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hree score and ten years ago....
by Ellistann: 2003-11-14 | Not yet rated
Previous Categories: Verin - Motivations and Plans
What in the name of the Creator happened 70 (or now that its a new year 71) years ago?!?
I haven't read the BWB in a long time otherwise this theory would be a little more fleshed out, but RJ mentioned 70 years ago too many times in the series to simply put it as coincidence.
"So. Moiraine dead, Siuan dead, the White Tower broken, and Rand possibly on the edge of madness. Verin tensed irritably. If you took risks, sometimes the bill came due when you least expected, in the last way you expected. Almost seventy years, of delicate work on her part, and now it might all go for naught because of one young man. Even so, she had lived too long, been through too much, to allow herself to be dismayed. First things first; take care of what can be done now before worrying too long over what might never be. That lesson had been forced on her, but she had taken it to heart."
#1: Verin curses Rand for messing up a carefully laid 70 year old plan. ( or something to that effect.) As an added bonus, this plan doesn't involve him or the last battle, because she told Moiraine her first clue Rand was reborn was twenty years ago.
#2. Setalle Anan brings Nynaeve and Elayne to the Knitting Circle. Setalle leaves them there, Elayne and Nyna do their song and dance, get tossed out and the Knitting Circle discusses what just happened.
One of them says Settle Ann should be punished for bringing them there like that. Another fires back "Setalle Anan could have blown the wistle a long time ago" Then someone else squeaks "Setalle Anan ?!? Is she crazy? Even after 70 years the tower would still make her crawl."
Setalle Anan is the "One who is No Longer" I believe. The Wise ones tell Rand (thru Avienda) about the Bowl of the Winds. "If the right hands find it, they will also find a treasure worth as much as the bowl. If the wrong hands find it the world is doomed. The key to finding the bowl is 'The One who is No Longer'" Rand asks," No longer, no longer what? you mean dead?" And Avienda avoids the issue.
I can't be 100%, not without the BWB, but Setalle Anan is TOWINL and what she is no longer is Amyrlin. Do me a favor and check this out. But I believe is that Setalle got deposed and it started Verin's plan.
#3 Verin goes to Far madding and has to use a fake name. Apparently she got arrested birched and exiled. But the key is; she got caught 71 years ago. She muses in the same section that it had been 71 years since she has made a serious mistake.
I think that Verin's mistake caused Setalle Anan's fall from power or vice versa.
There is a military saying about coincidences.
Something happens once: Happenstance.
Something Happens twice: coincidence.
Something happens three times: Enemy Action.
But of course I could be over analysing these books, and lord knows who among us hasn't done that.
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2003-11-17
This is a good theory to bring back out to be discussed. Verin talks about using compulsion and having it backfire on her, or I thought her talk of a mistake in her past had to do with compulsion. I haven't studied it out, but I have seen some good ideas. So, not much to say, but I look forward to the ideas.
Zaela Sedai: 2003-11-17
I definately believe that Setalle Anan was an AS or even Amyrlin. She has obviously been around a very long time and knows much about WT ways. The question is
1) What happened for her to be severed
2) What purpose did she find to keep her alive for so long?
70 years ago would me that she is actually Kirin Melway of the BrA, but she served from 922NE-950NE so that can't be her unless the mistake was made 70 years ago but nothing was done until 50 years ago. It doesn't fit.
Another possibility is that she is Aleis Romlin of the GA, she served from 890NE-922NE, but that puts us past 71 years.
So, either she was one of these people, or she was someone else completely and the WT records hve been changed or erased to cover it up.
Is it possibale that she may have been a Keeper? She still would have had access to many things and have the potential to be very powerful behind the scenes. (Alviarin)
We need more info on Setalle's past to figure out what happened.
As to Verin, I definately think she is closely tied to Setalle's fate, I just don't know how.
Whatever the case, if Setalle was AS we know she has a strong purpose for staying alive and will be crucial to this series.
I know I have posed more questions than answers, but does anyone have any thoughts?
