a'varen Is Hereditary
by mandarb: 2003-03-27 | Not yet rated
I believe ta'vereness is hereditary. Now, before you jump all over me, you need to know what you are jumping all over. First off, Rand.
"My father was Januin, of the Iron Mountain sept, clan chief of the Taardad" The Shadow Rising, chapter 57 "A breaking in the Three-fold Land" pg. 664, Hardback.
Now, consider this. It is Seana talking about Rand's father.
"He was clan chief of the Taardad, then, the youngest in memory. Yet he had a way to him, a power. People listened to him, and would follow him, even those not of his clan. He ended the blood feud between Taardad and Nakai after two hundred years, and made alliance not only with the Nakai, but the Reyn, and the Reyn were not far short of blood feud. He very nearly ended the feud between Shaarad and Gashien, as well, and might have had Laman not cut down the Tree. Young as he was, it was he who led the Taardad and Nakai, the Reyn and Shaarad , to seek Laman's bloodprice." The Shadow Rising, Chapter 34, He Who Comes With the Dawn, pg. 393, Hardback
If those are not the signs of a ta'veren, I don't know what is. Healing blood feuds no one else could, people followed him easily, he had "a power."about him.
Now to Mat's father. Throughout the whole series there are references to him being a successful horse dealer. It is hard to be a dealer in anything with lots of success. I suppose that he may have just barely enough ta'veren to give a little more weight to his side than he would have had otherwise.
Apparently, Rand, Mat, and Perrin are extremely strong ta'veren. We aren't told anything useful (that I can recall at lest) about Perrin's dad/mom. Thus, I have come to the conclusion that ta'vereness is Genetic. Rand's father was a fairly strong ta'veren. Mat's was not, but the gene came through and was the dominant one. You are going to say, as one of the many arguments you will come up with, exactly this: "Siuan Sanche has the ability to see ta'veren. Mat's father went to Tar Valon and met with the Amyrlin seat. She would have said something about something like that one of the strongest ta'veren's dad is also ta'veren." Not true. If Mat's father is a ta'veren, he is a very weak ta'veren, or one of Mat's ancestors was ta'veren and Pop just passed the gene on to Mat in recessive format. You couldn't see a gene, and if he is weak she would hardly be able to tell if there was a light around him. Also, in the Guide it said that the ability to channel is genetic. So why not Ta'veren. It is not like Robert Jorden to be radom. In a basic format, here is my Theory:
1. Rand and Mat are ta'veren.
2. Their father's are ta'veren/carry gene. The gene is most likly dominant.
3. Thus, ta'vereness is genetic.
Now, the weakness are that:
1. Neither father is/was ta'veren or does not carry gene.
If you can show me that this weakness is true, then I'll reconsider.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2003-04-01
Well, I guess I would have taken it another way, that the Ta'verness may be a genetic part of the soul. The Heroes of the Horn, like Birgitte, always become Heroes. Rand, being the soul of Lews Therin who obviously was a ta'veren, is also a ta'veren. Lots of traits seem to come through the soul of the person as to what their talents become. Also, if I am not mistaken, the ta'veren component comes and goes according to the wishes of the Pattern. These don't sound like physical genetic traits. That being said, Rand's father was special. It really all depends on what is Ta'veren. Was Mordeth and is Mordeth a Ta'veren? Are all Forsaken Ta'veren? There are many talented leaders, generals, politicians, etc. So Rand's father can be explained away as such, and Mat's father grew up around horses and should be really good with horses. Are all naturally talented people ta'veren? Even though Ta'veren can make small changes in the Pattern, it rules them. Just some thoughts, but I think you will need to find additional examples and explain how Hereoes and other well known leaders from the past, on both sides of the aisle, fit into the equation. :)
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Weird Harold: 2003-04-01
I'll add one more question to Tamyrlin's list: How do you account for Perrin being Ta'veren?
I don't have the exact quote, but one of the explanations of Ta'veren by either Moraine or Verin specifically refutes the basic premise of your theory.
"The pattern creates Ta'veren when and for as long as it requires them." -- OWTTE.
