1
Tamyrlin: 2003-10-09
I don't believe we should discount the supposed Seanchan prophecies. Did the Seanchan who spoke of them have anything to gain by lying about the prophecies? The Athan Miere also have prophecies about the Coramoor, prophecies that were unknown to Rand. The Seanchan have been "controlling" channelers for hundreds of years; there is a likelihood that some of those channelers had the talent of foretelling, and it is very possible that in the past there have been prophetic statements recorded. Does it mean that they will literally come about? I am sure something will happen that will be analogous to the Seanchan prophecy, just like the Athan Miere prophecies will come about.
2
shane: 2003-10-09
I have to agree with Vander on this one. The seanchan prophecies are just too detailed
ie will kneel to the crystal throne most prophecies are so vague that it whould have to read '' and he who rent the world in blood and fire did bend knee to the scion of the Hammer''
They are just too self serving to be real.
3
Vander: 2003-10-09
ill admit that its possilbe that the seanchen prophecies are real, i just dont think so personally. i think it was more along the lines of those got added in somewhere in the past, not that they were actual prophecies, but you never know.
4
Deadsy: 2003-10-09
I agree that it's just messing up the nations, not changing the whole landscape of the world.
I also agree about the Seanchan prophesy. If it was a darkfriend or a forsaken who managed to get it put in there, then they did have something to gain.
5
Korell: 2003-10-09
I always took it that the second breaking was rand breaking the ties of people not the earth it is used as a metaphor thats what i had always belived it to be the breaking happened because all the male AS went insane that i dont belive will happen this time
As for the primary portion of your theory about Rand bowing before the crystal throne i really dont find that all that specific because chances are the only way that will happen is with the e've so it is not exactly that specific and as Tam says they have a high concentration of chanllers chances are they have had a few fortellings over the years
6
Anubis: 2003-10-09
i thought that it was obvious that the seanchan prophesies were just the traditional prophesies rewriten to show the dragon kneeling to the chrystal throne and all. it is mentioned that the randlanders have the prophesies, only in corroupted form... so at one time they were "purified" and the chrystal throne was added in.
7
The Leveler: 2003-10-09
yeah, the seanchan version is great for establishing an empire...if you can get everyone to belive that you are nessecary to win the Last Battle. The Crystal Throne is pretty obviously a binding chair. Since MOST people find themselves wanting to obey, but not all.
8
Callandor: 2003-10-09
**The Crystal Throne is pretty obviously a binding chair. Since MOST people find themselves wanting to obey, but not all**
I believe this is the seventh time I have said this:
It is a ter'angreal that inspires awe to all who see it.
It is said this in the BWB; and yes, to me the Seanchan prophacies were altered by Ishamael when he sent Artur's son across the ocean. The Randland ones are most likely the real ones and only "bind the nine moons to him" not "kneel to the crystal throne".
As said before, the Seanchan ones are WAY too specific.
9
spearmaiden: 2003-10-10
quote:
"The Crystal Throne is pretty obviously a binding chair. Since MOST people find themselves wanting to obey, but not all. "
Really? I don't remember any instances of people not feeling the adoration and wanting to obey. Can you give examples?
10
heronblade: 2003-10-10
i dont think that we can say that because they werent included in mainland prophecy that they arnt vaild. the sea folk prophs included some new stuff to but they turned out right...
11
jaellon: 2003-10-10
I would suggest that the prophecies of the Seanchan are a mixture of 1) the original prophecies, which are common to the mainland prophecies, 2) legitimate prophecy from true Seanchan foretellers, and 3) self-serving fake prophecies.
I think it likely that the Seanchan had their share of foretellers. I also think it likely that some of these foretellings would have been edited or left out if they did not sound promising. On the other side of the coin, there would be those without the foretelling wanting to make a name for themselves and/or wanting to prophecy a glorious future for the Seanchan.
I think it's going to be difficult to sort out fact from fiction in the Seanchan prophecies until the relevant EVENTs have passed (name courtesy of David Eddings :) ).
