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he Four Options
by Tamyrlin: 2003-01-04 | 3 out of 10 (6 votes)
Previous Categories: Egwene's Kidnapping
The first is the Black Ajah - Halima and Delana are responsible for picking those who were killed. Did they chose them because they were well aware of the plan and were trying to not only ruin the plan, but also planned on capturing Bode and Leane? Only to be much more happy with taking Egwene? In Egwene's ter'angreal future she is taken and wakes up around black ajah. I think this is one theory that can be pushed.
The second is treachery in Egwene's Hall. We know that the Hall was aware of Egwene's plan. So, did someone simply betray the plan to Elaida?
The third is the bargaining table - Did Elaida make a deal that if she was given Leane, Siuan, and Egwene, then she would allow the rest to return. Was this what was meant by "more than we bargained for"?
The last is the this was Egwene's plan in the first place. She obviously had to know that if she told the Hall it would get leaked, possibly to the WT. Was she trying to force someone's hand, then quickly take the place of Bode, to purposefully get caught and hopefully end the standoff? Or what else do she and Siuan have planned? Will she be rescued by some? Why would she do it this way? Will Gawyn hear of it and come to her rescue.
I haven't chosen any of these as the one I am going to push as theories just yet, but I think the Black Ajah one is a likely idea along with Egwene purposefully getting caught (I can't except that Egwene would be that dumb, to do it herself and get caught, after coming so far.) So, maybe the theory I want to be true is that Egwene meant to be kidnapped.
Comments
WinespringBrother: 2003-01-08
With regard to the black ajah, they have more important things to worry about, such as not being discovered - Alviarin probably diverted all resources to cover her a** after her little talk with Shaidar Haran. Besides, Egwene was already in the hands of the Dark One so to speak, namely Halima.
The third option works only if the negotiators arranged for Egwene to be at Northharbor, which they obviously didn't since it was a secret plan that only Egwene knew about, to replace Bode at the last minute.
I don't think it is the last option either, as Egwene's thoughts were that they were waiting for her and someone betrayed her, so she certainly didn't plan for that to happen.
As for the second option ... I think it was Elaida's doing.
Elaida: "who would have thought they would rediscover traveling? Imagine what we can do once we know that." (COT pg 511)
Sounds like a good motive for Elaida to capture her rival amyrlin. She knows about the effects of forkroot. And she didn't seem to care too much about the negotiations. So she might have had other plans up her sleeve, which involved spies/infiltrators in the rebel camp, who knew that something was going down that night.
She certainly turned over a new leaf somewhere, taking some control of events from the hall, and taking down Alviarin a few notches.
dionysus: 2003-01-12
I believe the option is limited to Sisters who haven't sworn on the Oath Rod, almost definately Black Ajah.
"A sister who had sworn on the Oath Rod would not be able to make herself set those weaves, perhaps not even to form them, unless she could convince herself she was in immediate danger from the ships." While the people probably didn't want to kill Egwene, they probably couldn't guarantee one of the boatsmen weren't killed.
As for betrayal, Sheriam has been named Black a long time ago and is on the inside with Egwene. It should be quite easy for her to find out the plan.
Captain Cauthon: 2003-01-13
Let's not forget our good friends Nicola and Areina who disappeared oh so conveniently just a few days before the incident. It's quite possible that they managed to find out about the plan somehow using their notorious aptitude for espionage. Bitter about Egwene and others' snuffing of their various blackmailing schemes, they could have decided to take the information to someone who would turn things around by snuffing Egwene's plan. The most likely one for them to run to would be Elaida, who could promise advanced lessons and a promotion to Accepted.
SkullOne: 2003-01-14
I agree with the Captain above. If you're displeased with teachers, what do you do? Find another teacher. She didn't like the way she was being taught. She thinks that she can do more, although the sisters say no. So in all likelyhood, she went to the tower in look for better teachers & ultimately betrayed Egwene. Remember, she doesn't like Egwene anyways.
jaellon: 2003-01-15
I don't think we can rule out oath-bound sisters. We only have Egwene's limited perspective on what actually happened. Her assailant may not have intended to injure or kill her, only to stop her from channeling. Cutting her off from the One Power may not have been possible, given Egwene's strength. We have no explanation of how the oarsmen fared. They may have been killed, but then again, they may have not been touched at all. If all this were the case, the sister would have been within the requirements of the three oaths.
That being said, I think the evidence points to the Black Ajah. There is no doubt that Halima killed Anaiya and Kairen. Whether Bode was the next target or Halima was trying to remove those two so Bode would be forced into the mission, it seems likely that Halima was a part of the betrayal of that mission.
WineSpringBrother suggested that the Black Ajah couldn't have been a part of it, since Alviarin has diverted all resources to recovering from her crisis with Elaida. While it's certainly true that she's frantically doing everything she can, I don't think the Black Ajah is necessarily innocent, for three reasons: 1)communication within the Black Ajah is somewhat tedious, so many members won't yet be focused on her crisis, 2)even if she dared, Alviarin wouldn't be able to command all Black sisters to drop their plots and ignore their opportunities, and 3)the only way the Black Ajah can help her now is with an uprising, and that doesn't seem likely just yet.
Callandor: 2003-01-16
On page 517 Shaidar Haran says "You will find who threatens my creatures here and deliver them to me."
Now what bigger threat then Egwene? If she succeeds then the Black Ajah might be cast out entirely and certainly Alviarin.
So I think she arranged it to save her a** as someone so elegantly put it :-).
Elder Haman: 2003-01-17
Sheriam isn't Black. At least that's not how I read it. It sounds to me as if a Black Sister is torturing Sheriam because she foolishly trusted someone (who trurned out to be Black) with the fact that she had been forced to swear fealty to Egwene.
Anubis: 2003-01-18
The dark one wasn't refering to egwene. Egwene was not directly attacking the black ajah at that moment. He was refering to the Aes Sedai that had gathered elaidas proof that alviarin was BA.
Jacqlyn: 2003-01-20
I would like to go with the theory that maybe she had planned it this way. Maybe she knew what was happening because of things she patched together from her "dreams."
It is possible that she did this but will also contact her rebel forces outside by using her abilities in TAR. She could also contact someone like Perrin or Mat and let them know that she is there. They could then bring in the Seachan, which, if you remember, was one of her dreams in the CoT along with the dream that either her or Elaida will be imprisioned.