In most cases, being ta'veren is something that happens for a short time and then disappears -- i.e. joe average is in position to affect certain events, the Pattern makes him ta'veren long enough to make the changes It needs made, and removes the ta'veren-ness.
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Anubis: 2003-04-01
Rand's father HAD to be charismatic to lead the clans across the dragon wall so his woman could give birth on dragon mount...
also lews therin killed everyone that carried a drop of his blood... so how do you explain that?
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mandarb: 2003-06-01
Weird Harold: "The pattern creates Ta'veren when and for as long as it requires them." -- OWTTE
Ok, first off, was this the exact quote? Next, I believe that the pattern does spin out ta'veren when it needs them, however it is not done via a big boom and there is the Ta'veren. It is done by way of genetics. The pattern spins the person out and he/she must have genes. It is not willy nilly. For example, say Joe Average is born. He is a Ta'veren. How did he become a Ta'veren? Did the pattern just bestow this on him? No! There must be a physical way for the trait to be there and that is genetics.
Second, “How do you account for Perrin being Ta'veren?” Weird Harold
His father or mother carried the gene.
Tamyrlin: “Also, if I am not mistaken, the ta'veren component comes and goes according to the wishes of the Pattern. These don't sound like physical genetic traits.”
As I already said: does the Pattern just “wish” Ta'verness into existence? How would it do that?
It can't. So it wishes it to be. Thus it uses genes.
Anubis: “Lews Therin killed everyone that carried a drop of his blood... so how do you explain that?” There are other blood lines.
Tamyrlin: What “heroes” were you thinking about? Also, are you saying that healing blood feuds no one else could, made alliances that no one else could, having people(even those not of his clan) following him easily, and having "a power" about him are not signs of Ta'veren? Also, the gene doesn't have to show itself. It may be the ressive gene that rarely comes together. Much like a red heifer. Don't see many of those around
5
Korell: 2003-06-02
First off i believe that Weird Harolds quote if not exact is close enough to be taken as how he says it and no people dont just pop out of the air and they are Tavaren it is somthing that the pattern gives somone who is already in exitance as for genetics you say that it has to have an explination and that genetics is the only logical explenation 2 comments and one is a quote just to think about here A this is not based on Science Fact therfore the rules of the real world do not apply second in the famous words of Sherlock Holmes "Nothing is impossible however improbable" also as it was said above Rands father "HAD" to be a great leader so he could lead his people across the Dragon wall and eventually too Dragonmount so Rand would be Born as profecy foretold
"Anubis: “Lews Therin killed everyone that carried a drop of his blood... so how do you explain that?” There are other blood lines"
Rand is most Likley not related to LTT in anyway except they have the same soul now as such you think that Tavaren is genetic then if you can surmise that then it would almost undoubtedly be true that soul passing would have to be true which would mean that Rand is related to LTT but there is no real basis for either statment i am with the others on this one Tavaren is somthing recived out of Neccessitie not from genetics Rand was Spun out because the world would need him soon...now here is where i make the comment that does not exactly help you but does not hurt either...the agelace repeats itself for the most part think about this then i am born with Tavaren but it never shows its need until the moment of need i think this is somthing you missed in trying to explain your genetic theory but if you were right this would be a good explanation however as it was said before Perrins father is a good example and tavaren would have had to be dormant ever since Mantheren which would be ever since the war of the shadowand that is a LOOONG time to be dormant just another thought though
6
moonstar404: 2003-06-02
Mandarb, you have some good points regarding the genetic reality of being ta'veren, however, there is more than the one weakness for your theory. The weakness you pointed out (i.e. if neither parent had the gene) would be one of the more prominent reasons, there are several others. First, Rand, Mat and Perrin are all reincarnated heroes (Rand - LTT, Peerin - Hawkwing, Mat - conglomeration of great generals/leaders. Rand's birth, at the very least, was fore-ordained. I suspect that since Mat and Perrin are crutial to the Light's success, their births were also pre-ordained. Your only fact linking ta'veren to genetics is Rand's father. What you are not taking into account is that Rand's mother HAD to be on Dragonmount for Rand's birth. Events surrounding the Aiel and Rand's parents had to skew themselves in order for that to happen. Rand's father may have even been ta'veren for a short while. The Pattern does things like this. You attribute Mat's dad's ability to judge horse-flesh as a ta'veren ability. Mat's father has been around horses all his life. His ability to judge how fine an animal a horse really is, is upbringing. Perrin's parents are hardly even mentioned. If ta'veren was genetic, you would see families of very lucky, charismatic people. I doubt that three of these ta'veren families would be farming in the Two Rivers. People who display these characteristics generally end up as leaders, etc. We have seen One father who was almost certainly a ta'veren (Rand's dad), one who MAYBE COULD HAVE BEEN (Mat), and one who was probably not, as RJ hasn't said two words about him (Perrin).
