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ain, Sammael and the Trollocks

by Tristin: 2005-10-21 | 4.53 out of 10 (17 votes)

Recent Categories: The Trolloc Attack

In Jordan's blog he has recently reiterated the connection between Fain and Mordeth. The particulars of the Fain-Mordeth connection has been apparent to us since the Great Hunt. The details are given most clearly in the following quote:

"He's a Darkfriend." "More than that. Worse than that. Padan Fain was the Dark One's creature to the depths of his soul, but I believe that in Shadar Logoth he fell afoul of Mordeth, who was as vile in fighting the Shadow as ever the Shadow itself was. Mordeth tried to consume Fain's soul, to have a human body again, but found a soul that had been touched directly by the Dark One, and what resulted . . . . What resulted was neither Padan Fain nor Mordeth, but something far more evil, a blend of the two. Fain - let us call him that - is more dangerous than you can believe. You might not have survived such a meeting, and if you had, you might have been worse than turned to the Shadow."

We get the same in one of Fain's POV's from Fires of Heaven:

"So much had changed. Even himself. Padan Fain. Mordeth. Ordeith. Sometimes he was uncertain which name was really his, who he really was. One thing was sure. He was not what anyone thought. Those who believed they knew him were badly mistaken. He was transfigured, now. A force unto himself, and beyond any other power."

Now I know there have been a ton of theories about Fain's role in the Last Battle...that he is going to become the new Dark One or some such...well this is not that kind of theory.

Theory

This theory is looking to provide at least a little evidence to the fact that Fain (appearing as Sammael) convinced Myrddraal to attack Rand.

Development

In KOD, on 146-47 there is a discussion among the chosen as to whether Sammael is dead or alive, and how he could have stayed hidden for all this time.

Moridin argues, "Nevertheless, Sammael, or someone disguised as him, gave orders to Myrddraal, and they obeyed, so it was one of the Chosen." He then admits to not knowing the exact orders but concedes that whoever it was "sent a hundred Myddraal and thousands of Trollocks into the Ways."

My argument is as follows:

1. When Fain and Mordeth fused something more than split personality happened.

2. This is evidenced by Fain's powers (staking a Myrddraal to the side of a barn, keeping them chained when others could never do that, etc.)

3. One of Fain's powers is apparently a strange connection with Machin Shin that not only allows him to pass through it unharmed, but due to a kind of kinship with it in some way it stands guard for him. Ingtar notes in the Great Hunt:

"I'd never have thought Fain had the courage for the Ways." Ingtar sounded almost mild, but suddenly he banged his fist against the wall. "I do not care how, or even if, Machin Shin works on Fain's behalf."

4. If Fain did manage to send trollocks and Myrddraal somewhere, he could safely do it through the Ways without worrying that the Ways and Black Wind would eat up his mini-army

5. Sammael was killed by Mashadar. Floating around somewhere is a quote by RJ, I think on the TOR website that says that "Sammael is toast." Or something like that.

6. Since Fain has a connection to Shadar Logoth in the form of Mordeth...and since Mordeth was a part of Mashadar...if you remember in the first book Mordeth actually turns into a wisp of Mashadar when Rand points out that he doesn't have a shadow. Note:

"Rand's jaw dropped, and he almost dropped the sword as well. As Mordeth dove through the air, he stretched out and thinned, like a tendril of smoke. As thin as a finger he struck a crack in the wall tiles and vanished into it. A last cry hung in the room as he vanished, fading slowly away after he was gone."

...it seems reasonable to say that Fain-Mordeth has a connection to Mashadar.

7. I argue that this connection allows Fain in someway to present himself as Sammael...precisely because Sammael died at the hands of Mashadar and because Fain must be at least partially Mashadar incarnate (it could be argued that this also explains the weird connection with Machin Shin

Counter Arguments

Against this theory one could ask: why would Fain send a bunch of Trollocs after Rand? Well to kill him. Rand is the bane of Fain's existence.

Someone could also argue that Fain does not have the ability to create illusions...and I would argue that we don't really know very much about Fain's abilities at all. At the very least my theory is possible.

In Conclusion

I would also ask what other options are there for who sent the Trollocs...possibly one of the Forsaken...possibly Taim using Illusion...but then again a Forsaken would not need to pretend to be another Forsaken to get that done unless they were afraid that Moridin would find out...this means that Cyndane and Moghedien and Taim would be the likely culprits as the rest aren't particularly afraid of him as of yet. A last option would be that it is the "ghost" of Sammael that appeared or some such nonsense...I'm sticking with Fain. Enjoy.

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Comments

Tamyrlin: 2005-10-21

Well, we have seen Fain create an illusion of "dead men coming back to life", which does suggest some plausibility to your idea. Your strongest points come in the form of the use of the Ways. To move such a large number of Trolloc, as we see attack Rand, and for someone to know exactly where Rand was (if the Forsaken knew, why wouldn't they all attack with a million Trolloc?), and to create an illusion of a dead man such as Sammael to manipulate the Myrrdraal, you could have nailed it on the head. Fain couldn't kill him in Far Madding, so he attempts to kill him by using thousands of Trolloc. He would know exactly where to point them too. A compelling idea Tristin.

lazy sedai: 2005-10-21

One problem with this is that I doubt Fain, after hunting Rand for years, would ever let a simple Trolloc, or even Fade, be the one to kill his prey. He'd want that pleasure all for himself.

Madoc Comadrin: 2005-10-21

I posted a little on this in the message board, but I had not considered Fain. I think that the 3 possible candidates are Fain, Taim, and Graendal.

I'm not sure that we have enough info to narrow it down further, but I like your take on Fain.

Taim may have an incentive to mask himself while sending the trollocs if either 1) he does not want to reveal himself as a "Forsaken" to the others or 2) if he wanted to hide his actions from Moridin. 2) seems possible given the strong Moridin/Taim links in the epilogue of KOD.

Graendal (this gets speculative) is the other possible culprit. Her motive is that Rand destroyed her schemes with Sammael in COS, so this is her way of striking back. This seems weak at first, but I would argue that she feels her position is threatened now that Sammael is gone. Threatened by the other Forsaken, since she is no longer teamed up with anyone. By pretending to be Sammael, she sows some doubt about his death among the forsaken, maybe stopping any designs they had about taking out Graendal.

The only real evidence (and its weak) is that:

1) In the third chapter of KOD, Graendal seems open to a partnership with Aran'gar, indicating maybe that she does feel threatened without a partner.

2) When Moridin spills the news about Graendal. Her response "Tht hardly seems possible," Graendal said as hey all moved to take chairs. Her gown was dark gray now, concealing everything.

While possibly meaning nothing, her gown suddenly going dark may be RJ subtly telling the reader that she does have something to conceal.

Of course, in the same chapter there are hints that maybe Demandred acted as Sammael, but I think that's classic RJ red herring.

Anubis: 2005-10-22

i subitted this on the message boards... so uh... yeah i agree..

CyberFade: 2005-10-22

I like the call on Graendal, Madoc Comadrin, that's a good find. I suppose the question remains how does Graendal know where to send the shadowspawn (there's darkfriends with Rand, so not that big of a deal), and how to get them through the ways (well Isam did that)?

Besides the problem of Fain wanting to kill Rand personally (and killing Rand's enemies in case they should get to Rand first), there's a passage somewhere from Fain about his connection to Shadar Logoth and how it's dangerous for him to return there (I think it's when he gets the ruby-capped dagger from Tar Valon). It hasn't been taken into account yet for mashadar ate Sammael therefor Fain can impersonate him, etc... hypothesizers.

mako0424: 2005-10-23

I think Graendal thought it impossible for Sammael to have given orders for the Trolloc army, not because she believes him to be dead, but that he is posing as someone else and wouldn't have reveal;ed himself yet, i think this could be indusive from her dress turning grey, and why she reluctantly accepts Aran'gar's suggestion for a truce. She doesn't feel threatened, even if by herself, but she can trap Sammael and Aran'gar now.

I'm rambling a bit, but i dont think Fain can pose as someone else, especially something as non-factual as his soul being taken by Mashadar, for several reasons, because Fain could always look like hundreds, and thousands of people, but never has or does, as well as the fact that i agree with Lazy Sedai, in that he has gotten to the point of obsession that he must do it himself, ie. killing Asha'amn in Far Madding "He's mine!!!"

Callandor: 2005-10-23

**3. One of Fain's powers is apparently a strange connection with Machin Shin that not only allows him to pass through it unharmed, but due to a kind of kinship with it in some way it stands guard for him.**

It doesn't really. More similar to Machin Shin having part of Fain's hatred for Rand, and his ability to know where Rand is.

**6. Since Fain has a connection to Shadar Logoth in the form of Mordeth...and since Mordeth was a part of Mashadar...if you remember in the first book Mordeth actually turns into a wisp of Mashadar when Rand points out that he doesn't have a shadow. ...it seems reasonable to say that Fain-Mordeth has a connection to Mashadar.**

The only connection is that Mordeth somehow survived. Mashadar is unrelated to him due to it being a mindless, slightly glowing fog -- roughly equivalent of the manifestation of the hate/evil that is the city.

**7. I argue that this connection allows Fain in someway to present himself as Sammael...precisely because Sammael died at the hands of Mashadar and because Fain must be at least partially Mashadar incarnate**

I would disagree completely. There isn't a link beyond what I stated above, and that Mordeth was the source of the city being corrupted in the first place.

**Against this theory one could ask: why would Fain send a bunch of Trollocs after Rand? Well to kill him. Rand is the bane of Fain's existence.**

But Fain wants to do it -- not someone else or something else. Fain does.

Plus, he more or less doesn't want to kill him per se. Just hurt him in his life as much as he sees Rand as hurting his. Then kill him ;)

**Someone could also argue that Fain does not have the ability to create illusions...and I would argue that we don't really know very much about Fain's abilities at all. At the very least my theory is possible.**

He does -- just unknown if they would be around himself, or that an illusion could control Shadowspawn since it is an illusion.

Furthermore, while Fain has power over Myrddraal -- this is hundreds of Myrddraal at a time, not just one.

**Taim may have an incentive to mask himself while sending the trollocs if either 1) he does not want to reveal himself as a "Forsaken" to the others or 2) if he wanted to hide his actions from Moridin. 2) seems possible given the strong Moridin/Taim links in the epilogue of KOD.**

But it would mean that Taim would have to be a Forsaken in essence, since only the Forsaken can order the Shadowspawn in a commanding way.

I believe Taim to be a high up Darkfriend -- but not Forsaken high.

**Of course, in the same chapter there are hints that maybe Demandred acted as Sammael, but I think that's classic RJ red herring.**

Demandred is really the only clear obvious I feel. He wants Rand killed with a passion regardless of what Moridin wants. But, he doesn't want to get into trouble about it. He makes the conceding remark that he was mistaken, and it's noted that it was very rare to get that (Moridin does the same, but with obvious dislike). And, he even makes comments that he knows how Sammael opperates.