I think she knew what she was doing. Why did she want Bela to hurry? Why did she get there just in time? Why didn't she let Bode do it. Sure, she is better at changing iron, but she knew the risks. She knew the rules of being a leader.
Anyway, those are my ideas.
jason wolfbrother: 2003-01-20
But why would she ask for help from Mat or Perrin. She doesn't know where they are and doesn't know what condition they are in. I think she will use her Dreamer abilities to subdue Elaida and Alviarin from T'A'R. Remember just because you are shielded in the real world you aren't shielded in T'A'R.
Callandor: 2003-01-20
I dont think they will use a shield on Egwene anytime soon. I think they will just keep her on forkroot. Now when they do get around to a shield on her, then she could do what she did in TDR.
Question is can a dreamer enter TAR while under the effects of forkroot?
Anubis: 2003-01-20
Answer, i can see no reason why not. There are dreamwalkers although rare, that can dreamwalk and not channel. So it would seem that they are probably related, but not required to channel to dreamwalk.
Tamyrlin: 2003-01-21
No, forkroot disables your ability to enter T'A'R. For example, when Egwene gave Moghedien the forkroot. It puts the person into a type of sleep that prevents them from moving through the GOI to touch T'A'R.
Anubis: 2003-01-21
I can't recall an instance of egwene giving moggy any forkroot. (the female characters are easy to mix up arent they ;) )
I think you are refering to when Nynaeve gave moggy the stuff to drink in the dream world. i dont remember it being mentioned that it was forkroot, it was jsut somthing to make her sleep deeply so she could not follow, and so she could be bracletted. And on second thought, forkroot does make you drowsy and unable to concentrate which would prevent dreamworld access anyways.
-------
Yes, thank you for the correction about Nynaeve, but it was forkroot.
Dragons Shadow: 2003-01-21
Has anyone thought of the possibility that it was Gawyn's men that captured her? Could she be coming to his moment of decision when he either kneels or breaks her neck. Could this be why she only decides to go at the last minute? Because she is risking the entire war against Elaida on the chance that Gawyn will kneel and join her? Who knows. RAFO!!!! (He He)
Callandor: 2003-01-22
No, if it was Gawyns men I think that they might be called in to capture Egwene and if they were they wouldnt exibit there suprise at her capture at the end.
And I am willing to bet in the next book will be the coming to closure the entire will Gawyn save Egwene or will he let or die or kill her himself or whatever.
FaeRogue: 2003-01-22
Here's another option that goes in hand with the BA theory, maybe Egwene was compulsed (by Halima, any of her massage sessions would have worked) to trade places with Bode. Compulsion was mentioned not too much before (possible hint). Egwene is not stupid, and I highly doubt she'd take a risk like that just because she was feeling guilty over Bode, and she's far to aware of her duty as Amyrlin.
I don't think Egwene let herself be captured on purpose. Why would she think she had been betrayed if that's what she was expecting.
Callandor: 2003-01-22
I don't think that Halima had a role to play in at least compulsing Egwene. If I remember didnt Halima leave to go somewhere before Egwene went to meet Bode and Leane?
However Halima could've played a part with the BA being informed by Halima.
Galadriel: 2003-01-24
My question is this. Wouldn't Egwene have not been in this predicament if Nynaeve and Elayne had just bothered to teach the inverted weave, and hiding your ability to channel to Egwene before leaving for Ebou Dar? Some friends. And why didn't Egwene ever get that one from the horse's mouth (Moghedien) when she had the chance. It's not like it wasn't right there in front of her. Moghedien was surrounded by an inverted weave that maintained her Illusion and masked her ability to channel. Someone wasn't paying attention.
jason wolfbrother: 2003-01-25
Who says she doesn't know those weaves. Obviously she knew that Moggy was masking her ability with an inverted weave. I think she does know them and simply waiting until she actually gets into the tower to cause some havok with the TAS and dethrone Elaida.
dionysus: 2003-01-30
A quick point:
Inverted weaves simply hide weaves that have already been cast; it doesn't stop others from seeing as you cast it. Egwene probably knows how to invert them, but it wouldn't have helped her in that situation.
ChoedanKal: 2003-01-31
Even if Egwene could invert a weave it wouldn't stop the watching Aes Sedai from seeing the big glow of saidar around her.
As for the theories, after going over the text at hand- i think we can deduct that first, it seems highly unlikely Ewgwene planned on getting kidnapped. She even told Siuan to wait for her return, combined with her surprise at being captured i think we can safely rule out the "she planned on getting kidnapped" theory.
Second, unless Siuan somehow betrayed her, (which i seriously doubt) i don't think anyone else knew that Egwene was going out to perform said task. Her captors appeared just as surprised as she was- "more than we bargained for". Assuming someone betrayed her, I think it is meant in the sense that her plans were betrayed- someone leaked them to someone in the whitetower and so they knew what to look for. The fact that they ended up getting the Amyrlin, i think was a pure bonus.
As for who betrayed her plans, I doubt it was Halima, i'm more inclined to agree with Captain Cauthon- that the most likely suspects at this point are Areina and Nicola.
Dragons Shadow: 2003-02-01
I still think that it may have been some of the Younglings and an Aes Sedai or two. Remember NOBODY except Gawyn knows of his feelings for Egwene. Also, I did NOT say that the Younglings were there specifically to capture Egwene. Her captors just HAPPEN to be Younglings. Perhaps they found out about Elaida's plans to destroy the unit. They may have turned to sisters trying to escape Elaida -- i.e. the moles (not all have been bound yet). These sisters would still be suprised by Egwene as Amerlyn. (They left before she was even summoned.)
Anubis: 2003-02-06
Considering that the forsaken and moghieden know how to hide their active channeling from the modern aes sedai, i would say that it is safe to assume that egwene knows how to also.
Logain: 2003-02-08
Looking at the evidence to hand and with the knowledge that we're only a few books away from the end, I'm going on the assumption that Elaida's people *haven't* captured Egwene. We all know Elaida's plans for Egwene, and even though we know that Egwene can be healed of stilling, she'll lose her position as Amyrlin. There isn't much chance of that happening though because we're so near the end of the series that Jordan would have to add another two books at least to his 2-3 prediction.
Elaida's people wouldn't wait; they'd still Egwene on the spot, rather than give her forkroot. So for that reason I don't believe Elaida's people have her. Unless, of course, with the rebel's army so close, Elaida might want a hostage to ensure the good behaviour of the rebels.
