Tamyrlin: 2003-08-21

So, if I understand correctly, you are suggesting that the cataclysmic World War 3 would be the end of a turning of the Wheel and the resulting world would be the start of the new turning and the First Age? The major problem here is our inability to nail down an Age to a specific set of time. The Third Age will encompass three thousand years, but we don't know how long the Second or First Ages were. We know the Portal Stones probably came from the First Age. We are told they were created by people who knew the numbers of chaos (which I would suggest were channelling mathematicians), but we are also told that the relics in the musuem, like the Mercedes Benz symbol, are from the First Age. Of course, no one really knows when the Portal Stones were made or the car symbol. Aren't we also of the invention of space travel, our first trip to the moon, occurred in the First Age? I think what you are suggesting could have happened the other way too. The Seventh Age ends the age of channeling, and the First Age is our Age, ending in the World War 3 scenario, beginning of the Second Age with the discovery of channeling, mixing science and channeling. Thanks for the theory, I am sure others will have comments.

Anubis: 2003-08-21

hey guys... this may hurt... but the are just books. no one is going to learn to channel, im sorry.

Callandor: 2003-08-21

I have to agree with anubis... **claps hands** no channeling, soory I want to too, but its not going to happen.

Corlm: 2003-08-21

The mercades or how ever it is spelled i didnt even relize...WOW! there are other but anyways... maybe the world war 3 thing in idea of the series is ok because its been about 3000 years and that were at a point where there is little more up before it comes down. But I think maybe it is the world war 3 type thing because civilization b4 the war of power was at a top too. so maybe it would be like that now too.

Rhodric: 2003-08-22

i know the numbers of chaos. six is one of them. does this make me a channelling mathematician?

Direwolf: 2003-08-22

Hey! We can dream!!! ....And then again...... u never know! ;)

moridin68: 2003-08-22

I'm with Anubis and Callandor. No channneling: not now, not ever. Wait a minute... I think I sense Saidin... nope. Just gas.

Capiam: 2003-08-22

My opinion is the wheel is built like this:

1st Age: Age of Tech

Dark one is well Sealed.

One Power is lost.

Catalyst to change Age:

Perhaps WW3?

One Power rediscovered.

2nd Age: AOL 1st Half

Dark one still well Sealed.

Catalyst to change Age:

Bore drilled into DO prison.

3rd Age: AOL 2nd Half

Dark One released.

Fight against DO begins.

Catalyst to end Age:

Dark One partialy re-sealed.

4th Age: Randland Era

Dark One's prison weakens.

Catalyst to end Age:

Dark One's prison well Sealed.

At this point OP is lost, and Age 1 begins again.

The idea that the first age is current day is supported by the old tales mentioned, the giants Merk and Mosk throwing spears of fire across the sea, Sally who visited the stars, Glen who went to the moon, etc.

Since we have no OP, and we are included in the cycle, it seems fair to assume that the OP will be lost after the Last Battle.

Since the AOL obviously has some tech, although not the level of tech I would expect, it leads me to believe that some catastrophy occured between the 1st and 2nd ages. WW3 fits this description nicely.

One of the things that disturbs me is that the ages dont seem to be equivilent lengths. Although I guess they dont have to be. The 3rd age in particular only seems to last a few hundred years.

Well thats enough rambling for me, tell me what you think.

Callandor: 2003-08-22

The AoL was the second Age; that's it. There was no half way point in the AoL. The second Age ended with the Strike at Shayol Ghul. The third Age is the Age of Randland.

Direwolf: 2003-08-22

You forget that there are 7 ages in the turning of the wheel and judging by some quotes in the books (ones from the 4th Age) there should be OP after the Last Battle

Therilon: 2003-08-23

Capiam, the Third Age has lasted/will last for 3000 years.

The current Randland era is age 3. The wheel also has 7 spokes, meaning that there are 7 ages.

Maybe it's the way that you phrased it, but there will always be the OP, it is just that Channeling can be lost, as it seems to be linked to genetics.

HunterofTrollocs: 2003-08-23

Dude, it's just a series of books. They aren't real. Get a life, man.

Sorry for being rude.

juitzhead: 2003-08-24

HunterofTrollocs - Im not sure I understand what you are doing here, if you dont like the discussion and have nothing of value to add, then why bother?

Just doesn't make any sense for you to join a site dedicated to a series of books, and spouting insults to people who do enjoy the books and would like to further enhance their understanding.

