bout Alivia helping Rand die.
by Tyr: 2003-05-27 | 5.5 out of 10 (8 votes)
Ok, this is my first theory, and I don't know if this has been suggested before. Well, here I go.
The wheel of time is constantly turning, constantly bring new dragons along. I am suggesting that perhaps the Dark One is embedded in the Pattern in such a way the he is not recreated such as dragons but constantly spinning with the wheel. He may die, but when the wheel turns he is not recreated but re-embedded. This meaning he has a certain reliance on the turning of The Wheel. The Dark One loses some battles, wins some, but is always embedded just the same. Maybe Rand sees something along these lines.
Perhaps after the last battle, perhaps before, but none the less sees it. Or thinks it.
I am suggesting that Rand will try to stop the turning, not destroy it, but stop it. Would this, theoretically, stop the weaving of The Patern, thereby detaching everyone from there already lived, pre-written destinies. After doing this, it would prevent the re-embedding of the Dark One into the Pattern. After the pattern weaving has stopped, in theory, woulnd't the re-embedding of the DO stop too?
So after all this though Rand proclaims this. People are surely going to believe him mad. So mad that he might even hurt people. Maybe Elayne or Min, or Aviendha try to stop him. Maybe they think hes mad. Maybe they think hes sick, whatever, but in a position to hurt himself. Or maybe they think he's in pain. In order to prevent him pain and suffering, or the pain and suffering of others, they realize, as hard as it is, that he must die. They do not think the Asha'man are capable, nor willing, so who better then...Alivia, the really strong Saidar weilder. Pretty far fetched, I know. It just seemed a posibility to me. Probably not the good, either but, o'well.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2003-05-31
First of all, it is not fun if you don't even believe in your theory. ;) Second, we are told that ta'veren, no matter how strong, can make variations occur in the Pattern, but that the Pattern moves them where it wants them to go. And the Wheel turns, and the Age of Lace is created from all Patterns...in other words, Rand is not that strong. He couldn't stop the Pattern. To the last part of your theory, Alivia killing Rand...that seems pretty specific, but Min says that she will help him die. Those seem like opposing ideas. Just some thoughts.
2
Callandor: 2003-05-31
BWB states that the DO and the Creator exist outside the wheel of time, hence outside the Pattern, not embedded in it.
3
Tyr: 2003-06-01
OK, but the point is what if Rand THINKS it, Ba'alzamon spoke of killing the great serpent, perhaps its possible, even if its not, its irrelivent, rand will TRY, maybe hurting himself beyond repair (maybe the great serpent will bite him ;->), and in Alivias killing him, she is helping him. Maybe he's already dying, why should they allow him to suffer. People do this all the time, when people are in comas, relying on a machine to live. People pull the plugs somethimes. either the pain is unbearable, or there is no hope.
4
spearmaiden: 2003-06-26
I'd like to point out that most of the songs/poems/historical references/whatever at the beginning and ending of each book, which refer to the events going on in that book, are from the 4th age - the age AFTER the current age in Randland. Therefore, the WoT does not stop turning.
5
Particleman: 2003-08-05
Maybe this is too far off the track and deserves it's own theory, still re-reading the series again looking for clues. Putting it here for now because of tyr mentioning stopping the wheel.
In one of his interviews (I forget which) RJ said something to the effect that he believed on of the greatest ideas the ancient Greeks gave us was the idea that time was linear and not circular, that you could change your destiny.
Still developing this thought but maybe a clue as to the ending. I think Tyr's on the right track but not in the right way or something like that.
6
Particleman: 2003-08-05
Found the quote....it was from a CNN chat.
"Chat moderator: How did you develop the idea for the Wheel of Time saga, and where did you get the name?"
"Robert Jordan: The name comes out of Hindu mythology, where there is a belief that time is a wheel. Many older cultures believe that time is cyclic, that it repeats. In fact, I believe the best thing the ancient Greeks gave us was (the idea) that time was linear and change was possible."
Maybe nothing
Maybe something
7
Rhodric: 2003-08-05
i thought this for a while (RJ would make Rand end the "turning" of the wheel). but it would make the first paragraph of the 1st chapter of every book sound really stupid/pointless. all the wheel keeps turning stuff.
also on a online chat thingy somewhere, somebody asked what the last word of the WOT series would be, and RJ said "turns" or "wheel" or some such.
nah RJ won't kill his own creation.