WinespringBrother: 2003-11-17
We know that Setalle was not able to use the a'dam, unlike Siuan who was able to (before being healed of stilling), so we know that Setalle was not stilled. She could have been burned out, which produces a different effect.
The timeline connecting the two is intriguing, but inconclusive thus far. Setalle has shown knowledge of Tower initiates, and has connections with the Kin, but nothing to indicate a direct connection with Verin, though there is nothing to eliminate a connection either.
IIRC, Garenia/Zarya can be connected to the seventy year timing also, when she ran away from the Tower that is.
As for Verin's mistake, it could be related to the scar that she showed Egwene, during their discussion of tel'aran'rhiod.
Sensir: 2003-11-17
perhaps setalle wasnt aes sedai... maybe not strong enough?? and she burned herself out or maybe she was someone of no importance who got blamed for verins fault. verin would not hesitate to throw off blame.
Dorindha: 2003-11-17
When an a'dam is used by a woman who can't channel, nothing happens, we have seen what happens with Siuan what happens when it is used by a severed channeller (I think she could feel Moggy, but not affect her), but when Setalle Anan sed it, the AS in the a'dam had a lot of pain (I can't remember if Setalle did too). This certainly implies that there was some connection between her and the source and by process of elimination, means that either she is a burned out channeller or (thinking on my feet here) she can channel saidin as that is known to cause pain as a male channeller cannot enter that link.
I'm not going to say any more about saidin, cos I think Halima is unique in that respect, but you never know! This means Setalle is a burned out chaneller. I also think that in the tower she is known as Setalle Anan, even though Anan is her husband's name, as I believe the quote is something like "that was Setalle Anan... even after all these years, the tower would...".
This is a bit rambly, but I hope it adds something. The "one who is no longer" part I believe refers to not being able to channel any more, as I don't think there is enough evidence to do anythingelse but wildly speculate :).
I know I've not said anything about Verin...but I can't think how it might tie up.
Cor Shan: 2003-11-17
Setalle Anan is/was burned out. She /was/ Aes Sedia. The Last Aymerlyn to be stripped of stole and staff was Berowin (Artur Hawkwings day), and before that was Terowin, both of the Red Ajah. There has been no Amyrlin with the name Towinl but the closest name is Tamera Ospenya, 973-979...929 is the year of all of this stuff and the Amyrlin was.... Kirin Melway, once of the Brown Ajah, raised in 922 and died/stepped down in 950. (Can an Amyrlin step down? I think not because 'you cannot refuse becoming Amyrlin any more than you can refuse a punishment.')
Callandor: 2003-11-17
**I can't be 100%, not without the BWB, but Setalle Anan is TOWINL and what she is no longer is Amyrlin.**
No way was she Amyrlin.
**TITLE: Path of Daggers, CHAPTER: 2 - Unweaving
The older Green nodded, flipping her reins idly against the palm of her riding glove. "Martine Janata also knew what she was doing, so I understand," she said casually. "She was the last sister to really make a business of studying ter'angreal. She did it for over forty years, almost from the time she reached the shawl. She was careful, too, so I was told. Then one day, Martine's maid found her unconscious on the floor of her sitting room. Burned out." Even in a conversational tone, those words were a sharp slap. Vandene's voice did not alter a hair, though. "Her Warder was dead from the shock. Not unusual in cases like that. When Martine came to, three days later, she couldn't recall what she had been working with. She couldn't remember the preceding week at all. That was more than twenty-five years ago, and no one since has had the nerve to touch any of the ter'angreal that were in her rooms. Her notes mentioned every last one, and everything she had discovered was innocuous, innocent, even frivolous, but. . . ." Vandene shrugged. "She found something she wasn't expecting."
