1
Tamyrlin: 2003-02-18
Well, the ter'angreal would explain why Cadsuane was so good at finding them. It is also possible that other reds have ter'angreal, especially if you consider what their mission has been since the White Tower. The first reds probably were aware of ter'angreal that worked that way and passed them down the line to other reds. Beyond that, there isn't any other way than simple detective work. I don't believe they have any other manner of finding men that can channel. It does make you wonder how many ter'angreal are out there that function in that manner.
2
Mairashda: 2003-02-18
In CoT it is repeatedly stated that some of the Rebel Aes Sedai are able to detect residues of weaves of Saidin. This is probably some minor Talent, which is must be shared by at least some Red sisters.
Oh...and in CoS Moghedien (when she explains herself to the Dark One) hints at the possibility of a Weave that allows a woman to detect a man channeling.
3
Callandor: 2003-02-18
Just FYI, but the weave was totally false that Moggy gave to Egwene, Elayne and Avi.
4
Jearom: 2003-02-19
If the Red Ajah does have access to a stock of Saidin detectors then why - in New Spring - was the black ajah killing any man whom they suspected may channel? This turned out to be any man who was renowned as lucky.
Surely it would have saved them much time and effort to get hold of some of these Ter'angreal - there are several black sisters in the RED.
I don't doubt that such Ter'angreal exist as we know that Cadsuane has one at least but I think that they are extremely rare.
5
Mairashda: 2003-02-19
yes... the weave Moghedien showed them did not work- but the fact alone that she claimed to know one makes it quite possible that there are weaves that CAN do this. oh ...and: the black sisters in New Spring weren't after the Dragon Reborn...oh well.
6
emw2455: 2003-02-19
I think that when rumors or eyewitness accounts reach an Aes Sadai that a man might be a channeler they investigate. If there's a possibility that the rumor is true then they act accordingly, either call in help (in most cases Reds but not necessarily remember logain is held by Aes Sedai from several Ajahs). I don't get the feeling that it's only Reds who investigate. Reds, however, are the only ones who do it full time. I also don't feel that they have any ter'angreal that sense the ability in men. Remember, Elyas tell Perrin that the Reds wanted to gentle him even though he doesn't channel. Most of the gentled male channelers we hear about in the books are taken by Aes Sedai after they have begun to go insane or have raised the Dragon banner. This implies to me that Aes Sedai can only act retro-actively.
7
Daishan: 2003-02-19
The weave Moghedien fooled Nyn and Elayne with didn't work, that's true. But at the return of Egwene's away-party in CoT, the Aes Sedai state that they "tested for resonance", whatever that may be, and found that a lot of Saidin was used. This suggests to me that female Aes Sedai can at least detect if Saidin has been used or not. I would assume that they start by hunting rumors and "test for resonance" when they're getting close. Appearantly they're quite succesful at this, since Jahar Narishma is the only one Taim could find that had the Spark.
8
Dedicated: 2003-02-23
I believe at least a partial answer to the question comes in CoT. Apparently some Aes Sedai that can read residues of saidar can also detect a saidin "resonance". In Chapter 19 "Surprises" the Salidar hall is meeting to discuss what happened when Rand cleansed the source. The AS sent their best at "reading residues" and that party has returned. Quote is on page 468. "'I could all but trace the weave, Mother, and it made no sense at all. None. In fact, it seemed so alien, it might not have been...' Clearing her throat again, she swallowed. Her face grew a little paler. 'It might not have been woven by a woman. We thought it must have been the Forsaken, of course, so I tested for resonance. We all did'... 'The resonance was so strong, we should have smelled it."
So apparently AS have a way of testing for saidin resonance, if not for it actually being wielded. This may help explain how Red Ajah find clues as to where a male channeler could be.
9
Arbryan: 2004-02-26
I also agree with the comments that any ter'angreal that detect a man channeling are rare. Though the simple fact that a Saidin resonance can be detected would lead me to believe that there is the possibility of detecting Saidin. It would probably have to be held by the male, but if you can sense the resonance why not the source?
Now to the Red Ajah. I believe that the Red was the first refuge for the Black, or possibly even started with all Black Sisters. With the DO knowing that LTT would be coming around again what better plot than to have him found by his darkfriends and turned with 13/13 before he could prepare for the last battle? Keep in mind that this thought is subjective and not a formal theory...