12
Deadsy: 2003-10-10
I agree that we can't be certain, but the Seanchan prophecies being different isn't the same as the Sea Folk or Aiel Prophecies being different. They don't call their prophecies The Karaethon Cycle, like the Seanchan do. The Sea Folk and Aiel have an entirely different set of prophecies. The Seanchan have the main Dragon prophecies with something added on.
13
kikyo: 2003-10-11
I don't discount the Seanchan prophecies either. Especially because prophecies have a way of meaning something different from what people think they do. I think it is part of the prophecy and it will come true in some form other than the literal.
To me it's like Elaida's foretelling that the royal line of Andor would be the key to winning the last battle. She is convinced that means Elayne. And Elayne may be part of it, but it's clear that what that foretelling really means is Rand, through Tigraine. But you can't know that unless you know who his mother truly was.
So prophecies that seem to mean one thing when taken at face value often mean something very different in reality. I think the Crystal Throne prophecy will come to pass, but not in the way you would expect.
14
jaellon: 2003-10-13
I'm not certain when the Karaethon Cycle was originally foretold, but I seem to remember it being concluded well before the ancestors of the Seanchan set sail from the mainland. Their copies would have been derived from the same source copies as Rand's copies. Since Rand has seen many different copies and translations of the Cycle, and none of them mention kneeling to the Crystal throne, I don't think that prophecy is a part of the Cycle.
However, I don't discount the validity of that foretelling. It could indeed be a true foretelling, but incorrectly added into the text of the Cycle. This could be for any number of reasons. For example, the compilers of the new prophecy, knowing it was valid, could have wanted to give it popular acceptance by mixing it with a document already accepted.
If that is the case, there is nothing to suggest that the Seanchan Nobility or librarians wouldn't have edited the Cycle to their liking, whether they truly understood the meaning of the prophecies or not.
15
DaisharMalkier: 2003-10-14
When it says he will break the world by his coming, The Aiel War anyone?
That's the only new think I can think of not already stated.
16
a dragonburned fool: 2003-10-21
A suggestion about the Seanchan Prophecies:
We know about the Dragon bending knee to the Crystal Throne from Egeanin's PoV, and don't understand the original language of the prophecies. We know there are different translations of the KC; at leats one Hawkwing's Province Governor wrote a translation (motto of one of the books); there is "purified" Luthair's version, probably based on it, where all the obscure old tongue KC stuff finds it's "true" translation (=interpretation|. We know from Moiraine's discussion with Rand, there is place in KC about Dragon binding the Nine Moons, but we don't know the old tongue text about. Probably for a Seanchan reading that text it's obvious that it means bending knee before the throne...
17
Cor Shan: 2003-10-21
One: the binding of The 9moons is real.
The bending knee isn't.
Other Prophs MAY have been written in Seanchan BUT it will take a lot more than that to make me belive any.
18
Murrin: 2003-10-26
When some Seanchan PoVs talk of Rand kneeling to the Crystal Throne, it is clearly stated that not only do the mainland prophecies not include this, but neither did the Karaethon Cycle in Seanchan before Luthair arrived. Whoever it was that thought it, they say that the only 'pure' copy was brought to Seanchan by Luthair - all other copies are corrupt. Of course, we can easily see that this story clearly serves the purposes of whoever was on the Crystal Throne the first time the 'corrections' were made (i.e. one Emperor or another orders all copies altered, then over the next few hundred years, all Seanchan are taught of the 'pure' copy carried by Luthair, causing all future generations to learn the lies as truth)
19
kikyo: 2003-10-30
I like what dragonburned fool said ... that because of different translations and/or different cultures, what translated as binding the nine moons in one place, became bending before the crystal throne in another.
It makes sense that translation and cultural differences would change the prophecies in some ways.
I think that the bending before the Crystal throne thing is in the books for a reason and not because it is a fake. I believe it will come to pass in some form before the end. But like I said before, it may not be in the form we expect.