Niall: 2003-08-24

Hey man I like this theory. I like the idea I read somewhere about genetic manipulation leading to people being able to access the OP. (Did I read that here or somewhere else? I cant't remember.) Yay for this theory! and others like it!

I do have something I want to say to those who feel obligated to point out that these are books-Duh! everybody knows this, we're just having fun. I doubt anyone here seriously thinks they're going to stand up and channel if they try really hard. It's like all the other theorys here, we have fun.

P.S. Back to taking the series too seriously, if this is the seventh age, does Robert Jordan have the foretelling, or is he writing about bits of history?

Rhodric: 2003-08-26

In a large amount of fiction and mythology, there is this idea of an imprisoned being of absolute evil, trapped outside of our world. In many of these stories, mankind releases this absolute evil in his pride/folly/curiosity. An inevitable reign of chaos and destruction takes place, before the Evil is finally destroyed or imprisoned again.

The reason I mention all this is because the idea of an imprisoned Great Evil is so ingrained on the human Psyche, that it must hold some kind of significance, perhaps historical significance. Perhaps there really was a time in (pre)history when a demon was released, wreaking havoc on the world, and we all as a species remember it. Personally I think this is as plausible a view of history as any other (archaeology? Please, that's only as exact as science).

Maybe this absolute evil and prison thing was primitive man's way of describing an invasion from outside forces (intercontinental, interplanetary... natural). Of course it could just be a result of a psychological need for mankind to envisage an infinite evil, so that anything 'bad' he does pales in comparison.

Regardless, I think that a discussion of this nature is no more or less worthy of our thoughts and our time, than any other hotly discussed topic, particularly on this site. (most can be solved by asking RJ... unless he says RAFO!)

;)

Aviendha: 2003-08-27

Am I the only one who's totaly confused now?

Jiana: 2003-08-27

Whoa what an interesting discussion! I love speculation like this. :) Rhodric, that whole post could flower a good theological discussion, IMO. I have always thought that evil was something that man created in his own psyche, like you said, to "minimize" the bad things that he does, or to emphasize morality and humanity. But one basic point here that I will reiterate (and I apologize if I offend anyone): Nearly every good, classic story has a good vs. evil theme, including the Bible. (I know that I can't be the only one who has seen similarities between the series and the Bible.)In our own world, evil was created by man... In the series, evil (the DO) was released by man... Same difference. In both contexts the inhabitants of the world have to clean up the mess they made. :)

heronblade: 2003-08-30

could it be that once the do is sealed up tight the access to the op and tp are sealed off to and that they both come from the same sorce- the do's prison. as the prison weakens some of the power leaks our and activates latent genes in channelers. or it could be that during the ww3 scenario we have a remake of ww2 where we have some1 like asomodion (sp) tampering to make 'wepons' like gholams and graymen and makes channelers who go mad or revolt and destroy humanity

Callandor: 2003-08-31

**could it be that once the do is sealed up tight the access to the op and tp are sealed off to and that they both come from the same sorce- the do's prison.**

How the heck does the OP come from the DO's prison? The TP comes from the DO, the OP from the Creator.

heronblade: 2003-09-01

Yes, but, the do and creator are both 'aspects' of thing\being and assumedly are both on a different plain to the randland earth. the do is 'trapped' on his plain (his prison) and influences the world though a hole between the plains that allows him access (the bore) assuming these holes are a fairly rare occurance, the souce of op in the first age was newly commented on when L bored through the existing patch from the last turning, it makes sence that the creator has to use the same gap\ portal from his realm. the tp has hypothetically less power than the op and the op is supiriour to it. maybe the flows of it passing into the world are also 'thinner' and it could slip between the cracks. if rand totaly remakes the do's prison then the cracks of seams wont be there and the power cant flow through...

Callandor: 2003-09-02

So the Creator was trapped in the First Age?.... Ok, no, but ok.

Rhodric: 2003-09-02

actually Callandor i would say that the creator is "trapped" in all ages. trapped in the sense that he is not free to touch the world.

or he is free but he doesn't want to intefere. hmmm.

Jiana: 2003-09-03

I always thought that the Creator could touch the world if he wanted, but he just didn't want to. Remember in tEotW when he told Rand that he would take no hand to help?