Now to finding males with the spark. We know that AS know how to shield a man. While I doubt that it is as easy for them as shielding a female, chances are that is it the same effort (or mostly the same). So you have the basic detective work that gets you in the general area - eyes and ears networks, listening to rumors, etc – or possibly to the man himself. No requirement to sense Saidin, just follow the rumors, test for resonance, and identify suspects. When it's narrowed down to a few you could a) embrace the source near him and look for goose-bumps, b) throw a shield at him, or c) both a and b.
A)Embrace the source and look for goose-bumps. I don't think this is common knowledge, but it would be a more passive way to identify a male able to channel. If they show signs of shivers, or start looking around you quickly throw a shield in place.
B)Throw a shield at him. If you're wrong, no harm. If you're right, the now shielded man won't be as much of a challenge to haul in. There is also a reference (and forgive my inability to find it right now, perhaps someone can help me out?) of some of the males found getting severed (or gentled) before being brought to the tower. My memory might be failing me but I seem to remember a shield slamming home on someone and severing them. If not it doesn't seem a far cry from one to the other, especially if the AS is young, scared, and on an adrenaline rush with her first attempt to haul in a male.
10
dragonsceptor: 2004-02-26
**A)Embrace the source and look for goose-bumps. I don't think this is common knowledge, but it would be a more passive way to identify a male able to channel. If they show signs of shivers, or start looking around you quickly throw a shield in place.**
Not a chance. IIRC, when both the SAS and TAS delegations meet with Rand, they are both confident that Rand did not know they were holding the source and were surprised when he told them he knew. We have the POV of some of the SAS delegation and their internal discussions. It is apparant from this that those sent in the delegation include those of high esteem and a good deal of power. It would be logical to assume the same of the TAS delegation. I can't imagine that cream of the crop of the AS would not be privy to this fact if it were known to the tower.
IMO, it is a matter of detective work. AS hear the rumors, investigate, test for resonace, and capture the men. However, as is discusses regarding the "vileness" twenty years ago, many reds neglected the investigation part and just acted on rumors.
11
Unicorn: 2004-02-26
Initially I wanted to be sooooo sarcastic, but thought the better of if, RJ answers a question a week, some of these are not very suited for bringing out little nuggets. three or four how ever has been our very own Tamyrlin's, and one about tying off weaves, and the Taim/Demandred issue, AND this very question,RJ 's answer giving not much more than what Dedicated posted a few days ago.
What I would like to address is this posted by Arbryan :
"Now to the Red Ajah. I believe that the Red was the first refuge for the Black, or possibly even started with all Black Sisters. " I don't think so, I have posted this argument before, in the theory that Arbryan did not put forth as a theory but his thoughts, well Arbryan someone called Free Will actually did! It is under White Tower in after CoT theories.
My argument, which I really would like some input on (reduced to begging, phaw pathetic) is in short that the Red was founded by Latra Posae. In "Strike at Shayol Ghul" she is mentioned as a very influencial Aes Sedai who disagreed with LTT, and authored what was known as "the fateful concord" which resulted in male and female Aes Sedai actually not even being on speaking terms.
Thats my thoughts call it a theory if you like, but grill me, or hail me just please don't stonewall me
12
Davian93: 2004-02-26
****A)Embrace the source and look for goose-bumps. I don't think this is common knowledge, but it would be a more passive way to identify a male able to channel. If they show signs of shivers, or start looking around you quickly throw a shield in place.****
The current AS besides Elayne and Egwene arent aware of a Males ability to sense a woman holding the OP. Remember the AS in Cairhien didnt believe Rand had "the arrogance" to say he knew when the were embracing the OP. So this is not a likely method of detection.
****B)Throw a shield at him. If you're wrong, no harm. If you're right, the now shielded man won't be as much of a challenge to haul in. There is also a reference (and forgive my inability to find it right now, perhaps someone can help me out?) of some of the males found getting severed (or gentled) before being brought to the tower. My memory might be failing me but I seem to remember a shield slamming home on someone and severing them. If not it doesn't seem a far cry from one to the other, especially if the AS is young, scared, and on an adrenaline rush with her first attempt to haul in a male.****
The incident you're referring to happened when Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne were imprisoned in the Stone and they severed Amico/Joiya I dont remember exactly which it was. As for the Red Ajah accidently severing males, I highly doubt. If you'll recall the Red Sitters were birched for the transgressions and sent into exile for it. For this kind of punishment, it was likely a deliberate act on the Red's part. That policy of severing on the spot probably came about from Black influence on the Red ajah.