Vandene grimaced. She might have been the one to bring up Martine, but Aes Sedai did not like talking about women who had been burned out or stilled. They did not like remembering them. "She vanished once she was well enough to slip out of the Tower," she said hurriedly. "The important thing to remember is that she was cautious. I never met her, but I've been told she treated every ter'angreal as if she had no idea what it might do next, even the one that makes the cloth for Warders' cloaks, and nobody has ever been able to make that do anything else. She was careful, and it did her no good."**
spearmaiden: 2003-11-18
Cor Shan,
You said:
"There has been no Amyrlin with the name Towinl but the closest name is Tamera Ospenya,"
TOWINL = The One Who Is No Longer
I thought Ellistann was referring to a name at first, too, but he/she wasn't.
Callandor indirectly raised a good question:
I started to reply to him that Setalle couldn't be Martine because Martine was burnt out "over 25 years ago" not 70 as is implied by the Kin woman's statement. But then I remembered that there is other evidence for Setalle being burnt out more recently than 70 years, and that is that her oldest child is just over 20, right? There is no way that Setalle could have been of childbearing age 20 years ago if she was burnt out 70 years ago.
So, it would seem that whatever happened that the Tower would flay her for after 70 years to has nothing to do with whatever got Setalle burnt out, since she was apparently burnt out much more recently than that to be of childbearing age at the right time.
If Setalle is Martine, then she wasn't put out of the Tower for whatever happened 70 years ago, because Martine was still around testing Ter'angreal just over 25 years ago. If she's not Martine, then she could have been sent out of the Tower 70 years ago and then burnt herself out 45 years down the road, but that doens't seem as likely to me.
So why would they flay her now for something they didn't put her out of the Tower for in the first place?
That doesn't get us any closer to figuring out what happened 70 years ago, but it's quite curious.
Dorindha: 2003-11-18
this still doesn't take into account that Garenia (or whoever it was) implies that "Setalle Anan" was known as "setalle Anan" 70 years ago, which is what it the main obstacle for me in thinking that she changed her name.
I already mentioned that she could have easily changed her name (and Anan is her married name, unless her husband changed it) but she was still known as Setalle Anan in the tower when Garenia (or whoever) was there, 70 years ago.
SauceyBlueConfetti: 2003-11-18
I think everyone is confused about Setalle Anan and the comment about "seventy years"...there is no reference to being flayed or punished...the quote is from one of the Kin: Garenia (aka Zarya)is a runaway from the tower seventy years prior. the quote is: "Setalle!" Garenia exclaimed as soon as the innkeeper was gone. "That was Setalle Anan? How did she—? Light of Heaven! Even after seventy years, the Tower would—" I believe Garenia is concerned that HER OWN situation could be discovered, i.e., the runaway from 70 years earlier.
The dates we need to be concerned with for Setalle are TWENTY years...
"If Setalle had betrayed us, we would be crawling to Tar Valon, begging forgiveness the whole way." When she first came to Ebou Dar, she had been told the story of a woman made to crawl to the White Tower, and nothing she had seen since of Aes Sedai made her question it in the least. "She has kept the few secrets she knows from gratitude, and I doubt that has faded. She would have died in her first childbirth if the Kin had not helped her. What she knows comes from careless tongues, when it was thought she could not hear, and the owners of those tongues were punished more than twenty years ago."
1. Setalle was an Aes Sedai approx 70 years prior, because she recognized Garenia/Zarya from the tower.
2. Setalle knew of the kin approximately 20 years ago, and was no longer Aes Sedai at that time.
3. Garenia/Arya does not KNOW Setalle's secret identity.
4. other Kin defer to Setalle, they know she was Aes Sedai, and they know her AGE, because Kin defer based on age rather than strength as the White Tower does.
soooo. Setalle Anan was a sister between 70-20 years ago. she has hazel eyes, which mark her from Caemlyn or as an Arafellin.
and, additionally, regarding finding something just as important as the bowl of winds, to me, meant finding the Kin.
Jiana: 2003-11-18
I seem to recall either Elaida or Siuan, thinking to herself, that Amyrlins had been deposed, but not stilled, and kept in the Tower, not sent away, so as to be held as an example to the other initiates. Now, I don't recall anything being said about Sitters, or just your average sister, having the same thing happen... being set down but not sent away, etc. If Setalle is Martine, then couldn't it be that she did something approximately seventy years ago to be set down for but not stilled... She remained in the Tower as just an average sister, and studying ter'angreal... fifty years after the incident, she burned herself out. Just a thought... But not all sisters/Amyrlins/Sitters who misstep are stilled and sent away.
