1
Tamyrlin: 2003-08-01
Golem, this is a pretty cool idea, as though the Pattern feeds the information to the channeler in a moment of need that is key to the Pattern's design? You should take a look and detail all of the ones you find; I wonder if this could be explained as knowledge from the soul memories that is accessed in a time of great need by the current incarnation of that soul? Would you suggest that only ta'veren can create "heroic weaves"?
2
WinespringBrother: 2003-08-01
Are there any examples of these heroic weaves besides from Rand? Rand has an unconscious source of "unknown" weaves to draw on obviously - LTT. For instance, when Rand blocked Aviendha's gateway from closing, Asmodean commented that only LTT, Demandred and Semirhage were known to have that ability. So we are given big hints as to where Rand gets these new abilities.
One possibility would be Aviendha's discovery of gateways if she wasn't taught it by a forsaken ;).
3
Shadow Bane: 2003-08-01
yes very cool only
"He had no knowledge of what or how he did that it used a masive ammount of saidar and drained rand somewhat."
Rand is a male channeler he uses saidin, im sure u knew that though
4
imfunny81: 2003-08-01
I would submit that it isn't just ta'veren that can do this... for example, aviendha and her weaving of the gateway to the snowy Seanchan meadow... she clearly had no idea what she was doing, but did it in a time of great need, at least, as she saw it...
5
Rand-althor: 2003-08-01
I belive that all the "heroic weaves" as Golem puts it are done by Rand, exept in tDR when Nyneve uses Balefire on the three fades (just after first meeting Avienda), which means it could very well be just Lews Therin seising the source, as he tries many times to do against Taim in book 6, and weaving it himself.
6
Callandor: 2003-08-01
As people have mentioned:
Rand: A heck of a lot of things. Traveling, Skimming, Balefire, the storm cloud in the Stone of Tear, creating rain, slicing male and female flows, blocking gateways, the super-shield, the flower/tube weave during the cleansing. By far the most, and should be of course.
Nynaeve: Balefire in TDR, and also the blue crowbar in TDR (I think... the "supergirls" were going to find the BA stuff, and Egwene does her Earth trick to the lock just before Nynaeve forces it open).
Avi: Gateways... can't think of anything else.
Egwene: Not sure if this was heroic, but the tying off of weaves might be concidered something.
7
golem22: 2003-08-01
I think its only vary important channelers that can do it. So far as far as i know none of the forsaken have done it though. I think that sometimes heroic weaves fail an example of this is when Nyneve trys to heal birgette just after shes pulled from TAR she uses a fantastically complex and powerful healing i think this is a heroic weave unfortunately it doesnt work because there is nothing to fix in birgette. At least not in the way healing would work.
8
Naboo: 2003-08-02
golem22, I truly agree with you bout this theory. Though some people have different ideas in concern with this theory I belive golem has hit the spot. To add support I just want to point out that Nyneave does this multiple times as well. Firstly, she throws balls of fire n more stuff at Aginor when she is being tested for Accepted. This she does at a great time of need *duh* and mit is something she was and is not taught at all. Another is the lightning bolts she calls down on the Seanchan when Liandrin tricks them (TGH). Same thing for this one as before. There are a few more which I dont remeber too well but will post as soon as I find them again. Unhh golem im not sure but does Nyneave's Healing of stilled and gentled channelers as well as Elayne's ability to create Ter'angreal fall into the category of Heroic weaves? Nyway all this lends support to the idea that there are heroic weaves done when necessary and not just somethin brought about by past souls (like Lews in Rand)
9
golem22: 2003-08-02
I didnt think of the weaves as based off of need originally but now that i think of it im certian that its correct. The books are set up so that the pattern creates things based off of need. TAR works based off of need Coincidentally once need is used in TAR it cant be used to find the same thing again. Reminds you of finding the eye of the world? Dragons are spawned based off of need, but once the true dragon is spawned any false dragons are not needed. It makes sence that need affects channelers. Many of the heroic weaves have not been reduplicated. (takes rands seeking lightning that he used in the stone of tear). Those weaves that are heroic that are reused are only as the result of teaching from others. As to if creation of terangreal or healing the stilled is heroic i personally dont think so those i believe are essentialy researched weaves. However people are free to draw there own conclusions since it was an "accident" discover of healing that nyneve discovered it might be heroic.
10
Rhodric: 2003-08-03
i don't know how important siuan and leane are, but logain is being set up to pretty darn important to TG or something similar.
so Nyn healing logn could be considered to be a result of need.
and the fact that no-one is known to have done it before (heal severing) including those from the AOL, i would say that it fits into your heroic weave category.
11
Flinn: 2003-08-04
I don't know bout the wheel giving out weaves, but i like the theory. I think that all these heroic weaves come with your strength in the Power. Remember, we don't see all the weak channelers doing heroics. I really agree with the souls "remembering". this is the most likely.
12
heronblade: 2003-08-05
i dont think its the mems of prev incarnations...ny and ely arn't re-born are they? it would make more sence that people new to the power can do unexpected things because they havent learnt thet they cant be done yet. a little like the wilders 'tricks' when they come to the tower. by the time they are as they cant do them anymore because they have been trained not 2
13
Jiana: 2003-08-06
Heronblade: Elayne and Nynaeve would have to be someone reborn... As stated in another thread (can't remember which, but there are probably a few) RJ said in an interview that everyone is reborn.