13
dragonsceptor: 2004-02-27
Unicorn, I just red the Strike At Shayol Ghul this last week and I was struck with the same possiblity. I think it is very likely that she did found the Red. Remember though that there were many Ajah's (something like 13 IIRC) that coelesced into 7. I would bet she started what would later become the Red Ajah. It is also important to note that she was NOT a DF...just a very arrogant woman. I think of her being kind of like Elaida with more brains.
14
Callandor: 2004-02-27
**I think it is very likely that she did found the Red. Remember though that there were many Ajah's (something like 13 IIRC) that coelesced into 7.**
There were never set Ajah in the AoL. The ajah of the AoL were free flowing, constantly dying, changing, and restructioning groups Aes Sedai that were dedicated to certain causes.
15
dragonsceptor: 2004-02-28
Callandor, I know that. I was trying to make the point that with those shifting ideas, it was likely that she gathered a group of female AS that had similiar feellings to the current Red Ajah. This would have then been one of it's those numerous Ajah you mentioned. I think that many of the ideas of this orignal Ajah were maintained through the years and served as the basis for founding the Red Ajah when the 7 Ajahs were formalized.
16
: 2004-02-28
Yes Callandor(if you havent been to the wolfbrother vs Dreamer theory yet go there) this is what I mean you have a perfectly true point - but no input on the issue and in this case not really any cause. The AOL was not mentioned, the number 12 ajahs was mentioned as being the number of larger ajahs in 47AB with reference to the BWB by free will in his/her theory on the founding of the red ajah.
and so as not to do the same I wil say I think Dragonscepter is right, and I also get the distinct impression that participation in ajahs before the formalization differed on two counts from was is seen after. 1:participation was voluntary 2:participation in one ajah did not nessecarily exclude the participant from joining others.
So it could be likely that the present ajah's are all, fusions of other ajahs who were more specialized. e.g. one for healing fractures and one for healing viral diseases - now merged to the yellow ajah, and so forth. and certainly some of these ajahs would have roots back in time, Balthalmel was a historian(i guess but am still not sure that the book by RJ and T.Pattterson is the one refered to as BWB, if not that is where I got it)and would most likely be in some ajah discussing history, this ajah could have a specifoc historical goal or a general and as such be part of the philosofical foundation for the brown. now I am really rambling so thats it
17
Unicorn: 2004-02-29
That post without a name would be mine - Unicorn
18
Darren: 2004-03-20
Let's see.. how do you detect a man channeling? Follow the chaos....
I have no doubt that there is a ter'angreal or two to help things out, and I'll have to check that line about testing for resonance, but I still don't see why we should eliminate good old gumshoe work.
Almost ALL male channelers are untaught, and not in control of their abilities.... those in control seem to have been at the head of large armies. How hard would it really be?
19
Darren: 2004-03-30
Winter's Heart "With The Choedan Kal"
"So. Unless someone in this accursed age had discovered yet another unknown ability, al'Thor must have acquired a device, a ter'angreal, that could detect a man channeling. From what he knew of what people now called the Breaking, after he himself had been imprisoned at Shayol Ghul, any women who knew how to make ter'angreal would have been trying to create one that would do that." (Demandred)
"A second golden bird, a swallow, hung from her hand by its thin chain. "There," she aud, pointing in the direction it seemed to be flying. A pity she could not say how far away the Power had been channeled, or whether by a man or a woman, but the direction would have to do." (Cadsuane)
The ter'angreal do exist then (Alivia also uses one from Nynaeve, I believe, although it is not 100% clear from the text) but I'm betting they're rare. That said, the Red Ajah probably has the majority of the known ones.
I'm still betting that gumshoe work is enough, though, in most cases.
20
vahn84: 2004-05-18
When you guys are talking about the SAS reading resonances, you assume that they are reading Saidin resonances because Rand was channeling. He was linked to Nynaeve at the time, and in control, and wove Saidar to make the funnel that he used. This was the resonances they speak of. Aviendha's reason for picking apart that gateway was so that anyone with that *rare* ability would not be able to read her weaves. So it is a rare ability/talent, but in this case is only for Saidar. I don't know how easily men do it but I think Rand does at least once to follow one of the forsaken or something, maybe all men can, maybe it's a talent of his. Besides bieng immensley strong, he doesnt seem to have any talents.