Mairashda: 2003-11-18
er...'scuse me?
where and when did stilled siuan sucessfully channel using an a'dam?
Anubis: 2003-11-18
you cant step down from being a clan chief either. it cant be done, yet someone pulled it off.
Zaela Sedai: 2003-11-18
Does it say anywhere what happens when you burn yourself out? Do you just "become" years younger like Suian and Leane? And do you age normally afterwards? If so than there is a strong case for Setalle being Martine, but other things point to her being a very important part of the tower, don't they? I'm probably over analysing thought. :)
Callandor: 2003-11-18
**where and when did stilled siuan sucessfully channel using an a'dam?**
In Salidar:
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Message
"Cooks or no cooks," Siuan said flatly, "I cannot channel. I have been stilled." "But there is something there to be Healed," Nynaeve insisted, "or you'd feel nothing through the bracelet."Siuan jerked her arm free and stuck her wrist out. "Take it off."**
Elder Haman: 2003-11-19
Callador's identification of Setalle Anan is correct- however, perhaphs she was involved in Verin's mistake 70 years ago- Settale worked on studing ter'angrel- Verin had a ter'angrel (the twisted ring), perhaps Settale was involved in helping Verin unravel it's mysteries. I don't know if I really believe that though.
A line I have always thought important was when Egwene was musing about Dreaming and realized no one had ever told her when Coridian Neal, (the last Tower dreamer, sorry I don't have my books with me and can't remeber how to spell her name), had died. My question: Did she die? I went back over everything Verin had said- and nothing she has said would deny her being Coradian Neal- the only problem is age, 500 years is a bit to long... but how old is Cadsuane? Maybe if Verin found a way around the oaths for even a small bit of time... I don't know- others have raised this before and we never got anywhere.
Zaela Sedai: 2003-11-19
IIRC Setalle didn't feel any thing when she put on the bracelet.
Elder-
As for Cadsuane she is about 295 years old.
TITLE: Crown of Swords,CHAPTER: GLOSSARY
"Cadsuane Melaidhrin (CAD-soo-ain meh-LIE-drihn): An Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah who has approached legendary status among Aes Sedai while still alive, though in truth most sisters believe she must be years dead by now. Thought to have been born born around 705 NE in Ghealdan, which would make her the oldest living Aes Sedai, she was also the strongest in the Power found for a thousand years or more until the advent of Nynaeve, Elayne and Egwene and even they do not far out-step her"
Dorindha: 2003-11-20
When wearing the bracelet:
Siuan - could feel Moghedian's emotions but could neither channel, nor cause Moggy to feel pain. As far as I can tell, it was no different for Moggy than it had been with the girls.
Setalle - I'm not sure if she felt anything, but ?Joline started screaming, her warders knew she was in pain and started massaging her neck... as if the collar burned?
If a non-channelling woman wore the bracelet, nothing would happen.
SDog: 2003-11-20
I really like Jiana's take on this. I don't have my books handy, and no time for a search. Can someone find a citation that substantiates her idea that an Amyrlin might be deposed but kept in the Tower?
I'm just thinking that Verin's mistake 71 years ago was the beginning of her plan. The mistake was what caused Setalle was deposed. In true Verin fashion, no one can tie her to the mistake, of course. Either that, or Verin shared her plan with Setalle, who proved less trustworthy than she thought, so Setalle had something done to her (deposed, exiled, whatever).
Remember that Vandene says she never met the AS who was burnt out. If that woman was ever Amyrlin, seems like Vandene would have at least met her. That seems to poke a hole in the theory that the Amrylin was Martine. Plus, as has been pointed out, Garenia knew her name, so she isn't using an alias.
