One dawn for mourning, one dawn for birth. Consider perhaps, that both dawns may not involve the sun. What might a dawn for mourning be? Or a dawn for birth? Dawn is not literally the sun rising, but the beginning, therefore the day begins for mourning and then begins for birth. The implication would be a rising sun (as that is the most common use), but any significant source of light could create a day-state sufficient to be considered the beginning of the day.

Also consider that mourning is generally for a loss, most commonly a death. The implication is that the day will begin for mourning a death (or deaths), then will begin again for a birth (or births). If this death is Rand's and Rand is one with the land, the implication would be that the land will die and be reborn.

Another point you may wish to consider are statements stretching back to the beginning of the series, where Loial mentions that "the Dark One intended to blind the Eye of the World, and slay the Great Serpent, kill time itself." With their goal being the location called "The Eye of the World", and the events that transpired there, this has been half written off, but I don't actually believe that to be the meaning. Many cultures referred to the sun as the eye of the light, including the ancient Egyptians. Given also that we measure time by the sun, what could be a clearer symbol for the death of time than the loss of the sun?

Both of these may be accurate. The Dark One is driving toward remaking the Pattern, and we've seen significant evidence of the Pattern fraying and unraveling. There've been regular references to events which come close to or hold the potential to unravel the pattern completely, and the general consensus is that this would be a bad thing. Yet, we know that the Pattern has a hole which was covered by a patch, and that the patch is impermanent and only a temporary solution. The Pattern must be whole again before it can cycle to the moment of opening the Bore, but how can a hole be undone? Balefire could possibly turn back time, and I've toyed with the thought that Lanfear (being Mieren) could be a key to such a solution - balefire her to before the moment of the Bore, and it never would be - but this is so risky that it may result in complete destruction. I think rather, that the only way for the Pattern to be made whole, with no weakness or gap, is for it to be unraveled, and reformed.

This then is the great weakness and the cause for mourning - the world is dying, the pattern falling apart, and it seems unstoppable. But consider also that three ta'veren, focal points for the Pattern, exist in this time. Min's visions indicate that all three need to be together at the Last Battle in order for the light to succeed. It's unlikely that this will be a purely physical/metaphysical conflict, but ta'veren weave the Pattern around them. It's entirely possible that Tarmon Gai'don is actually the dissolution of the pattern, and that the real battle is to defend these three as the world dies, until the Pattern is raw threads again and can be re-woven by their combined influence. Perhaps what Harid Fel really discovered when he said that the rubble needed to be cleared away was not merely the remnants of the seal, but all of the inpurities that had crept into the Pattern.

It may, in fact, be that the two dawns are the beginning of the day when this occurs, and then the moment when the Pattern reforms and the world is reborn.

Dagda Morr: 2011-11-25

Would it not be easier for the day to dawn twice by moving? On one point of the globe the sun can rise - if Rand then travels to a spot where it is still night he can see it rise again. The place furthest away that is relevant to the story is Seanchan. If Rand is there bowing to the crystal throne then goes back to Randland then the day would dawn twice (or the other way round).

Kamaul: 2011-11-28

#74@Dagda Morr

Your question has been asked several times, including right here, and the answer always given. The answer is no. The prophecy doesn't say that Rand will see the dawn twice. It says that the dawn will come twice. So, unless the entire world traveled west, the prophecy would remain unfulfilled.

mcatfish11: 2011-12-23

There are only a few minor things i would like to add to the theory. Has anyone considered all the ties of logains fame and glory? if i am not mistaken graendal does tell sammael in tfoh or maybe loc that a circle consisting of 1 or 2 females must be guided by a man. Could it be that from the very start of the last battle moridin plays a key role and eventually rand and moridin travel physically into tar moridin can then take over rands body with a rand no longer existing a circle consisting of alivia, (stronger than nyneave) moraine, (answers and items recieved from aelfinn/elfinn, and logain (wielding callandor, he is one of the leading asamen that supports rand) balefire moridin thus erasing the killing of rand and all the effects of his battle with moridin before it ever happened we then read an altered story line in which moridin is not present at tg thus allowing rand to focus on the do. also this makes an easier explanation for the dawn coming twice when you look at it from this pov you see that the dawn coming twice is just the two plot lines read twice in the last book. there are no prophecies that would debunk this theory. like i said this is coinciding with terez original comment and with comment#50. it even accounts for alivia helping to kill him.

mcatfish11: 2011-12-23

ashamen*

Oden: 2012-01-01

#76 @Mcatfish
Your scenario only gives us, the readers, 2 dawns. All the characters in the series still have only 1 dawn in their memory, the one that did not occur (if I have the idea of memories remaining after balefire right).

