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2012-04-30: I had the great pleasure of speaking with Harriet McDougal Rigney about her life. She's an amazing talent and person and it will take you less than an hour to agree.
2012-04-24: Some thoughts I had during JordanCon4 and the upcoming conclusion of "The Wheel of Time."
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Last ten comments at Theoryland.
The Bore is in Tel’aran’rhiodIf DO was able to alter reality with power...by Amaentes
Callandor's PurposeJust wanted to comment on something in reg...by Joram
Mat's luck is caused by the daggerSorry to necro this thread, but I was just...by Joram
The Real SlayerI was just thinking that since the Finns l...by jimbop79
Verin Compelled AlannaThis was alluded to early on, but let me s...by jimbop79
When the Dark One winsAlthough the books are over here is what m...by pjrobertson
Moghedien Raises the DeadThis has a lot of spoilers, so please, if ...by NaeblisSunshine
Mat & the Horn of ValereWow, found a link to this while purging my...by shaihalud
Breaking the SealsNow see, Rand isn't the only one who wants...by MMustafa
Nakomi's Soul Is BrownIn the epilogue as rand is carrying Moridins ...by Waxer
Last ten theories at Theoryland.
Padan Fain, Roommates With the Dark Oneby aNewAge
The Real Slayerby Cabadrin
How the Bore Will Be Sealedby Tremalking
The Bore is in Tel’aran’rhiodby Great Lord of the Dark
Callandor's Purposeby RealAshaman
Rand and the True Powerby Zombie Sammael
Caemlyn's Battleby 1eyedfool
Moghedien Raises the Deadby Truthless
Breaking the Sealsby Kamaul
Let me die forever!by Kamaul
I do like the idea that Mat's connection to Shadar Logoth in some fashion attracted properties from the Dark One. I tend to believe that something natural about Mat was accentuated, but you bring up some interesting possibilities. At another theory, we have been discussing Mat's luck as a function of being Ta'veren. How would you address his being a Ta'veren, according to your theory?
I dont think Fain is particularily relevant to your theory... Fain is a very special case and Mat had the dagger before Fain fused with Marshdar. Though the idea that Mat might have somehow aquired a hint of the Dark Ones pattern warping abilities is interesting to say the very least. A few things I would like to contribute.
1. Have we seen food spoil around Mat? I cant think of any of that... something to consider.
2. Could this explain... I dont want to say his luck or the dice... but possibly the ammount of controll he exerts over his ta'verenness? Unlike Rand and Perrin he tends to make full knowledgable use of his Ta'verenness.
3. Could this explain the dice? Could the dice be a symptom of Mat unknowingly altering the pattern to counteract the dark ones direct influences?
It is an interesting thought. It is entirely possible that it happened this way, but it seems a fairly complex thing. In all the situations we see Mat extremely lucky, we see that what ever he is doing relies on randomness and a need to succeed. So he is making full use of his ta'veren-ness. And it could be argued that since he puts himself it situations like this more often, he can better sense it than Perrin or Rand, who meticulously plan something so it works out without relying on luck. But I do believe that the dagger from SL affected him somehow and this could be it. Since they are polar opposites, it is logical to follow. And RJ's statement does help your case. I do not think it is just this though, I think it is an extra boost added onto what he already had.
I think I agree with Tam in that I like your idea of Mat's SL connection drawing some of the DO's Pattern-warping ability to him. However, most of that connection you've drawn hinges very neatly on that first Jordan quote--something that I'm not sure does what you want it to. The problem I have is the phrase, "in a way." Your idea certainly is one way that Mat could actually have attracted to himself "the DO's own luck," however, why did Mat have to be the one to attract it? I suppose what I'm saying is this: why couldn't the people of Aridhol have (through whatever means) stolen/borrowed/replicated this Pattern-warping ability (far more than just luck) of the DO and then it was simply passed to Mat through the dagger? When it came into play with Mat's own ta'verenness, and the two complimented each other, couldn't it have created Mat's own exteme luck? Heck, couldn't the dice-rattling be those two functions--ta'veren luck and SL Pattern-warping--resonating off of one another?
