Tamyrlin: 2003-12-03

I don't know that I can agree. I think, theoretically speaking, the DO has won many times in the realm of the Mirror Worlds. Remember when Rand makes the portal stone trip to Toman Head with his friends? He loses to Ishy over and over again. He wins their battle, but I don't know that it symbolized that the DO won, but it is possible that the DO has won at that level. I doubt, while possible, that the DO has ever escaped from his prison in the real world, which is what I take to mean he has won. If Ishy is saying that there have been times in the past in which in the DO has had complete influence in the world, and has enslaved the world, but has not escaped, that I could believe. But if the DO had escaped, I don't think there is any putting him back into his prison (unless the Creator stepped in and re-imprisoned him.) Just some thoughts.

Gaul: 2003-12-03

Iv always thought of the wheel of time as a wheel that repeats itself. In one age the DO rules, In another the Dragon slays him, In another The Dragon turns to the shadow and so on.

Cor Shan: 2003-12-03

What if there are no Prophicies of the Dragon in those Ages, the fourth might be a DO win IMHO. So a falso dragon turns to the dark, dies with age, and real dragon comes leads upraising. A false Dragon must be the one who turns to the dark /because/ the dragon is meant to defeat the DO.

Callandor: 2003-12-03

**The other, more likely option is that Rand HAS turned and the DO HAS won before. This begs the questions why isn't everyone worshipping the DO if he has won before.**

No, the DO has never won. A major theme of the book is balance, yes, but if the DO wins, there isn't a turn around point; it is his world then.

And basically, if anyone were to turn to the DO (think of Gray Men) the Do could take their soul. And the entire story has been the Dark's (mainly Ishy's) drive to capture or destroy Rand's soul. This has been a theory of mine for quite some time now:

TITLE: Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 55 - What Is Written in Prophecy

"Twice in this life I have offered you the chance to serve me living." Flames leaped in his mouth as he spoke, and every word roared like a furnace. "Twice you have refused, and wounded me. Now you will serve the Lord of the Grave in death. Die, Lews Therin Kinslayer. Die, Rand al'Thor. It is time for you to die! I take your soul!"

Ba'alzamon's blow struck him as he leapt, struck inside him, a ripping and crumpling, tearing something loose, trying to pull a part of him away. Rand screamed. He felt as if he were collapsing like an empty sack, as if he were being turned inside out. The pain in his side, the wound taken at Falme, was almost welcome, something to hang onto, a reminder of life. His hand closed convulsively. On Callandor's hilt.

He turned to face Ba'alzamon. The tearing within him had ceased as soon as his hand touched Callandor. Only an instant had passed, yet it seemed to have lasted forever. "You will not take my soul," he shouted. "This time, I mean to finish it once and for all! I mean to finish it now!"

Unseen maws gaped to rip his mind from his body, to tear away his soul. He sprang each trap and ran on; what Ba'alzamon twisted to destroy him, he made right without being aware of how. Vaguely he knew that in some way he had brought things back into natural balance, forced them into line with his own dance down that impossibly thin divide between existence and nothingness, but that knowledge was distant. All his awareness lay in the pursuit, the hunt, the death that must end it.**

The object of the entire series has been Rand al'Thor; the Dragon Reborn. More importantly The Dragon's SOUL. The Dark destroys that, the game is over; no more Dragon EVER.

The Dragon's Soul is the target; that has to survive the Last Battle. Rand gets burned to a crisp and the Light still wins, then yay the Last Battle is won and the Dragon's Soul is secure. He gets balefired or his soul taken; the game is up.

So, again, it is very much likely that the Light has won everytime.

Anubis: 2003-12-03

The one thing i find wrong with that callandor is that it makes souls out to be fragile things. So far from what we have seen the things are pretty durable. They survive mindtraps, balefire, death, constant reweavings.... fact of the matter is i dont think that dark one has the power to destroy rands soul. Corroupt certianly, and as we have seen, he is doing a rather good job of that, but destroy? i think not. The thing that you have to consider is that the wheel is an infinate universe. Anything that can happen WILL happen in some reality or some time. If souls can be destroyed, then eventually they will all be destroyed.