Mairashda: 2003-11-20
unfortunately Mat is in no position to really observe setalle anan as he is preoccupied by jolines more violent reaction to the a'dam. the innkeeper reacts quite quickly,as quickly as jolines warders to be exact, though...and mat thinks he sees her groping at the bracelet.
Zaela Sedai: 2003-11-21
The only thing I could find where the Amyrlin was deposed and not killed one way or another was this:(Remember that Suain was supposed to be exiled)
"Shein Chunk was another matter, one who had squandered the power of the Amyrlin Seat, alienating most of the sisters in the Tower. The world believed that Shein had died in office, close on four hundred years ago, but the deeply hidden truth was that she had been deposed and sent into exile for life."
And even she was killed after 4 attemps of trying to restore her as Amrylin. I don't think that they would keep something in Tower records if an Amyrlin was deposed and kept in the tower, at least not the public ones. Also I believe that keeping a deposed Amyrlin would be risky because she may always be able to rally enough support to get the Seat back. Unless she was stilled.
Ellistann: 2003-11-22
Just got to check this after submitting it, and found a error of mine. Setalle can't be amyrlin.
Verin made her mistake in Far Madding. If these two are related (as I think they are) then Settle also was there, not at the tower as I thought. And unfortunately what mistake causes a Aes sedai to be birched, and then somehow another gets burned out/stilled?
Dueling? I doubt it.
Screwing with the ter'angreal that makes the power go away? perhaps.
That would cause the tower to "make her crawl"
Also you'll notice Settle has kids right after getting severed. Reminds me of the "Mad White's Breeding Program" or the fact of dealing with the loss. Also she is now with Mat, one of the three tavareen(sp?) that the world depends on. I.E. she is the "treasure worth as much as the Bowl"
sorry to raise more questions then answers but there it is.
Zaela Sedai: 2003-11-22
All of a sudden it makes sense that she lived so long! Anyone who has children has something to live for. It is probably one of the only things that could replace the loss of Saidar.
Anaiyella: 2003-11-24
This is a great theory, that I really think could have some real potential. The problems though as stated before is that who is Settle Ann? She couldn't have been the Amyrlin 70 or 71 years ago because the Amyrlin in that time was still there 50 years ago. I think that she could have been amyrlin, and the WT covered it up because they didn't want anyone to know that something happened to the leader of the WT. I'm hoping that RJ will address some of these questions in his next book, but untill then I don't think we can come to any steadfast conclusions.
harlekin: 2003-12-01
Well, you forget something important: Setalle Anan says somewhere that not all women can wear the bracelet but she thinks she can.
I think she knows that the ability to channel must be involved.
Conclusion: she thinks with her -former - ability to channel, stilled or burned out or not, she will be able to wear the bracelet.
silverwolf: 2003-12-02
Some of you seem to be suggesting that the pain Joline felt when she wore the collar and Setalle wore the bracelet could indicate that Setalle can channel saidin. That's not so. The pain didn't begin immediately (as when Rand touched the collar on the damane in book 5 or when Aran'gar touched Moghedien's collar in book 6/7); instead, it began when the pair tried to walk (ie: the collar was being moved while the bracelet was not on a woman who could channel but the bracelet was being moved). Look at book 2, when Egwene was trying to remove her own collar with her hands: she describes symptoms very similar to what Joline experienced. Setalle cannot channel saidin, although it seems likely that she was, at some point, able to channel saidar.
Frenzy: 2004-01-02
Back to the original theory...
The treasure almost as great as the Bowl is the fixed weather. And The One who is No Longer is the key to finding it, not the greater treasure.
Setalle Anan used to be Aes Sedai, and was burned out. Joline's reaction to Setalle trying to wear her a'dam proves that (along with Reanne's deference). But she is no longer Aes Sedai, not just no longer able to Channel. So she woouldn't have turned in the Kin, especially since Sisters are privy to that secret (as seen from Elayne's 'trial').