A good indicator for Graendal could be that because she knows that Sammael is dead, that she is really the only one that can safely pose as him -- the others can guess that he's dead, but she knows (well, she has incredibly good reason to believe so much better than any other Forsaken at least). Even Moridin is unsure of Sammael's death.

But her motive I feel is incredibly weak. She doesn't want to mess with Rand anymore than she has to -- why provoke him even if there's an off chance of him coming to her?

Tamyrlin: 2005-10-23

So, what is the plausible explanation regarding how other Forsaken would have known where to find Rand? Fain knows, how exactly does everyone believe other Forsaken would have known?

Callandor: 2005-10-23

**So, what is the plausible explanation regarding how other Forsaken would have known where to find Rand? Fain knows, how exactly does everyone believe other Forsaken would have known?**

There is a Black Ajah amongst Rand's group. Even if she herself doesn't want Rand to die, the Shadow can still learn the location of Rand pretty easily.

Mort: 2005-10-24

It has been stated that forsaken can find Rand by reading the Pattern, so they have that and darkfriends telling them.

My bets are on Fain or Demandred at this point, Taim I dont believe is Chosen status... yet anyway. And Graendal we havnt seen much evidence for or against. Only one of those 4 should be possible candidates.

And Demandred fits being the one who orders Slayer to kill Rand too.

Callandor: 2005-10-24

**And Demandred fits being the one who orders Slayer to kill Rand too.**

He can fit it -- but it's not known if he did.

jibbin: 2005-10-24

Fain killed the darkfriend asha'man's (is that the plural of asha'man?? or is it asha'men) saying to the one in which you have the POV of, "Al'Thor is mine" or similar (cant be bothered looking for an exact quote, sry).

But i still havent seen any reason to believe Sammael is really dead. I think Sammael faked his own death, why else chose Shadar Logoth to run too? That's my oppinion, you guy can rip it to pieces now :P

Tristin: 2005-10-25

That BA chick who is with Rand, I forget her name off the top of my head but she seems fanatically all about Rand getting to the last battle so he can loose there. I'm not sure she would be particularly supportive of Graendal dropping thousands of trollocks on him before then. Also I'm not sure why a dark sister would be reporting to Graendal...we haven't been given anything in their POV's that would establish a Graendal connection with the Aes Sedai...she seems to despise them for even calling themselves that.

Maybe I'm forgetting some of the known darkfriends with Rand besides her...who am I missing?

mako0424: 2005-10-25

It was actually Sammael, thats the beauty everyone. It wasn't any of those four candidates.

Lauric: 2005-10-25

"Taim I dont believe is Chosen status..."

Taim is as good of a choice as any. I mean honestly, someone give me an ounce of proof contrary to him being of Chosen status! Lets see... He's near as strong as Rand (LTT) in the power, definately a plus for any chosen. He's in a position to be a HEAVY asset in Tarmon Gaidon (100+ Asha'man darkfriends?) another plus. He's obviously a darkfriend, necessary, but he's so much more than any Darkfriend. Theres been mentioned the fact that there "isn't much to choose from" when it comes to new Chosen, but there have been permanent losses that mr. DO would want to replace.

Ergo, I say Mazrim Taim is a Chosen. And possibly, but much less likely, Alviarin... (second extra chair at the gathering)

Taim could have sent the Trollocs just as easily as Demandred, but I still lean towards Fain.

Callandor: 2005-10-25

**But i still havent seen any reason to believe Sammael is really dead. I think Sammael faked his own death, why else chose Shadar Logoth to run too? That's my oppinion, you guy can rip it to pieces now :P**

Jordan has said Sammael will not be returning.

**Q: It has been reported that you have confirmed that Sammael died at the end of Crown of Swords. Could you confirm that you have said this and elaborate on whether Rand was correct?

A: Mashadar killed Sammael. Sammael is toast!**

**Q: Is Sammael dead dead, or 'he will never return dead'?

A: Sammael? Sammael is dead. He's dead. He could be reborn. In another life. Eithout knowing anything of Sammael. He's not going to be reincarnated; he's not going to show up again.**

** I'm not sure she would be particularly supportive of Graendal dropping thousands of trollocks on him before then.**

She wouldn't want Rand to die, no, but that doesn't happen automatically if the Shadow knows where she is or Rand is. It's trying to keep two conflicting orders:

1. A Forsaken saying "Tell me where Rand al'Thor is." And if you disobey you'll probably be killed if not tortured until they do know.

2. Keeping Rand alive until the Last Battle.

**Also I'm not sure why a dark sister would be reporting to Graendal...we haven't been given anything in their POV's that would establish a Graendal connection with the Aes Sedai...she seems to despise them for even calling themselves that.**

Well, it doesn't have to be Graendal is the point. We simply know there is a Black Ajah sister among Rand's group and that the Shadow knew where Rand was. Isn't hard to see the path of the most likely here.

**Taim is as good of a choice as any. I mean honestly, someone give me an ounce of proof contrary to him being of Chosen status!**

Because the Dark One uses Age of Legends channelers as his strongest and most important. That's why they've been brought back when they died. That's why Aran'gar says that there were so few of them.

**He's obviously a darkfriend, necessary, but he's so much more than any Darkfriend.**

That is unknown how much of a Darkfriend he is. He can be a Dreadlord and still be a Darkfriend and quite high up -- but not a Forsaken.

**Taim could have sent the Trollocs just as easily as Demandred, but I still lean towards Fain.**

Unlikely. Demandred we know is a Forsaken, and can order Trollocs and Myrddraal. Taim -- it's unlikely he is quite that high. Fain is only really thrown in because he can find Rand and people are expanding a great deal that he can control hundreds of Myrddraal (again, he can put fear into them, but hundreds is probably a big stretch). Further, we've never seen Fain put an illusion around himself and it's completely debatable whether an illusion would work anyway since we know it has to do with being marked as a Forsaken by the Dark One to control Shadowspawn.

Lauric: 2005-10-26

"Because the Dark One uses Age of Legends channelers as his strongest and most important. That's why they've been brought back when they died. That's why Aran'gar says that there were so few of them."

As for using them as his strongest, obviously. They are his strongest. But if Taim can hold near as much as Rand, that puts him either on par or close to the others, so strength cannot play part in him not being Chosen.

Most important? Of course, when the bore first started opening, they're what he has to work with (that he knows about, Taim probably wasn't brought to him until later, if indeed he was brought to him).

They've been brought back when they died because the DO has very little stock in 3rd age channelers that can match the Forsaken in strength/skill. Taim can strength-wise, if he's near Rand in power, and we're led to believe he was Forsaken trained, so can probably get up there in skill.

If he IS a chosen, Aran'gar doesn't know about it, so she is only counting the Forsaken.

"That is unknown how much of a Darkfriend he is. He can be a Dreadlord and still be a Darkfriend and quite high up -- but not a Forsaken."

I'll restate again just for effect. That is unknown how much of a Darkfriend he is. Thats exactly what i'm saying, we DON'T know, but it's POSSIBLE that he's been Chosen by the DO.

"Unlikely. Demandred we know is a Forsaken,"

It's only unlikely if you don't believe Taim has been Chosen, which obviously you don't, so it's just repetition (like my repeating your quote above), and is thus really not an argument... just a statement of 'fact' as you see it. Fact requires proof.

"Fain is only really thrown in because he can find Rand and people are expanding a great deal that he can control hundreds of Myrddraal (again, he can put fear into them, but hundreds is probably a big stretch). Further, we've never seen Fain put an illusion around himself and it's completely debatable whether an illusion would work anyway since we know it has to do with being marked as a Forsaken by the Dark One to control Shadowspawn."

With the Chosen being 'put in their place' as has been happening, I think it unlikely this happened without orders if done by one of the Chosen. Fain, on the other hand, doesn't take orders from anyone. Doesn't care to take orders from anyone. Plus we've been shown he can control shadowspawn, but we havn't been shown much of his abilities. He's been absent for a while and last we really saw him a lot, it seemed his power was ever increasing, so we really don't know what to expect. Ergo, he is not just 'thrown in', but is a valid candidate for the identity.

a dragonburned fool: 2005-10-26

How do we know that the Myrddraals are ordered by someone with Sammael's appearance or identification? We know only that somebody ordered these Myrddraals into the Ways and they went there. And that there is something in style that could point to Sammael.

I like the idea that it's Sammael who is responsible for sending the Myrddraal, but I don't agre that he would do it through illusion of Sammael. Myrddraals wouldn't obey to an image of a known Forsaken, they would obey only to a unvisible sign only the 13 Forsaken (and maybe Slayer due to his activity in Two Rivers) are supposed to have. But Fain is known to be able to "convince" Myrddraals.

As about Taim - for to command Myrddraals he must become a sign from the Dark One. For to become this sign he must either go to Shayol Ghul or to be visited by Shaidar Haran. If anybody wants to defend the idea that Taim has such sign, we need something making us to suggest that Taim either visited Do or was visited by his Hand. The first is not easy at all, especially for a person who would act so drastically against Morridin's plans. The second would mean that Shadar Haran is much more different in his plans from Morridin than it seems for us the observers. In both cases it's problematic.

Lauric: 2005-10-26

Well, we don't have PoV of taim. Nor have we seen much of his activities in recent books. On top of that, he often Travels on "recruiting" missions, which one of could quite possibly have either been to Shayol Ghul or a meeting with SH.

Now, on the topic of their plans not coinciding. Well, what's our favorite saying (repeated at the end of KoD)?

Let the Lord of Chaos rule.

Callandor: 2005-10-26

**As for using them as his strongest, obviously. They are his strongest. But if Taim can hold near as much as Rand, that puts him either on par or close to the others, so strength cannot play part in him not being Chosen.**

Forsaken aren't who they are in strength alone. Look at Asmodean and Moghedien.

**They've been brought back when they died because the DO has very little stock in 3rd age channelers that can match the Forsaken in strength/skill. Taim can strength-wise, if he's near Rand in power, and we're led to believe he was Forsaken trained, so can probably get up there in skill.**

You're missing the elitism the Dark One has toward channelers from the Age of Legends. They think they're superior, in all forms, they're attitudes filter back to the Dark One, so now he thinks they're superior in all forms. This would be from the Q&A -- but their site is still horribly linked and can't access the earlier questions.

**I'll restate again just for effect. That is unknown how much of a Darkfriend he is. Thats exactly what i'm saying, we DON'T know, but it's POSSIBLE that he's been Chosen by the DO.**

Again, why? He's a 3rd Ager, there are still plenty of the Forsaken left, and the Dark One looks down on those not from the Age of Legends as inferior.