Callandor: 2003-09-03

RJ has said that if the Creator interfers, the Pattern would be destroyed. I'll find the quote later.

heronblade: 2003-09-04

And who says the creator is trapped. he is seperated from the world possably in a parallel one. i have long thought that the portals created by a long died out civilisation were built to allow him access to the worlds he once created. if the do ever breaks free and enters the world the pattern will end if the creater ever directly touches the world the pattern will end. this doesnt mean he's traped. it means he voulentaraly stays away.

heronblade: 2003-09-04

thinking about posting a theory on this... what do u think? has it got the substance to warent an indipendant theory?

Callandor: 2003-09-04

**it means he voulentaraly stays away.**

I cannot agree more then that right there. I know all of you have heard this quote or read it many a time now, but it sums up this point very very well:

**TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight, CHAPTER: 24 - A Strengthening Storm

The Creator had made the world and then left humankind to make of it what they would, a heaven or the Pit of Doom by their choosing. The Creator had made many worlds, watched each flower or die, and gone on to make endless worlds beyond. A gardener did not weep for each blossom that fell.**

He doesn't interfer, he's not trapped, and he isn't in another world. He is outside the Pattern, similar to the DO (but not trapped) apparently, and creates worlds whenever or wherever he wants.

Rhodric: 2003-09-04

Callandor:

**RJ has said that if the Creator interfers, the Pattern would be destroyed.**

Heronblade:

**if the do ever breaks free and enters the world the pattern will end if the creater ever directly touches the world the pattern will end.**

i don't like this. it is starting to sound like the DO and the creator are one and the same. creator is unhappy with his own creation and wants to destroy it, and is now viewed as evil.

heronblade: 2003-09-09

the quote says **TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight, CHAPTER: 24 - A Strengthening Storm

The Creator had made the world and then left humankind to make of it what they would, a heaven or the Pit of Doom by their choosing. The Creator had made many worlds, watched each flower or die, and gone on to make endless worlds beyond. A gardener did not weep for each blossom that fell.** why should he suddenly want to destroy a world he doesnt like the look of. the do wants to destroy it and was sealed away from it by the creator in order to prevent him from doing so. the only way the creator and do could be the same being is if they suffered from multiple personality disorder!

Rhodric: 2003-09-10

heronblade, i didn't mean to imply that was really what i (or anyone else) believe, just saying that their arguments are pointing in that direction.

and who says an omnipotent being can't have multiple personalities? ;)

Kaream Inmagenes: 2003-09-19

OK..I have never read the series but my friend has. He told me I should read the series so I decided to do some research and ended up here.

My friend originally told me to read it because I was a lot like Mat I guess. I am a compulsive gambler who wins most of the time...a lecher...excesive use of vulgar language(F-word used every other word even in casual convo)...and I am always joking around and pulling pranks..hardly ever serious and if thats what Mat is like..we are one in the same I guess.

It was a little messed up when I read a little on the toon Parin or Perin..I forget the spelling...I found he strongly resembles my friend Mike. He is burly smart..but thinks things through so kinda slow and is the only one of us who has actually encountered a wolf up close(He left out the details of that encounter and seemed kinda afraid about. He also claims to hear voices in his head.

Now the most messed up part about this is the similarities between my friend who originally refered me to the series..and the main guy Rand. I read a little bit on this toon in other sites related to the books and was kinda freaked out by it. I always thought my friend was crazy...but what would I be expected to think of someone who hears voices and talks to himself. While reading this..I was reminded of a time a while back when he was out standing in the rain..staring at some tree. Naturally..I was curious as to what in Gods name would keep him standing out in a storm like that. He told me that he was trying to get lighting to strike the tree by pure will. Ok..I thought this was a little messed up and almost had him committed. But 15 minutes later..he came in after a loud crack of thunder. He told me he did it..so I went outside to get a look myself. There was a huge part of the tree laying on the ground..it was indeed struck. A few hours later..he said he wasnt feeling right..(this kid hardly ever gets sick), and decided to go to bed. Could it be coincidence?...or is my friend a freak?