Now, you have a problem with the Pattern being able to make someone ta'veren for a short time. I would say that this is the second biggest problem with your theory. It is clearly stated in the books that one does not have to be ta'veren for their whole life. Aside from this, if the Pattern knows when to spit out Heroes of The Horn, why is it so far-fetched to think that it would know when and who ta'veren would have to show up in to tweak the Pattern back to where it needed to be?
Lastly, a major part of this series is the role Fate plays in twisting the characters' lives. If all of their problems could be explained away by "Oh, well, this is happening because it happened to Daddy. I got it like I got my red hair and blue eyes!" I think a great deal of the helplessness that the characters feel would be gone, as would some of the mystique of the series.
7
Weird Harold: 2003-06-02
Weird Harold: "The pattern creates Ta'veren when and for as long as it requires them." -- OWTTE
Madarb: Ok, first off, was this the exact quote?
No, and it clearly marked as OWTTE == Or Words To That Effect, or a paraphrase of something that is stated several times throughout the books by several different characters.
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Rhodric: 2003-06-25
I don't think that the Ta'veren is heriditary for everyone, but it would seem that Rands bloodline certainly shows some of this, since the breaking.
i think the pattern knew what bloodline rand would come from, the moment that Lews Therin killed himself. Knowing this, it let one of Rand's ancestors lead the aiel out of Paaren Disen (jonai). the pattern then weaved the lives of the aiel descendants of Rand to make sure Rand was born on the slopes of dragonmount.
most of Jonai's descendants witnessed or caused some great event.
Adan, Jonai's grandson, saw the first tinkers leave, and named them lost ones, no longer aiel.
Lewin, Adan's grandson, was the first of the wandering Aiel to kill. became the chief of the non-Jenn aiel.
Jeordam, Lewin's son, met and by implication married the first maiden of the spear. Jeordam was also responsible for creating the short spear of the aiel.
And then me, Jeordam's grandson,who was at the water sharing. okay, so no big event there. (although it eventually led to Rand being born...) OH wait, i also led the aiel to kill the men in ironshirts who tried to cross the dragonwall.
Comran, my grandson, he first found the ogier stedding in the dragonwall.
Mandein, Comran's grandson, was first those at the first treaty of Rhuidean to claim the Jenn are Aiel. (and a clan chief, actually, i think they are all clan chiefs).
(incidentally i didn't give quotes to tell all this, but it is all in TSR, the road to the spear, and, the dedicated")
and then there is Rand's father Janduin who somebody already mentioned. youngest clan chief ever, etc.
i think there is much evidence to suggest that Rand's ancestors are all Ta'veren, of varying strength.
but for Perrin and Mat, i think not.
i wonder if Perrin and Mat would have been Ta'veren if Rand had grown up elsewhere, say, Jehannah.
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Vander: 2003-10-05
i dont think that it means much that all of Rand's Aiel ancesters saw all the important things...all the chief's and wise ones go into the center of Rhuidean and learn the past of the aiel through their ancestors eyes. i think ALL the aiel have ancesters that witnessed all the important events, or at least all the ones that become CCs or WOs.
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Anubis: 2003-10-06
well yeah, because only the aiel that witnessed the important events survived to become modern aiel.
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IkilledAsmodean: 2004-02-15
Okay, not really concerned with how this affects the (interesting) theory.