The big problem is that aside from Moiraine's discussion of how Aridhol fell to its own SL-shadow (ie. using the Shadow's own tactics), we don't know much about how such a thing was created, and we don't know what means its people and Mordeth used to stand against the Shadow. Did they use the Power at all in their pursuits? My guess would be yes, since they would do ANYTHING necessary to defeat the Shadow. We've already seen that there are ways that the Power can be used to warp the Pattern in a localized fashion (ie. the dice ter'angreal). Could it be that the reason the taint of Shadar Logoth was so bound to its locale and the objects within it was due to some localized emulation/theft of the DO's Pattern-warping, engineered by Mordeth and some channelers he managed to convince? What effect might such a warping have had on the populace? Perhaps the suspicion and hatred that is described by Moiraine? The fact is, there's just too much about it that we don't know. I agree that there's something there--some interplay between the DO's powers and what Mordeth made of Aridhol--but I'm not sure that Mat was the one doing the stealing (for once!).
As to Padan Fain, I think I agree with you that at this point he's something of a byproduct of the DO's influence (a la Machin Shin), but not of the DO's express will (aside from his continued draw to Rand). My explanation for his "wildcard" status is, in short, this:
The way in which his soul had been warped by the DO during his days as a "hound" so strongly conflicted with the way in which what remained of Mordeth had been warped in Aridhol, that when they were joined in the same body, the resulting resonance of Pattern-warping disloged Fain from the Pattern entirely. It is, of course, also why he is hopelessly insane. He is essentially a free agent, a loose thread, no longer being woven by the Wheel, who instead moves through world at his own direction. I believe he has the ability to create localized and limited Pattern-warpings of his own via the taint/power of Aridhol--like a miniature Dark One, cruising the world in pursuit of Rand. He needs Rand dead at whatever cost because Rand is the one thing that still compells him, a remnant left over from Fain the hound. Aside from that, he is completely free of destiny, completely free from fate, and is powerful enough to walk the Pattern without being bound by it--in essence, a tiny god.
I'm Not so sure about this theory. I was kind of thinking that ta'veren IS responsible for Mat's luck, and the Shadar Logoth dagger was a bit like a puberty thing, allowing his ta'veren ability to take new form. Maybe the Shadar Logoth dagger is like a magnifying glass of what the Pattern brought this person in the world to do. We all know that evil wants its minions to be good at what they do, so why wouldn't the taint on Shadar Logoth do this for them?
i dont have much evidence for what im aboutt to say, but it makes sense in my head, so hear it goes: the dice rattling is the result of the shadar taint and mat's ta'veren abilities conflicting. My theory is that both of these abilities attempt to altar the pattern in small ways, but in opposite directions (ta'veren in the favour of the light, the taint in the f avour of the dark.) therefore, when both happen at the same time, mat hears the dice and the outcome can be either light or dark. it's possible that these moments of dice are the only moments where mat ISN'T being used as a ta'veren or shadar taint conduit, as they are both to busy battiling each other.
Certainly the timing of Mat's luck is coincidental to Shadar Logoth, but we also have to remember that Mat, Rand and Perrin became Ta'veren sometime around that stage too - as Loial recognises them as Ta'veren by the time they get to Caemlyn.
A point on the DO effecting the pattern though. The pattern is made from threads of lives, not the world itself. The DO has been directly effecting the physical world, but I don't know that he's effecting threads directly...maybe the ghosts.
I like the idea of a SL resonance in the dagger attracting a DO resonance, but in order for that to work, the comparisons to Mordeth must also work.
Mordeth was the Essence of SL evil...he started it...he survived it...he thrived on it. Much more so than Mat. He eventual merged with Fain, and then all these powers started coming out. Not just one power, but multiple types of powers. Mat only displays one type of 'power'.
Of course, Fain already had some 'powers' before SL, and Mordeth may have had some of these powers already - no one can really say for sure.
A point you raised about the DO remaking the pattern and Ta'veren...I don't think that the DO's desire to remake the pattern in his own image could in any way be compared to Ta'veren. That's like comparing the strongest Category 5 Hurricane ever to a rain droplet.
It may simply be that, as you say, Mat already being lucky, having picked up the dagger, attracted the DO's equivalent, and that was unleashed when he was healed...but how would that explain the difference between extreme luck at Tar Valon and just plain very lucky everywhere else ?
Personally I think that the main reason behind Mat's luck isn't having the dagger but his being healed of carrying it. It was only after the healing that he began to be especially lucky (he wasn't really between Shadar Logoth and Tar Valon) and to speak in the Old Tounge (except for 'Carai an Caldazar', which he said before Shadar Logoth).
In conclusion, I think the huge amount of the Power used to heal him knocked something loose from his prevous lives.