For example, one far out theory I have is: we know the throne is some kind of ter'angreal, that makes people feel awe near it. Perhaps Rand will be forced by the power of it to bend if he comes near it, or perhaps it has other uses for someone who can channel and that is a way to use it, by kneeling before it. Silly, I know, but it's a good way of explaining what I mean, by the prophecies don't always mean what they seem to on first reading.
20
solomonrex: 2003-10-31
Well, the prophecy says that he will bend knee to it, but it doesn't say who will be sitting on it and it doesn't say when he will bend knee. Bending knee doesn't have to mean anything more significant than the physical act of bending. There may be no one on the throne, there may be Empress Tuon married to Mat, or it may be someone else, for all we know. It's not necessarily a negative thing or a sign that Rand will be 'collared.'
21
Cor Shan: 2003-11-01
Okay then...
I like the idea of having him bend a knee to the Crystal Throne to tie his shoelaces or whatever at Mats wedding, but not serving it...
RJ said that 'No characters are going to visit Seanchan or Shara in the series' Thus NO BENDING KNEE POSSIBLE...
[Off screen bending, It would be too important to be off screen so no]
22
Aiel Finn: 2004-12-07
What about Rand going to his date with the Sad Bracelets. If Tuon comes out of hiding and just by conicience, she becomes empress, then she is the "Crystal Throne". If she then orders Rand freed, Rand would then be bending knee to her most likely just from courtesy. He tries to be nice to monarchs that he isn't planning to kill.
23
Aendur: 2004-12-09
Cor Shan, about RJ's statement: lies! Rand and Aviendha have already been to Seanchan once, when Rand chased her through the snow and, well, got cozy, shall we say? He may have meant they won't go again though, I suppose.
24
Callandor: 2004-12-11
**Cor Shan, about RJ's statement: lies! Rand and Aviendha have already been to Seanchan once, when Rand chased her through the snow and, well, got cozy, shall we say? He may have meant they won't go again though, I suppose.**
No, it was a misquote. The actual one is:
**Q: In a previous statement, I believe you had basically said that the action of the series would take place in the lands known to Rand and his friends, i.e. not Shara or Seanchan, and yet the new book has a lot of stuff about those lands. Have you changed your mind? Is action in either of these two lands a possibility now?
A: No. Except for the possible occasional divergence -- except for Rand's excursions to Seanchan when he chased after Aviendha. I was willing to put as much as I did into the guide because I will not be using those things in the books in the same way that I used Kandor or Saldaea.**
And:
**There are no plans to visit Seanchan in any greater extent than it already has been visited, and there are not going to be any visits to Shara either.**
So, there you have it. No more visits to Seanchan.
25
Aiel Finn: 2004-12-16
Could the Crystal Throne be coming to Randland? The Sanchean call it "The Return" they may actually be planning on returning the seat of government to Hawkwing's domain.
26
joebball1212: 2005-07-18
Well this is what I have to say: I have never heard mention of any PROPHECY that say that he will kneel to the crystal throne. I've heard the Seanchan say things like "He will kneel to the crystal throne, who could stand before it and not be awed by its power and be willed to kneel?" or some such. Didn't Moiraine also say one of the prophecies was to "blind the daughter of the nine moons", which we all know is Tuon who is the Seanchan Princess? I think the Seanchan are just over-confident and over-proud, hence the name the Ever Victorious Army.
27
Ozymandias: 2005-07-18
I've never personally believed in that part of the Seanchan Prophecies. Tamyrlin, the Seanchan had EVERYTHING to gain by putting that in. It already says that Seanchan (the continent) had prophecies; prophecies suspiciously similar to those found in Randland, before the coming of Luthair. Now that I think about it, its almost physically impossible for their Prophecies to be correct. We know that when they left Randland, they had our version of prophecy: there was no crystal throne at that point. We KNOW there were no Aes Sedai to give prophecy on the ships over to Seanchan; the dislike and mistrust of channelers was already instilled in Hawkwings armies, they wouldn't have brought them with them. Therefore the revised prophecy could not have been given onboard. We know that a "corrupted" (or, for us, correct) version already existed in Seanchan when Luthair arrived. And given the mistrust of channelers, there is no way they would be listening to a new prophecy being given to edit the old one (if thats even possible). Adn by tying the savior of the world to the Crytal Throne (aka the Dragon), it makes it seem like the Crystal Throne MUST be there for the world to be saved. It all fits in to the plans of the various Emperors and Empresses perfectly.