Remember too that although Alviarin knows all the hearts of the Black Ajah, she doesn't really dare to hold a gathering. She's busy looking for the AS hunting the Black or at least she should be if she knows what's good for her.
I'd also discount Egwene planning to get kidnapped, because she'd have to know that all the rebel AS will be busy umming and ahhing for two months while they figure out whether they should press on with the attack or not.
As for who might have betrayed Egwene, I don't think it was Nicola but I do agree she has switched sides. To go out on a limb, I'm going to make a fairly shocking suggestion and its probably way off but I think the betrayer was two people - Romanda and Lelaine. Jordan has taken great pains to establish that these two hate each other and are shocked when they agree on anything. But Siuan and Leaine are doing the same thing, and pulling the wool over everyone's eyes.
But what if they're working together? What if Egwene's thoughts on the oath rod angered them so much they just decided to get rid of her, with Lelaine and her unofficial side-kick Maigan going for a little compulsion session to make sure Egwene takes Bode's place?
They don't necessarily have to be black, but they may just be doing what they think would be for the best by getting rid of Egwene. Then they could have contacted any sister they knew in the city and told them they were sending a present their way. Romanda and Lelaine wouldn't even have to say who it was; just a 'present' would do. They may even have made a bargain with Elaida to not meet any punishment when they returned to the tower. With Egwene gone and out of the way, they could take control of the Hall and pretend to be so scared that their leader is gone that wouldn't it be better to just give up and rejoin the tower without a fight?
This theory probably contradicts itself a bit, but I need a smoke and I'm going to end it here, except to agree that Gawyn will probably save Egwene's neck and bring her back to camp, where she can expose Romanda and Lelaine.
Anyway that's enough for me now :-)
Graendalboytoy: 2003-02-09
While not solving anything, I would like to point out that if Nicola had gone over to Elaida, she could have attacked the boat without being restrained by the oaths. She hasn't taken them. Or any other novice or accepted for that matter
Anubis: 2003-02-10
Egwene was "betrayed" by halima. halima has being somehow reading egwenes mind and wants to maintain the stalemate among the towers. so she has been killing those who would do the cuelindar thing. (s)he prolly betrayed egwene to keep up the stalemate between the towers, or maybe it was random chance. we do know that the seanchan are going to attack the white tower, and that rand and egwenes people and rand and the seanchan are in contact. there may be some unity going on soon.
mischasmeg: 2003-02-13
I think that Egwene has been feeding Halima all her plans while getting her "head rubs" (being compulsed into telling her plans), and Egwene doesn't even know it.....so the BA would of course know where and what Egwene was planning.
Janstince: 2003-03-12
Actually, there is something definitely of interest here. P.677: "Something flashed across the moon, and her breath caught. For an instant, she thought it had been a Draghkar, an evil sight on this of all nights." Of course, she dismisses it as a bat. Or was it? We know that it could have been:
a) a bat. If it was, then nobody cares.
b) a Draghkar. If it was, then it's not too big a deal. Oh yeah, shadowspawn in TV. Big scary we don't care because we know the BA does exist.
c) a raken or to'raken. Now THIS has some possibilities. Egwene gets kidnapped just as the morat'raken are scouting the area. Soon, the Fists of Heaven will come, although where they came from is anybody's guess.
So, with that in mind, perhaps the Seanchan attack is closer than we think. Perhaps a captive Amyrlin is not captive in the White Tower, but of the Seanchan. After all, her dreams were of running from the Seanchan, and receiving help from one.
Callandor: 2003-03-17
If the Seanchan are scouting the White Tower and are aiming there that must mean that they are close by (relatively).
I think that if they moved north, THROUGH Andor, or around the Mountains of Mist from Tarabon, THROUGH Arad Doman, that we would have SOMEBODY talking about it.
Anubis: 2003-03-18
the seanchan are planning on attacking the white tower. when truth seeker boy goes and sees general boy the general is looking at a map of tar valon. he says that he is not part of the invasion, but thinks that because he had had some small success against asha man people sought his advice in fighting channelers.
Weird Harold: 2003-03-19
Janstince:
"c) a raken or to'raken. Now THIS has some possibilities. Egwene gets kidnapped just as the morat'raken are scouting the area. ...
So, with that in mind, perhaps the Seanchan attack is closer than we think. Perhaps a captive Amyrlin is not captive in the White Tower, but of the Seanchan. ..."
Thank you for finding and posting that quote. I've been looking for a version I can cut & paste ever since I first read it.
I think your ideas are a bit short of the mark. I think that what Egwene saw was actually part of the attack, rather than a scout. The to'raken she saw was landing a load of damane or Fists on the TOP of the White Tower.
Callandor:
"I think that if they moved north, THROUGH Andor, or around the Mountains of Mist from Tarabon, THROUGH Arad Doman, that we would have SOMEBODY talking about it."
I don't think they moved *through,* they moved OVER. Flying from way-camp to way-camp spaced 200 miles apart in unpopulated or remote areas.
Anubis
"...the general is looking at a map of tar valon. he says that he is not part of the invasion, ..."
Banner General Furyk Karede's encounter with Seeker Almurat Morr in CoT, "A Doll's Story" also reveals the owner of the map -- introduced as Air Captain Yulan in tPoD CH: 23 or CH: 24. He's a Banner General in CoT I think, but he's definitely one of the Seanchan's top "Airborne" commanders and tacticians.
There's a long discussion on the message board, so I'll only add that the Seanchan are an Airborne Force in a basically pre-flight civilization. The White Tower is depicted as having a flat top in the BWB; The Seanchan's Top Airborne Operations Planner is "Up To Something" (with plenty of time to be executing his plan by the end of the book), And Egwene's dreams predict they will attack the White Tower and save her in process.
Egwene isn't in Seanchan hands YET, but it's only a matter of hours before she is.
Of course, this theory can't possibly be right. Egwene specifically asked about her dreams' meaning and was told, "Impossible, my dear, the Seanchan are thousands of miles away." ;)
Anubis: 2003-03-23
kinda arrogant and stupid of those that just rediscovered traveling to assume that it is impossible to travel thousands of miles quickly...