Callandor: 2003-12-04

Take, corrupt, capture, or destory (if possible), it doesn't matter. Once the DO has Rand's soul, or changes it, or destroys it he wins. So, if Rand's soul has survived for however many turnings, it stands to show that the Dragon has never ever turned to the DO, and the Light has never lost, and Ishy was lying.

Murrin: 2003-12-04

The initial thought is to completely reject the claim that the light's champion has been turned in the past, but really, Ishamael, as a philosopher, really believes this, and it does sort of make sense - the loss of the champion does not necessarily mean the defeat of the Light - for one thing, if the Dragon was turned in the AoL, it would not automatically free the Dark One (apparently a very difficult task, given that in that wohle period the DO didn't escape), and most likely the Bore would have been sealed by someone else in a different way... When the Dragon dies and is Reborn, he is back on the side of the Light, and it starts again with whichever version of events... However, the Prophecies do say he will win, and the prophecies are all coming true...

Anubis: 2003-12-04

hasnt robert jordan said that the dragon has been turned to the dark side before and that those ages ended in a stalemate?

mako0424: 2003-12-04

wow many good and bad ideas in this thread of theory.

Lets also kind of look at Rand and the Wheel of Time similar to That of Neo and the Matrix. there have been others before him, maybe they lost or won or were turned, but everytime it starts anew. i think maybe every time the Dark One gets out, and maybe every time the Dragon puts him back in. even lets say the dragon was balefired by some forsaken,. i think the Creator would take the intitative to bring back the dragon's soul in some person's body.

but one of my ideas is actually that Rand is Moridin. When Ba'alzamon and him fought, Rand's soul and Ishy's were mized and twisted, kind of like an Agent Smith and Neo combination.

This would explain alot, like why Moridin is always disguised, and it also had alot of faults, but i dont think it is competely unbelievable. I also think, in this age, seeing as the books only will follow this age, Something new will happen in the last battle. The dark one will come out of the Bore bringing with him all his dark minions while the forsaken and all his other minions await his arrival. Rand will fight some major battle with the DO in Tel-aran'rhiod. many many ideas, not all comprehensible or put together yet, but wait.

juitzhead: 2003-12-04

Callandor, I agree that the main piece in the game is Rand's soul, however, I tend to believe that Rand has to swear or submit his soul willingly to the DO in order for him to win.

Killing Rand obviously doesn't do much as seen in the Mirror Worlds and by LTT's suicide.

IF he has been turned previously, I would think that it has been done with the 13/13 thing. Ishy goes to a lot of trouble to get Rand to swear willingly, trying anything from scare tactics, to offering immortality.

The objective of the DO is to get the Dragon's soul to willingly serve the DO, thus the Light will have no Champion and be the Wheel will be destroyed.

Callandor: 2003-12-04

**Killing Rand obviously doesn't do much as seen in the Mirror Worlds and by LTT's suicide.**

LTT committed suicide most liekly after the Pattern was done with him (hence why he did what he did. Got to love that Pattern, eh? :p). And the Mirror Worlds don't add up to anything, if the DO is still trapped in the real world. And it most likely does "much" if he is killed before the Pattern destines him to be dead.

Aragorn: 2003-12-05

Wow, many things going on with this thread. But I think it is pretty clear from the entire premise of the series Wheel of Time that the DO has won LAST BATTLES. 3000 years ago after the Bore was opened by Lanfear and others, the soul that was currently in Lews Thieren's body led the charge to close the Bore and hence win the LAST BATTLE. He was unsuccessful and that Last Battle was a draw.

I think that the attack on Saidin by the DO at that time was the DO attempting to affect the next time He has to face the Dragon's soul. I also think it has something to do with Rand having a split LT/Rand personality.

It took 3000 years for the DO to attempt to break-out again and here is the Dragon's Soul again to try to COMPLETELY seal the DO away. Rand has some handicaps ie. tainted Saidin and a madman in his head, but he is still extremely powerful and hard to kill.