Verin has been working on something for seventy years now, and hasn't made a mistake in that long. And even after 70 years, the Tower would do... something, involving Setalle (according to Zarya). i think it's more likely that Zarya running away is tied to Verin's plans and mistake than Setalle Anan is.
timmah3209: 2004-01-03
I kinda just skimmed through this thread, but I got the impression that what the tower would make her crawl for was for the Kin in general. I mean isn't it like comepletely forbidden? I could be completely off as this section of the books seems rather foggy in my mind. Good thing I'm rereading them again ;)
rubbernilly: 2004-01-21
Couple of things -
I thought it was quite clear that Setalle had been burned out and that the reason for her continuing on was that she had children. The timing for that works for the Kin trying to get her married and having children.
And where else would a stilled/burned out AS go than but to the other community of channelers that she knew about?
I think Callandor's explanation of Setalle's identity is right on. This ties her to Verin 25 years ago, but what about 45 before that?
Cor Shan - you base your assertion that the Amyrlin Seat cannot be given up on your belief that it also cannot be refused. This is not the case. We are told that several times Cadsuane was offered the Amyrlin Seat and she turned it down.
Now, as for *what* actually happened 70 years ago, has anyone read NS in novel form? That happens 20 years ago, and there is a reference in there to things that had gone on 50 years before that. That's 70 years ago, and adds more fuel to the discussion of what Verin was doing.
I will try to find the quote tonight, but perhaps someone else can find it before then.
Deadsy: 2004-01-21
The fixed weather isn't the treasure. That was what the bowl was.. The treasure is something in addition to that.. IMO, it's the Kin. If they hadn't been looking for the bowl, they would never have found the Kin.
rubber, the chapter with the 50 year thing has the word "home" in the title.
Anubis: 2004-01-22
actually i believe you can not refuse summons to become amrylin. at least not legally. the wording in the summons is the same exact wording as summoning someone to trial. cadsuanne is just cadsuanne... if she doesnt want to be amrylin whos gonna force her?
Callandor: 2004-01-22
**The fixed weather isn't the treasure. That was what the bowl was.. The treasure is something in addition to that.. IMO, it's the Kin. If they hadn't been looking for the bowl, they would never have found the Kin.**
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 19 - Matters of Toh
"There is one other I can tell you, though it may not concern you." Which meant there were some she would not tell, which made him wonder why the Wise Ones had discussed them with her, since she was not a dreamwalker. "All three had this dream, which makes it especially significant. Rain," that word still came clumsily too, "coming from a bowl. There are snares and pitfalls around the bowl. If the right hands pick it up, they will find a treasure perhaps as great as the bowl. If the wrong hands, the world is doomed. The key to finding the bowl is to find the one who is no longer."**
A few things:
1. The bowl is not the treasure.
2. It is a single treasure, hence "a treasure."
3. Although a treasure can be many things, it most likely is a single object. Although it can easily be a whole group of objects.
4. It is not the Kin. The Dreamwalkers said the Dark could pick up the object and doom the world, how would they get the Kin to do that?
5. Odds are, it was the angreal/ter'angreal stash found along with the Bowl.
Now, I personally believe it to be a single object in the stash that has yet to be realized as important. This is because the Dark did carry off some portion of it (enough to get the Binder and angreal to Sammael in Illian, so Graendal could snatch up the angreal). Yet, the world hasn't been doomed yet; it could be that the Dark hasn't used it yet, but why wait? The Dreams imply that it would tilt the favor of the Dark or Light a great deal, so it would be used pretty much right away by either side. So, either the Dark has it, and is being stupid; the Light has it and doesn't know its value yet; or the Light has it and has used it.
ilgross: 2004-01-23
I think you have interpreted it wrong.
The dream says:
"If the right hands pick it up, they will find a treasure perhaps as great as the bowl. If the wrong hands, the world is doomed."
You say that the sentence "If the wrong hand the world is doomed" refers to this 'treasure'
But it could easily be refering to the bowl, the original object of the paragaraph,
And we all know that if the DO had gotten control of the Bowl he could of caused earthquakes and heaps of other natural disasters as well as making the summer longer and hotter.
rubbernilly: 2004-01-23
Back to the 70 year plan...