**It's only unlikely if you don't believe Taim has been Chosen, which obviously you don't, so it's just repetition (like my repeating your quote above), and is thus really not an argument... just a statement of 'fact' as you see it. Fact requires proof.**

You say it's unknown if Taim is a Forsaken. But we know Demandred is. Do you require proof that Demandred is a Forsaken?

**Fain, on the other hand, doesn't take orders from anyone. Doesn't care to take orders from anyone. Plus we've been shown he can control shadowspawn, but we havn't been shown much of his abilities. He's been absent for a while and last we really saw him a lot, it seemed his power was ever increasing, so we really don't know what to expect. Ergo, he is not just 'thrown in', but is a valid candidate for the identity.**

Do you just want me to repeat my reasons again? Ok:

1. He's not a Forsaken.

2. We've seen him control one Myrddraal -- not hundreds.

3. We've never seen him make an illusion around himself.

4. It's completely unknown if said illusion would work in controlling Shadowspawn anyway.

Fain is just a throw in because he can find Rand, and people are expanding his abilities to the extreme.

**How do we know that the Myrddraals are ordered by someone with Sammael's appearance or identification? We know only that somebody ordered these Myrddraals into the Ways and they went there. And that there is something in style that could point to Sammael.**

Because Moridin said it was Sammael or someone posing as Sammael. Why he is so specific about it is unknown, but he says he doesn't know where they went, not that he didn't know it was Sammael or someone posing as him sending the Shadowspawn. He's clear on his point: Sammael or an impersonator was involved.

**For to become this sign he must either go to Shayol Ghul or to be visited by Shaidar Haran.**

Shaidar Haran is an unknown. Jordan himself pointed out that what Shaidar Haran did to Alviarin was not a Forsaken marking, she could not control Shadowspawn (they would know she was marked though), and she was not any sort of Forsaken or lesser Forsaken. Shayol Ghul is the only known source of these markings of control.

**On top of that, he often Travels on "recruiting" missions, which one of could quite possibly have either been to Shayol Ghul or a meeting with SH.**

Actually he doesn't. He leaves that to the more experienced channelers now, except for the rare occasion like going to the Two Rivers.

**Now, on the topic of their plans not coinciding. Well, what's our favorite saying (repeated at the end of KoD)?

Let the Lord of Chaos rule.**

But we've seen Moridin and Shaidar Haran's plans mesh very well together.

Tristin: 2005-10-27

Against Callandor's points:

1. We've never seen him put an illusion around himself. Fair enough, how do we know he wasn't chill'n out in a tree somewhere casting out in front of him, but if he can make illusions as specific as we've seen them in the past (walking up stairs and talking) it seems he could probably put one around himself without much difficulty.

2. he can control one myrddraal but who says he can control hundreds. I think Moridin says that it was only 100 myrdraal that were sent :-). And anyways, if you convince one that you are Sammael you convince the rest.

a dragonburned fool: 2005-10-27

Callandor wrote: ***1. He's not a Forsaken. 2. We've seen him control one Myrddraal -- not hundreds. 3. We've never seen him make an illusion around himself. 4. It's completely unknown if said illusion would work in controlling Shadowspawn anyway.***

About 2. it's not true. In tSR it was not his direct command, but the practical result of Fain's actions was manipulating Slayer into sending much more Trollocs and Myrddraal than landed into Two Rivers. It's Fain's point that he is who made Slayer to send the additional Shadowspawn. Fain didn't sent them directly, but it was Fain's will actually. So he is able to affect movement of large armies of Shadowspawn. The fact theat he is not Forsaken only makes believable such blattant and open unobedience to the Nae'blis.

As about points 3. and 4., I'm only appreciating Callandor's efforts here. Illusion cannot work here. It's absurd the very idea that one can make an illusion and make Fades obey. Fades obey not to visible appearance but to an unvisible sign. Unless they are convinced otherwise (as Fain prove to be able to do). And again, we have no indication that anybody appeared anywhere in the shape of Sammael. We only know that Myrddraals obeyed an order and that there was something of Sammael's style in it. As about Sammael's death, why do you think anybody of the Shadow knows how Sammael died. Rand was the only surviving witness,a nd he told no story about Sammael's manner of death. Rand just said that Sammael is dead, period... but because of Sammael's manner of death DO could fail to receive signal of Sammael's thread becomming an end... For the Shadow Sammael is just missing and one not so reliable source (Rand) barely says that Sammael is dead without explaining any circumstances. So he could become a suspect under the circumstances because Moridin doesn't know that Sammael "is toast" like we know it.

Lauric: 2005-10-27

"Forsaken aren't who they are in strength alone. Look at Asmodean and Moghedien."

In the Third Age, the term "Forsaken" is used to refer to the thirteen who were caught in the sealing of the Bore. According to the Guide [Guide: 5, The DO and the Male Forsaken, 50], those thirteen were the most powerful of the Chosen (WotFaq)

"You're missing the elitism the Dark One has toward channelers from the Age of Legends. They think they're superior, in all forms, they're attitudes filter back to the Dark One, so now he thinks they're superior in all forms. This would be from the Q&A -- but their site is still horribly linked and can't access the earlier questions."

The elitism is not from the Dark One. That is strictly the Chosen thinking they are better than everyone. I have never seen hide nor hair of the DO being an Elitist about the Age of Legends. I'll need proof on this, not just you saying it's that way.

"It's only unlikely if you don't believe Taim has been Chosen, which obviously you don't, so it's just repetition (like my repeating your quote above), and is thus really not an argument... just a statement of 'fact' as you see it. Fact requires proof.

You say it's unknown if Taim is a Forsaken. But we know Demandred is. Do you require proof that Demandred is a Forsaken?"

My response here was in reference to this:

"Unlikely. Demandred we know is a Forsaken, and can order Trollocs and Myrddraal. Taim -- it's unlikely he is quite that high."

What I meant there is this: Why is it unlikely? Just because you say so? Sorry, but thats just not as convincing as you hope it will be. If Jordan said Taim was not a Chosen, thats one thing, but you saying it because you don't believe Does. Not. Make. It. True.

Lauric: 2005-10-27

[quote]But we've seen Moridin and Shaidar Haran's plans mesh very well together.[/quote]

***WinespringBrother: Is Shaidar Haran an avatar to the world beyond the Bore?

Jordan: I am not certain you can really call him an avatar because I generally think of an avatar as having exactly the same powers as, and it is not, Shaidar Haran does not have nearly as much power as the Dark One. Itâ€™s as though the Dark One is able to project a shadowy form of himself into this creatureâ€¦it is the Dark One in shadowy form.***

Emphasis Mine. Of course Moridin's and Shaidar's plans are coinciding, Shaidar is a direct representation of the Dark One. However, we go back to letting the lord of chaos rule. It wouldn't be odd for the Dark One to give two counteracting orders to promote chaos.

(Sorry for the double post, wasn't sure i'd be able to find the above question/answer)

Anubis: 2005-10-27

**The elitism is not from the Dark One. That is strictly the Chosen thinking they are better than everyone. I have never seen hide nor hair of the DO being an Elitist about the Age of Legends. I'll need proof on this, not just you saying it's that way.**

RJ has said that the Dark One has an Elitist attitude toward the Forsaken, but it is caused by the Forsaken being his main view of the outside world. Perhaps with the advent of Shaidar Haran that will change, but it hasnt yet that we know of.

Lauric: 2005-10-27

The Dark One has the Forsaken bias toward AOL channelers, because the Forsaken are his only link to the outside world. Ok, yes.

If Ishamael brought Taim (if we are to believe he was taught by Ishy) to Shayol Ghul, then whats to stop the Dark One getting his own opinion of Taim?

silverwolf: 2005-10-28

Those of us who don't believe Taim is on a level with the Forsaken believe so because there is no evidence that he has risen that high in darkfriend ranks. Yes, he has command of the Black Tower--but that is not a rank within the shadow, and we have numerous quotes that rank in the shadow has nothing to do with rank in the outside world (beggars giving orders to lords, etc.). Secondly, all of the channelers from this age that we have seen have been kept far below the Forsaken--the Black Ajah, for example, is snapped up by any Forsaken who wants it, and even Alviarin (the head of the Black Ajah) is kept on the status of a low ranking servant rather than that of an equal.

Basically, if you want to convince anyone that Taim is Forsaken-level, you're going to have to come up with some evidence for it.

Traveller: 2005-10-28

I think that it is very possible to be Fain- I agree with the whole Fain-Mordeth-Mashadar-Sammael thing, but I think it is a matter of motive.

In my mind there is no way that Fain would want anyone else to kill Rand (we have seen instances of this in the past) which gives us the options:

1.) to force Rand to make a move- possibly towards a trap

2.) to force the Dark side to make a move (Fain seems to hate the Forsaken etc)

3.) to create chaos (I don't know if Fain is in on 'let the Lord of Chaos rule' but he might have had seperate instructions)

4.) (unlikely) he was bored and wanted to kill some random people

5.) it wasn't Fain

There may be other options, but these are some I can think of off the top of my head. Because of the fact that the overwhelming odds made it so likely that rand could have died in the attack, I think that the ideas of baiting Rand into doing soething are unlikely, and therefore lead me to think that mybe it wan't Fain. The fact that it is so impersonal in that the person who sent them didn't lead them, it suggests Moghedien or someone trying to hide who they are (perhaps Taim).

Callandor: 2005-10-28

** how do we know he wasn't chill'n out in a tree somewhere casting out in front of him, but if he can make illusions as specific as we've seen them in the past (walking up stairs and talking) it seems he could probably put one around himself without much difficulty.**

Uh, we saw Fain right by where the illusion made... Otherwise, what are you talking about?

**2. he can control one myrddraal but who says he can control hundreds. I think Moridin says that it was only 100 myrdraal that were sent :-). And anyways, if you convince one that you are Sammael you convince the rest.**

You're going to have to quote Moridin on it for I believe it was hundreds.

And the point is that Fain doesn't convince Myrddraal that he is someone -- one feared him like a Trolloc feared a Myrddraal.

**It's Fain's point that he is who made Slayer to send the additional Shadowspawn. Fain didn't sent them directly, but it was Fain's will actually. So he is able to affect movement of large armies of Shadowspawn. The fact theat he is not Forsaken only makes believable such blattant and open unobedience to the Nae'blis.**

What are you talking about? It was Slayer that sent the large amount of Trollocs -- to get Fain.

**In the Third Age, the term "Forsaken" is used to refer to the thirteen who were caught in the sealing of the Bore. According to the Guide [Guide: 5, The DO and the Male Forsaken, 50], those thirteen were the most powerful of the Chosen (WotFaq)**

Yes, and you're point being?

The Forsaken are the ones that come from the Age of Legends -- they're the ones the Dark One favors and believes in and trusts more than anyone.