The DO can win a couple of ways. First, completely defeat the Dragon at the the LAST BATTLE, which I think is problably the hardest. He can kill him before which is still pretty hard or he can turn him. Turning him not only maybe easier but it keeps him around longer. Since when the man who has the Dragon's Soul is killed he then can be reborn sooner and start the battle all over again.

To get back to the original idea of this thread, I see no reason at all that the DO has not won before.

Afterall the DO doesn't walk around the world in a body, He is OUTSIDE OF THE PATTERN. He can however have unfettered access to the world until someone ie. The Dragon's newest incarnation comes around to shut him off from the world.

Anubis: 2003-12-05

rand is not THE be all and end all. If he is removed from the game, or is turned to the dark, the game still continues. Removing him is a risk, and turning him is an advantage, but it surely does not just end it then and there. Tho i would say that if rand is turned in this age were up a creek with no paddle.

a dragonburned fool: 2003-12-05

Was it Rand who was turned in the past? Didn't the book say it only about the Champion of the Light? And IIRC RJ said in an interview, when a Light Champion is turned to the dark side, he's never to be more Light's champion, a direct elimination game.

Callandor: 2003-12-06

**but one of my ideas is actually that Rand is Moridin. When Ba'alzamon and him fought, Rand's soul and Ishy's were mized and twisted, kind of like an Agent Smith and Neo combination.**

Umm... no. Rand and Ishy/Moridin are two TOTALLY different PEOPLE.

**TITLE: Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 55 - What Is Written in Prophecy

Rand pulled Callandor's blade free as Ba'alzamon's body sagged and began to fall, the shadow around him vanishing.

And suddenly Rand was in another Heart of the Stone, surrounded by columns still whole, and fighting men screaming and dying, veiled men and men in breastplates and helmets. Moiraine still lay crumpled at the base of a redstone column. And at Rand's feet lay the body of a man, sprawled on its back with a hole burned through the chest. He might have been a handsome man in his middle years, except that where his eyes and mouth should have been were only pits from which rose tendrils of black smoke.**

**TITLE: Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 56 - People of the Dragon

"But he's dead!" Mat protested. "Rand killed him. I saw the body!" And a fine stink that was, too. I never thought anything could rot that fast.

"You saw 'the body,' " Moiraine said with a twist to her mouth. "A man's body. Not the Dark One, Mat."

"I can be sure for the simplest of reasons, Nynaeve. However fast decay took it, that was a man's body. Can you believe that if the Dark One were killed he would leave a human body? The man Rand killed was a man. Perhaps he was the first of the Forsaken freed, or perhaps he was never entirely bound. We may never know which."**

1. Rand killed Ishy, and Mat saw the ACTUAL body, so it is not another personality of Rand's mind or Rand messing around for whatever reason being Ishy.

2. Ishy was around when LTT died, over 3000 years ago! Rand was born roughly 20 years ago. No way are they the same.

**TITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: 13 - Wonderful News

The little woman drew herself up. By face and form she was a luscious plum, ready for plucking, but her big blue eyes were glacial. A peach, perhaps. Peaches were poisonous, here and now. "You recall the Choedan Kal, I suppose." No amount of effort could make that low, breathy voice anything except sultry, but she managed to inject sarcasm. "Lews Therin has two of the access keys, one for each. And he knows a woman strong enough to use the female of the pair. He plans to use the Choedan Kal for his deed."**

3. Cyndane (Lanfear) explains that Rand (LTT reborn) has the CK and plans to use them to cleanse the taint... at this time SHE IS STANDING RIGHT IN FRONT OF MORIDIN. Lanfear would obviously know the difference between Rand and Moridin/Ishy.

**This would explain alot, like why Moridin is always disguised, and it also had alot of faults, but i dont think it is competely unbelievable.**

Moridin is only in disguise when he watches over Sammael and Graendal in ACOS.

**TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: 25 - Mindtrap

"You can look now," a deep voice said. She did, cautiously. The speaker was a tall, broad-shouldered young man in black boots and breeches and a flowing white shirt unlaced at the top, who watched her with startlingly blue eyes from a deep, cushioned armchair in front of a marble fireplace where flames danced along long logs. She stood in a wood-paneled room that might have belonged to a wealthy merchant or noble of moderate rank in this time, the furniture lightly carved and touched with gilt, the rugs woven in red-and-gold arabesques. She did not doubt it was somewhere close by Shayol Ghul, though; it did not have the feel of Tel'aran'rhiod, the only other possibility. Swiveling her head hastily, she drew a deep breath. The Myrddraal was nowhere to be seen. Tight bands of cuande seemed to vanish from around her chest.