Janstince: 2003-04-13
That is true that it's stupid and arrogant of them to believe that nobody else can travel thousands of miles quickly, except maybe the Asha'man, but who wants to talk of them. After all, if Aes Sedai don't know it, it's not known, right? (in case you can't tell, i'm being sarcastic :) ).
Anyway, moving onward, yes, I wouldn't be entirely surprised at Egwene getting captured by the WT only to be rescued within hours by the Seanchan or Gawyn, maybe both. As for the timeline, well, we know RJ does fun things with timelines. My impression of RJ is this, "The fourth dimension does not exist as time, but as cheese. Time is only perceiveable, therefore, if you perceive it to be different, then it will go better with a different wine. I mean cheese. Now, what was your question about the scarves in the first book?"
We do know, for 2 more recent examples, that he's willing to cut the timeline to shreds at the end of a book. At the end of LoC, it talks of Moghedien escaping, which doesn't happen until we're well into, hrm, either ACoS or PoD, can't remember which, really. Then, at the end of PoD, we see them making a giant gateway to Travel to near TV. Of course, in WH, we learn that that isn't going to happen for a few more weeks. What I'm trying to say here is that just because Jordan put Egwene being kidnapped in CoT doesn't mean a whole lot of other crap hasn't already happened that he just didn't want to write yet, or something, so that's not really a good guideline to use.
Now, as for cheese. I apologize to any and all cheese entusiasts, and I hope that if I offended you, then you can go drink your wine and cause temporal distortions at your leisure.
Weird Harold: 2003-04-14
Jastince said, "What I'm trying to say here is that just because Jordan put Egwene being kidnapped in CoT doesn't mean a whole lot of other crap hasn't already happened that he just didn't want to write yet, or something, so that's not really a good guideline to use."
RJ's use of overlapping POVs dosn't change the timing relationship between events; it only fills in the gaps in our knowledge of what other events surrounded them. Events inthe book have never beenpresented in a purely liniear fashion, and the use of flashbacks -- like the scarves incident -- only makes keeping the timeline straight harder.
However, that doesn't mean that the events don't actually happen in a linear fashion -- we just don't learn of them in a linear fashion.
The Leveler: 2003-04-15
I think Egwene will be taken before Elaida who threatens her with severing and other nasty fates if she doesn't swear fealty to elaida and teach them Traveling and evereything else she knows. she will go the TAR and get help from everybody she can. The Sitters/Dreamwalkers will Travel into the Tower with an army and...ta da! Elaida gets the headsman.
Korell: 2003-04-17
this is just for those on the forkroot kick not that this is solid but i was reading an interview with RJ recently and it states that you can channel from a well while shielded this does not solve the forkroot problem however could give her an out once she is being shilded however this falls short because i would think they would confiscate a well assuming they would find it....i think the person who said this is Gawyns time to do his deed weather it be rescue her or let her die is correct i think there are few who doubt it in fact but it will be interesting to see
Janstince: 2003-05-17
I dunno, I see it a bit differently, really. That whole thing with the scarves and the timelines, well, really. C'mon, two different guys gave them scarves and said the same thing. This wouldn't be TOO SCARY, if they hadn't also somehow lost those first scarves and then also forgotten about the entire incident, or at least let it go unremarked. Frankly, I don't think that's what happened, I think Jordan just put the incident in a bit early, then showed a flashback leading up to a previous incident (which happened exactly the same), and promptly forgot everything, until somebody pointed it out and I hear that the new version of tEotW has it in a corrected fashion, timewise. As for the other stuff, well, yeah, he's just putting stuff forward, like the opening of the gateway to Travel to TV. In other words, it's kind of like a teaser. What I was trying to say is not that he's screwing with the timeline again (oh please oh please oh please never again), but that he's just giving us a glimpse of what's going to happen sometime in the next book. Either that, or the Seanchan attack is going to happen a lot sooner than we expected. How Gawyn fits in with the Seanchan, bah, who knows.
Anyway, we've kind of gotten off the topic of this discussion, so let's just throw it back out there. Personally, I don't think that the rebels betrayed Egwene. After all, she is their Amyrlin, and if they don't like her, then they can depose her. I can't see Elaida letting up on their punishments just because they hand over a puppet. I don't think the BA was involved, either. Halima seems to be interested in the plans Egwene has for cuendillar makers, but it seems to me that she has had several opportunities to kidnap Egwene herself, and kill her or hold her hostage or do whatever if need be. No sister would know what happened until it was too late anyway, so I don't believe Halima had anything to do with it, alone, at least. I had thought that maybe it had something to do with a power struggle between Halima and Mesaana, where Mesaana wanted to take away some of Halima's lackeys, but they both seem to be cowered to Moridin's will, and I doubt either one would make this big of a move without his approval. This leaves a few options, still.
As for why somebody could make those weaves for attack without being BA, that's simple. Many things have resurfaced in the Salidar AS camp. Traveling, Skimming, Cuendillar manufacturing, etc. The Tower AS have never seen these things before. A Tower AS sees a weave she has never seen before, such as Egwene's Cuendillar-making weave, and could probably easily assume that it would be to attack, and do who-knows-what in the process, so she attacks back in defense of her life. Simple explanation. The real question is, what bargain? That's the big mystery. Once that is solved, everything will work itself out. What did the Tower AS or BA or whoever trade for Egwene?
rundoctoritsthegatherer: 2003-05-18
I don't think so. Egwene channelled and was pounced on straight away. IDHTBIFOM but I'm sure it said that when Egwene channelled, there was a flash as she turned the chain into cuendillar and then everything went black, or words to that effect. There wouldn't have been enough time for anyone to examine the weave and think "hang on, that's a new one on me.... my very life could well be in danger here". The section earlier in the book with Egwene deciding sinking a ship would violate the three oaths is a bit of a giveaway for mine, meaning no one bound by the three oaths could have done it.
Dorindha: 2003-05-19
Also, it was a trap - so it can't have been just for defence. They weren't expecting Egwene, but they were axpecting someone to catch. (based on what was said - something like we've got more than we expected)
Wolfblade: 2003-05-19
Now the question is who has her. I still believe that it is not the WT or BA because they both would immdeiatley sheild her. Because to the best of my knowledge, they don't really know what happen at Tear in TDR.
So though I don't know who has Egwene. I still don't believe that it is the BA or WT for the reasons given.