**The elitism is not from the Dark One. That is strictly the Chosen thinking they are better than everyone. I have never seen hide nor hair of the DO being an Elitist about the Age of Legends. I'll need proof on this, not just you saying it's that way.**

Again, I would give you the proof -- it's on the Tor Q&A site. But the links back to their older interviews only link back to their current ones minus the last two questions. They still haven't fixed it.

It's the Forsaken's elitist actions, flitering to the Dark One.

**What I meant there is this: Why is it unlikely? Just because you say so?**

Look above, and go off of what we know.

1. The Forsaken are being reused when they can be brought back.

2. The Forsaken themselves attest to there being so few of them and the Dark One refers to the Chosen dwinding.

3. The Dark One's own elitist attitudes toward the Forsaken over any Third Agers.

**Emphasis Mine. Of course Moridin's and Shaidar's plans are coinciding, Shaidar is a direct representation of the Dark One. However, we go back to letting the lord of chaos rule. It wouldn't be odd for the Dark One to give two counteracting orders to promote chaos.**

Uh, why? The Dark One's plan is for chaos to rule -- so if they both are going for promoting chaos, it's not conflicting orders.

And it's not their plans working well together -- it's Shaidar Haran working specifically for Moridin. Who brings Moghedien from her prison to Moridin? Shaidar Haran. Who summons Graendal to Moridin, first using two of Moridin's trusted lackies? Shaidar Haran. Who is the one who punishes Mesaana for not showing up at the Cleansing, as Moridin ordered? Shaidar Haran.

**If Ishamael brought Taim (if we are to believe he was taught by Ishy) to Shayol Ghul, then whats to stop the Dark One getting his own opinion of Taim?**

The fact that he has an elitist attitude against him from the start?

Again -- the Dark One does not view Third Agers as anywhere near as good as the Forsaken.

Anubis: 2005-10-28

**If Ishamael brought Taim (if we are to believe he was taught by Ishy) to Shayol Ghul, then whats to stop the Dark One getting his own opinion of Taim?**

Who is to say Ishamael brought Taim to SG? Thats a HIGH honor for darkfriends. Alvarian was in shock when Fain said he had been there.

And besides, if Ishy did bring Taim, he brought him as a student and an underling.

Wompat: 2005-10-29

we know that fain can control myrdrraal from tsr, so i think it only stands to reason that he sent the trollocs, i vaguely remember RJ saying sammy was a gonner, and moridin wasnt sure who sent them so its only logical for him to think that it was sammy since fain has been keeping a low profile in the eyes of the forsaken since tsr, and since no one actually saw sammy die it adds to the fact that moridin would think it him. after all, to our knowledge we dont know that fain and moridin have met, so there's no reason for him to suspect him

silverwolf: 2005-10-29

"'Sammael, or someone diguised as him, gave orders to Myrdraal, and they obeyed, so it was one of the Chosen.' Moridin scanned around the chairs as though he could detect who it had been."

Based on this (KoD, p. 147), Moridin wasn't just guessing that it was Sammael due to mysterious circumstances regarding Sammael's death--he had to have had some sort of reason to believe it was Sammael rather than any of the others. This quote also indicates that it wasn't Fain--Moridin believes that only a Chosen could command the shadowspawn and have them listen (at the very least, that only the Chosen could get shadowspawn into the Ways). While Fain can rule over a single myrdraal, I think he would be unable to command any more than he could overpower and force to fear him, and a hundred is certainly beyond his ability. Only someone marked as a Forsaken could have commanded it, IMO, based on the quote from Moridin.

And, Callandor, it was a hundred, not hundreds--"'But they sent a hundred Myrdraal and thousands of Trollocs into the Ways.'" (KoD, p. 147) Not that I see how it has anything to do with this--one hundred or several hundred, either is beyond Fain's ability to intimidate.

Callandor: 2005-10-30

**we know that fain can control myrdrraal from tsr, so i think it only stands to reason that he sent the trollocs**

We've seen Fain order a Myrddraal. A Myrddraal he had to capture, and make a "deal" with.

Not hundreds of Myrddraal at once.

**after all, to our knowledge we dont know that fain and moridin have met, so there's no reason for him to suspect him**

Moridin is Ishamael transmigrated. Ishamael was the one that picked Fain out to be distilled, and he's the one that had been ordering him to find Rand. He's also the one that ordered Slayer to kill Fain.

Moridin more than knows of Fain.

terez: 2005-10-31

Arguments for Fain: Fain has proved he has unprecedented power over Myrdraal. Fain can sense Rand's whereabouts. Fain has created illusions before.

Arguments against Fain: Fain has only been seen to command one Myrdraal. Fain is not known to be able to impersonate anyone. Fain wants to kill Rand personally.

One point that I feel has been severely overlooked is that Fain captured the Myrdraal in the Shadow Rising without the dagger, which he got back in the Fires of Heaven. He was insane and gibbering without it - when he regains it, he is insane and confident. Also, the "deal" with the Myrdraal is suggestive:

TITLE: The Shadow Rising CHAPTER 31, "Assurances"

"Have you thought over my proposal? Accept, and you walk free. Refuse . . . . I know how to hurt your sort. I can make you scream through endless dying. Forever dying, forever screaming."

The chains hummed at a jerk; the stakes driven deep into the ground creaked. "Very well." The Myrddraal's voice was dried snakeskin crumbling. "I accept. Release me."

Ordeith smiled. It thought him a fool. It would learn. They all would. "First, the matter of . . . shall we say, agreements and accord?" As he talked, the Myrdraal began to sweat.

Fain was in complete control of this "deal." He obviously has the ability to torture Myrdraal. This is also evidence that Mordeth and Mashadar are intertwined. Remember the army of Shadowspawn that camped inside the walls of Shadar Logoth? I imagine it is something like this that the captured Fade fears. And what exactly did the Myrdraal agree to? What was Fain's proposal? Even after the Fade agreed, Fain broke him down even more. First the Fade demanded Fain release him, and Fain ignored him. The details of the "proposal" made the Fade sweat. And that was apparently only the beginning.

"The only connection is that Mordeth somehow survived. Mashadar is unrelated to him due to it being a mindless, slightly glowing fog -- roughly equivalent of the manifestation of the hate/evil that is the city.â€ (Callandor)

This isnâ€™t exactly true. Here are a couple of pieces of evidence that Mordeth and Mashadar are uniquely tied:

TITLE: The Eye of the World CHAPTER 19, â€œShadowâ€™s Waitingâ€

â€œMordeth alone was not consumed by Mashadar, but he was snared by it, and he, too, has waited within these walls through the long centuries. Others have seen him. Some he has influenced through gifts that twist the mind and taint the spirit, the taint waxing and waning until it rules . . . or kills.â€ (Moiraine)

(earlier in the chapter)

â€œSuddenly Rand realized what had been nagging at him about the man. The scattered torches in the hallway had given each of them a ring of shadows, just as the torches in the treasure room did. Only . . . . He was so shocked he said it out loud. â€œYou donâ€™t have a shadow.â€

A goblet fell from Matâ€™s hand with a crash.

Mordeth nodded, and for the first time his fleshy eyelids opened all the way. His sleek face suddenly appeared pinched and hungry. â€œSo.â€ He stood straighter, seeming taller. â€œIt is decided.â€ Abruptly there was no seeming to it. Like a balloon Mordeth swelled, distorted, head pressed against the ceiling, shoulders butting the walls, filling the end of the room, cutting off escape. Hollow-cheeked, teeth bared in a rictus snarl, he reached out with hands big enough to engulf a manâ€™s head...

...Something moved in the deepest part of the shadows left by the torches, and they all jumped. It was Mordeth, clutching his knees to his chest and huddled as deep into the furthest corner as he could get.

â€œHe tricked us,â€ Mat panted. â€œIt was some kind of trick.â€

â€œMordeth threw back his head and wailed; dust sifted down as the walls trembled. â€œYou are all dead!â€ he cried. â€œAll dead!â€ And he leaped up, diving across the room.

Randâ€™s jaw dropped, and he almost dropped the sword as well. As Mordeth dove through the air, he stretched out and thinned, like a tendril of smoke. As thin as a finger he struck a crack in the wall tiles and vanished into it. A last cry hung in the room as he vanished, fading slowly away after he was gone.

â€œYou are all dead!â€

This shows that Mordeth and Mashadar are much alike, if not wholly intertwined. Mordeth whispered the poison that created Mashadar, and was snared by it for 2000 years - until Fain freed him. Rather than Fain's soul being consumed by Mordeth, Fain's soul consumed Mordeth, and whatever qualities of Mashadar that Mordeth contained.

â€œ...we've never seen Fain put an illusion around himself and it's completely debatable whether an illusion would work anyway since we know it has to do with being marked as a Forsaken by the Dark One to control Shadowspawn.â€ (Callandor)

Mordeth has shown the ability to put an illusion around himself, and Fain has shown the ability to make illusions of other people. It's possible that he can't do it, but it's probable that he can. And the requirement of the Mark of the Chosen is null and void in Fain's case.

â€œFain is just a throw in because he can find Rand, and people are expanding his abilities to the extreme.â€ (Callandor)

Not so. Fain has been expanding his abilities on his own, without our help, and he's done it consistently since book one chapter one, and before.

At least as far as we know from his POVs, of which we have lately been deprived.

â€œAnd the point is that Fain doesn't convince Myrddraal that he is someone -- one feared him like a Trolloc feared a Myrddraal.â€ (Callandor)

Oh yes, he does convince the Myrdraal he "is" someone. The Myrdraal was sweating. Remember? Even still, if the Myrdraal feared Fain as a Trolloc fears a Myrdraal - how many Trollocs can a Myrdraal command? Very suggestive, don't you think?

â€œMoridin is Ishamael transmigrated. Ishamael was the one that picked Fain out to be distilled, and he's the one that had been ordering him to find Rand. He's also the one that ordered Slayer to kill Fain.

Moridin more than knows of Fain.â€ (Callandor)

Why yes, he does. All the more reason for him to hide the evidence of the monster he has created. The renegade that dares disobey him. All the more reason for him to want his subordinate Chosen to believe Sammael is back, or anyone, rather than discover a renegade

Darkfriend has given the great Nae'blis the finger and stolen Shadowspawn out from under his nose, and from under the nose of his faithful hound, Slayer.

I also don't really think Fain necessarily feels the need to kill Rand with his own hands. He might have come to the conclusion that he cannot. Even still, it's possible he ordered the "Vows" Myrdraal to capture Rand, or to divert him, or to harry him, or to test his strength. I think he ordered them to kill him, if possible. He wants Rand dead.

TITLE: The Fires of Heaven PROLOGUE, "The First Sparks Fall"

Because of that young man he had suffered far worse than pain. He had been broken and remade because of al'Thor. Of course, that remaking gave him the means of revenge, but that was beside the point. Beside his desire for al'Thor's destruction, everything else dimmed from sight.