Ps. It's Asha'man, it does not refer to the word man but to the word guardian in the Old tongue. Hence, it does not matter if there are many ore only one. You say Asha'man either way, not Asha'men in plural.

Wheel Philosoph: 2012-01-01

It's been stated numerous times that Balefiring a Ta'veren would result in the destruction of the pattern, but look at the wording in the Prologue of TEoTW. Page XIII "The air turned to fire, the fire to LIGHT LIQUIFIED. The bolt that struck from the heavens would have seared and blinded any eye that glimpsed it, even for an instant. . . Only a heartbeat did that SHINING BAR exist. . ."

It seems to me that LTT destroyed himself with Balefire in the second age when he wrought Dragonmount into being.

The two capitalized phrases seem to match the description of Balefire throughout the series. Although on a smaller scale it wouldn't sear and blind anyone who looked, but using all of LTT's strength would take the normal afterimage that is so often mentioned to such a scale.

Just a silly little thought. Perhaps (even if it has nothing to do with The Last Battle) we shouldn't rule out someone, somehow, Balefiring Rand.

SolomonG: 2012-01-02

The "his" in the first line is clearly referring to the Dragon, and because it doesn't add "Reborn" to the title, I always assumed it could be referring to both Rand and LT. If "The Day when his blood is shed," is the day he (The Dragon) dies, then "Once for mourning," would be LT drawing too much of the power and killing himself after Ishamael gave him sanity to show him what he had done.

"Once for birth," would then indicate that Rand will perish so that something else could be born; a new world, age or something else entirely.

If someone else already expressed a similar thought I apologize; I read the article, but not all the comments.

Loial: 2012-01-05

I have to agree with those who say balefire would be disastrous. And assuming the earth's rotation would be reversed is taking the "one with the land" thing a bit far. There is also the issue that Rand's blood on the rocks is explicitly mentioned in the prophecies. Rand's body is mentioned more than once, too. Whatever kills Rand has to leave a body behind.

The whole concept of Rand being one with the land explains why the Dark One needed him alive, though. He could corrupt the world by turning Rand to the dark side. It isn't just "the Dark One's touch."

As for how it could dawn twice, somebody already mentioned that dawn is the twilight before sunrise, not sunrise itself. There could be a false dawn (caused by a light source other than the Sun), then the real one later.

supernoddypo2k7: 2012-01-09

@SOLOMONG I agree with your assessment.

Oden: 2012-01-09

@WHEEL PHILOSOPH #79
LTT didn't need to be ta'veren. Either he never was (upper quote) or he had stopped being (lower qoute).

"Mato: OK, just a heads up, I'm from Theoryland so you know I've got a few questions I'm going to have to ask you...

Sanderson: Oh boy . . . I'm going to have to think about these, aren't I?

Mato: ~laughs~ OK . . . Heroes of the Horn, are they corrective mechanisms by themselves, or are they corrective mechanisms by virtue of being ta'veren?

Sanderson: Heroes are not always ta'veren. So, yes, they are corrective mechanisms by themselves."

RJ:"The Wheel creates ta’veren at need, making someone who is already alive one. You aren’t born ta’veren. Can you imagine being around a ta’veren who is teething?"

maleshub: 2012-01-11

If a circle of 13 Myrrdraal and 13 Aes Sedai can turn a person to the Dark, would a circle of 13 Ashaman and 13 Aes Sedai turn one to the light?

The Greenman: 2012-01-17

@MALESHUB - I don't think that is possible. The way I see the turning to the dark one working is because of the Myrrdraals link to the dark one, which is the mechanism by which the weaves are 'twisted/changed' into those that can turn another channeler to the shadow. The problem with your suggestion is that neither Ashaman nor Aes Sedai have that sort of link to the light or creator, which according to my way of seeing it would be required to turn to the light. I suppose channeling through a Ta'veren possibly has the required connection though.

Just on a side note i think Taim is making people turn to the shadow in the black tower and thats why the Aes Sedai and Taim's lackeys are so weird...