28
Callandor: 2005-07-19
**Well this is what I have to say: I have never heard mention of any PROPHECY that say that he will kneel to the crystal throne.**
We haven't been shown the Prophecy the Seanchan believe, true, but every one of them believes that they must take Rand to kneel to the Crystal Throne before the Last Battle, or humanity is doomed.
**TITLE: Path of Daggers, CHAPTER: 23 - Fog of War, Storm of Battle
"The Prophecies of the Dragon had been known in Seanchan even before Luthair Paendrag began the Consolidation. In corrupted form, it was said, much different from the pure version Luthair Paendrag brought. Miraj had seen several volumes of The Karaethon Cycle printed in these lands, and they were corrupted too—not one mentioned him serving the Crystal Throne!—but the Prophecies held men's minds and hearts still. More than a few hoped the Return came soon, that these lands could be reclaimed before Tarmon Gai'don so the Dragon Reborn could win the Last Battle for the glory of the Empress, might she live forever. The Empress surely would want al'Thor sent to her, so she could see what sort of man served her. There would be no difficulty with al'Thor once he had knelt to her. Few easily shook off the awe they felt, kneeling before the Crystal Throne, with the thirst to obey drying their tongues. But it seemed obvious that bundling the fellow onto a ship would be easier if disposing of the Asha'man—they had to be disposed of, certainly—waited until al'Thor was well on his way across the Aryth Ocean to Seandar."
Important to note as Ozy was saying about the chronology here:
1. In Pre-Consolidation Seanchan (before Hawkwing's decendents arrived), the Prophecies of the Dragon were identical to the ones in Randland (IE: Uncorrupted).
2. Hawkwing's decendents came and conquered Seanchan, bringing the changed Prophecies.
3. Now, of course, in Seanchan they are thought of as "pure."
4. It's almost impossible to deny that the change was made by Ishamael, fulfilling his "second doom" since it was he who originally sent Hawkwing's decendents off to Seanchan, as well it fits perfectly with Ishamael loving to make trouble for the Dragon Reborn even many years in planning.
**I think the Seanchan are just over-confident and over-proud, hence the name the Ever Victorious Army.**
They are very proud -- but they've also been dealing with a corrupted from of the Prophecies for a long time.
**It all fits in to the plans of the various Emperors and Empresses perfectly.**
It fits much, much, better as Ishamael's second doom, however.
29
Ishamael: 2005-07-19
Foretelling is a Talent attributed to only channelers...and the channeler in Seanchan are viewed as pets and property...highly unlikely the nation is going to believe some dribble from a Damane...not saying there isn't a damane in Seanchan that has the Foretelling or was a damane with the Talent..just that it would be regarded as meaningless vernacular...the bending knee prophecy is most likely something Ishy started to help spart the Return. The chaos the Seanchan create for Randland is enough reason for him to create such a "prophecy"
30
Traveller: 2005-07-19
I think that the prophecies were changed to be self serving to the Seanchan, but why is it mentioned then? I think it is probably not a coincidence, and that it will be important, either because rand does, or doesn't bend knee. If he doesn't, the Seanchan might be angry and believe it is not him ,so he will have to win them over another way.
I get the impression that this prophecy is not a coincidence and is not just there to be pretty, but will have some standing later.
31
JakOShadows: 2005-07-20
I believe that Ishmael to corrupt the prophecy. And it would seem logical to do that. And I think what makes it the most obvious is that Rand is born in Randland where the prophecy centers around his lands, but the one over there involve him going over there to bow to them when they don't seem to be the focus. It just doesn't seem logical that they're true.