"Ordeith smiled. It thought him a fool. It would learn. They all would."

Fain obviously intends to show "all" Myrdraal that he's the boss. He's pretty confident about it.

(FoH prologue again)

Padan Fain. Mordeth. Ordeith. Sometimes he was uncertain which name was really his, who he really was. One thing was sure. He was not what anyone thought. Those who believed they knew him were badly mistaken. He was transfigured, now. A force unto himself, and beyond any other power. They would all learn, eventually.

Maybe we'll learn too. :)

Callandor: 2005-10-31

**One point that I feel has been severely overlooked is that Fain captured the Myrdraal in the Shadow Rising without the dagger, which he got back in the Fires of Heaven. He was insane and gibbering without it - when he regains it, he is insane and confident. Also, the "deal" with the Myrdraal is suggestive:**

That is why I put deal in quotes.

**This is also evidence that Mordeth and Mashadar are intertwined.**

No.

Fain is himself and Mordeth merged. Mashadar is a completely seperate entity.

**This isnâ€™t exactly true. Here are a couple of pieces of evidence that Mordeth and Mashadar are uniquely tied**

Yes... and my words are exactly what you're quotes prove. Mordeth is only linked to Mashadar because he is the only thing other than Mashadar to survive. They're not working together, messed together, or anything. Mordeth was a person. Mashadar, is the mindless grey slightly glowing fog that kills anything it touches -- a phyiscal manifestation of the evil of Shadar Logoth. Even RJ said that Mashadar appeared after everyone in Shadar Logoth had killed each other.

**This shows that Mordeth and Mashadar are much alike, if not wholly intertwined. Mordeth whispered the poison that created Mashadar, and was snared by it for 2000 years - until Fain freed him. Rather than Fain's soul being consumed by Mordeth, Fain's soul consumed Mordeth, and whatever qualities of Mashadar that Mordeth contained.**

Again, Mashadar is not linked to Mordeth, other than they both survived in Shadar Logoth.

**Mordeth has shown the ability to put an illusion around himself, and Fain has shown the ability to make illusions of other people. It's possible that he can't do it, but it's probable that he can. And the requirement of the Mark of the Chosen is null and void in Fain's case.**

1. Where has Mordeth shown this ability?

2. We've seen Fain break a captured Myrddraal. One -- captured -- Myrddraal. Not command a hundred of them at once.

**Not so. Fain has been expanding his abilities on his own, without our help, and he's done it consistently since book one chapter one, and before.

At least as far as we know from his POVs, of which we have lately been deprived.**

As I said -- Fain is a throw in. You're basically saying "We can't say he can't do this, so he did."

We know a Forsaken can impersonate each other if need be.

We know there are Forsaken more than willing to go behind Ishamael/Moridin's back.

We know these Forsaken can command large amounts of Shadowspawn.

We know there is a Darkfriend amongst Rand's group to give away his location.

**Oh yes, he does convince the Myrdraal he "is" someone. The Myrdraal was sweating. Remember? Even still, if the Myrdraal feared Fain as a Trolloc fears a Myrdraal - how many Trollocs can a Myrdraal command? Very suggestive, don't you think?**

Uh, yeah, he's sweating cause he's scared. What aren't you getting?

Very suggestive? Of what? That he can make a Myrddraal do what he wants when he has a captured ONE to work with?

**Why yes, he does. All the more reason for him to hide the evidence of the monster he has created. The renegade that dares disobey him. All the more reason for him to want his subordinate Chosen to believe Sammael is back, or anyone, rather than discover a renegade**

So, Moridin is covering for Fain? How would he know, anyway, since he believes it's Sammael or someone impersonating Sammael?

**Darkfriend has given the great Nae'blis the finger and stolen Shadowspawn out from under his nose, and from under the nose of his faithful hound, Slayer.**

All the more reason to find him and kill him -- not ignore him and cover it up.

**I also don't really think Fain necessarily feels the need to kill Rand with his own hands.**

Are you kidding me?

**TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 34 - The Wheel Weaves

"Fain let the grimacing Huan pull him out of the room, hardly even listening to the snarled lecture on what would happen if he ever again failed to leave Lord Turak's presence when given permission to do so. He barely noticed when he was pushed into the street with a coin and instructions to return on the morrow. Rand al'Thor was his, now. I will see him dead at last. And then the world will pay for what was done to me.**

Fain even flat out says that only he will kill Rand:

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 28 - Letters

It was hard for him to concentrate on one thing for long anyway. Except Rand al'Thor, of course. He could feel al'Thor, could point to him, this close. Al'Thor pulled at him, pulled till it hurt. There was a difference lately, a difference that had come suddenly, almost as if someone else had suddenly taken a partial possession of al'Thor, and in doing so pushed away a part of Fain's own possession. No matter. Al'Thor belonged to him.

...

Fain felt his smile become a snarl. Trying to kill al'Thor? Al'Thor was his! Al'Thor would die by his hand, no other! Wait. The assassin had gotten past the Aiel, into al'Thor's rooms? "A Gray Man!" He did not recognize that grating sound as his own voice. Gray Men meant the Chosen. Would he never be free of their interference?**

**He wants Rand dead.**

He does, but you're missing two things:

1. He wants to cause Rand as much pain and suffering as possible -- doubtful he's sufficed with this yet.

2. He wants to kill Rand himself.

**Fain obviously intends to show "all" Myrdraal that he's the boss. He's pretty confident about it.**

Fain is obviously refering to all people who thinks he's a fool or those he thinks they think he's a fool (IE: his enemies).

JakOShadows: 2005-11-02

Callandor:

I believe you have taken on the role of ludicrous idea killer at theoryland here. congrats.

As to the theory, it doesn't seem to be the methods that Fain would work in. He despises trollocs and myrrdael, and also wants to kill Fain himself. He may be able to scare a hundred myrdael, but the fact is why would hide he is doing it or pose as Sammy. He has no reason to do that either.

It seems to Moridin knows for a fact that it was someone posing as Sammy and a chosen because he could command the myrrdael. And as to who would do that, I believe it is Demandred. Because Semirhage is plotting in the tower along with Mesaana, and also was captured when she was posing as the DotNM, so she would not send enough trollocs to kill Rand when she was trying to capture him and control him with the adam. And then Aran'gar didn't do it because it was from her pov, and she was manipulating Egwene. Greandal is obviously out there on her own without an ally, and she is also not one to take on Rand. The only angle for her would be to make people think Sammy is alive, so they won't see her split of from the herd. She would want them to see her as dangerous, but attacking Rand against Moridin's orders is a little risky for her taste. So the only other candidate is Demandred. And it makes since in my mind. Because his mode of operation is confrontation, but from an unknown source. For example, Taim and the black tower. I'm fairly certain Demandred is manipulating and using Taim to attack at Rand from another direction, without drawing attention to himself. And then it is suspected he is involved with events in Ghealdean and Masema. So it seems in keeping with everything he is suspected of in the past. That and Arangar's comment of what he said hints at the possibility.

terez: 2005-11-05

â€œMashadar is not linked to Mordeth, other than they both survived in Shadar Logoth.â€ (Callandor)

What about the fact that Mordeth pretty much created Mashadar? Obviously, he didnâ€™t intend to create something exactly like Mashadar, or he would have created something that directly did his bidding, and not something that would hold him captive. But the poison that he whispered and the suspicion that he planted are what created Mashadar â€“ since it has been made clear by RJ that it has nothing to do with the Shadow, directly. The effects of Mordethâ€™s agenda in Aridhol are apparently unprecedented. If Mashadar is not a product of Mordeth's work in some way, where exactly did it come from? And why is Mordeth able to take the form of something like Mashadar? That Mashadar came to Aridhol after everyone was dead doesnâ€™t mean that Mordeth and Mashadar are unconnected. Also, what gave Mordeth his powers, if not Mashadar?

â€œ1. Where has Mordeth shown this ability?â€

I was referring to the swelling illusion Mordeth used in the treasure room, when Rand discovered he had no shadow. Iâ€™m assuming it was an illusion, but I could be wrong â€“ he could have actually swelled, seeing as how he can transform himself into a vapor. I donâ€™t know if these abilities are due to the fact that he had no actual body, or if they were a gift from Mashadar, or if he would retain these abilities in Fainâ€™s body. Are we absolutely positive that the fog in the Cairhien rebel camp was a bubble of evil? It appeared as soon as Fain was uncovered, didnâ€™t it? Wouldnâ€™t it stand to reason that Fain created it?

â€œ2. We've seen Fain break a captured Myrddraal. One -- captured -- Myrddraal. Not command a hundred of them at once.â€

There is absolutely no reason to believe that Fain cannot do this repeatedly, just because we've only had the pleasure of seeing it this one time. You didnâ€™t address the fact that Fain was incomplete at that time â€“ without the dagger. Also, you havenâ€™t made any comment about what you think that â€œdealâ€ consisted of. What kind of deal would make a Myrddraal nervous? For one, forcing the Myrddraal to betray his masters, the Chosen, would probably make him nervous. It doesnâ€™t seem to have taken very much effort for Fain to capture and convince this Myrddraal. With the power of the dagger, Iâ€™m sure he wouldnâ€™t have a hard time at all capturing several of them, and with enough time, hundreds.

â€œUh, yeah, he's sweating cause he's scared. What aren't you getting?â€

What I donâ€™t get is why you donâ€™t think the Myrddraalâ€™s fear is a big deal. The Myrddraal fear nothing but their masters, the Chosen. The Myrddraalâ€™s fear makes it evident to me that Fain can control them with relatively little effort, and I see no reason why this one wouldnâ€™t just be the beginning.

â€œVery suggestive? Of what? That he can make a Myrddraal do what he wants when he has a captured ONE to work with?â€

Yes, thatâ€™s what I meant. It was Fain that captured the Myrddraal, at a time when he was weakened without the dagger. You said that the Myrddraal feared Fain like a Trolloc feared a Myrddraal. Iâ€™m suggesting that I see no reason that Fain could not control just as many Myrddraal as Myrddraal can control Trollocs. Not in the same fashion, obviously. Fain might have to capture each Myrddraal individually, but the means to do so likely could have come from his â€œdealâ€ with the Myrddraal he captured, and could also likely be much easier to do with the dagger in his possession.

â€œSo, Moridin is covering for Fain? How would he know, anyway, since he believes it's Sammael or someone impersonating Sammael?â€

Not covering for Fain, but covering up his own mistake. That Fain has gotten out of his control, and become his own powerful entity, is not something to inspire fear in his subordinate Chosen, and certainly not something he would want them to know about. Also, there is no real evidence that Moridin actually believes it was Sammael, or even someone impersonating Sammael â€“ the quote is not from his POV. He admits that he does not know what the orders were. How, then, does he know that it was Sammael, or someone impersonating Sammael? If he had gotten the information from one of the Shadowspawn that was given the orders, why would they not know what the orders were? Possibly, Fain was able to use his ability to torture Myrddraal to make sure they did not tell. Do we have any evidence that any of the Chosen have the ability to control, or repel, or defend against Machin Shin? It's possible that Moridin is aware of Fain's relationship with the Black Wind, and it's very likely that he knows Fain had made extensive use of the Ways since he, as Ishamael, ordered Fain to lead Shadowspawn into Emond's Field on Winternight.

