1
Tamyrlin: 2004-03-20
RJ has stated the DO would not win, when and if he acquires Rand. And if the DO has had the soul of the Dragon, he must know he didn't win the final victory. So, I agree with your general premise; the DO doesn't escape his prison after the seals are broken. Instead, his influence greatly increases. This has always led me to believe the DO cannot escape his prison, but the influence he can have over the world can increase and swallow the world if given enough time. You bring up an interesting question? Has the hole in the prison been increasing in size, over time, possibly stretching the bounds of the seals? The seals seem to have prevented the DO's direct influence, but do we know they kept the hole from increasing in size? After one or two seals had broken, the DO seemed to have incredible power over the world. In other words, maybe the size of the hole in his prison has increased over these last thousand years, which is why Herid Fel is concerned with the seals. They need to be done away with, and the prison needs to be closed appropriately.
2
charliec: 2004-03-20
Although the DO didn't escape completely during the war of power this may have been because he didn't have the opportunity... there was too much opposition.
It might be possible for him to break free more rapidly if enough power was used to expand the bore... if he could get enough dreadlords together with some serious sa'angreals, but he may never have amassed the resources during the war of power.
He may be keen to keep Rand alive, and turn him so that he can have a go at total escape, or alternatively he may be trying to manipulate Rand (which he seems to be doing pretty well) into channeling too much in the wrong place... Suppose he persuaded Rand to lead an army of channelers to Shayol Ghul for their assault, and they used so much power that they ruptured the pattern (it's already thin there, are the forsaken comment on how it would be madness to channel there).
I think if Rand dies, that's it for this turning of the wheel, he won't be reborn for another age... the pattern won't just spin him out immediately. And if Rand turned to the DO and a final victory was achieved, I'm not sure the DO would retain control of his soul- he's a hero, and bound to the wheel.
I like the idea though!
3
Callandor: 2004-03-20
**It would explain his policy toward Rand as long as he was an ignorant boy he was willing to tolerate him, but as soon as he begins to show some competence and become as actual danger he commands his death.**
But that doesn't follow what has been happening in the books. Rand has had an open policy toward him through the first five books: Use him (best shown by Ishamael), but if you have to or feel the need to, kill him, as per events in TGH (Ishy), TDR(Be'lal and Ishy), TSR(Asmodean), and TFOH(Lanfear, Ravhin, and technically in a way Sammael). In book 6 this changed to the stand still; Rand was gaining power FAST here. So why would the DO call a standstill if he only ignores a farmboy?
4
Unicorn: 2004-03-21
Callandor is right, the DO doesn't tolerate Rand because he is a farmboy.
I think the DO by LoC, sees how little control Rand has, oh yes he is gaining power fast, but the DO is not LOOSING power. Sure the forsaken are seemingly dropping like flies. but at this point Moridin must be somewhere backstage (following RJ's answer to Tamyrlins question of the week), and as Moridin is named Naeblis I would think that the DO would not interfere as unity of his minions could be one of the goals he is trying to achieve. Back to Rand gaining power, I belive the DO feeds off chaos, and Rand is promoting that, not intentionally but he leaves a trail that breaks order down behind him, and the power he is gaining does not as I see it at this point gain him anything in relation to the LB. In a way he still there, unless he conquers no nation will follow him (except the Aiel), his followers are roughtly divided in three.
A.Individuals who for some reason, sometimes taveren sometimes not, has chosen to follow the Dragon, this would be the legion of the dragon, mainly made up of these characters, and a few others some AS, some of the Ashaman, etc.
B. Conquered nations, Tear, Illian, and Cairrhien. They follow of necessity and plot against him more often than not in order to regain control of their nations fro them selves and bring back the good old days so to speak. This plotting may (or may not) be less distinct in Illian.
C. Groups or organisations led by suspected darkfriends. I my mind both Masema and Taim are DF but someone at least are not convinced so I say suspected, It doesn't really matter, both the followers of the Prophet and those of the Black Tower are obviously not Rands to command, and they scare the wits out of everybody they are close to. I am aware that the Legion of the Dragon should have been here but I put it under A for convenience sake.
So this I think shows that Rand has none or little control of groups B and C, and to a certain extend his control of anyone besides the Legion of the Dragon, is very limited. EVERYONE of his “friends” with power has something they just have to do before helping him. Elayne need to secure her throne (alone), Egwene har to unite the Tower, and that puffed up woolhead Rand something and that Dark fellow will just have to wait until they are good and ready!!!!! – I'd go crazy too if I was Rand.
This of course leaves the Aiel, Who has their own goals and I don't think Rand Controls them but they follow him, and where the Aiel go, people start getting scared, heck some might even think that if the Fragon has Aiel allies then siding with the DO is preferable.
So to sum up. Rand is doing the part of Lord of Chaos pretty good., and that way promoting the DO's goals so why bother killing him yet.
As to the core theory, I think no matter what the circumstances the DO would like nothing better than to turn the Dragon. As to balefireing the Dragon back to the light I don't think it would work. The thread of the Dragon would not be burnt back to when he wasn't turned anyway. Killing him in any way would probably do it.
5
Khaos: 2004-03-25
Tamyrlin I have to say I hadn't considered the possibility that the hole may have continued to expand. I think I still favour the idea that it just put a halt to the expansion but either way the DO still has much influence in the world.