On a totally separate matter I want to know if (in Crown of Swords) the strange mist in the Cairhien hills when Rand met the rebels (Caraline Damodred, Darlin, Toram Riatin, as well as Padan Fain) is another 'bubble of evil' or if it could possibly be a manifestation of Mashadar the mist-creature from Shadar Logoth (it seems to appear minutes after Toram Riatin can't find where Padan Fain has run off to)
Interesting theory, but I think you may be over analysing a bit. As you pointed out Mat was always lucky. This is a natural ability of his, just like Rand's ability to channel and Perrins Wolfbrother thing.
Ta'veren are all lucky but it is both bad and good. The most extreme example of this is Rand's journey to Tear, with weddings and deaths and all sorts of strange effects. Falling out of a window and not having a scratch is good luck, a roof tile falling on your head is bad luck but they are both luck. If you combine Mats innate good luck with his Ta'veren ability to twist the pattern you will have a pretty good description of what happens Mat. I think most of it can be explained as luck just being Mats thing. Perhaps it was aplified to some extent by the SL taint and the Tar Valon healing but it would always have been there and would have manifested itself.
When you think about it Mat really isn't all that lucky in some respects. He tends to find trouble even when he is trying to avoid it, it is just that his innate good luck pulls him through more often than not.
Quite a pity I dissapeared for long time exactly when this theory of mine was published. I really wanted to speak and reply about, and now my replies would be ... late. :( But better late than never.
to Tam:
Mat being ta'veren would explain without problems all the effects of Mat's luck. Even the dependance of the beginning of Mat's luck to his dagger-related experience could be just coincidence. The only reason for this theory is the RJ's answer quoted by me in the beginning of the theory, an answer that cannot be interpreted as just ta'veren effect. So the Shadow must be involved, and having in mind the importance of the dagger, Shadar Logoth is the best candidate to explain the Shadow's involvement. So I came to my theory.
However I don't dismiss the ta'veren as explanation of Mat's luck. Ta'veren is too likely to have the effects we see around Mat independently of any other concurrent factors also affecting his luck. In Mat's case, as I think, the dark luck and ta'veren luck work together in the same direction and either produce similar effects, or produce the luck effects with combined force of both factors. Mat's has, so to say, dual backing for his luck. JakOShadows' said something similar in his reply. It was originaly also part of my theory and maybe it was not expressed well. Both factors would differ in some details from each other, and that could have multiple consequences, but about the detailed interaction between both luck and determening what exactly comes from the ta'veren and what from the dark luck, I have not the sufficient evidence and it could be only speculation. Both lucks are different in their principle, but they are similar in their conduct, and this similarity is behind the resonance that brought the dark luck in Mat's possession.
As I said int he theory, I think that Mat being ta'veren is the reason that he gained exactly the dark luck among all other possible dark abilities that the dagger-induced resonance could produce. Resonances occurs between similar poles, and Mat's resonance was shaped by what was already there in Mat. This explains why Mordeth doesn'treveal luck like Mat's while he has other supernatural abilities. Mordeth's abilities are IMO due to resonance with special abilities that Mordeth uniquely had before his resonance.
This leads me also to answers of Anubis' questions:
My theory is explaining the differences of the effects between Mat and Fain with differences of how the resonance of both Evils happened. In each case, so I state, the resonance is dependent of the initial special abilities of the human part, that invokes specifically it's Shadowy equivalent.
Fain is relevant to my theory because of Mordeth's presence. Mordeth already had his resonance with the Shadow and gained special abilities before he met Mat and Fain. And it is interesting that Fain-Mordeth re-gained most of his abilities after he stole the dagger from Fal Dara.
About Mat's more control over the ta'verenness - yes this is one of the implications of my theory. In a way. Additional luck-factor will give Mat a ... say it .. an independent referenve point to deal with the ta'veren engine, the point that Archimedes needed for to turn over the earth. However there is also the other side - both lucks could interfere between each other in unpredictable manner and this will make any control more difficult. But, regarding your point #3, yes, a statement of my theory is that Mat unwittingly is countering DO's influence over the Pattern-weaving. And the unpredictable interferences between both luck in Mat would be very helpful for this countering of DO's influence.
to Kuma:
You're right, that my theory hings solely on RJ's quote, and that the "in a way" phrase adds an element of uncertainty in it. My interpretation can fit into the "in a way", but who knows what else also could eventually fit in it. But I have answer to the question why exactly Mat and not any Arhidol citizen attracted the dark luck. It's because Mat was already ta'veren, and no Arhidol citizen was. If a "resonance" happens it happens between equivalents from both side - it's in the nature of "resonance". Mat had ta'veren inside and it resonanced with luck-related part of DO's abilities. Mordeth had other special abilities and it resonanced with other part of DO's nature and Mordeth gained different set of dark gifts.