â€œ1. He wants to cause Rand as much pain and suffering as possible -- doubtful he's sufficed with this yet.â€

Yes, I didnâ€™t miss that. There is still the possibility that the Shadowspawn were ordered to attempt to capture Rand. I know thereâ€™s little reason to think Fain would know of forkroot, but that would enable them to capture him. If they were able to hit him in the head properly, that would work too.

â€œ2. He wants to kill Rand himself.â€

Yes, thatâ€™s true, but what if he has come to the conclusion that he cannot? Fain last attempted to do this in Far Madding, where Rand would have no use of the Power, and he failed. His main source of aggravation with the Gray Men, and the Chosen, is that he wanted the joy of Randâ€™s death to be from him, not from them. With his previous failures, would he perhaps settle for Randâ€™s death coming at his orders, if not his own hands? I am aware that he REALLY wants to do it with his own hands. But, again, what if he feels like he no longer can? Surely, if this were the case, he would at least try to see it done by his orders, before any of the Chosen beat him to the pleasure. Iâ€™m sure Fain can see the signs just like anyone else, and he knows his time is running out.

â€œAs I said -- Fain is a throw in. You're basically saying â€˜We can't say he can't do this, so he did.â€™"

Thatâ€™s not what Iâ€™m saying at all â€“ Iâ€™m just saying that itâ€™s a strong possibility, and I think that Fain has more reason to try this, because his desperation is surely growing, and less reason not to (heâ€™s not concerned about defying the DOâ€™s orders.)

Franco13: 2005-11-05

Your theory mirrors my own thoughts...a good and compelling arguement.

JakOShadows: 2005-11-06

"There is absolutely no reason to believe that Fain cannot do this repeatedly, just because we've only had the pleasure of seeing it this one time. You didnâ€™t address the fact that Fain was incomplete at that time â€“ without the dagger. Also, you havenâ€™t made any comment about what you think that â€œdealâ€ consisted of."

It just doesn't seem like Fain to use this method. In the books, it is clear that he is insane in the fact that he wants to kill Rand personally, so why all of the sudden would he send trollocs because doesn't think that he could personally do it. That would seem like too logical a conclusion for a mad man.

"He admits that he does not know what the orders were. How, then, does he know that it was Sammael, or someone impersonating Sammael? If he had gotten the information from one of the Shadowspawn that was given the orders, why would they not know what the orders were? Possibly, Fain was able to use his ability to torture Myrddraal to make sure they did not tell."

Again, too much trickery and such to be Fain. It's not like Fain to hide that he's doing it. He makes no effort to lead the evidence towards someone else in WH. So why would he go to all the effort now? Again, a mad man would not think this way.

"Yes, thatâ€™s true, but what if he has come to the conclusion that he cannot? Fain last attempted to do this in Far Madding, where Rand would have no use of the Power, and he failed."

Yes, but it didn't come out as a complete failure in my mind. He may not have killed Rand, but he predicted where he is coming and was almost successful at it too. So why would that discourage him.

silverwolf: 2005-11-06

Fain is mad; why would he suddenly display logical thinking and come to the conclusion that he can't kill Rand himself? The past two times, he's come pretty damn close.

Also, Fain did not lead the trollocs to the two rivers on winternight--he marked out the targets to the myrdraal. He had not been in the ways yet--not until Caemlyn. If he had come into contact with Machin Shin, he would most likely be dead--he hadn't been boosted by Mordeth yet.

Your suggestion that he could capture the myrdraal, one by one, and turn them to his will is somewhat ludicrous--there isn't enough time for that, even if he could isolate individual myrdraal repeatedly, between WH and KoD.

And, while we have no particular reason to believe Moridin that it was someone impersonating Sammael, we have no particular reason not to, either. I can't see any advantage to him just making that up, so I'd tend to take him at his word there.

Callandor: 2005-11-06

**What about the fact that Mordeth pretty much created Mashadar?**

He didn't!

Mordeth went to Aridhol. He advised and started turning the city evil and against itself. Everyone became as black as the Shadow, and killed each other. THEN Mashadar came about.

**If Mashadar is not a product of Mordeth's work in some way, where exactly did it come from?**

It's a manifestation of the cities evil.

**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 19 - Shadow's Waiting

"The story is too long to tell in full, and too grim, and only fragments are known, even in Tar Valon. How Thorin's son, Caar, came to win Aridhol back to the Second Covenant, and Balwen sat his throne, a withered shell with the light of madness in his eyes, laughing while Mordeth smiled at his side and ordered, the deaths of Caar and the embassy as Friends of the Dark. How Prince Caar came to be called Caar One-Hand. How he escaped the dungeons of Aridhol and fled alone to the Borderlands with Mordeth's unnatural assassins at his heels. How there he met Rhea, who did not know who he was, and married her, and set the skein in the Pattern that led to his death at her hands, and hers by her own hand before his tomb, and the fall of Aleth-loriel. How the armies of Manetheren came to avenge Caar and found the gates of Aridhol torn down, no living thing inside the walls, but something worse than death. No enemy had come to Aridhol but Aridhol. Suspicion and hate had given birth to something that fed on that which created it, something locked in the bedrock on which the city stood. Mashadar waits still, hungering. Men spoke of Aridhol no more. They named it Shadar Logoth, the Place Where the Shadow Waits, or more simply, Shadow's Waiting.**

**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 20 - Dust on the Wind

"The evil of Shadar Logoth," Moiraine replied. "Mashadar. Unseeing, unthinking, moving through the city as aimlessly as a worm burrows through the earth. If it touches you, you will die." Rand and the others let their horses dance a few quick steps back, but not too far. As much as Rand would have given to be free of the Aes Sedai, she was as safe as home compared to what lay around them.**

**And why is Mordeth able to take the form of something like Mashadar?**

Because he's a free roaming soul?

**I was referring to the swelling illusion Mordeth used in the treasure room, when Rand discovered he had no shadow. Iâ€™m assuming it was an illusion, but I could be wrong â€“ he could have actually swelled, seeing as how he can transform himself into a vapor.**

Ah, yes, an Illusion, when the man completely disappeared from it.

Mordeth was a free moving soul -- him going through cracks isn't too far of a stretch.

**Are we absolutely positive that the fog in the Cairhien rebel camp was a bubble of evil? It appeared as soon as Fain was uncovered, didnâ€™t it? Wouldnâ€™t it stand to reason that Fain created it?**

Yes, we are absolutely 100% certain it was a bubble of evil.

**TITLE: Path of Daggers, CHAPTER: GLOSSARY

"Hanlon, Daved: A Darkfriend, formerly commander of the White Lions in service to the Forsaken Rahvin while he held Caemlyn using the name Lord Gaebril. From there, Hanlon took the White Lions to Cairhien under orders to further the rebellion against the Dragon Reborn. The White Lions were destroyed by a "bubble of evil," and Hanlon has been ordered back to Caemlyn for purposes as yet unknown."

Of course not -- but not to a hundred non-captured Myrddraal. There's a big difference you seem to be missing here.

**Also, you havenâ€™t made any comment about what you think that â€œdealâ€ consisted of. What kind of deal would make a Myrddraal nervous?**

How does it pertain to now? The Myrddraal obviously did it's job since A Crown of Swords because Fain was no longer with it.

**It doesnâ€™t seem to have taken very much effort for Fain to capture and convince this Myrddraal.**

Yes, only getting it, binding it, holding it for a time, and then convincing it.....

Not a lot of effort at all.

**What I donâ€™t get is why you donâ€™t think the Myrddraalâ€™s fear is a big deal.**

When have I said it wasn't??

**The Myrddraalâ€™s fear makes it evident to me that Fain can control them with relatively little effort, and I see no reason why this one wouldnâ€™t just be the beginning.**

Little effort?

Fain had to capture the Fade and bind it to the groundfor a period of time. How is that a little effort??

**It was Fain that captured the Myrddraal, at a time when he was weakened without the dagger.**

Right, because Fain was a weak nothing at the time. Yet, you're the one saying it was oh so easy for Fain. Pick one. Either he was incomplete and this was a horrendously hard task or it was a walk in the park for him and he was powerful.

** Iâ€™m suggesting that I see no reason that Fain could not control just as many Myrddraal as Myrddraal can control Trollocs.**

Then why did he even have to go to such lengths (and yes they were lengths) with the Myrddraal he had??

**Fain might have to capture each Myrddraal individually, but the means to do so likely could have come from his â€œdealâ€ with the Myrddraal he captured, and could also likely be much easier to do with the dagger in his possession.**

In his spare time while he was in Tar Valon and Caemlyn (where he was counting his resources even and not even thinking of having more than the one Myrddraal) and Cairhien while trying to destroy Rand's life....

**Not covering for Fain, but covering up his own mistake. That Fain has gotten out of his control, and become his own powerful entity, is not something to inspire fear in his subordinate Chosen, and certainly not something he would want them to know about.**

The Shadowspawn being moved is already an indication of that. Why would he care?

**Also, there is no real evidence that Moridin actually believes it was Sammael, or even someone impersonating Sammael â€“ the quote is not from his POV.**

Yes, because he's lying for no reason at all...

**Do we have any evidence that any of the Chosen have the ability to control, or repel, or defend against Machin Shin?**

No evidence on the subject at all, except the blatant examples of the Forsaken using the Ways to move Shadowspawn. Or are those lies as well?

**Yes, I didnâ€™t miss that. There is still the possibility that the Shadowspawn were ordered to attempt to capture Rand. I know thereâ€™s little reason to think Fain would know of forkroot, but that would enable them to capture him. If they were able to hit him in the head properly, that would work too.**

You've gone from Fain sent the Trollocs to kill Rand (completely ignoring that Fain wants to kill Rand with his own hands), to they were to test is strength, to harrying him, and now to capturing him.

What are they going to do, nothing? Nothing at all just be bait for no reason?

**His main source of aggravation with the Gray Men, and the Chosen, is that he wanted the joy of Randâ€™s death to be from him, not from them.**

He wanted Rand's death to be from his hand. Not just from him (that implies just from his actions). From Fain's hand alone.

**Thatâ€™s not what Iâ€™m saying at all â€“ Iâ€™m just saying that itâ€™s a strong possibility, and I think that Fain has more reason to try this, because his desperation is surely growing, and less reason not to (heâ€™s not concerned about defying the DOâ€™s orders.)**

Look:

1. You cannot say that Fain can for sure order 100 Myrddraal. You're comparing two vastly different situations and calling them the same.