However, I think Mat's father has been sold short in this discussion. he wasn't merely good wiht horses, he was excellant. not only that, but it was mentioned a few times that every time Abel had made a deal that seemed to be bad on his part, it always seemd to turn around the other way. That's more than merely good. Even the Taren Fairy people were in awe of him, it mentioned. Also, in regards to the genetics portion of the theory, it should be mentioned that Mat's sister Bode turned out to be a strong chaneller, too.
Also, in regards to soemthing mentioned here, where exactly does it say that Suian Sanche could see Ta'veren?
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Davian93: 2004-02-15
Siuan mentions it during her conversation with Moiriane when she comes to Fal Dara at the beginning of TGH. Something like, "he glowed like the sun, Agelmar must have thought I was upset with him, I said so little."
So yes, Siuan has the ability to see Ta'veren
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Rhodric: 2004-02-15
in the beginning of tGH, Siuan says to Moiraine something along the lines of "I saw him (Rand) there, blazing like the sun." actually she admits to the talent before she says this. a quotemaster can give you more.
in defence of my last post, first i would like to say i wrote that a long time ago in my infancy here and as such the tone is somewhat... immature. I would now say that the important events seen are to do with Rand's ta'vereness - like Shaiel/Tigraine, or the water sharing. patterns within patterns to create the right conditions for Rand to be born on dragonmount.
In Rand's flashbacks, there are certain events that are, IMO, extremely important to the current state of the Aiel with respect to Rand and the last battle.
**Lewin, Adan's grandson, was the first of the wandering Aiel to kill. became the chief of the non-Jenn aiel.** Rand's ancestor was the first (wandering) Aiel to kill a person, which eventually created the warrior force which Rand needed to conquer the world.
**Jeordam, Lewin's son, met and by implication married the first maiden of the spear. Jeordam was also responsible for creating the short spear of the aiel.**
Could it be Rand's ancestor having ta'veren ability that convinced the first woman to take up the spear? maybe, but regardless the maidens are a hugely important part of Rand's current situation. short spear? meh, might be important.
**and then there is Rand's father Janduin who somebody already mentioned. youngest clan chief ever, etc.** and he united 4 clans to go ravage across the dragonwall, something never done before.
these are symptons of ta'verenhood if not proof. although you could argue that all these things happened because of the pattern weaving the correct conditions of the world for Rand to be born into. But the pattern uses ta'veren to put the wheel's weaving back on track. so these events could be caused by ta'veren.
i think there is something significant in what Rand saw in the columns as opposed to what other clan chiefs see. the three things above i've mentioned could not have been seen by very many other clan chiefs (how many different clan chiefs could have an ancestor who married the first maiden of the spear?).
realistically you could probably pin the whole thing down to the importance of rand and his ta'verenhood. although i stand by the statement that some, if not all, of rand's aiel ancestors were ta'veren to a lesser degree.
14
a dragonburned fool: 2004-02-16
Maybe, Mandarb, You overestimated ta'verenness. Ta'verenness doesn't guarantee great works and strange innovation. And great works and innovations do not require ta'verenness. Rand, Hawkwing are extremely strong ta'verens, and they are additionally Heroes of the Horn, etc., and such ta'verens made the fame of ta'verens. But the most common ta'verens, as Moiraine explained about the Web of Destiny, are ta'verens for short period of time in a small area (as a single town), and they remain common people after that. Sometimes innovations are just something the Wheel wants doe to It's ordinary flaw. So Elyas became wolfbrother (the first wolfbrother known to wolves after a long long time)long before Perrin and he is not necessary to be a ta'veren.
Ta'verens are extraordinary effects. And ta'verens are not something that makes the ta'veren to do great things, but something to make others to do odd things without visible reason. That makes the great works easier, but the great works are due to normal skills. Charismatic leaders are normal skill. In the books there are tons of charismatic leaders, are all of them genetic ta'verens? In the books there are tons of inventors, are they ta'verens too? The Wheel just weaves changes now, that is the normal characteristic of the time period, ta'verenness has nothing to do with, ta'verenness is exceptional, while the Changes in the end of the Ages are common phaenomenon for that time.
