nakes and Foxes
by Someshta: 2003-07-18 | Not yet rated
In TSR, Birgitte tells Perrin the only way to win in "snakes and foxes" is to break the rules. We have all associated that game with the Finns, right? So, what are the rules for Finnland?
Everyone addresses the blatant ones (torches, iron, instruments of music), but what about what Moiraine tells Egwene, and Elayne and Nynaeve; "No one may step through more than once. Only once. You may ask three questions, but you must ask all three and hear the answers before you may leave. Frivolous questions are punished, it seems, but it also seems what may be serious for one can be frivolous coming from another. Most importantly, questions touching the Shadow have dire consequences."
So, assuming that Moiraine is still in Finnland, maybe it wouldn't need to be a bunch of people bringing in all sorts of junk. Too unrealistic. What if somebody entered Finnland accidently, and not knowing that they had to answer questions or anything, didn't. Or they turned to leave, which the Finns probably wouldn't like. So, in true-wierdo-Finn-sniffing fashion, they said, "Here take this women, just stay and ask..." That also is not very likely, but its a change from the tired old theory.
Along the lines of that theory though, remember when Mat and Olver are playing Snakes and Foxes? "Courage to strengthen (Maybe because the finns feed off memories, courage WOULD strengthen them??), fire to blind (that's why no torches, and they have those glow-orb-things), music to dazzle (maybe music would signal something, like the giant-bell-sounds), and iron to bind (notice, everyone, that daggers don't bind, like you think? Maybe, it is some kind of chain?)
Representation?: As Mat struggled under the Snakes grasp as the place was falling down, he said their fingers held like "IRON". (concidence)?
Random thoughts on this: the wavy line is for snake (duh), and the triangle can kinda look like a fox face. And also not being able to win at snakes and foxes unless you cheat might be a representation that you can't beat the finns, (unless you find a way to cheat or something like that.)
Anyone else think that the foxes on the podiums had similar hairstyles to the Seanchean?
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1
Tamyrlin: 2003-07-25
Someshta, thanks for avoiding the pitfall of the "scooby gang rescue" mentality. One last time people, it is not going to happen. I like how you point out the iron is to bind, not to kill, which would be the only purpose of a dagger. How can iron bind the Snakes? If iron touches them are they unable to move, is that how you can trap your "companion" that comes to take you to the general chamber? They are very afraid of the One Power, but doesn't Moiraine say that the OP acts strangely there? Now, the ter'angreal works only once, but it would seem that finnland is accessible from T'A'R, but I wonder how they would treat you, probably not according to the pact that was made. When it says music to dazzle, I wonder if it either puts them in a trance or stuns them?
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Callandor: 2003-07-25
Interesting thought came up on another thread about iron shackles being used to chain groups together, but groups don't work with me personally (a al Tear doorway with Rand, Mat, and Moiraine all in the same time and none saw each other).
Music would stun them I would think. Fire holds them at bay it seems. Courage... who knows? Strengthens your risolve, the memories, the more questions or wishes you get.
It is a change from the theory, but totally unlikely to me. Bribe people with a woman? Thats one weird place :p.
Another thing I've always wondered about rescue missions is the Finn speak the Old Tongue and few do in this day and age. Rand had a translator provided, and Moiraine it seems could understnad enough I believe. Mat obviously understood it ;).
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Lewin: 2003-07-26
Concerning the ideas about not being able to enter finnland more then once or in a group I would just like to point out once more that we don't know how the Tower of Ghenji works. It might be possible using it.
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Jiana: 2003-07-26
"Scooby gang rescue"... that's classic.
If anyone goes into the ToG to do a rescue mission, it's only going to be one person. If the "several people at once" theory continues, before we know it we will have the entire cast of characters going to the ToG. :)
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Rand-althor: 2003-07-27
I agree with the one person theory. The Mat viewing seems to be related to Thom saving moiraine, but it doesn't say he helps. I believe that Mat will be in a especially dangerous point, when Thom runs off to save Moiraine, and Mat's survival depends on if Thom saves Moir in time.
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juitzhead: 2003-07-27
reading this thread, i went looking for references and here is a passage i found from WH.