Suddenly, it occurred to her that this fellow knew a great deal for a Friend of the Dark, especially one not many years past twenty. He swung one leg over an arm of the chair, lounging insolently under her scrutiny. Graendal might have snatched him, if he had any position or power; only too strong a chin kept him from being pretty enough. She did not think she had ever seen eyes so blue. With his insolence in her very face and what she had had to endure at Shaidar Haran's hands so fresh, with the Source calling her and the Myrddraal gone, she considered teaching this young Friend of the Dark a sharp lesson. The fact that her clothes were grimy added their part; she herself smelled faintly of the perfume in the wash water, but she had had no way to clean the rough woolen dress in which she fled Egwene al'Vere, with its rips from her journey down to the Pit. Prudence prevailed—this room must be close to Shayol Ghul—but barely.**

Rand has grey/blue eyes (Aiel eyes), not pure blue eyes like Moridin.

Great Lord of the Dark: 2003-12-06

Another opportunity to spew my vile heretical thoughts...

Ishamael doesn't have to be lying. He's a philosopher, well versed in Mirror Worlds and all the other realities that Verin explains to Egwene (ex.: DO imprisoned in just one means he's still imprisoned in all worlds). So, Ishamael has traveled to Mirror Worlds. Why wouldn't he, to verify his profound thoughts on philosophy and the nature of existence? When he says Rand has served him before and will serve him again, he's right. In other realities, realities Rand himself saw in TGH while travelling to Toman Head, Rand died or lost, so why not some where he turned? All that matters is that the last remaining version of Rand, the one in the most likely reality, thus the one with the most substance (see Selene's comments in TGH), is still standing. One Rand remains, and the Dark One remains imprisoned.

In past Ages the Dark One has not been losing, he has been winnowing possibile realities, until there is basically only the reality we are reading about left to fall. Any other choice Rand made up until now would have resulted in his losing, and the Dark One's ultimate victory.

Of course, Rand is also correct when he says he has never served the Dark One, because in his past, he never has.

"Paradox, child, the essence of the Dark One." ~Verin, TDR~

On another heretical note, I believe Death for Rand at this point in our reality, as it was in the others he saw in TGH, is a Dark One complete victory. Why? Because once dead, the DO can pluck him up and turn him to the Shadow. Yeah, I know you all think I'm crazy, but I'll have the last laugh. Still, if Rand can just be reborn in a later Age, and he never turned in all those other realities, then why was there always the accompanying "I win again, Lews Therin?" Rand dying = DO victory. And since the objective is to turn Rand, then Rand Dying must be equivalent to Rand turning.

Damn, time to rewrite my grand theory again...

Anaiyella: 2003-12-11

Great theory, but theres only one problem...If the draogn turned to the DO, how would he be reborn to lead the uprising? Other than that I could almost believe it myself. :)

Aragorn: 2003-12-12

His current incarnation has to be killed. Which is why I think the DO would rather turn him. He gets to rule longer.

Stanzi: 2003-12-12

I think that the Great Lord has won at times. (I also think the Great Lord and the Creator are one and the same, but that's neither here nor there.) Sometimes the Dragon is turned to the Great Lord's side, and then that particular person is no longer the Dragon. But the Pattern spins out what it needs, and a new Dragon would be spun out. Yes, it's a wheel, it's a cycle, but things have had difinite ends in this series, so it seems logical to assume there must be some beginnins. (...or A beginning...)

That said, I pretty much agree with this here theory. Bravo.

jofra: 2003-12-14

the DO has never won. If that were so, the Wheel would be broken, and the story would not be told.

The mirror worlds are just a reflection of what would happen, if other choices had been made by the protagonists. We see in one world the victory by the Trollocs, during the Trolloc Wars. Ishamael is only a man, not some infallible person. He may well believe what he says, having visited the Mirror Worlds, but that doesnt make it so.