8
terez: 2004-11-29
In considering the possibilities of this concept, here are a few questions to ask:
What ideas might Rand have been turned on to in further conversations with Harid Fel? Why was Fel dangerous enough to be killed by a Gholam? Remember that Rand and Fel's conversations usually had to do with the nature of the pattern, the Bore, the seals, rebirth and the Wheel, etc...
How is it that Ish/Mor can step outside the pattern, and what can he do there?
Why did Ba'alzamon state that killing the Great Serpent, breaking the Wheel, would make him "more powerful than you could imagine"? Is it because he is a prisoner to it moreso than most? His memories stretch back far, it seems, and his interaction with the world as the Dark One's agent is apparently relatively frequent.
9
pacafinn: 2004-12-28
I find myself caught on this one too. On the one hand, I think RJ is setting things up so that Rand and friends actually succeed in changing the pattern. Somehow make time linear rather than cyclic. If so and if Alivia helps him do it, then she has helped him to die, because now for the first time the Dragon will not be reborn. This is his final death. Or even more directly, she may somehow kill off LTT or the mysterious 3rd face. This goes with the CNN Greek world view statement, the seeming importance of Fel, since RJ continues to have Min read him even in COT, etc. However, this does fly in the face of the obvious fact that the 4th age is coming. This then begs the question, however, what the cycle is. If the cycle is a linear age 1, 2, 3, and 4, followed by a turn to age 1, then we can write in age 4 without it being a cycle. In a linear world view, age 4 starts at the end of these books, one assumes, and then continues until infinity or the End. The difference of course is that there is now no return to Age 1. That part of the cycle is no more. PacaFinn
10
Flinnd: 2004-12-30
Random Thought:
This age seems to be different in certain aspects than previous turnings of the same age. Reason being... the Dark One seems to have an incling that breaking free this go around will be more devastating and more permanent than previous times. As the ages have come and gone and come again, we hear of a plethora of encounters between Rand and Ishy and the Dark One... we gather some of this from the Heros who say they've fought both for and against the Dragon in previous ages.
You have to ask youself, then, why does this age seem to think (at least from the DO and the Forsaken's perspective) that victory (mainly, turning Rand to the DO) will be more complete than previously? I'm still formulating this in my mind, but going off of the destruction of the wheel that was mentioned... what if this age marks the end of ages... THE Last Battle... the breaking of the cyclical nature of the wheel... the discovery (like the that of the Greeks) that destiny is mutable and moldable, instead of set and predetermined.
If this were the case, and Rand was the catalyst, it could explain the DO's orders throughout the series. For example... if Rand has the ability to "break the wheel" somehow, and sealed away the Dark One, there would be no turnings of the wheel to bring the DO back... so absolute defeat is a possibility this time. If Rand is turned to the Dark, though, and does the same thing with the DO being free... then there are no turnings of the wheel to put the DO back in prison and absolute victory can be achieved. SO, when the DO felt that turning Rand had become a near impossibility (probably around the time of the cleansing), he changed plans and decided to kill Rand. Killing Rand would keep the wheel stopping events from taking place so that time could be respun and he (the DO) could try again at turning Rand.
If this were the case... perhaps the last battle has the POTENTIAL to be the last battle. In other words, if Rand (the Dragon) kicks the pattern out of it's cyclical feedback loop... it truly ends up being the LAST battle.
Just some extended random thoughts that my mind wandered on as I read through this theory.
11
heridfel: 2007-09-03
This age is no different, the dark one has never broken free, if it ever succeeds in breaking free it can remake reality and supplant the wheel as the controller of reality. The only thing that could stop it in this case would be the creator returning and I believe it's been stated that the creator makes infinite realities and gives them the ability to self maintain, but then leaves them to their own devices and presumably would care less if they were destroyed. So if we assume that it IS possible for the DO to break free and I believe this is a safe assumtion, then it is just a matter of time until the Wheel reality is destroyed or taken over by the DO. So in fact RL is doomed but since we know the next 4th age happens it won't be this turn of the wheel that it is destroyed.