Tyr: 2003-06-18
What about Chesa? Maybe she is a spy. She is Egwenes maid after all, so maybe she was cleaning the desk and saw a note carelessly left out. How easy would it have been to report that.Or how easy would it be to over hear Egwene instructing Bode as to what to do. A made would go unnoticed so it would be easy for her to sneak away, let alone send a pigeon. Or maybe Bode is a DF. Just because she is from the same town as Egwene she assumes she can trust her. If there are darkfriends everywhere even in the Aiel waste, why wouldn't there be one in Emond's Field. Maybe Bode leaked some info just to stir things up.
And Halima leaving a weave so she can listen would be easy. No body would sit there in Egwenes tent and check for the presence of Saidin. The Chosen are instructed to cause chaos. Giving up info would flip the WT war upside down, then back again.
Dedicated Gregor: 2003-06-25
Someone in the beginning of this thread made a very valid point that everyone else quicky dismissed or forgot. When being tested for Accepted and going through the ter'angreal, Egwene had the vision of the 13 Black sisters and 13 Myrdraal (was that it?) trying to turn her over to the Dark One. Now consider the possibility that this implies for a variation of what is happening now. In my opinion Sheriam is not Black, but is certainly being tortured and exploited by a Black Aes Sedai. She is also one of Egwene's trusted because she swore the oath of fealty, meaning that she's in a prime position to have found out about Egwene's plans for Bode.
Something else suspicious is why Sheriam was asking for leniency for the girl from Two Rivers, Larine, who helped the novice, Nicola, escape. Also Bodewhin is an old friend of Egwene's which Sheriam knows. Maybe the Black sisters were trying to catch Bodewhin to turn her to the Dark One, because then I believe she would carry out whatever orders she was given, and could be used as a strong tool against Egwene in one way or another.
Now suppose that when the Blacks found Egwene unexpectedly they decided it would be best to try to turn her, because then they would have the Amyrlin of the rebels well under their control and they could easily squash the rebellion if they chose. Now I'm trying to think back to Egwene's vision, here. I think that at the same time she was trying to be turned, Rand was in the tower kneeling before the new Amyrlin to be stilled or controlled, or who knows what? Now we take into account the Epilogue of CoT, where Rand is expected to meet with the "Daughter of the Nine Moons", which we obviously know is false.
We do know that Suroth had the male a'dam that could control Rand, and when we tie the connection between the White Tower, Rand, and the Seanchan (keeping in mind the male a'dam), the possiblity for Rand kneeling in front of Elaida increases greatly. This would definitely speed up the action in the "few" reamaining books, but the question this raises is who will save Rand and Egwene if this happens, and what does the vision of Seanchan attack mean?
Also something to keep in mind is the possible future alliance of the Black Tower and the Rebel White Tower, who could then attack Tar Valon in an attempt to save Rand and Egwene at the same time. I know this seems like a lot to swallow all at once, and it relies upon one possiblity after another, but it seems like everything would work out surprisingly similar to events RJ foreshadowed earlier in the series. What do you think?
Callandor: 2003-06-25
Egwene kept the secret of the chain to herself and a VERY few, to only those who would take place in it (and Bode didnt know until RIGHT up till the actual event). So, the Blacks would have a very hard time, if not impossible time, to figure out what was going on.
Rhodric: 2003-06-30
Callandor you said:
"Egwene kept the secret of the chain to herself and a VERY few..."
what do you mean by 'the secret of the the chain'? if it was turning it into Cuendillar, the whole rebel hall knew. and therefore, potentially the entire BA.
or do you mean the changing so it was Egwene not Bode. i thought it was a last-minute decision so no-one except siuan knew.
Callandor: 2003-06-30
The entire plan wasn't reveled to the hall. The idea was Egwenes alone and she only told those who would be directly involved.
Tamyrlin: 2003-06-30
Actually Callandor, this is something I have been saying from the beginning. Egwene's Hall did know about her plan to seal the harbor with cuendillar. Here is the reference:
TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight, CHAPTER: 30 - What the Oath Rod Can Do
"The talks will go as they go," Egwene said carefully. Romanda had opposed any sort of negotiations, spurious or not. And she knew what was to happen tonight. Keeping the Hall in the dark about that had seemed a needless slap in the face."
Egwene thinks this during a meeting on the day of what will be her trip to seal the harbor.
The Hall knew...which means, anyone could have spilled it.
Shadow Bane: 2003-07-01
I just wanted to say does anyone think there is a chance that Mesaana and Arangar are the ones in control of Egwenes capture. Maybe for the reasons Dedicated Gregor says above a bunch of posts.
juitzhead: 2003-07-17
just wanted to clear up the issue on who has Egwene. ive seen non-AS mentioned:
“Well, well. We certainly got better than we bargained for tonight.”
Something was pressed to her mouth, and warmth trickled in, tasting faintly of mint. She swallowed convulsively, suddenly aware of how cold she was, shivering. Her eyes flickered open. And fastened on the face of the woman holding her head and the cup. Lanterns held by soldiers crowding around gave light enough for her to make out the face clearly. An ageless face. She was inside Northharbor.
“That's it, girl,” the Aes Sedai said encouragingly. “Drink it all down. A strong dose, for now.”
Crazy Ashaman: 2003-08-08
Wow... Seven months worth of posting and no time like the present to put my two cents in!
I just got finished reading CoT about a week ago, and this is what I came away with:
*I was under the impression that she told the hall that very day about the plan, but was vague as possible (considering she told Bode very recently as well). It is hard to say whether she planned to do it herself from the beginning, or whether she was willing to have Leane the other fast one (that was recently killed – Kerin or something??) do it. Which brings up the questions: Where is Leane? Did Halima kill Kerin for the very reason to force Egwene in this position?
*I guessed that the “bat” was indeed a seanchan scout. It goes nicely with the “oh mother, the seanchans are thousands of miles away – we are perfectly safe etc” along with the recent dream.
While many people are open to the 13x13 conversion by the black ajah, I tend to go against it. First, that was in the worst fear ter'angreal. If you recall (From TDR) that she had just viewed Rand trapped under a piece of the destroyed palace in Camylen, about to be converted by 13x13. After coming out from the “present fear” – second time – Sheriam told Egwene about the possibility of a 13x13. Being fresh in her mind, it was only natural to be afraid of that in the future (although I will grant you that RJ loves foreshadowing, and things are never that simple in Randland).
This still leaves the question (and purpose of the post), who betrayed Egwene (if indeed she was betrayed)?