2. You're ignoring that Fain wants to kill Rand by his own hand.

3. You're saying he's been doing this all in his spare time when not a single hint of it has been given before and not a thought given to the subject.

4. You're ignoring simple and total knowns about other candidates.

Tristin: 2005-11-07

Just a reminder, my theory isn't that Fain broke the Fades one at a time, rather he created the illusion of Sammael to send the Trollocks.

Also I wouldn't say that Fain is mad, he has those properties some of the time, but other times he is very lucid and rational. I think it is the Great Hunt that Moiraine makes this exact point that he slips between madness and rationality and other states of mind, but as the books progress he goes about his work fairly rationally despite obsession being his chief motivator.

JakOShadows: 2005-11-08

Tristin:

We do realize he has his lucid moments and not so lucid, but the one thing always seems to be fanatical about is killing Rand himself, so he will most likely never be lucid about that. Maybe about finding him and manipulating others to do so, but not about killing Rand, which is what the attack was, an attempt on Rand's life.

silverwolf: 2005-11-10

Tristin: Others raised the idea of Fain controlling the Myrdraal by breaking them; responses are not intended to be criticisms of the original theory. However, you still have not answered the following argument:only the Chosen can control shadowspawn; the recognition of the Chosen is not a physical recognition (i.e.: that man looks like a particular one of the Chosen so shadowspawn must obey him), but some sort of mark placed by the DO (i.e.: that person has been marked as a Chosen by the DO so shadowspawn must obey him); and any illusion created by Fain would not possess this mark. Until/unless that argument is successfully countered, Fain can be dismissed as the sender of the Trollocs. (Also, to be convincing that Fain is responsible, you would have to show that Fain didn't care about killing Rand with his own hands--something we know not to be true from the attempted assassination using the former whitecloaks in LoC, since Fain used them as a test w/o any actual intent for them to kill Rand.)

Tristin: 2005-11-12

silverwolf:

You said:

"However, you still have not answered the following argument:only the Chosen can control shadowspawn; the recognition of the Chosen is not a physical recognition (i.e.: that man looks like a particular one of the Chosen so shadowspawn must obey him), but some sort of mark placed by the DO (i.e.: that person has been marked as a Chosen by the DO so shadowspawn must obey him);"

1. Mordeth is connected to Mashadar

2. Mordeth lived long after he should have been dead.

3. He is able to create illusions and turn himself into a wisp of smoke that can pass through the cracks in walls just like Mashadar

4. The only way he could have survived so long and maintain powers of illusion and what not is if his essence was preserved in Mashadar.

5. Sammael dies via Mashadar

6. Like Mordeth, Sammael's essence and powers, form, etc., are maintained by Mashadar.

7. When Fain/Mordeth cast the Sammael illusion it is just as real as Mordeth was in TEOTW.

8. That illusion includes the Mark

The point is that we are not talking about holograms or something...but the actual essence of the person which has been trapped and preserved in some way by Mashadar (as we see with Mordeth)...but which Mordeth who both survived and escaped it...we also see that these essences can be controlled and manipulated.

"and any illusion created by Fain would not possess this mark."

says who. this isn't illusion like the Anath/Semirhage thing. This is something completely different and based upon the account of Mashadar and Mordeth as seen in those early chapters of TEOTW.

You also said:

"(Also, to be convincing that Fain is responsible, you would have to show that Fain didn't care about killing Rand with his own hands--something we know not to be true from the attempted assassination using the former whitecloaks in LoC, since Fain used them as a test w/o any actual intent for them to kill Rand.)"

Ok so how exactly do you want me to get inside the mind of Fain and find out what he is doing? Who is to say that the Trollocs were anymore of an attempt on Rand's life than the Whitecloaks in LOC? We haven't seen Fain onstage enough to know what his greater plan is, but as you should have realized by now when we don't see someone onstage we still see their effects and the fun part is figuring out why and when and how and who.

Callandor: 2005-11-12

**1. Mordeth is connected to Mashadar**

I don't know how many times I can tell you "No" and maintain politeness.

**4. The only way he could have survived so long and maintain powers of illusion and what not is if his essence was preserved in Mashadar.**

Then how come he wasn't destroyed when Mashadar was in the Cleasning? You're so emphatic about this link, but Jordan said FLAT OUT that Fain (hence Mordeth) was not effected by the events of the Cleasning.

Again, Mordeth was the cause of the evil in Shadar Logoth -- Mashadar is the manifestation of that evil.

**5. Sammael dies via Mashadar

6. Like Mordeth, Sammael's essence and powers, form, etc., are maintained by Mashadar.

7. When Fain/Mordeth cast the Sammael illusion it is just as real as Mordeth was in TEOTW.

8. That illusion includes the Mark**

1. Mashadar is gone. Destroyed. Not there anymore. Bye bye.

2. It's a stretch of all lengths to say that Mashadar is a holding of people's characteristics, abilities, let alone the person itself.

3. Again -- IF this were true, it would be Mashadar that had these abilities. Not Fain.

4. You're stretching it way past the limit to say that an Illusion contains the oaths, bonds, and cords from the Dark One that the Forsaken have.

**The point is that we are not talking about holograms or something...but the actual essence of the person which has been trapped and preserved in some way by Mashadar (as we see with Mordeth)...but which Mordeth who both survived and escaped it...we also see that these essences can be controlled and manipulated.**

So where is Liah? Where are all the Shadowspawn killed by Mashadar in the Trolloc Wars? Where are all the people from Aridhol?

**says who. this isn't illusion like the Anath/Semirhage thing. This is something completely different and based upon the account of Mashadar and Mordeth as seen in those early chapters of TEOTW.**

Says the Forsaken and RJ. It's a LINK to the Dark One that allows them to control Shadowspawn. Dead bodies no longer have it.

**Who is to say that the Trollocs were anymore of an attempt on Rand's life than the Whitecloaks in LOC?**

The difference is that 6 men is not 100,000+ Shadowspawn. That, and Fain explicitly said that they were a test.

That, and you're still ignoring that Fain wants to kill Rand with his own hands.

qwasar: 2005-11-19

What bothers me here is that so many people seem to arbitrarily assign the dead men seen in Far Madding as something Fain conjured? From what I recall, he was surprised by their arrival, and the event actually allowed Rand to cut Fain. I dont think Fain is quite so stupid as that as to waste time conjuring something that would disadvantage him. I dont buy at all that Fain conjured that illusion, unless of course, RJ said somewhere that he did. I have seen no such thing, so if it exists, forgive my ignorance. personally, I think it is far more likely to be the first of the illusions of dead people that show up more frequently in CoT and KoD.

DLG: 2005-11-27

I'm curious as to why you all exclude Arangar as the potential responsinble for sending the ~100 Myrdraal and 100k Trollocs to Rand and co.

Sure it is from his POV, I wish I had the book with me, but if my memory serves me well, Arangar clearly stated something along the lines of "Moridin would be terribly disappointed about Al'Thor staying alive" toward the end of the chapter.

Earlier, it was stated that Arangar was curious about who would act in the name of Sammael, but moreso in the lines of "Arangar wondered who was playing his own game" thus perhaps Arangar herself was posing as Sammael and would have send the Trolloc attack. Moreover, by saying that Arangar wondered who was playing his own game, RJ might mean that Arangar has also ordered multiple trollocs in the ways, whether they are the same that attacked Rand and co. or not.

Any comments on this? As I said, I wish I had the book on hand, but upon reading, I felt quite certain that Arangar was the culprit, though it was not clear if anyone else might be involved.

mako0424: 2005-11-29

DLG, i admire your innovativeness, for not discounting Aran'gar as having sent the Trollocs, but the fact it was from her POv, and clearly states in many terms, maybe Sammael is alive or maybe Demandred really did send the Trollocs but posed the questions as a ruse, these are beyond misleading but useless, because Aran'gar would be conversing, confusing and doubting herself for no reason, so out of all the Forsaken, Aran'gar is pretty the much the easiest to rule out.

i still think it was Sammael himself.

Anubis: 2005-11-29

Callandor, the argument for Fain is thus.

As early as The Great Hunt, Fain could control a single Fade well enough to make it obey his orders. As you might recall the Fade wanted to go north to the blight, Fain wanted to go West to Falme. They ended up zig zagging untill Fain finally won out. Two books later Fain captures a Myrdraal and subjugates it.

Now, by several accounts, Fains, I believe Robert Jordans, and obvious things in the books not worth mentioning, Fains powers have increased since book 4 quite substantially.

Fain also has a power reserved for the Dark One alone. Fain can tell, just by looking, if a person is a Darkfriend. He can see the mark on their forehead (mark of cain anyone?). This is something that ONLY the Dark One and possibly Myrdraal can do. It is a power that stems directly from the Dark.

Following that, it is not unreasonable to assume that Fain could potentially command several Fades. Hundreds might be a bit of a stretch, but maybe not, and besides... what HAS he been up to the past few books?

The best argument against ive seen is that Fain wants to kill Rand for himself. I think it is possible that he knew that the attack would fail, and that Rand would survive. I mean, Rand can travel. Even if a million Fades and a Billion Trollocs had been sent, he could have just... left.

Darkshadow: 2005-11-29

what i dont get is how come people seem to forget that in the trolloc wars... it was dreadlords who commanded the myrddrael and they commanded the trollocs????? even though i believe Taim is actually Moridin, a dreadlord could still command shadowspawn and as we know that Taim wanted to keep spies on Rand it wouldnt be a surprise if he did the same thing with Logain, just drop a crony with his men and when Logain meets up with Rand.. Taim knows where he is.

JakOShadows: 2005-11-29

Darkshadow:

The fact that Moridin says that someone posed as Sammuel and pointedly hints that its one of them means he knows it was another forsaken who commanded it. Sure, Taim could have concievably done it, but it would be far harder for him to make a command like that. And Moridin knows this, so that's why he can reliably make that inference. And I believe that it wouldn't quite be the angle that Taim would play, because he has a whole army of asha'man that combat Rand better than an army of trollocs. The forsaken have better access and are more likely to use trollocs.

ThunderWalker: 2005-11-30

I came up with the same thought as Darkshadow while reading this thread. The question is, do Dreadlords command Shadowspawn, and is that a level below Chosen/Forsaken. That is, how is the command broken down? The Chosen are the Generals. Are the Myrddraal above, or below the Dreadlords. Many theories suggest that Taim is a Chosen trained Dreadlord.

Regarding Fain:

***1. Mordeth is connected to Mashadar**

I don't know how many times I can tell you "No" and maintain politeness. * (Callandor)

Callandor, you mean "I disagree", not "No", correct?

There could be a connection. I don't actually believe Mordeth=Mashadar.