Kamaul: 2012-01-18

#83@Oden
Just so you know, LTT was indeed, and indisputably, ta'veren; at least, according to Loial, who probably knows best.

The Eye of the World: Web of the Pattern

"Artur Hawking was ta'veren. So was Lews Therin Kinslayer, for that matter, I suppose."

However, I do agree that he would have stopped being ta'veren sometime after the Dark One's Prison was shut, since he wasn't needed anymore.

Also, on that note, Lews Therin did NOT balefire himself.

Letter to Tom McCormick from RJ - November/December 1993

Tom McCormick: Please find out if Lews Therin balefired himself in the prologue in The Eye of the World, or if he just drew too much of the One Power. If it isn't critical to the continuing plot, I'm sure he'll say.

RJ: Lews Therin did not use balefire on himself; he simply drew as much of the One Power as he could, then kept on pulling it in.

JustMo: 2012-01-26

I still have a sneaking suspision that Fain HAS to come into play in T'G. My thinking is that Rand breaks the seals simultaneously releasing AND killing the DO in the process. At that point, there is no longer a balance between the Light and Dark Side, which would cause the Wheel to stop turning and begins to cause an end to everything. But Fain (due to his double darkness)becomes the new DO (NDO) and is trapped in the prison, creating a new balance of Light and Dark. Balance restored, the day "dawns" anew, with everyone seeing the DO is dead by Rands hand. nobody knows Fain is the NDO and trapped, so everyone assumes that there is no longer a DO....until the Wheel brings about the AoL again and the "new power is discovered".

WOTlover: 2012-01-29

The only problem I see with Rand being balefired is the danger of undoing his victory over the dark one.

WOTlover: 2012-01-29

Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed. Once for mourning, once for birth.
Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.
In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.

I'm going to restructure the wording to make more sense to me.

I think the simplest answer is best. Its just a fancy way to say the Dragon bleeds on two separate days. A battle at Shayol Ghul the night before, then a battle with the Dark One in the Pit of Doom the next morning.

Yerffejy: 2012-02-11

In regards to the twice dawn:

I think some may have over thought this phrase.

When the DO is freed, the land will be covered in Shadow. When Rand wins the battle, the Shadow will recede and the Light will return.

A dawn is the first rays of sunlight after dark. So the morning of the battle is the first dawn that day. Then when the Shadow is free, Darkness falls over everything. When the Shadow is defeated, light returns, in effect creating a second dawn in the same day. The passage does not say that the dawn will repeat, but that "twice dawns the day" or the day has a dawn twice. If balefire were used and the earth changed its rotation, that would also mean that time reversed, which is what balefire does.

So in essence, the day would only dawn once with your theory, because the previous dawn never happened. I think the second dawn is a literal and figurative second coming of the light in darkness.

edubz1987: 2012-04-19

I believe Rand doesn't get removed from the last battle completely because of a foretelling done by Nicola in the LOC

Suddenly Nicola spoke, sounding half-asleep. "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on a boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade.

He could possibly be turned to evil and with it the land turns dark after the first sunset, then with the killing/spilling of his blood by a friendly hand the darkness is washed from the earth and the light dawns from the darkness. With the quote stated above I believe he is somehow resurrected. It makes some sense since the dark prophecies need to be fulfilled as well.

Danp0909: 2012-04-20

This all seems based on the idea that the prophecies must be interpreted literally but that is a very dangerous assumption. Certainly many of the fulfilled prophecies have not been literal. When it is said that Rand shall "Slay his people with the sword of peace and break them with the leaf" Rand has not named his sword peace and he has not slain an excessive number of Aiel with it, nor has he adopted an inordinately large leaf as a club with which to bash the Aiel around. While this theory is well thought out, it seems to be needlessly complex. Personally I just think that when the Dark One is freed by the breaking of the seals his first act will be to bring about a general darkness, I mean with a name like "the Dark One" he's not likely to be a sun worshipper... Besides, it would make a certain strategic sense as Trollocs and Mydraal (and presumably other creatures of the Shadow) can see as well in night as in day. The only light forces who wouldn't be hampered would be Perrin, Elyas and the wolves. Assuming that Mat doesn't invent night vision goggles that is. Or perhaps the sun literally will rise again, the Dark One seems to enjoy messing around with time (walking dead and villages and such), mayhap he'll force the sun back down and it could rise again after his defeat? I've gone off on a bit of a tangent, the point is (a small essay later), we can't assume that prophecy must be literal...