Charliec you make a good point about the Dragon's soul being bound to the wheel and therefore immune to DO's grasp. Probably makes more sense then a dark Dragon being balefired.
Now for my rebuttals:
1) I did not mention anything about rand's power. IMO the DO largely ignores the power of those opposing him they are immaterial as there is nothing more powerful than the DO. My point was that as long as Rand was ignorant he was tolerated. In the earlier books the Forsaken were supposed to leave him be killing him was supposed to be final option scenario, Its not until POD/WH that the rules change and they are told to go kill Rand. Why? Not because he is accruing secular power or in the one power the DO can counter raw strength. He shows signs that he is beginning to understand the nature of his task. He figures out how to cleanse the source (successfully by all accounts) somehting the Forsaken had not been able to do. If he figures that out then maybe he can figure out how to re-imrison the DO. Its at this point the DO decides I'll take the risk with the next Dragon off this one.
As for the Dragon's soul only being spun out once an age I think the evidence mainly from things Birgitte and Hawkwing have said counts against this. They say they are spun out whenever the pattern requires them, it doesn't say that they always affect the world in earth shattering ways, but we do know they have lived many lives and that sometimes they opposed each other. One thing that i have always considered we are told about several famed false dragons of the third age, Yurian Stonebow, Raolin Darksbane Guaire Amalsan. I see no reason why these men might not have possessed the Dragon's soul merely not have been fated to be THE Dragon to face the DO.
6
Darren: 2004-03-26
OK... I know this'll be opening old wounds between Callandor and myself, but I've been thinking about Fel's statements on the DO's prison again, in LoC...
He says that unless the Creator made the prison with a hole to begin with, then the prison has to be rebuilt (and says this with heavy sarcasm). He also more than implies that Rand can't be the one to do this (he's not the Creator, you know)...
So if the Creator needs to create the prison again (I side with Fel on who can do it) then doesn't that disprove the notion that the Creator NEVER does anything?
Of course it does.
Now wait, Callandor, I think I know what you're going to say; the Dark One is bound outside the Pattern, and so recreating the prison does not constitute pattern interference. If so, I agree with you.
Nevertheless, it IS action, and if the Creator is out taking a hand doing miracles, then I'm wondering what else might be happening on that day...
A resurrection, perhaps? (could not resist)
7
LameAim: 2004-04-03
Apropos:
*Guide, 'The Age of Legends'*
"Eventually those loyal to the Dark One felt themselves strong enough to act. In a swift strike they made an attempt to free the Dark One completely and take control."
Just so you know.
8
charliec: 2004-04-05
A thought on the Creator taking a hand in history...
The 'religion' or spirituality of Randland- believing in rebirth, believing in a creator and an enemy, and in a pattern- it seems to be more or less 100% accepted, unanimously, everywhere. There are levels of ignorance, but EVERYONE knows and believes the basics, even those who are separated by large geographical barriers (Seanchan and Aiel) which have been in place for thousands of years.
Such a widespread conformity does not tally with a world where there are no acts of the creator to cause such knowledge (not even subtle manipulations rather than mighty signs). For this spirituality to be so widespread and persistant requires some kind of perpetuating effort on the creator's part, especially as there is no semblance of a priesthood in any culture we've met so far.
Another thought (and not 100% relevant to this topic, I apologise... it's an afterthought) for the 'will the wheel stop turning after the Last Battle?' question... in EotW Lan says "Or perhaps it is the end of ages, the end of time itself. The end of the world"... he certainly considers it possible, and he's better informed than most.
9
Oatman: 2004-04-06
All the ppl in randland believe in the creator and the dark one and the pattern because they were all united in the AoL. The whole world was one gigantic culture, all with the same beliefs, than the DO comes and shatters this unity.
Also, correct me if im wrong, but won of the death watch guards has a barbarian helper, and talks about this helper and his nation worshipping a god of some sort, so belief in the patter and creator and dark one is not universal
10
charliec: 2004-04-06
And now for another point in the opposite direction-
Moiraine says "If I didn't know it was impossible, I could almost believe the Creator is taking a hand" EotW
I'd never appreciated before that people in Randland actually thought it was IMPOSSIBLE that the Creator would get involved.
11
Callandor: 2004-04-06
**For this spirituality to be so widespread and persistant requires some kind of perpetuating effort on the creator's part, especially as there is no semblance of a priesthood in any culture we've met so far.**
RJ has answered this before. He said, would you believe in a religon when a person (an Aes Sedai, your "preisthood") could come up to you when you are dying, Heal you, to bring you back from the brink of death, and say it is from a power greater then themselves... would you believe in a religon?
There is no need for "perpetual acts" by the Creator for someone to believe in him; people know there is something other then themselves which is greater, the One Power and by extention the Creator.
12
Khaos: 2004-04-07
As Oatman points out not every culture on that planet believes the same thing merely one continent (The Seanchan originate from Randland). Basically the blight and the landmarks born of the war of power are all within randland and this and not actions by the creator has kept the people cemented in their beliefs. Although there is no priesthood as we would understand it in many ways Aes Sedai and the Whitecloaks are structured and behave in a very similar manner to organised religions of our own experience.