*“We got more than we bargained for” – Well, they were certainly expecting someone.
*“She had been betrayed” This is where you can cut some fine hairs. Was this her thought? Or narration. Either way, it would be more simple to accept it as fact. I therefore rule out that it was all part of Egwene's master plan. I give her credit, but not that much credit.
Now for motives:
I really like the Rom and Leliane idea. Never thought of it. I cannot exactly see their motives though.
The Dark already has Egwene under a thumb with Halima there. The sudden disappearance of Halima to kill the one who was to do the deed in the first place does indeed raise suspicions though. However, if they wanted it, Halima could have taken Egwene to be changed easily enough.
The bargaining table is another interesting idea. They must be frustrated in not getting anywhere, and could have easily made a deal.
Nicola would not have known the exact date, although she may have known the plan. Someone pointed out earlier that AS have not been out on the streets for weeks. Not her.
Knowing that the Hall was told about the plan (I believe the same morning), I am going to throw in my vote for someone at the bargining table. So, now what?
Assuming that the series is indeed winding down, and that Egwene was captured by the tower sedai and not the Black, we will need some of these visions to come true now won't we, and now is the perfect timing.
Eladia will not do anything to harm Egwene, if I recall, she had a dream about making Egwene bow to her and swear fealty, and plus, Egwene is too strong and powerful (it would be funny for her to be stilled, run away, and be healed!). Egwene knows how to make gateways and cuendillar. So, while she is being held, the Airbore Seanchan will strike, and naturally the Salidar Aes Sedai will not stand for this either, and fight beside the Tower Sedai. Gawyn, who as I recall, was trapped in a tiny village and cannot get into TV because of the Salidar army. In the confusion, the Younglings will rush in to help of course, and this is when Gawyn finds Egwene.
I realize there are quite a few holes here, so tear away!
AleneSedai: 2003-09-06
I agree with Crazy Ashaman that Egwene probably only told the Hall about the plan that day. She was very careful about who she told about her plan. The only ones that would know about the plan in advance would be those that helped plan it (probably Egwene and Suain), and Halima. However, lots of people knew about turning items into Heartstone. Everyone knew that eventually the rebels would try something to keep ships out of Tar Valons harbors, and if they also knew about the making of the cuillandar, it would be possible (although not likely) that someone could anticipate Egwene's actions. This is probably how Nicola betrayed Egwene, if it was indeed her. I don't know any other way Nicola could have found out about the plan.
If it was the indeed someone in the Hall that betrayed Egwene, they would have had to move quickly. They would not have expected Egwene herself, though, to do the work. I don't think that it was a non-BA that did it though, because what would they be able to get from Eliada in exchange for one thwarted siege attempt (which would be a deterrent to the rebels, but not a death blow), a novice, and Leane (if they even knew that it would be Leane)? While this is possible, it is unlikely that Eliada would grant them a large amount for it. This means that it is more likely that Halima betrayed Egwene (especially when you add in the deaths of the other sisters).
I think that those deaths were Halima's work, and that makes it more likely that it was Halima that arranged Egwene to be captured. Assuming that it was Halima, why would she do this?
1. This would cause more confusion than Halima was capable of causing if Egwene was with the rebels.
2. Halima could have Egwene turned to the dark, which could not easily be done in the camp.
3. For some reason, Halima may want to force the hands of the various fractions of Aes Sedai.
4. Any combination of 1, 2, and 3.
With 1, this could really cause confusion in the rebel Hall; it could split right down the middle. With 2, Halima could then use Egwene either back with the rebels or to have her to be her puppet dealing with Rand, Rand could notice Halima channeling so Halima can't use Egwene to influence Rand through compulsion. 3, however, is the most intruding possibility and this may happen anyway even if no one intends it too. We can safely assume that there are three factions of the Tower Aes Sedai; Eliada's supporters, those dissatisfied with Eliada (remember that the heads of the Ajahs have been meeting together and even the Sitters don't know why? The most likely reason they would be meeting is to talk about Eliada or the rebels, and while they can't do anything directly about the rebels, they could about Eliada), those Aes Sedai that stay in the Tower because Eliada's actions were more or less legal. There are also the BA and the BA hunters. This could be some scheme to flush the Black Ajah hunters out into the open where they can be destroyed. This could be a prelude to an uprising/exodus of the BA. This one is, of course, assuming that the Tower Aes Sedai are holding Egwene where in #2 the BA would hold her instead.
A few other notes.
The Seanchan could be near using their air born armies. I don't know how near, but it is possible that the “bat” could be a Seanchan scout. If it were an attack, there would probably be many more of them visible.
I heard someone mention something about a possible alliance between the Black and White Towers. The situation in the Black Tower isn't one that I would consider conductive to reaching any sort of arrangement with the Aes Sedai while Taim is in charge. Someone (probably Logain) has to get rid of Taim before that can happen. If you remember Eliada's foretelling in the beginning of tCoS, she says something about the Black Tower being bathed in flame and blood (sorry about not having the exact quote, my brother has my book). This makes it likely that there will be a fight between the Ashamen. Taim and his supporters will be destroyed or driven away, and Logain will become the new leader. Only after this will the conditions be good for an alliance to be made between the two towers (no pun intended).
The male a'dam was also mentioned, and I think that Suroth will use it on Rand, and Perrin will rescue him (Min had that viewing about Perrin having to save Rand from women that can channel twice, and so far he's only done it once).
Deadsy: 2003-09-29
I think the hall knew at least the day before. Egwene is eating breakfast and the sun is on the horizon. A bunch of sisters come to her tent, then Romanda comes in, and Egwene thinks of the fact that the Sitters already know of the plan. So it's likely that they found out the day before, maybe earlier. If they had found out on the day of the plan, then the Hall would have had to meet sometime before sunrise.
That gives plenty of time for anyone to betray Egwene. All of the former sitters of the tower except Janya went to negotiations. The meetings were right across the bridge to the Tower. If the ppl in the Tower found out about it at the negotiations, they would only need 30 minutes at most to get back to the Tower and start planning. So that gave them around 20 hours at the least.