I decided that it had to be coincidence until recently. We were at his bros house playing euchre...5 man..me and his brothers wife vs him...his bro..and his bro and wifes roommate. Well my friend and his bro arent too experienced with the game so they shared the same hand. We were winning at first...but then they started getting on a roll...my friend knew every card I had and was telling his brother and using it to their advantage. The whole time..I saw my friend mouthing the words to something..but I couldn't hear a damn thing he was saying..neither could anyone else..except his brother. His bro said after the game that he heard him as clear as day and was curious as to why no one else heard him. He kept wondering why he was talking so loud and telling him what cards I had loud enough for everyone else to hear. It is messed up..but somehow..my friend found a way to communicate with his bro and completely excempt everyone else from what he was saying. He then afterwards complained of feeling sick and was thinking about calling it a night.

Now what ever my friend did..it drew some negative attention to himself. About 10 minutes after the game..a car was parked out front and the guy had a gun. The guy ended up being the father of a kid that my friend beat up just 2 weeks b4 the kid was shot and killed..and the father.

My friend has become quite paranoid lately and thinks everyone is out to get him. After finding out that his phone lines were being tapped he nearly lost it. He sleeps with two daggers across his chest and says hes been having weird dreams with rodents or some crap.

I too have been having weird dreams about him lately..like his dreams are infesting mine. One dream..he had a bunch of people after him and was killing them with some white light he shot out from his hands. His mother also has been having dreams about him with dragons.

The more I look into it..the more this series freaks me out. I may or may not read it...but after seeing all the posts here..I just thought I would like to give a little insight myself.

heronblade: 2003-09-22

LOL. see i told you RJ wasn't writing fiction ;)

Jiana: 2003-09-23

Kaream.... very interesting post you had there. :) May I suggest that you and your friend check out www.coasttocoastam.com? It's a website for a radio show hosted by George Norry. They cover topics from the supernatural to the extra-terrestrial. Some of it's crap, but some of it's pretty interesting and intriguing, and you and your friend may find some links there to other credible sites.

moridin68: 2003-09-23

I feel the need to respond to the quote given by Kaream Inmagenes. I'm not trying to insult anyone hear, but I feel that there's something we all need to remember. I'm going to quote what is written in every single work of FANTASY, that happens to appear on the title page of every WoT book: "This is a work of fiction. All the characters and events portrayed in this book are fictitious, and any resemblance to real people or events is purly coincidental." This is the kind of crap that gave fantasy (namely Dungeons and Dragons) a bad reputation with a lot of people. I think you all know what I'm talking about (devil worship and what not). I know none of that is going on here, but as I've always said, there are just some people who take a game or a book a little too far. Those are the people that truly worry me.

If you start thinking that forms of entertainment are real (i.e. D and D, WoT, the Matrix), then there's a good possiblity that you have problems that you need to work out. I'm sorry if I've insulted anyone, because that truly isn't my intent.

Rand Therin alThor: 2003-09-23

That is very interesting Kaream (nice name by the way..haha) I am realy interested in hearing more about you and yur friends. Perhaps you will keep us posted or at least me. I have read the series and know it like the back of my hand. I may be able to help u out. A question for you..I am a dice player( I play 4, 5, 6..btw) I am curious as to whether or not you play..and if so...have you ever rolled 666, 6 times in a row?. Seems like a bad omen to me...and if anyone were to roll that...it would be you or yur friend from the sound of it.

Cor Shan: 2003-09-23

Does he have herons on his palms?

Rhuark: 2003-09-23

HAHAHA ... Wow the almighty Lord Dragon is using his power to cheat at cards... U could have at least made up something a bit more interesting than that.

Rand Therin alThor: 2003-09-24

I think I am gonna have to go along the lines with the 7th Age theory. We are more technologically advanced than both the 2nd and 3rd Age...just not as advanced in the One Power...perhaps cause it was lost sometime after the 4th Age. It is rediscovered at the end of the 7th Age...as to have a climatical ending to the wheel. I also believe that the 7th Age is the age of Interplanetary Warfare. With all those damn crop circles showing up everywhere...something is deffinately up here. Perhaps the Dragon of this age..he who rediscovers the One Power(or remembers how to use the One Power via personality manifestations of his 6 previous lives..with Rand and Lews included in them. He will lead the forces of Light in the ultimate final battle where he must defend not only against the Darkone's forces or Devil in our case...he will also defend against any human rebels and aliens aswell. This in my mind would be one hell of a show, a great way to have an ending to the wheel. And then we'll go back and do it all over again. The wheel weaves as the wheel wills and that very well may be what the wheel wishes to will;(9 words that start with w in one sentence..haha) Ok, bad sense of humor..but anywho....Direwolf also originally posted some things that would fit into the whole thing..like the creation of Ogier. I'm sure with a little more research...we can find out exactly how the end of the age will be...but here is one theory.