keelan86: 2012-04-23

Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed. Once for mourning, once for birth.

could this mean he will "die" on the same day he was born. the "once for mourning" could be the death of his birth mother Tigraine, her blood is his blood. the birth/reincarnation/balefire theory is explained to a great degree in comments above

keelan86: 2012-04-23

also this thing with Rand & Moridin looking alike & merging, being 2 sides of the same coin. In Native American mythology there is a godlike entity known as Anpao it two faces that represents the spirit of the dawn. thats all i have on that

FarDareisMaiGrandma: 2012-04-27

@DANP090 when the prophecies said that Rand would "break them with the leaf" it was obviously a reference to the fact that many aiel would not be able to handle the revelation that they had once followed the Way of the Leaf. Many of the aiel were either taken by the bleakness or ran from their clans when this revelation was made. It completely changed them as a people causing some aiel to splinter away from the group, an unheard fo occurance among them. This, combined with the change in the others who bonded together as one inder Rand, ending many blood fueds of long standing, "broke" the aiel, beginning the process of forging them into a new people. What that new people will be is yet to be seen. Judging by the aiel prophecy that says that "a remnant of a remnant shall be saved" it seems inevitable that most of them will die in The Last Battle. Unless that prophecy means that the aiel will become a new people and the only "true" aiel left are the few Shaido that managed to make their way back to the waste. Aviendah's visions at the glass columns seem to indicate that the aiel who try to continue as traditional aiel will be hunted down and exterminated like vermin. But then her vision also seem to indicate that the Seanchan will conquer the world after Tarmon Gai'don. All of her visions there seem to indicate that the coalition that appears to be forming to fight in the Last Battle, will collapse within a few decades of the end of the battle, probably due to Rand's death at the battle, leaving the field free for a takeover by the Seanchan.

wotfreak222: 2012-04-29

@FarDareisMaiGrandma:
Aviendha's visions do not say Rand died at the Last Battle. They say he left. True, you could infer from that that he died, but I believe that Rand came to an agreement with the Seanchan that they could keep what territory they had already seized, in return they would fight at the last battle. The Seanchan then would have one further demand - that should Rand survive the Last Battle, he would go into exile. Thinking that there's no chance he survives, Rand agrees but survives - and thus goes into exile with Elayne, Aviendha, and Min. Note that Elayne and Aviendha should both still be alive in the last vision she has. Women who channel can live centuries, and yet mere decades later Elayne's daughter is ruling Andor and Aviendha is a memory to her children/grandchildren. You know for a fact that both Elayne and Aviendha survive the last battle - their children and grandchildren are major figures in the world.

Rand lives, and takes his harem in to exile with him.

keelan86: 2012-04-30

@WOTFREAK22:
Presumably Narishma will then takeover as head of Black Tower. " Who draws it out shall follow after"

Waxer: 2012-04-30

Logain might be the one instead.

Diesel: 2012-05-07

Could it be that there will be a total solar eclipse? It gets pretty dark during one of those and could be why it seems like the day dawned twice. Probably too simple for Mr. Jordan however.

FarDareisMaiGrandma: 2012-05-08

@wotfreak222 Good points! Perhaps Rand and his ladies journey with Mat to Seanchan to deal with the mess there.

On another note....Has anyone else come up with the theory that Demandred is in Seanchan stirring up that beehive? We know that the Imperial family has been wiped out and chaos reigns there. Just as the DO ordered! "Let the Lord of Chaos rule"! And if Demandred were there to organize the Seanchan rebels this would account for his statement that he is gathering his forces. He could have many DF sul'dam ready and waiting. Or sul'dam who believe that he is legitimatly in charge of things. They wouldn't necessarily have to be DFs althought that would be easier and more reliable. He could also be training male channelers in secret. We are told that all men in Seanchan who begin to channel are killed, but we are never shown this. In a society that is as regimented as this one is, a person who is influential can hide many things. Spiriting away men who can channel would be possible. Who would question a high ranking official if he says that the men have been killed. Given the choice of being killed or swearing to the DO many might make the choice to swear. Or they could be forceably turned. There is evidence of new dreadlords in Lord Ituraldes battle at Maradon, we are not told whether they are male or female, but they could be evidence of some of Demandreds forces.