It's really a problem that we don't know enough about how Aridhol Evil was created. But we know that Mordeth himself was never a channeler, that whatever it is, it was a human deed, and already in the end of Aridhol Mordeth had at least since some moment supernatural abilities - one of them his undeed state and his ability to steal the body of somebody passing Shadar Logoth (something similar to DO's abilities to transmigrate souls, and not similar to anything from the Pattern's own arsenal). Also when Fain becomes to torture Myrddraals and have other destructive abilities, it seems that he thinks about them as about old skills, i.e. as skills that Aridhol-time Mordeth already had.
Your idea that the SL-Evil amy be result of something Arhidol's cahnnelers did under Mordeth's guidance, is very interesting. But, as you said, we know nothing about that, and that are rsther speculations. However I think, that whatever was the means Mordeth and Aridhol achieved the resonance with the DO, this resonance happened. It is possible that the resonance happened after Mordeth gained the special abilities, but in any case the resonance at least seriously influenced and shaped these abilities. Whatever was responsible for the resonance, mordeth gained something from it. This is less than what my theory states - it states that the supernatural abilities are first gained through the resonance.
to Lews Therin Tell-on-em:
It could be that SL is a "magnifying glas" only, but in this case I wanted to know why Mat's luck would be called "DO's own luck in a way". It is not impossible that such interpretation exist, but I cannot see it.
to Cirrus:
yes, your hypothesis is one of the possible implications I also drove from my theory. I'm glad you drove it. But unfortunately it's only a speculation.
to Snakes-and-foxes:
DO can effect the Pattern both in sence effecting the physical world and effecting sentient lives. The first thing DO made after the Bore was drilled was to corrupt people's minds inducing in them various perverse passions - it was a mass worldwide effects. And the Pattern is not only the sentient lives threads but also the whole physical world. Pattern's dissipation means the whole physical reality becoming less real, and the Blight e.g. is the Pattern at this location altered so that it e.g. isn't reflected in TAR and the land returns to health after the Blight turns back. So the Blight is a bright example of direct Pattern-bound mass direct Shadow's effect on the whole physical reality.
My theory works with the Mordeth case. All Mordeth's special abilities have no good equivalents in the normal natural world, but have equivalents in the Shadow - the immortality and transmigration and posessing other-ones bodies, and Myrddraal control and the abilities to do awfull things to people with simple touch, etc.
"Powers" Fain had before SL are discernible form 'powers' he has after. Sensing Rand is something from before. But torturing Myrddraals and other people is definitely only after Shadar Logoth, before SL Myrddraals did to Fain anything they wanted and he suffered a lot from them, and Fain hadn't anything special in affecting people.
And the extreme luck at Tar Valon in comparison to lesser luck after it... isn't it right that when a dam breaks, in the first moment the water flows stronger than afterwards when the dam remains broken. The first moment after the breaking of the dam... that was what ahppened after Mat's Healing in Tar Valon.
to Avatar:
No, Mat had unusual luck between Shadar Logoth and the Healing. His own thoughts after being Healed reveal it, as I quoted it above. Mat sees specifical difference between his luck before and after SL. After the Healing it is significantly boosted, but the luck was special also before the Healing. Plus if it was effect of the OP used in Mat's Healing, then why Jordan would say that his luck is "DO's own luck in a way"?
"2. Could this explain... I dont want to say his luck or the dice... but possibly the ammount of controll he exerts over his ta'verenness? Unlike Rand and Perrin he tends to make full knowledgable use of his Ta'verenness."
I wouldn't think that this theory would affect his knowingness of how to manipulate Ta'veren, I just think that he copes with it in a different way:
Perrin tries to avoid the fact that he is Ta'veren and seems to think that it doesn't really affect him;
Rand understands the effects of being Ta'veren, but he also sees that the effects are random, so sometimes they will happen, sometimes they won't make a difference- so he doesn't rely on them;
mat is a gambler, and he sees that for him the gains outweigh the risks, so I see this as just part of his nature- to take advantage of everything he is given, not a s some side effect of... Mat having been influenced by the DO, Fain, Shadar Logoth,...or whatever.