To reiterate, if the DO wins, the wheel will be broken, and there would no longer be a World for people.

Lan: 2003-12-14

This eventually boils down to a discussion of the Theological basis behind Jordan's mechanism of Creator/Dark One. From all discussions it is felt that there is a balance between Good and Evil. So what truly determines a win for the DO? It is said he wishes to break free and remake the world in his own image. It seems pretty clear that this has never happened. Yet Ishamael says that the Light's Champion has in fact been turned to the Dark a number of times during the Turning of the Wheel. If you look at RJs rendition of the wheel, there are six spokes, dividing the Wheel into seven sections, or ages. The Wheel is powered by the Great Serpent, Infinity.

Therefore, I conclude that while, yes, sometimes the Champion of Light is turned, providing a 'victory' for the DO, it does not end in ultimate victory because it happens every time the wheel turns. So lets say: Age One: Age of Legends. Shai'tan is forgotten and mankind works together to better itself, thereby corrupting itself(here's a debate on Roussou v. Voltaire). The Dragon I(LTT) is born to balance the initial opening of the bore. Age Two: the Dark Ages. Mankind has fallen from the heights it once thought of itself, and begins again to forget where it came from. Age Three: The Dark One returns: Again, the Dragon is born, and again, he temporarily reseals the DOs prison leading to Age Four: In this time people are well aware of what has happened, but can't figure out how to repair it. Age Five: the Dark One nearly breaks free, and this time he turns the Dragon(Fisher), but others nearly as important to the Pattern are there as well, and, knowing how, almost completely reseal the DO away. Age Six is Research and Age Seven, The Dragon realizes how to fix the seals before the Dark One even manages to get his hands in things.

If Ishamael is indeed a philospher and realizes these things, then he knows that the best the Shadow can ever do is to turn the Champion of the Light, and even then, there will be no ultimate victory. Perhaps that is was drove him somewhat insane, as was intimated in references in the Books.

Cor Shan: 2003-12-15

Lan - 2nd age = AOL. No 2nd age = breaking, No 1st age = beginning of AOL. AOL = 2nd age, breaking to TG = 3rd age

Now to the theory. The wheel is a seal on the DO's true prison, that keeps him from the creator. The wheel tries to be circular, but can fail when the DO pushes it out of shape, but tries to counter, and "twist the sword in his hand" - make the forsaken screw up. The wheel is like the Seals in the story - half is dark, half is light. It is not, however, a half then half, it is like a star of random points in the middle. The DO can win, but only if the Dragon is killed/balefired, or is 13/13ed. I say Balefired for two reasons -

1) They can be spun out again - when you burn a thread in a loom, the spool of thread is still fine [saving the house burning down]

2) if the above is false, then another soul is promoted to Dragon. Or another is made.

When the DO wins, the Dragon either rules beside him(1), or is dead, turned(2) or casualty(3). This leaves three possibilites -

1) Dragon turned willingly cannot be tied like any other, or will lose the dragon title, but the title is back if he turns on the DO. Or the other way around.

2)When the Turned dead happens there are two pionts

a) willingly see above

b) agaist will - when you are turned, you lose your soul. Your soul can be respun into a new body, so dragon leads rebellion - much cooler than this story IMO, in retrospect.

3)Well the Dragon tries again.

The cyclic nature is not true, but the wheel does its best.

pjrobertson: 2014-09-11

Although the books are over here is what my theory was.

The Creator wanted to make the world as good as possible so during the moment of creation he imprisioned the dark part of himself away from the rest of the world outside of time. So in essence he separated his dark half from the light. Left the light on one side and the dark on the other.

The Creator put a part of himself into the Dragon giving him some of his power in case his dark half was ever freed.

So it really didn't matter who the dragon fought for the light or the dark. Once the Dragon was close to the Dark One a merging would happen and a type of realization of who he was would make the creator whole again. Than the creator would re-imprison his darker side and a new age would start.

Who actually would know if I was right or wrong considering the books are over and he didn't fight for the dark.