Kaream Inmagenes: 2003-09-25

I didn't come here to be made fun of. I don't believe in no one power or whatever you call it either. All I know is, my friend isn't normal and is getting worse as time goes on. I thought that perhaps I could get some help here but instead, I get mocked. If you don't believe what I say, thats your opinion and you're entitled to it. But I ask you to be a little more open minded on these things and start learning to see past your own nose. Just because you can't do something, doesn't mean it can't be done. It is impossible for me to run a 100 meter dash in 9 seconds, but does that mean it can't be done by someone else? It's not like my friend is completely unique here, I have heard of other cases of supernatural abilities, but my friend is the only case I have seen first hand. I still have a hard time believing it myself, but I know what I saw. It is my understanding that this is a site for discussion...not for insulting. If you want to make it an insulting site, by all means, go right ahead. We can all sit here and insult each other, but I don't think that will go over well with the site administrators. Thank you to those who have taken what I said into consideration, your advice may e helpful. And to comment on the dice question, I do play 4,5,6 but I never rolled 666. My friend has though...but every time he does..I beat him by rolling a 4,5,6. I rolled that at least 6 times in a row if that counts for anything.

Rhuark: 2003-09-25

Kaream, I'm not trying to insult you or anything man but what kind of help did you expect to find on this site?

We're only here to discuss the books.

I have to agree with Moridin68 on this one. I'm not saying it didnt happen or anything but by the sounds of it you need help man and this isnt the place to get it.

Jiana: 2003-09-25

Kaream, I don't think anyone was specifically trying to insult you... as a matter of fact, one of the posts actually mentioned that insult was not his intent. Your friend needs to find a psychiatrist or some other professional who is open minded and may be able to recommend a parapsychologist. The website I mentioned in my response to your first post actually may have some info for you... I haven't been there in a while, so I am not sure.

Korell: 2003-09-26

Hopefully it gets posted but i put up a new theory about what i think could be and why i think that the Age Of Science is actually the 7th age lets just say a age does not HAVE to end with a cataclysmic event

brigitta: 2003-11-19

hehee... this is going to anger you all... maybe randland occurres right before LoTR, then it would all click together- the loss of the one power- elves leaving the middleland, all the wizards called back to wherever they came from or some such nonsense. I know you probably want to box my ears by now, but wouldn't it be grand?

Khyprus: 2004-06-14

I dont know of the first age but the secont age(AoL) have had to last for tens of thousands years. A civilization with normal ppl having 300years long lives and channelers with little under 1000 has to be very old if it doesnt remember war. In the series and in the BWB its said that the ppl of the AoL didnt know the word "war" and had to rediscover it quick.

Callandor: 2004-06-14

** I dont know of the first age but the secont age(AoL) have had to last for tens of thousands years. A civilization with normal ppl having 300years long lives and channelers with little under 1000 has to be very old if it doesnt remember war.**

I don't think so. 6000 years without war, with a almost perfect utopia... people would forget war within 6 generations, I think. So 3600 years roughly for strong channelers to die out and replaced. Heck, 5000 years would be more then enough.

lunaris888: 2011-09-16

False assumption. RJ already confirmed that the gleeman tales conferred to the first age (The war between Mosk and Elsbet the queen of everything and the great Lenn and his daughter) are references to events from our own history, Moscow and the cold war with England and John Glenn and Sally Ryde. In the lore of WOT, the first age is most assuredly our age, during which time Portal stones are somehow created and the one power is discovered.

The one power is strong and consistent in the whole Second Age, with latent OP being able to create standing waves of power that people and ter'angreal can tap into. This means that somehow in this lore, we would have to "break" the block or whatever it is on the latent one power, or maybe tap into the one power thats already there. Possibly a mutation or some scientific breakthrough that allows us to utalize this latent energy in the universe. Also someone has to figure out how to make stones capable of utilizing that latent OP to teleport people to and fro before the Second Age dawns. Not sure what marked the entrance into the Second Age. It's likely that the seventh age ended in some cataclysmic catastrophe that obliterated any signs of previous civilizations and sent humanity back into a spiral of non-civilization for it to match the historical data we have. It's possible that multiple ages had a hand in this.]

/nerd