32
Callandor: 2005-07-20
**Foretelling is a Talent attributed to only channelers...and the channeler in Seanchan are viewed as pets and property...highly unlikely the nation is going to believe some dribble from a Damane**
Tuon firmly believes what the damane Lydia told her in what she viewed as a Foretelling. It might or might not be an actual one -- but there's no question that Seanchan society at large believes in the importance of Foretellings.
33
WaterSeeker: 2005-07-20
"1. In Pre-Consolidation Seanchan (before Hawkwing's decendents arrived), the Prophecies of the Dragon were identical to the ones in Randland (IE: Uncorrupted)."
this does not mean they were identical from the Randland Prophecies just that they were different from what is thought of as pure.
As for the Prophecies that Luthair Paendrag brought they may have been the same as the Randland Prophecies but over time have merged with the Seanchan Prophecies (which they still think of as pure) so even if they had a look at the Prophecies that Luthair had they would see them as corrupted too.
No matter how powerful a ruler it would be impossable to make the people fully ignore the prophecies that they had for generations. For example most of the Randlanders know some version of the dragon reborn taking the sword from the Stone of Tear. I can't imagine anyway that this could have been erased.
So even if Luthair thought the prophecies were corrupted if the people had at least some knowlage of them such as this "crystal throne" it would have eventualy become part of Luthair's prophecies also (a thousand years is a long time)
As for what was said about "highly unlikely the nation is going to believe some dribble from a Damane" we have the incident with Tuon to show they do take them seriously not to mention the importance of Omens and the like to this nation.
34
The Philosopher: 2006-02-28
Indeed. We only know Tuon as one of the High Blood due to her mislike of a prophacy that paned out to be true. The Seanchan do have Fortellers of their own, and it should not be forgotten that before the Seanchan consolidated the continent with the aid of the a'dam, there were Aes Sedi- or at very least channelers- in that area of the world. Given a giant event such as a secong Breaking, or a specified rebirth, or the LAST flaming BATTLE, many would have Foreseen it, as we have been shown, the world over.
And tell me. How does one best bind someone into service? We have seen many different methods already, ranging from Rand's TYPICAL imperious commands to Moiraine's influence by submission. Yes, in all likelihood it will be by some intercession by the Prince of Ravens (Mat) that will allow for the binding of the Nine Moons, but RAND still must be the one to bind them. What better way than to serve her? It fills both sets of the Prophacies, and just as importantly, gets good diplomacy in. We have seen that Rand trys his very best to get the best possible treatment for those that he rules, and we have seen that the Seanchan govern well, justly and fairly, if not always kindly. Just as Rand trys to do.
35
JakOShadows: 2006-02-28
Well, I wouldn't call chaing all aes sedai and using them as slaves and tools in battle very just. Yes, to people they think are deserving to their respect, their due respect given. But the bar is set very high for most people, it is like the caste system in India. For example, I don't think what happened with Rand in the first three books would have been remotely possible with the Seanchan societal system. So while they don't break their own rules, it is very restricting to certain people. But I agree with you that overall they can have a good disposition if they want, and Tuon far better than Suroth or other people like her. So I believe an agreement can be worked out.
36
Ishamael666: 2006-03-01
Quick note about the Prophecies (both in Randland and in Seanchan)-
Not many people know them, except nobles. Most of the common people, for most of the 3rd Age, believed that the Dragon was the next thing to the Dark One.
37
arcaneix: 2006-03-01
i really think that the seachean vers of the kc is propaganda.i think ishy had something to do with it too.maybe even the ravens as a sigil and their apparent lack of trollocs in that side of the world.hes been grooming that society for a long time.
38
Duram Laddel Cham: 2006-03-02
**i also dont think that there will be a second breaking of the world. the KC says that "he will break the world again by his coming, tearing apart all ties that bind." **
Could the "ties that bind" refer to the Darkfriends ties to the DO?