"After a little searching through the city, he finally located a bellfounder. There were a number of gongmakers in Ebou Dar, but only one bellmaker, with a foundry outside the western wall. The bellmaker, a cadaverous, impatient fellow, sweated in the heat of his huge iron furnace. The sweltering foundry's one long room might have been some sort of torture chamber. Hoisting chains dangled from the rafters, and sudden flames gouted from the furnace, throwing flickering shadows and leaving Mat half-blind. And no sooner would he blink away the afterimage of raging fire than another eruption would leave him squinting again. Workmen dripping with sweat poured molten bronze from the furnace's melting pot into a square mold, half again as tall as a man, that had been levered into position on rollers. Other great molds like it stood around the stone floor, amid a litter of smaller molds in various sizes."
note that we see, fire, light, iron. Can a bell be considered a musical instrument? So what goes into making a cannon? all of the above (inc the bell founder).
Perhaps you do not need to literally take all of the items into Finnland but use these 'ingredients' to make something i.e. a cannon or weapon or even an iron bell.
so does mat wheel a cannon to the TOG and threaten the finn at cannonpoint? Its a bit outthere but i think it warrants a mention.
or he could possibly wheel an iron stove in there and cook the finn meal whilst thom plays a tune.
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juitzhead: 2003-07-27
im actually gonna tell myself that i dont make any sense. A bell? what was i thinking? ~shakes head~
"I don't know." The line tickled something in the back of his head, but he could not bring it up. The old
memories from the ter'angreal might as well have been chosen at random—they probably had been—and there
were all those gaps in his own, all those fuzzy places. The boy was always asking questions he did not know the answer to, usually beginning with "why." - LOC Ch33, Courage to Strengthen"
anyway, i think that mat knows what the saying means and the memories need to be shaken loose.
As for what to take, it is believed that the fire will come from fireworks.
Dont know about the music - Thom or a bell? (although the bells tolled when he was asking questions and they didnt do the finn any harm)
Iron - knives or perhaps the ashendarei. I would like to see Mat use the ashandarei on the finn. (or perhaps the gholam).
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Jiana: 2003-07-27
I think that was a great bit of sleuthing, juitzhead. Maybe all that the one person (whoever it ends up being) needs to take to confuse or cheat the Snakes and Foxes would be a bell... But then where does the light come into play? A reflection off of the bell perhaps?
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Someshta: 2003-07-28
I see were your going on that canon or bell thing. Remember how Finnland seemed like it was coming apart when Mat was asking the questions in Tear? There was a bell tolling then.
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Pendragon: 2003-07-28
Okay, I'm starting to get tired of this entire ordeal. This thread, and the other thread, have played every scenerio, most of which don't have any merit. So, like all of my other posts, my theories will be without any semblance on fact or research, and as with most of the other posts, without merit.
1. Like the Tam said, Mat, Rand, and Moiraine where all in at the same time, and none had seen each other. So, it is highly improbable that if they go in individually they will be able to do anything. That is why they need the chain, to bind them. If they go in chained together, the terangreal can't send them to different parts of Finnland.
2. Now, the next problem is why would Moiraine still be in there where Lanfear died. Simple: Lanfear had already been in that doorway. You can only go in once, and the second time means death. Now, Moiraine was able to get away with it because she had never been in that doorway before, but she might have been channeling when she went in, which means they cut the bond with her warder and shut her off from the source. They don't like the OP, so Moiraine got punished.
3. How does Thom find out she is in there. Well, this scenerio won't happen for quite sometime. He doesn't know about doorway in the Stone, so that is out of the question. The other doorway ended up in the White Tower (if I remember correctly, someone help out, as usual). So, Moiraine not going to get found until
A. White Tower is merged with rebels
B. White Tower is merged with Black Tower
C. Seanchen war is over, since Thom is with Mat
Now after all this is said and done, I'm guessing in the second to last book, Thom questions Egwene about where the doorway is, gets drunk (this is just something of my own working, he could be sober, but doubtful), breaks into the tower, and goes into the doorway to ask the Finn some questions. He finds out about Moiraine. He gathers the 'scooby gang' and they go through the Tear doorway.
4. Mat will NOT save Moiraine. He has been through both doorways, he will die if he goes into another one. So, here comes Olver. Mat teaches Olver how to win at Snakes and Foxes and sends him in with Thom, Nynaeve, and Lan. My group is different and I don't care. I don't know how they get here out; once again, I don't care.
5. Mat will not lose his eye for 'half the light of the world'. He loses it in battle somehow. Once again, I don't know how and I don't care.
6. Wouldn't it be cool if Moiraine wasn't a prisoner but a researcher or something and she was never in danger in the first place. Just a thought.
7. RJ is one cracked out man. Who would be able to think of all this and still be sane.
So there you have it. Unorthodox, unintelligent, semi-factual, piece of Trolloc dung theory by Pendragon. Feel free to talk amongst yourselves.