Perhaps you have looked a little deep into this, although it was thought-sparking to read.
**Perrin tries to avoid the fact that he is Ta'veren and seems to think that it doesn't really affect him;**
Perrin doesn't avoid it; he's resigned to it. He was actually one of the first (I'd say first, but it was around the same time Rand did, too).
His attitude about it is kinda similar to Mat's: "I've never seen it work out for me, for once." While others tell him they've seen it, he'd deny it and such.
**Rand understands the effects of being Ta'veren, but he also sees that the effects are random, so sometimes they will happen, sometimes they won't make a difference- so he doesn't rely on them**
He has before, notably in A Crown of Swords.
I like this idea, and believe it has merrit. While I'm not convinced that the scenario portrayed here is exactly the explanation, I definitly agree that Mat's luck goes way beyond his natural Ta'veren abilities.
For one, Rand and Perrin don't have luck like Mat's. If it was simply Ta'veren then Rand should have the best luck on the planet, since he is the strongest Ta'veren in the world. Also, I believe that RJ's quote clearly indicates there is something more to Mat's luck than simply being Ta'veren.
An alternate explanation would be that SL and it's taint are a 'mini me' version of the DO's evil. Similar to Sauruman contriving to overthrow Sauron in LOTR. Saruman was a 'mini me' version of Sauron. His powers were very similar, especially since Saruman spent many long years studying the techniques and tactics of Sauron. Saruman once used these techniques to defeat Sauron (who at that time in the Hobbit was calling himself the Necromancer). Of course Saruman was working FOR Sauron, but he still hated him, and envied his power. Later on in the story, Saruman began to transform his realm into a 'mini me' version of Mordor. He decimates the forests, employs Orcs, and even tries to make his own rings. His own ambitions and greed for power corrupted him, and he fell from grace into squallor.
This compares in many ways to the SL scenario. The denizens of SL studied and copied the Shadow's methods at the bidding of Mordeth. Aridhol thus became more and more like the Shadow, even while opposing it. While in the beginning their intentions were good (as were Saruman's) they eventually fell prey to the evil they created and it cost them their lives and nation. It may be that the SL evil, being a 'mini me' version of the Shadow, would obtain capabilities or 'powers' similar to the Shadow. This 'mini me' version of the Shadow certainly spawned a number of supernatural scenario's. Mordeth's powers and Mashadar for example. Consider this:
1. When Mat stole the dagger, he tied himself to this 'mini me' evil. He may have drawn supernatural powers from it. But Mat's exposure to this evil was very limited, and was eventually removed.
2. Mordeth was the origiator of the SL evil, and it seems likely that he himself had supernatural powers, possibly even before his physical death.
I speculate that Mat, given enough time with the Dagger, would have developed powers similar (though probably weaker) to Fain's. I would venture a guess that if the 'mini me' version of the Shadow (SL) emulated the Shadow's powers, the 'Dark One's onw luck' could very well have been one of those powers. Furthermore, I believe that Mat's Ta'veren abilities further tweaked this power into the luck-generating machine that is Mat (don't ask me to dice against the guy).
OK, tear it up folkes...
wow...euridite...well thought out ... only one misspelled word (check merit)...what's it doing here;)?
I do see your point that Mat seems to have more luck than all the others, but the point could be made that the pattern gave him that luck because he needed. For example, the luck at dicing, could be means for him to get the money he needs to support his army. And his luck in battle could be because he needs to win those battles to perform his task. And in all the stuff he has done, he has made use of the natural luck a ta'veren has much more than the other two. Of course, your theory coincides with the time too, but we have no evidence for or against this. I don't think Fain is very lucky, he's been elusive and been able to infect all these different organizations, but that is due to Mordeth traits. We haven't seen him in any relationship to luck. Both are possible, I just think that the ta'veren theory is more plausible.
**I do see your point that Mat seems to have more luck than all the others, but the point could be made that the pattern gave him that luck because he needed.**
I would completely disagree. Rand by default has the "most luck" since he's the strongest ta'veren. Mat has the most visible luck to many readers, simply because they don't attribute many of the things that happen to Rand to be his luck. Look at how Rand deals with the Sea Folk, the rebels, and gets key knowledge about how to Cleanse saidin all in one day in A Crown of Swords. That's not luck? That's not incredible luck? That's not ta'vereness?
**And in all the stuff he has done, he has made use of the natural luck a ta'veren has much more than the other two.**
Again, I'd say Rand has, but all three have to a great amount.