The quote I was thinking of from NS is on page 172 or 3 I think... where Siuan is talking about how she has been set to puzzling out activity from Saldaea, Tarabon, and Amadicia from 40 or 50 years ago.
Left my book at home today, but we don't get much more than that. I don't know if that plays into Verin's plans, but these events that Siuan is working on were at least happening concurrently with whatever Verin was doing at the beginning of her plan.
rubbernilly: 2004-01-23
Agreed w/ Ilgross...
The "it" of "If the right hands find it..." comes before any mention of the treasure. The only available antecedent for "it" is the bowl. Therefore, no "hands" are picking up any treasure. The treasure is just found by those that find the bowl.
Don't know that that is necessarily the Kin, but it does not necessarily rule them out, either, as some have tried to demonstrate.
dragonsceptor: 2004-01-23
While I agree that the most likely "treasure" was one the angreal or ter'angreal. However, maybe we are all overlooking something. What is one of the major things that is discovered along with the bowl? The Gholam shows up and we discover that Mat's fox medalion can harm it. I don't think the Gholam has played a big enough part in the series to warrent the time spent on it yet. To me, that means the Gholam will become a very important piece in the near future. I think it is significant that the only thing that this Gholam has ever been harmed by is discovered at the same time as the bowl. Perhaps this knowledge is the treasure that the shadow would win with if it was not discovered by the light.
I recognize that there are semantic problems with why this would be the treasure so feel free to trash me.
Deadsy: 2004-01-23
"4. It is not the Kin. The Dreamwalkers said the Dark could pick up the object and doom the world, how would they get the Kin to do that?"
That is not at all what I'm saying. The Dark picking up the bowl has nothing to do with the treasure. They would have doomed the world just by getting it, because the Light wouldn't have been able to fix the weather. Everyone would've died from it staying hot forever.
From the way it's worded I think the treasure was something the Light could get and the Dark couldn't get. The Dark wouldn't need additional "treasure" if they got the bowl. The Kin is a treasure for the Light that the Dark can't use. The Dark side doesn't know much of anything about them. The BA are probably only aware of their existence, and not the fact that there are 1,800 of them all over and they have a lot of skill.
Deadsy: 2004-01-23
Few more things..
"There are snares and pitfalls around the bowl. If the right hands pick it up, they will find a treasure perhaps as great as the bowl. If the wrong hands, the world is doomed."
All of the "it"s there are referring to the bowl, NOT the treasure. If the right hand (Mat, Elayne, Nynaeve) pick up the bowl, they'll find a treasure. If the wrong hand (Dark Ones's minions), pick up the bowl, the world is doomed.. because the weather won't be fixed and everyone will die. Not because of some treasure they can use against the Light. It's only them finding the bowl that would cause doom. And there is nothing in there that says the Dark could have found this treasure if they had found the bowl, or that they could get it if they hadn't found the bowl.
Anyway, it could just as easily be an angreal or ter'angreal like you said. They found the Kin before they found the bowl afterall, so I'm probably wrong.
Jes: 2004-01-24
I believe Callandor has it right: Setelle Anan is Martine Janata who was burned out 25 years ago. (Vandene said she never met Martine, hence would not recognize Setelle.) And I firmly believe Saucey Blue Confetti has it exactly right when she(?) says that runaway Garenia's comment is referring to the trouble Garenia herself would get into for running away 70 years ago. It is one of those RJ passages that makes you think it says one thing, when it really means another if you parse it correctly.
But we have gotten a bit off-topic with all this discussion of Setelle Anan and the treasure. The question is about Verin's 70-year plan.
I believe that something happened 70 years ago to make Verin start investigating the Black Ajah. My guess is that it was something she learned from a fellow who said she had a kind smile just before trying to kill her. Trying to kill an AS? – my guess is he's Black! And then Verin killed him instead.
There's a good chance this was what got Verin exiled from Far Madding. (And I think the exile was 70 years ago, but I might be wrong.)