21
Callandor: 2004-05-18
**When you guys are talking about the SAS reading resonances, you assume that they are reading Saidin resonances because Rand was channeling. He was linked to Nynaeve at the time, and in control, and wove Saidar to make the funnel that he used. This was the resonances they speak of. Aviendha's reason for picking apart that gateway was so that anyone with that *rare* ability would not be able to read her weaves. So it is a rare ability/talent, but in this case is only for Saidar. I don't know how easily men do it but I think Rand does at least once to follow one of the forsaken or something, maybe all men can, maybe it's a talent of his. Besides bieng immensley strong, he doesnt seem to have any talents.**
No, the SAS investigators clearly show a distinction between saidin, and saidar.
**TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 19 - Surprises
Nisain smoothed her dark woolen skirts nervously and cleared her throat. A gangly Gray with a strong chin and startlingly blue eyes, she had some small repute in matters of law and treaties, but she was obviously uneasy about speaking before the Hall. She looked straight at Egwene with the air of someone who did not want to actually see all the Sitters assembled. "Given the amount of saidar used there, Mother, it was no surprise to find the residues near as thick as the snow." More than a hint of Murandy clung to her tongue, a lilting sound. "Even after so long, I should have been able to grasp some idea of what was woven, if it was at all like anything I'm familiar with, but I have none. I could all but trace the weave, Mother, and it made no sense at all. None. In fact, it seemed so alien, it might not have been. . . ." Clearing her throat again, she swallowed. Her face grew a little paler. "It might not have been woven by a woman. We thought it must have been the Forsaken, of course, so I tested for resonance. We all did." Half-turning to gesture to her companions, she hurriedly turned back. She definitely preferred looking at Egwene to the Sitters, all leaning forward intently. "I can't say what was done, beyond scooping three miles out of the earth, or how it was done, but saidin was definitely used, too. The resonance was so strong, we should have been able to smell it. There was more saidin used than saidar, much more, Dragonmount beside a foothill. And that is all I can say, Mother." A sound fluttered through the pavilion, the sound of sisters letting out the breath they had been holding. Sheriam's exhalation seemed the loudest, but perhaps that was just because she was nearest.**
Also, the same weave that they used at Shadar Logoth, is used at least twice in the camp itself, when Halima's murders are found and investigated.
22
Anubis: 2004-05-19
the question has been answered.
Question:
How do the Aes Sedai of the Red Ajah "find" men who can channel?
Robert Jordan Answers:
We're told throughout the books that the male channelers get goose bumps whenever the females are channeling or embracing the source. However, it is continuously mentioned that the women don't know if the male Asha'man and Rand are embracing or channeling Saidin. So how does the Red Ajah and Cadsuane, find Male Channelers and then gentle them?
There are various ways that the effects of male channeling can be found, weaves that find the resonance of the residues of saidin. Check in Crossroads of Twilight. They do not detect the actual weaves, though, only the residues left after the weave is released. After that, it becomes a matter of detective work. Though perhaps stalking a leopard might be a better metaphor. As for Cadsuane, she has a few more tools at her disposal than other Aes Sedai, the reason for her extremely high success rate. Check Winter's Heart, and a few earlier mentions, for this one.
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charliec: 2004-05-19
vahn84, IIRC the SAS comment on a vast amount of Saidin being channeled there, ergo they were detecting the resonances of male channeling.
24
Dorindha: 2004-05-20
I don't think resonances are the same as reading weaves though - I think one, you can replicate; the other, you just get a sense of what was done there.
25
Callandor: 2004-05-31
**I don't think resonances are the same as reading weaves though - I think one, you can replicate; the other, you just get a sense of what was done there.**
Yes, that is right. The Salidar Aes Sedai only mentioned saidin being used much, much much, more then saidar. They read those resonneces.
However, with saidar, they remarked upon how the weave was so different, that it might not have been woven by a woman (and they are right ;)). They read those residues there.
The residues are what Rand does in his fight with Sammael. He can sense the left overs of Sammael's gateway for example.
The residues give the details of the weave. The resonences, they useage and if it has been used.