14
Tigraine: 2003-08-06
Actually, Rand's lightning stalking weave -has- been duplicated before... way before... as in Prologue of Eye of the World before.
"The dead lay everywhere, men and women and children, struck down in the attempted flight by lightnings that had flashed down every corridor, or seized by the fires that had stalked them..."
That sounds like the same weave to me.
15
illuvatar7: 2003-08-12
Well, there's another perspective to this concept. Firstly, I do believe that there are heroic weaves, in which the pattern/the creator/Robert Jordan draws on a character's deep need to bail them out or work a miracle and keep the story going. However, I also believe that not all of the instances mentioned here fall under that. Egwene's discvovery of how to tie off weaves, for example, or Nynaeve's balefire and crowbar, could be just ordinary discoveries on their part.
This is because of WoT's unique magic system (The Power). Once you have enough strength in the power, then theoretically you can do anything : the weaves of Fire, Water, Air, Earth and Spirit are the only building blocks necessary. All a channeler has to do is figure out how to combine them and tie them together to make certain things happen. This, I believe, is how the original channelers, who were certainly all wilders since there would have been no White Tower/Black Tower/Hall of Servants/etc., learned to channel. Ability with certain aspects of the power stems from, IMHO, how the person uses the power during their initial experience with it - Nynaeve could be so good at healing because that was what she dedicated herself to doing while she was a Wisdom and didn't realize she was channeling. Likewise, Alivia, as a damane, was a weapon from a young age and so was proficient with destructive weaves and little else. Discoveries, rather than drawing on need, stem either from experimentation, trial and error, or a sense and feeling of how the Power itself should be weaved. Thus we may include Nynaeve's healing of Logain, which I don't consider heroic at all - she worked at it and tried at it for days, she didn't rely on a burst of need to do it. Likewise with Elayne's manufacture of ter'angreal - she worked at it by copying the a'dam and moving upward not through need but through work and study.
Heroic weaves, however, are very different from discoveries. Undeniably, they are very powerful manifestations of saidin/saidar. So far only Nynaeve and Rand have done them as far as I can see. Rand's seeker bolts in the stone of tear are one of his examples. Nynaeve did hers during the third of her Accepted tests (the future test), on the hilltop with Lan: she re-opened the ter'angreal that had closed ("The way back will come but once. Be steadfast") and of STRONG note here is the fact that she WAS NOT ANGRY. Strangely, that act did not break her block.
Both Rand and Nynaeve also had hero moments in trying to reach the source as well. Rand's first instance of truly touching the Source was the lightning bolt he used to free himself and Mat after being trapped by Darkfriends in Book 1. I discount his washing away Bela's tiredness in the flight from the Draghkar as true channeling since he did not suffer from the feverish delirium that overtakes wilders who touch the source for the first time after doing that - he did suffer from it after calling that first lightning bolt though (if you recall, a female darkfriend tried to kill him with a poisoned dagger while he was sick, and the illness cleared up very rapidly as well, proving it was a symptom of channeling). Nynaeve's touching the source hero moment was, of course, breaking her block, where she almost drowned before doing it.
Please excuse my long rambling, just thought to share my views. :-)
16
Callandor: 2003-08-12
Umm... yes, Healing Bela was part of Rands Power Acquisiton Syndrome. From the WOT FAQ:
1. OP use: cleansing Bela: [TEOTW: 11, The Road to Taren Ferry, 125]
Reaction: Baerlon encounter with the Children of the Light, [TEOTW: 15, Strangers and Friends, 186-90]
Time: seven days.
2. OP use: Hitting Trolloc with the boom of Domon's boat. [TEOTW: 20, Dust on the Wind, 258-9]
Reaction: Mast/trapeze stunt on Bayle Domon's boat [TEOTW: 24, Flight Down the Arinelle, 301-3]
Time: four days.
3, OP use: calling lightning to escape the inn in Four Kings [TEOTW: 32, Four Kings in Shadow, 407]
Reaction: fever/chills at the inn in Market Sheran. [TEOTW: 33, The Dark Waits, 423-6]
Time: two days.
4. OP use: at the Eye of the World.
Reaction: Forgetfulness, others?
Time: nearly instantaneous.
17
Dorindha: 2003-08-12
This is the problem with the white tower - the fact that certain things are "known" stifles creativity. The fact that a wilder has to feel what is right to do gives them much more flexibility.
Nynaeve's healing of Siuan and Leane was astonishing to the AS becase eg fire "can't" be used in a healing weave, whereas Nynaeve used it. Various times we have also been told how there were loads of different healing weaves in AoL, yet the AS believe(d) that there was only one kind.
It is a bit different when someone just "knows" how something is done - eg Avienda's travelling - but I don't think it is suspect, she just hads a natural feel for it in her panic.
18
Jiana: 2003-08-13
Like Dorindha said, there are many things that are considered "impossible," some of which have been proven to be entirely possible. An idea that I have toyed with just for the heck of it is that channelers really can fly--if they are strong enough in the OP. There are legends about Aes Sedai flying, correct? Well, my guess is it would have to be based on something (i.e. the legend that Aes Sedai are ten feet tall obviously comes from their looming trick done with Illusion). Maybe an Aes Sedai or other channeler, if strong enough, could wrap themselves in Air and lift themselves. But who knows? :)
19
brigitta: 2003-11-19
and therefore the (re)invention of OP in our world is what? possible because we have been told it's impossible??