So why has Rand messed things up? (1) Rand's emergence has resulted in Moiraine's death and Siuan's disappearance, or so Verin thinks in the PoD's prologue. Those two women were actual, or at least potential, allies in the Black Ajah investigation. Perhaps that is why Suian allows only Verin among all the AS with her to join in Rand's initial questioning in Agelmar's palace. (2) Rand's antagonism and suspicion of the Aes Sendai and his making them swear oaths has obscured her search. Now she can't as easily differentiate between those who support him because of an oath and those who perhaps oppose him for non-Black reasons. (3) Verin's own oath to Rand may in future limit her investigation. If he tells her to go somewhere, she must obey, no matter where her investigation is leading.
Finally, if it wasn't related to the abovementioned murder, then I think Verin was exiled from Far Madding for the use of compulsion on a man who remembered the weaves. (She recalls this in the same Prologue.) Probably using the weaves in her investigation just as she is currently.
Cha Faile: 2004-02-28
I found something else that happened just less than 70 years ago when i was reading through another theory.
Path of Daggers CHAPTER: 28 "This is not Garenia Rosoinde," she said. "I finally recognized her. Zarya Alkaese, a novice who ran away just before Vandene and I decided to retire and write our history of the world. She admitted it, when I confronted her."
So, if i'm right, because Zarya ran away 70 years ago, Vandene and Adeleas left the Tower just after the strange goings on in the Tower and the mystery about Verin. I don't think it's coincidence that made them leave just after this. Perhaps they thought they were in danger or something? I don't know...
I was just wondering if anyone else had realized this link too.
anudhra sedai: 2004-03-22
Perhaps all these coincidental references to 70 years ago are all going to come out in the revelation that Vandene is BA.
Verin and Setalle could have been hunting BA or something and Vandene and her sister went into retirement because they were getting to close to the answer.
spoiler........
If in NS moirane and siuan realize BA must be afoot, then obviously Cadsuane must have realized the same and could have sent sisters looking.
Vandene's sister must have been killed because they displeased the DO somehow.
All these occurances must be related somehow and RJ is probably going to pull everything together with the prologues.
Davian93: 2004-03-22
****Perhaps that is why Suian allows only Verin among all the AS with her to join in Rand's initial questioning in Agelmar's palace. ****
Verin pretty much black-mailed her way into that confrontation by confronting Moiraine and Siuan with Rand being the "man who could channel."
rrwisner81: 2007-03-07
i maqy be wrong but i belive thta one of the thing thta they found in the cache of Ter' angreal was one of the seal on the dark one's prison might this be the treasue spoken of?
Marie Curie 7: 2007-03-10
rrwisner81:
"i may be wrong but i belive thta one of the thing thta they found in the cache of Ter' angreal was one of the seal on the dark one's prison might this be the treasue spoken of?"
Are you talking about the cache of ter'angreal found in Ebou Dar? It was the cache itself that was the treasure. There was no Seal found there -- all seven Seals accounted for.
From the WOT FAQ:
Where we found the Seals, and their current state (broken or not):
1. Mat found the first in the Eye of the World with the Horn of Valere and Dragon Banner; it was already broken.
2. Bayle had one, intact, which he'd bought from a Saldaean antiques salesman. It was taken by Turak; Moiraine found it after the fight at Falme, and it was broken by then.
3. Turak had one in his cuendillar collection. Moiraine found it along with (2). Also broken.
4. Moiraine found one in the Stone of Tear's Great Holding, intact.
5. She found another one in Rhuidean, and made a scratch.
6. Nynaeve found one in the Panarch's Museum in Tanchico; it was accidentally broken on the way to Salidar.
7. Mazrim Taim gave the last one to Rand, saying it was found in a farmhouse in Saldaea. It is still intact.
Catalyst: 2007-03-11
Probably someone mentioned that Setalle Anan was stilled for some reason. She said something about "when certain events happen, the woman should back away quietly and die", but her Jasfer found her half dead on the street.
Probably.