I think there is a 5th option to think about. It could be the people in the tower who are hunting for the black ajah. Whoever kidnapped Egwene wants it secret, and the BA hunters have had some practice moving things around in secret lately. (A shielded Aes Sedai and big tables). They talk to each other about how they will be punished if anyone finds out what they're doing, and they don't want to turn anyone of the rebels yet or tell Elaida. If they captured Egwene I don't think they'd tell her right away. They could use the black ajah sitter Talene to find out info from another black ajah at the negotiations, or they could use the rebel sisters that are obeying them somehow.
This is from Glimmers, so one of them has at least considered using them to get info:
“'I did try,' she said finally, in a breathy tone. She still avoided Yukiri's eye. 'Several times. The Keeper. . . . Alviarin always put me off. The Amyrlin was busy, she had appointments, she needed rest. There was always some excuse. I think Elaida just doesn't want to take up a friendship she dropped more than thirty years ago.'
So the rebels had remembered that friendship, too. How had they thought to use it? Spying, most likely. She would have to find out how Meidani was supposed to pass on what she learned. In any case, the rebels had provided the tool, and Yukiri would use it."
Aragorn: 2003-10-06
I think that there are a couple indisputable facts. First, EG was definately betrayed, hence the "we got more than we barginned for". Whichever AS captured her was expecting someone. Second, other SAS who could make cuielendar(sp) were being killed by saiden. This pts to Halima. Unless there is some random soldier who is also a channeller. Possible, but not likely. So Halima had some interest in cuellendar making AS. She either wanted to totally prevent the harbor from being blocked or wanted to lead another of the cuellendar AS to be captured. Maybe EG was the target. The only other reason I see for Halima to kill those AS is random or something unrealated to the fact they could make cuellendar. I like to think that RJ doesn't do random but who knows.
So, the fact is Halima tipped some AS that another AS was going to block the harbor by making cuellendar. Now, who and why?
Alanna Mosvani: 2003-12-09
I think portions of Egwene's TDR fears will be realized - Elaida is already Amyrlin, and Rand headed to the White Tower by way of the Seanchan seems likely - but the events in the TDR ter'angreal won't be followed literally. Beldeine played an important part in Egwene's fantasy, and she isn't anywhere near the White Tower right now. And nothing I have read suggests Elaida is actually Black Ajah, as Egwene feared in TDR.
However, going back to TDR, some parts are revealing...Egwene thinks to herself, "there's no other way (of rescuing Rand) short of starting a war inside the White Tower." Something she has been avoding until now, but her hand may be forced.
As for who betrayed her, though only the Hall is supposed to have known about it, it may have leaked out - and what is stopping Elaida from having spies among the rebels, as the rebels had spies in the Tower?
Asdred: 2004-03-05
My theory is that Elaida's people got Egwene because someone knew who shouldn't have and told her. In one of her dreams she is going to have her head cut off and someone was running to stop it from happening. The only way I see her in danger of losing her head is if she was caught by Elaida. I also believe that Gawyn will be the one to save Egwene from the chopping block. Of course I was never really good with Theories.
Arbryan: 2004-03-08
Couple things I'd like to point out.
In the Accepted ter'angreal Egwene had a different Keeper. If you believe she has been captured to be turned ask yourself how she is to appoint a new Keeper first?
Halima tends to do things herself. She is a man's soul and tends to be more hands-on with executing her plans. I don't think she would have had others capture a cuendillar maker (Bode) after she had just finished killing a number of them.
The intent was to capture Bode and they were surprised to have Egwene. All Tower AS are suspect because the "more than we bargained for" comment would be in reference to Egwene vs. Bode, not alive vs. dead. The Ageless face of her captor points to an Oath-bound AS and she is forced to drink something as opposed to a collar being slapped onto her neck so we know it's not the Seanchan that have her.
So it's either the Tower AS (BA, BA Hunters, or just regular old Tower AS). Either way, she will likely be taken directly to Elaida with now time to think.
I also have a very tough time believing that RJ would have Gawyn rescue or assist with the rescue of yet another Amyrlin. Remember him helping Mind and Siaun escape? I don't think that was foreshadowing of him being the unlikely mole TWICE. I think that Egwene is on her own and that she is on her own to get herself out of here and prove that she is the Amyrlin, not some silly farm girl from Emond's Field. The tower will still see an Accepted and not a Damane-time-served, Wise One trained, Dreamwalking, Amyrlin. They will definitely underestimate what she is capable of.
ike44: 2004-03-16
I would have to agree with you, Tamyrlin, that I think that of those four that black ajah would seem most likely to me. On the other hand I would have to totally disagree with Egwene purposely getting caught. Most simply because everytime that there has been a possibility of her getting captured (take with the Children of the Light on the way back to Tar Valon for example) she has gone nuts, so to say, and she has already considered the idea and discarded it as not being a plan that would see the White Tower whole again.
Brendan Reborn: 2004-04-05
Why cant it be a combination of 2 of the four?
I think egwene had a dream and rushed to get bode out of it and instead have herself captured, but not knowing who would capture her: the BA. It makes perfect sense. Egwene did see herself being on a table with myydraal and AS around her in the ter'angreal, and it all makes perfect sense. It could be the BA in the tower.
Elder Haman: 2004-04-06
I have a question: What is the Motive?
Why would the Black Ajah want to prevent betray a novice sealing off the harbour? Only reasonable reason is to prevent the sealing of the Harbour. But why would they want that? The Black Ajah want the Tower to be split and to fight!
On the other hand the 5 Old Tower Sitters in the Rebel Hall have a great reason to want to prevent the sealing of the harbour- they want a compromise, not more war. Of course they don't want to betray their Amyrlin, but a novice is expendable. Also they are working for the Tower Ajah Heads, so they have someone they can pass the info on to in the tower. (See Pattern of Sitter that are to Young for details).
Callandor: 2004-04-06
**I think egwene had a dream and rushed to get bode out of it and instead have herself captured, but not knowing who would capture her: the BA. It makes perfect sense.**
The first Dreams Egwene has had since TPOD, were shown to us; no indication of any others that were not, nor any hidden reason by Egwene.
Deadsy: 2004-04-07
If the siege works the way the rebels want it, then there won't have to be a battle at all. That's why the Black Ajah would want to stop it. The harbor getting sealed makes it way less likely that they'll have to have an actual battle. The Tower won't be able to get food and they'll eventually have to surrender. That would be the plan anyway.
Brendan Reborn: 2004-04-07
Maybe the black Ajah thinks that by kidnapping the Salidar Amyrilyn Seat, it will cause the SAS to act through violence. We know that most of the sitters are young, so maybe having young sitters will be a cause of this. They don't have as much experience as the older sitters, and could maybe come to a bad decision.