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Callandor: 2003-07-28
1. We do know that if you try to go through the same doorway again, you just jump through the other side. You don't die.
2. We don't know weather Lanfear was killed in Finnland or she was killed leaving, or killed afterwards.
3. The Rhuidean doorway melted after Moiraine and Lanfear went through, presumably due to lots of saidar being used or held while going though (we don't know for sure).
My vote is for Thom to go by himself, most likely through the Tower of Genjei (but we can only speculate, if strongly, that you can go through in the RW). If not, then it most likely won't happen in the time alotted, or they need to do so Traveling to Tear.
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ranman38: 2003-07-28
Thom alone goes, but Mat helps in some fashion. And who better to know about or remember or reason out the snakes and foxes and the tower of g than a gleeman!?
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Jiana: 2003-07-29
Just another bit of occult information: Music is needed to "cheat" because, as was stated before in this thread or another, the finns are not the DO's evil, but another sort of evil. So to me, they are like demons. Now, music--any sort of music--supposedly can dazzle a spirit or a demon, because they get caught up in the rythms. By the way, I wasn't going much of anywhere with this, it was just something I thought of...
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Ashaman Ragsdale: 2003-07-29
I'm going to avoid the whole rescue mission part! This is more about winning at Snakes and Foxes. Ok we all know that to win at Snakes and Foxes you need to cheat, well what if ther is a way to win with out cheating. I think there is, and Olver will find out how. Why do I think this?...
(WH ch30)
"You were less likely to lose what you kept on your person, and Olver had lost already lost more in ten years than most people did in a lifetime. But he still believed you could win at Snakes and Foxes without breaking the rules, too."
Then later a few sentences more...
"Unfortunately, Beslan was another who seemed to think you could win at Snakes and Foxes."
Who knows (except RJ), but I don't think that he would mention it might be possible if it's not!
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Ashaman Ragsdale: 2003-07-29
I think I didn't mention that I think Olver will find a way to win without cheating! Either way let me know what you think!
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golem22: 2003-07-29
I dont know why i have this idea but i seem to think that after lanfear and morraine went through the dorrway it melted as a result of a battle fought on the other side...
The reason for this beliefe is even though the finns are described as being alien i dont see how they could like the forsaken any more than anyone else. This is supported by the unproven fact that any questions regarding the dark one had dire consequences. (unproven because noone has actualy asked questions regarding the DO).
The result possibly being that lanfear was killed and stripped of some of her power as a result and mooraine captured.
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Callandor: 2003-07-30
Mat, Rand, and Moiraine all went through the Tear doorway, they didnt see each other at all. Because of that there should be no way a battle could be fought on the other side of the doorway: Moiraine and Lanfear would be seperated in the Finn world.
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juitzhead: 2003-07-30
Mat, rand and mori went in at different times. That's why they didnt see each other. They were in there at the same time but they could have been speaking to diff set of finn's. There is nothing to suggest that going in together will separate you.
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Rhodric: 2003-07-30
Moir and Lanfr are separated, but what powers do the finn have? i thought that was golem's point, the finn fought, caught (held) and killed lanfear. Moiraine was probably just fought and caught, since she has not sold her soul to the shadow, IMO.
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imfunny81: 2003-07-30
Pendragon
"1. Like the Tam said, Mat, Rand, and Moiraine where all in at the same time, and none had seen each other. So, etc...."
ter'angreal was destroyed, so that is clearly not how they are going to get there... that's where the tower of ghenjei comes in...
"2. Now, the next problem is why would Moiraine still be in there where Lanfear died. Simple: etc..."
clearly, lanfear defies the whole things having to do with the DO thing, so it's no surprise she was killed... also, as Callandor said, you don't die if you try to go through a second time, you just can't go in...
"3. How does Thom find out she is in there. Well, this scenerio won't happen for quite sometime...etc."
the doorway ter'angreal that Mo entered is destroyed! so it has to be the ToG
I would answer the rest of the wild claims here, but i think the fact that the doorway ter'angreal that Mo went into is destroyed basically eliminates any of the rest of the 'theory' here...
On another note,
the iron shackles idea is interesting, esp with the connection to 'iron to bind'... but i'm still convinced that Aludra's firesticks, wielded by Mat, is fire and Thom is music... my gut feeling is that Olver is still courage...
and the reason that the 'scooby gang' theory is more likely than the one person theory is that my impression of the event of entering the ToG is that it is completely accidental and since we have no reason to believe that the 'everyone gets separated' situation of the ter'angreal is also true of the ToG, I think it's possible for 3 or 4 ppl to mistakingly enter it together... and no one person seems to really be connected with all four aspects of the chant...