Waxer: 2012-05-08

Samy. did in the Seanchan high leaders.

FarDareisMaiGrandma: 2012-05-10

@WAXER Elucidate Please.

Waxer: 2012-05-10

Semirhage killed the Seanchan high lords and all leaders.

edubz1987: 2012-05-19

I've been thinking about what Lord Luc/Isam is, and I think I found a hint in COT. Perrin asks himself if a human soul could be devoured by a darkhound... so I believe that Lord Luc and Isam were both mortally injured and their souls were devoured by darkhounds. Pertaining to his ridiculous powers I don't know at all, if the DO could just hand out the ability to travel back and forth from Tel' at will the light wouldn't stand a chance (at least I wouldn't think so).

piknt: 2012-05-24

"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed. Once for mourning, once for birth."

I've been thinking about this sentence for some time and, in my opinion, there are two possible meanings:

- "his blood is shed" implies not Rand's blood, but Aiel blood: there is a large battle for two days in Shayol Ghoul between Aiel and Shadow army and in the second dawn, shall this battle end whith victory and the bore closed for ever, so that, DO can't have no influence in the world and for the first time since bore was opened, the sun dawns in Shayol Ghoul.

- Rand feels shadow grow inside of him and he knows that he can't go fighting DO in these circumstances, because he could betray Light (perhaps Callandor could be the a way to open a gate to darkness in his soul), so, he asks Alivia if she could balefire him and, after some time (perhaps, three days, as posted in some other posts) tell Logain or Cadsuane what she had done and let them balefire her while in a circle whith Aes Sedai, Ashaman and Callandor, so that what she has done, would be undone and Rand would come back to life free of DO's influence.

Well, those are basically my theories regarding the two dawn's day. Sorry for my bad English, and I hope you find them interesting.

Thank you for this excellent page and for your posts. They are very interesting.

Kamaul: 2012-05-26

Piknt, your second theory is flawed by the fact that balefire does not undo other balefire. That has been clearly placed out.

Sarkimo: 2012-05-27

My theory is that, between the Seals being broken and the DO being resealed, the DO will begin to unravel the pattern, effectively rewinding time. Because SG is at the center of the unraveling, or perhaps because of the concentration of ta'veren present, those at SG will not be effected, but they will see the Sun go backwards across the sky. When the DO is resealed, time resumes its normal course and the day dawns again.

wantfear: 2012-05-27

@ #100 the dreadlords channeling at Maradon were undoubtedly male, the Ashaman commander Deepe Bhadar said that Saidin was being woven. He didnt say anything about feeling goosebumps, indicating the presence of saidar, or missing gaps in the weaves that he couldn't see(another indicator). So its safe to assume any dreadlords there were male, which could reinforce your theory except it is more logical to assume a black tower connection. Given taim's alledged association with the dark one and the descriptions of him being eriely similar to when moridin is holding the TP. And we know they are having shady shit at the black tower, presumeably 13x13 turnings. I think Seanchan is a little too far out for Demandred to be hiding when there is something weird happening so close to "home" and we don't know definitively who is at the top. Taim is just a figure head in my opinion. Although i've heard it mentioned that he is one of a new generation forsaken. I think that is the most likely.

Truthless: 2012-09-11

Just looking at the artwork for A Memory of Light... It looks like there will be a total solar eclipse

A Memory of Light Cover

I hope that this is just a red herring, and there is another reason the day dawns twice. I don't hold much faith in that theory though.

Cheers.

TheWheelWeaves: 2012-10-15

@Truthless #109
@Terez

So actually if you read about the cover art for AMOL in that link you posted, Truthless, it says this:

"In keeping with the series’ covers, the scene gathers elements from a key scene in the book. Here, Rand stands with Callandor on the rocks of Shayol Ghul, heading down into its depths to confront the Dark One even as the sun itself vanishes from the world. "

So the sun "vanishes", and it is looks quite clear in the artwork that there is a sphere-like object eclipsing it, assumably the moon. Voila, it's an eclipse. I think the idea of the twice-dawning day was written down in the prophecies as a marker for WHEN it will happen, and not as a particular description of WHAT will happen. As in, the eclipse is not necessarily pertinent to that passage of the prophecies except as an indicator of when Rand's blood will be shed.

Now obviously the artwork cannot be 100% relied upon, but the passage I quoted above does state that the artwork depicts a scene directly from the book.