Elder Haman: 2004-04-07
That might be the plan- but consider Eladia's temperment. I doubt she would willing surrender. Garth Bryne has a much better understanding of military facts than the Aes Sedai. He knows that even if they block the harbours he's going to have to storm the Tower. (Just he'd rather attack starving, demoralized troops).
Callandor: 2004-04-07
**Maybe the black Ajah thinks that by kidnapping the Salidar Amyrilyn Seat, it will cause the SAS to act through violence.**
That is the thing: the Shadow does NOT want the Aes Sedai to act at all. They want a division as long as possible; any act toward resolution, whether violence or peace, would bring the Aes Sedai together and would make them concentrate on the Last Battle instead of each other, which the Shadow wants.
Anubis: 2004-04-07
not really. he could just sit out there untill all the aes sedai and soldiers are forced to either leave or die of starvation. of course this does need to get resolved in the next 2 books so its prolly gonna be a combination of politlcal and millitary action that ends the brokenness of the tower.
Elder Haman: 2004-04-08
The belief that a seige will require a battle at the end Is Garth Bryne's- as he is one of the Great Generals I feel why should accept his expert opinion- also as he is commanding the troops his view is the one most likely to be implemented.
As another note: Historically, many forces have held out through long seiges only to fight a battle at the end- Sometime because they decide their only hope is to march out and do battle with the enemy, other times because the enemy storms the stronghold. Again, neither Eladia nor any Aes Sedai is the sort to just give up.
Also there is the logistics to consider- those under seige are starving, but those doing the seiging are also going hungry- at some point the lost in strength to the attackers will begin to outway the loss to the defenders.
dragonsceptor: 2004-04-08
I agree with you Callandor. The BA wan't a divided tower. If the harbor is blocked, it will be the beginning of the end for the divided tower. The BA should know (as long as they have agents in both camps which I am sure they do) that Elaida and Egwene are both taking hardlines. Therefore, negotiations would be preferable to military action as it can be dragged on for a long time. Whereas military action could (I know not necessarily) lead to a swift end to the divided tower. The BA is a likely culprit for Egwenes capture.
Elder Haman: 2004-04-08
Except that both Delena and Sheriam (coierced in my opinion) are desperatly afriad that the Rebels will capitulate and are opposed to any negotiations. Delena wants Eladia declared Black Ajah! Not condosive to negotiations.
No, the Black Ajah want WAR, they want BLOODSHED. Thay do not want the two sides to even attempt a reconciliation.
Consider, even if there is a conflict with one side "winning" How certian is it that the "losers" agree to the outcome. Afterall Suian's supporters didn't just accept Eladia's coup.
Callandor: 2004-04-09
**No, the Black Ajah want WAR, they want BLOODSHED. Thay do not want the two sides to even attempt a reconciliation.**
No Elder, they do not want a war at all. They want a stand still; they want chaos between, and inside, both camps, but they do not want any chance of it coming to an end. An all out battle in Tar Valon would be working toward an end to the stand still because one group would win eventually, and the Aes Sedai would group together more going by simple victory.
If the Aes Sedai are only concentrating on the other side, and getting the Aes Sedai all together, then they cannot concentrate on their original goal: the Last Battle. This is exactly what the Dark wants.
Oatman: 2004-04-10
Not sure about the Black Ajah, but Halima would want war with the rebels winning, so any Black Ajah under her command wouldnt do anything directly against these wishes. Also, with watsername no longer in a position of power in the white tower, and also being hunted down, she would want to depose of Elaida as well. The way I see it the Black Ajah and Forsaken would want Egwene in power.
Jane-Sedai: 2004-12-11
Why forkroot, if you were attacking someone in suprise you would simply sheild them, not drug them. I think their is an Aes-Sedai involved in this but that the captors suprised to find her do not have skills with the power. Also I think the number of people not Aes-Sedai to know who Egwene is would be a very small amount, so how did they recognise her. I don't think that this is the great capture it seems, perhaps it is Gawyn or Galad trying to thwart rebel aes-sedai plans. A very random thought is that it may be people from Emonds Field searching for Egwene & Nyneave after all this time... they must be worried.
Callandor: 2004-12-14
**Why forkroot, if you were attacking someone in suprise you would simply sheild them, not drug them.**
Egwene is a lot stronger then many Aes Sedai.
**Also I think the number of people not Aes-Sedai to know who Egwene is would be a very small amount, so how did they recognise her.**
The people that captured Egwene recognized her (as per RJ); RJ gave the reason that she spent many months in the Tower. This is true, but we didn't see these months; they were skipped over in the time spent by Rand and co. traveling via Portal Stones.
Basically, any Aes Sedai who was at the Tower before the split, and alligned with the Tower, have to be taken into account. Really, it could be anybody.
Gareth: 2004-12-17
In addition to what Callandor wrote, I would like to point out that Egwene must be quite famous in the WT.
Firstly, when she arrived in the Tower, she was remarked for having the potential to be stronger than any Aes Sedai in centuries, except Nynaeve and maybe Cadsuane.
Secondly: she has run away and be brought back. At least, that was how her going to Falme and coming back has appeared in the eyes of any Aes Sedai but Moiraine, Siuan Sanche Leane Sharrif and Verin Matwin.
Those facts must have occasionned a great deal of comment among Aes Sedai and as a consequence, I think we can assume that a great many of them can recognize her.
scion2: 2005-04-05
I'd say the most obvious choice is Beonin. Not only did she suggest the pla that ended in Egwene's kidnap (CoT 523), she was also put in charge of negotiations with Elaida by Egwene. She probably has the greatest means of all the Aes Sedai that know of Egwene's plans.
Fear: 2006-10-23
I'm thinking that if the BA was involved there would have been a different outcome than leane imprisoned and egwene stuck at novice. Even if they care one way or another if the harbor was ruined. Think about where the orders came from. Elaida had the sisters go to the harbour to wait for the rebels. Elaida rarely gets any information from the ajahs, doesn't even want the negotiations to continue. How did she find out about it then. Beonin is still bound to the oaths, and she said she didn't tell about the chains. It can't be her. BA i'd think would find a more important use for egwene and leane than what happened to them. Nicola seems to be the most logical answer for the previously stated reasons.