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Pendragon: 2003-08-01
Hey, wild claims are what my theories are based on. That is why I ask for assistance from others. To everyone who posted after me, thank you. It gives me a chance to revise my 'theory.'
I'm not going to post another wild theory, however. I'm going to ask some questions and make some points.
#1. In LoC, Olver is playing the game and to start the game he makes a sign of a triangle with a wavy line through it. What significance does this pose?
#2. Since everyone is so hell bent on Mat helping to save Moiraine, and since everyone has reminded me that you go right back out if you go through the doorway, ToG is the way to go. So my question, how far is the Mat/Tuon crew from it? We might get soemthing pretty soon into the next book if they are anywhere close to it. Just a thought.
#3. In WH, Cyndane says she was weaker after the Aelfinn and Eelfinns held her. That phrase just states that they held her; not that they decreased her power or they killed her. They HELD her. If anyone has any other evidence, say so now, because all the theories about decreasing power and death and all that are unfounded. Boo-ya!
#4. Everyone keeps talking about how they will save Moiraine, about how they have to cheat and all that, but nothing about how they find out she is alive. I said this on my last post. Everyone, INCLUDING Thom, thinks she is dead. Not a dang thing is going to happen until they find out she is alive, not one dang thing.
#5. I am going to agree with Callandor. Everyone went in at different times, through both doorways. I don't think anyone could be split up, but I guess it doesn't matter since they have to get into the ToG.
#6. What powers do the Finns have? I mean, as soon as Moiraine and Lanfear went through the doorway, Lan felt his bond cut. And Lanfear/Cyndane said she was held by the Finns. So, the Finns have got to have some massive power. But we know Finnland isn't like a stedding, since Rand was able to channel. But how and the heck did they capture Lanfear and Moiraine and cut Moiraine's bond without killing her. Massive power.
And that's another edition of Pendragon speaks. Enjoy.
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Callandor: 2003-08-01
**#1. In LoC, Olver is playing the game and to start the game he makes a sign of a triangle with a wavy line through it. What significance does this pose?**
The Tear doorway had the wavey lines running up its sides (the Snakes), and the Rhuidean doorway had the triangles running up its sides (the Foxes). This gives the name its title and hints and a world/s where they both exist (named Finnland by readers).
**#2. Since everyone is so hell bent on Mat helping to save Moiraine, and since everyone has reminded me that you go right back out if you go through the doorway, ToG is the way to go. So my question, how far is the Mat/Tuon crew from it? We might get soemthing pretty soon into the next book if they are anywhere close to it. Just a thought.**
Mat and co are about 400-600 miles away from the Tower of Genjei (I think thats what Weird Harold said and he's great at distences :)).
**#3. In WH, Cyndane says she was weaker after the Aelfinn and Eelfinns held her. That phrase just states that they held her; not that they decreased her power or they killed her. They HELD her. If anyone has any other evidence, say so now, because all the theories about decreasing power and death and all that are unfounded. Boo-ya!**
As far as I know, most people believe she was stilled upon entry into Finnland, and then restored to the Power at some later state.
**#4. Everyone keeps talking about how they will save Moiraine, about how they have to cheat and all that, but nothing about how they find out she is alive. I said this on my last post. Everyone, INCLUDING Thom, thinks she is dead. Not a dang thing is going to happen until they find out she is alive, not one dang thing.**
Does Thom think she's dead, or just that he left her?
**#5. I am going to agree with Callandor. Everyone went in at different times, through both doorways. I don't think anyone could be split up, but I guess it doesn't matter since they have to get into the ToG.**
Juitzhead said this, not me. I said that they were split up upon going in.
**#6. What powers do the Finns have? I mean, as soon as Moiraine and Lanfear went through the doorway, Lan felt his bond cut. And Lanfear/Cyndane said she was held by the Finns. So, the Finns have got to have some massive power. But we know Finnland isn't like a stedding, since Rand was able to channel. But how and the heck did they capture Lanfear and Moiraine and cut Moiraine's bond without killing her. Massive power.**
Finnland is in TAR, the Finn are simply: the ultimate masters of TAR control. Also, again, Lanfear is generally accepted to have been stilled going through the doorway (for the very simple reason of drawing every possible part of saidar she could through an angreal, and then having that angreal taken away from her without having time to loose hold of saidar). So, its not that Lanfear was going channeling crazy to get out of Finnland. Moiraine, however, could've done this, but if she forgot to ask for a way out... trouble.
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Shadow Bane: 2003-08-01
"Finnland is in TAR, the Finn are simply: the ultimate masters of TAR control." - Callandor
When i read that a thought occured to me. Lanfear used to boast that she was master of T'A'R right? that it was hers? Well maybe when she met the real owners they didnt like that much...