What we do know is that Mordeth's actions caused Mashadar, and he has lived (?) along side it for a very long time. You argue that Mordeth becomes smokelike because he is a "soul" -- of course, we don't see a lot of souls floating around Randland to compare this with. In a way, Mashadar is the "soul" or impression/ghost of all the people of Shadar Logoth. Mordeth is the ghost of himself, or is himself - not sure if he actually died, or was just transformed, or what. If Mordeth caused Mashadar, perhaps Mashadar captured, and preserved Mordeth?

What we do know about Fain:

1) The DO instilled more of himself into Fain than he realized. Can't remember if this is from RJ, or a POV.

2) Mordeth is preserved within Fain (merged, possessed, or whatever). A possible question is: does Mordeth's ghost exist independently from Mashadar. That is, if Mordeth did not have a host, would he have dissapeard with Mashadar at the cleansing.

3) Fain/Mordeth has been increasing in power.

I would say that it may be possible that ordering or compelling Myrddraal could be a manifestation of the DO within Fain (point 1) or from knowledge gained through the mutilating and controling of his Myrddraal.

Back to the first part -- Is Taim a dreadlord, and do dreadlords command Myrddraal?

Tristin: 2005-12-01

on that track it could imply that Taim actually is a forsaken. i don't agree with this, but its possible.

Callandor: 2005-12-01

** I'm curious as to why you all exclude Arangar as the potential responsinble for sending the ~100 Myrdraal and 100k Trollocs to Rand and co.

Sure it is from his POV, I wish I had the book with me, but if my memory serves me well, Arangar clearly stated something along the lines of "Moridin would be terribly disappointed about Al'Thor staying alive" toward the end of the chapter.**

Because Aran'gar would've said "Heh, good they're on the wrong track completely." or something. Instead, she wonders who sent the Trollocs.

**Now, by several accounts, Fains, I believe Robert Jordans, and obvious things in the books not worth mentioning, Fains powers have increased since book 4 quite substantially.**

You're going to have to define substantially.

**Following that, it is not unreasonable to assume that Fain could potentially command several Fades. Hundreds might be a bit of a stretch, but maybe not, and besides... what HAS he been up to the past few books?**

1. Yes, hundreds at one time is a HUGE stretch. A further stretch -- somehow having an illusion do it.

2. He's been following Rand at trying to kill him.

**I think it is possible that he knew that the attack would fail, and that Rand would survive.**

So, he gathered all these Trollocs to do... nothing?...

Someone sent 100,000 Trollocs to Rand directly. Whoever did this, wasn't in plan with the Shadow from what we know. This was obviously an attempt to kill him.

If it was for no point at all -- don't do it!

**what i dont get is how come people seem to forget that in the trolloc wars... it was dreadlords who commanded the myrddrael and they commanded the trollocs?????**

Not quite:

**even though i believe Taim is actually Moridin, a dreadlord could still command shadowspawn and as we know that Taim wanted to keep spies on Rand it wouldnt be a surprise if he did the same thing with Logain, just drop a crony with his men and when Logain meets up with Rand.. Taim knows where he is**

But, the attack took place a little bit after Logain met with Taim it seems. The Shadowspawn were ordered a long time before the attack due to their weakness of the gateways.

And, from what we know of Logain's encounter with Taim, Taim was rabid to know where Rand was -- so how could he order the Shadowspawn days if not weeks ago to attack Rand at a location he didn't know?

Callandor: 2005-12-01

**Callandor, you mean "I disagree", not "No", correct?

There could be a connection. I don't actually believe Mordeth=Mashadar.**

No, when I say "No" it's very simple: it means no.

I told you the only "connection" between Mordeth and Mashadar: Mordeth couldn't leave Shadar Logth; Mashadar cannot leave Shadar Logoth. That's it.

**You argue that Mordeth becomes smokelike because he is a "soul" -- of course, we don't see a lot of souls floating around Randland to compare this with.**

Look at the ghosts next time.

**In a way, Mashadar is the "soul" or impression/ghost of all the people of Shadar Logoth.**

No, it's not. Mashadar is the manifestation of the evil of Shadar Logoth.

**TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: 41 - A Crown of Swords

Stopping at the base of the,spire, a thick stone needle covered with flowing script, he peered ahead. Whoever had moved was gone; only fools or the madly brave went inside in Shadar Logoth at night. The evil that stained Shadar Logoth, the evil that had murdered Aridhol, had not died with Aridhol. Farther along the street, a tendril of silver-gray fog wavered out of a window, creeping toward another that came to meet it from a wide gap in a high stone wall. The depths of that gap shone as though a full moon lay inside. With the night, Mashadar roamed its city prison, a vast presence that could appear in a dozen places at once, a hundred. Mashadar's touch was not a pleasant way to die. Inside Rand, the taint on saidin beat harder; the distant fire in his side flickered like ten thousand lightnings, one on top of the last. Even the ground seemed to pound beneath his boots.**

**I would say that it may be possible that ordering or compelling Myrddraal could be a manifestation of the DO within Fain (point 1) or from knowledge gained through the mutilating and controling of his Myrddraal.**

Again, what makes a Forsaken able to control Shadowspawn is the oaths and bonds that they recieve from the Dark One. ONLY Forsaken have these. It's not anyone that gets these. You have to pledge your soul to the Dark One in Shayol Ghul for this.

sogoloth: 2006-01-27

It was Professor Plum, in the kitchen, with a candlestick!!!!!

OK all kidding aside, I can't accept that Fain was behind this. Any powers he has or doesn't have is, imho, irrelevant. The fact is that Fain has REPEATEDLY stated in his POV's that HE wants to kill Rand. And he kills anyone who tries. To go from such a staunch viewpoint to the other end of the spectrum and say 'ok, well I guess you Trollocs can have him, just tell him it's from me' is not plausible, and not congruent with ANY POV we've seen from Fain.

Personally I believe it was Demandred, mainly because it is well documented that Demandred HATES LTT, and 'his hatred for LTT has been transferred to Rand in full' (I know that isn't the exact quote, sry). Demandred also knows enough of Sammael to impersonate him. Also consider that in the prolouge of LoC, Demandred was tempted by the DO - 'Would you be Nae'Blis?'. Possible motivation for Demandred COULD be a hope that killing Rand could undermine the DO's confidence in Ishy, allowing Demandred to assume the title all the Forsaken covet. Just a thought (pure supposition on my part, admitedly) without the slightest bit of proof. Yet the logic works, I believe.

OK tear it up folkes...

JakOShadows: 2006-01-29

sogoloth:

Interesting line of thought, but it seems like the DO could see through that. And it also seems paradoxical to create distrust in Moridin by breaking the rules he set and the DO endorses. I kind of think that he would be punished for it, and Moridin would still be in power; even if Moridin was reprimended for it. But then the forsaken don't always do things the logical way either.

Darkelve: 2006-01-30

I have a strong suspicion as to why Machin Shin (MS) seems to 'work for' Fain. It's not that MS is working for Fain.

For some reason (because he is crazy beyond being 'consumable' for MS? Because he is touched by the DO he is protected somehow?).

However, my opinion is that when Fain met MS, at least one thing *was* consumed: Fain's obsession to find Rand. It sort of 'rubbed off' you might say. That is why it is always there when Rand is at a gateway: it instinctively knows where to find him. Fain *could* have others make use the gateways, by knowing where Rand is.

Of course, the catch is, should Rand travel elsewhere, the wind might change course and tear up his small army.

Interesting idea, is it not?

Canan Urgas: 2006-03-15

i think that fain encountered mashadar and defeated it, and doing so meant that he gained its powers. Now, even though mashadar killed sammael (there is no doubt. Robert Jordan said it himself) fain is part of mashadar as surely as it is part of him, and so he could then use illusions, like he did in book 9 when he made dead ashaman appear in front of rand and lan. now, if he can make illusions of ashaman, why not of sammael? sammael is dead, but fain, i think, is using illusions to impersonate him. i certainly hope this is true because i think padan fain is a really good character and to see him gain more power and influence-ESPECIALLY because he is on nobodys side-adds more interest to the story.

Khazhul: 2006-03-16

Has it been explicitly stated that Fain created the illusion of the Asha'man? I have always taken it as one of the earlier examples of the ghosts that are now appearing everywhere.

Callandor: 2006-03-18

**Has it been explicitly stated that Fain created the illusion of the Asha'man? I have always taken it as one of the earlier examples of the ghosts that are now appearing everywhere.**

The two renegades were both killed by Fain, Fain was fighting Rand at the time, he summoned two illusions of the renegades, the pain in Rand's side from Fain's wound got extremely worse at this time, Rand slashed at the illusions, the disappeared, and Fain was then shown as injured (when Rand did nothing other than strike the illusions).

Yeah, they were Fain's. Completely Fain's.

**i think that fain encountered mashadar and defeated it, and doing so meant that he gained its powers.**

Fain told Moiraine what happened when he met Machin Shin:

**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 47 - More Tales of the Wheel

"He escaped, and he did not," Moiraine said. "The Black Wind caught him-and he claimed to understand the voices. Some greeted him as like to them; others feared him. No sooner did the Wind envelop Fain than it fled."**

Fain didn't "defeat it." Machin Shin was still around in The Great Hunt and The Shadow Rising, and as far as we know is still around.

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ain, Sammael and the Trollocks

by Tristin: 2005-10-21 | 4.53 out of 10 (17 votes)

Recent Categories: The Trolloc Attack

Comments

Tamyrlin: 2005-10-21

lazy sedai: 2005-10-21

Madoc Comadrin: 2005-10-21

Anubis: 2005-10-22

CyberFade: 2005-10-22

mako0424: 2005-10-23

Callandor: 2005-10-23

Tamyrlin: 2005-10-23

Callandor: 2005-10-23

Mort: 2005-10-24

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a dragonburned fool: 2005-10-26

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Tristin: 2005-10-27

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Callandor: 2005-10-30

terez: 2005-10-31

Callandor: 2005-10-31

JakOShadows: 2005-11-02

terez: 2005-11-05

Franco13: 2005-11-05

JakOShadows: 2005-11-06

silverwolf: 2005-11-06

Callandor: 2005-11-06

Tristin: 2005-11-07

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Tristin: 2005-11-12

Callandor: 2005-11-12

qwasar: 2005-11-19

DLG: 2005-11-27

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Anubis: 2005-11-29

Darkshadow: 2005-11-29

JakOShadows: 2005-11-29

ThunderWalker: 2005-11-30

Tristin: 2005-12-01

Callandor: 2005-12-01

Callandor: 2005-12-01

sogoloth: 2006-01-27

JakOShadows: 2006-01-29

Darkelve: 2006-01-30

Canan Urgas: 2006-03-15

Khazhul: 2006-03-16

Callandor: 2006-03-18