15
Khaos: 2004-02-16
You need to really think about what being Ta'veren means. It is a person who shapes the pattern around themselves as opposed to the pattern shaping them. It means people doing or saying something they never would have done under normal circumstances. Now admittedly some of what Janduin did would suggest he was ta'veren but as for the rest of Rand's ancestor's for the most part it seems more like they were being shaped than doing the shaping. For that matter being a good horse trader is not a sign of being Ta'veren.
Also the example of Rand Perrin and Mat shows that being Ta'veren is something which only becomes active when it is required as boys they were not shaping the world around them as they are now (Rand in particular)
16
Rhodric: 2004-02-17
***Now admittedly some of what Janduin did would suggest he was ta'veren but as for the rest of Rand's ancestor's for the most part it seems more like they were being shaped than doing the shaping.*** - Khaos
Khaos, i think your right and it's actually Rand's ta'verenhood working across time - that's a very bad description i just gave, but you get the idea. the pattern shaped these aiel to do these things which created the right conditions for Rand to be born as prophecy required.
yeah all right, none of em are ta'veren, 'cept maybe Janduin. *sigh*
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a dragonburned fool: 2004-02-17
Ta'veren is said to shape the Pattern. Ta'veren is said also to be even more restricted in his actions then normal people and we see thhat is true abou the tree ta'verens, especially about Mat and Perrin. And when a ta'veren is affecting lives of other people in a t'v manner, it's not in the way the t'v wanted to affect them, but in the way needed for the t'v's destiny. Needed for ta'veren's destiny means: determined by the Pattern what it is to be. So, IMO the more exact definition for the relation between the ta'veren and the Pattern is, that ta'verens are used by the Pattern, for the Pattern to shape itself in a different way. The Pattern shapes itself around a t'v like a female channeler embraces saidar - she obeys to the power for to have full control over it.
So t'v is not a mark for a change in the Pattern. The Pattern manages it's own changes and does it in different ways. T'v is one of Pattern's methods, a different method to make innovations. We have t'v not when extraordinal things happen, but when the Wheel controls the threads using an extraordinal method. Not all new things are marks of a t'v. Else we would have too many ta'verens.
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Vimmzy: 2004-02-17
So what if all of rands ancestors were ta'verens. They had to do all of those things they did for him to be there. So that wouls explain why the pattern made them ta'veren if that is the case. i believe that is is as simple as that. The pattern needs a ta'veren so it finds a suiting personality for what it has intended. over and done with..
IF this is not the case i believe that a much more likely thing would be that your soul carry the ta'veren seed. And that when a ta'veren will be needed the patterns spins the soul out. I don't think mats dad is a ta'veren though, maybe he is lucky as mat or something but all of the things said about him could come down to him beeing a master horsedealer. It can't be uncommon for a master to strike a deal with a nonmaster and come out the better.. well that is all for me now.
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Callandor: 2004-02-17
**So, IMO the more exact definition for the relation between the ta'veren and the Pattern is, that ta'verens are used by the Pattern, for the Pattern to shape itself in a different way.**
I do not agree with this, but it maybe simply too ambiguous right now.
This is from a RJ letter regarding the Pattern:
**It is not a matter of the lives being forced necessarily. It's wide, you have the Pattern, the Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behaviour is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives.**
Basically my point of view stems from one assumption, that I believe to be practically fact: All the Heroes of the Horn are ta'veren.
Every person that has done enough to gain the status of being a Hero of the Horn was, is, and will be at sometime a ta'veren when the Pattern needs them; that is how they are "corrective measures", as RJ said in the letter.
That is NOT to say that all ta'veren are Heroes; that is false to me. A ta'veren can be anyone that the Pattern needs to correct something, from the big to the small. Most ta'veren are most likely some Hero reborn into a new guise, but the lone person in a small village who is a ta'veren for a period of 2 days and effects, oh say the result of a trial, is not necessarily a Hero; the Pattern needed that ta'veren for that time, and didn't require a Hero to be spun out for that.
Going back to the original statement, I don't agree with the Pattern using ta'veren to shape itself in a new way; the Pattern uses ta'veren to make itself back to what it knows it is supposed to be.