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Vander: 2003-10-03
just a note, daggers and mat's asherandei have nothing to do w/ the iron to bind, they are steel, even if it is powerwrought in the case of his spear, and they finns didnt care a bit about it when mat had his daggers there before.
and where are you comming from saying that finnland is in TAR? i never got that impression, though i could have missed something...
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Callandor: 2003-10-03
**and where are you comming from saying that finnland is in TAR?**
From when Birgitte talked to Perrin about the Finnland lying through the ToG in the Wolf Dream (TAR), being harder to escape from them in TAR than in the Real World, and the description of both worlds of the Finn from Mat's PoV, we assume the ToG is a doorway/access into the Finnland similar to the red doors; hence they reside in TAR..
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Deadsy: 2003-10-03
“#6. What powers do the Finns have? I mean, as soon as Moiraine and Lanfear went through the doorway, Lan felt his bond cut.”
Not sure how important it is, but the bond wasn't cut right when they fell in. Lan tried chasing after her into the doorway and was held by Rand. Then there was lots of fire and Rand kept trying to put it out. Not until Rand saw the doorway melt did Lan say that he couldn't feel her. So I think it was just the doorway melting that caused the bond to break. There isn't really any other example of a place with a small amount of entrances and exits to show how the bond works. There are other exits out of Finnland but if the bond is like a string through the doorway it couldn't just shift over to the Tear exit or ToG and find Lan.
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Kylin Taimar: 2005-08-30
Of course there are other interpretations to all of this. Without offering who, why or how, let me propose one person rescuing Moraine through the ToG. Let us start with Courage to Strengthen: One would have to be courageous enough to deal with the Finns, especially if you planned to cheat them out of something. Fire to blind would be the next part: say you approached them brandishing a torch, so that they could not identify you. Why would you do that? Very hard to exact punishment on those you can not identify them. Music to daze, or lull may be the case, you might even say hypnotize. Like a snake charmer, music is used to put the animal at ease; if you upset that you can bet that the snake will strike quickly. Iron to bind is the last part, and can be interpreted in two ways, literal and figurative. You can bind the Finns in manacles of iron, though I wonder about this. I don't figure it would be easy to bind all the Finns in the room with iron manacles, even lulled as they might be. Or you might interpret it as binding them to an agreement. The fear or threat of iron may allow you to get them to agree to something they may not normally allow, like leaving with something without paying for it, or getting an extra question answered.
I don't believe anyone has mentioned that Mat got more information from the snakes through the doorway in Tear than they would normally give. It was if the strain of having all three people (or possibly two very strong ta'veren in the same place) bound them to answer more while trying to get Mat, Moraine, and Rand to leave.
Two other side notes about this; First, I believe Moraine, may have left Thom with some clues as to what happened to her, her feelings and somewhat of a riddle. Remember, Moraine has more knowledge of the future than most. She asked her three questions in the doorway in Tear, she passed the test of the three rings to become Aes Sedai (which may have given her a glimpse of what might be), and most importantly, she went through the glass columns in Rhuidean. Like Aviendha, she knows some things are “likely” to come true, and some of the possible consequences of her actions. When she took on Lanfear, she might not have known exactly what she was doing, but knew that what she did was absolutely necessary. I think she's given Thom the clues he needs to figure out what happened to her, he just hasn't figured it out yet.
As for number two, it's all about Olver. I believe he is Gaidal Cain, but that is not the point. It's about Snakes and Foxes, and how to win. So far we've seen so many people do the impossible, I'm surprised people don't give more credit to Olver. He ‘believes' there is a way to win without cheating and he's determined to find it, and I do believe he will. It's all about asking the right questions. That's exactly what he has to do when he goes in, to beat them at their own game, he must ask questions that allow him to leave with what he asked for and without having to pay for it. I am just going way out on a limb with this next statement. I think he will find a way to be with Birgitte as he was meant to be, and thus restoring the both of them to being Heroes of the Horn.
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JakOShadows: 2005-09-01
Kyle: I liked everything about what you said besides everything pertaining to Olver being Gadal Cain. But I do think Olver might figure it out given all the hints RJ has dropped, but he has never been through the doorway before so it makes it less likely. I see it more as Olver inspires Mat to figure out how to beat the finns. And I do think Mat will have to be there, because it seems like they gravitate back to each other throughout the books. It leads me to believe that they have some purpose to serve together. But I do like your complete explanation as to how it would work, not just what it might symbolize.
