1
Tamyrlin: 2003-10-02
Okay. First, why do you suggest that the end of each age does not require a cataclysmic event? We know the third Age will end with such an event, and we know the end of the second Age was also marked with such an event? I can't prove that our Age wasn't the 7th Age; there are a few quotes that suggest that artifacts from "our age" came from the age before the Age of Legends, but I don't think they are specific enough. The problem I have with the concept of ages isn't the cataclysmic event, which I still think does end each age, instead, I don't believe each Age has a specific length of time. We don't know how long the Age of Legends was, and we aren't led to believe that there is a cap of time per age. So, couldn't the First Age have encompassed tens of thousands of years? Something in the seventh Age appears to occur to give reason for a recycling, in my opinion; you are suggesting that the discovery of the OP is the reason for the recycling? I don't know, that would mean that the OP isn't know to exist in a previous Age, so sometime between the fourth and sixth Age, the knowledge of the OP is lost?
2
Mairashda: 2003-10-02
why, the discovery of the true source and channeling would certainly be a cataclysmic event. think, what such a discovery would have on our society: most technology rendered obsolete, new elites forming, non-channelers out of envy turning against channelers... the world would surely be broken and begun anew.
3
Caramoor: 2003-10-02
I think it is possible that the world could lose knowledge of the one power. Who can tell the effects of any cataclysm that brings an end to an age. Isn't possible that an event could occur that would basically encompass the entire world in a Stedding? Especially with ter'angreal like the Chodan Dal. Thus the one power is lost and rediscovered in a "Scientific Age" that ends with a cataclysm that shatters the stedding shell, in a nuclear fallout or some other technological monstrosity gone wild.
I believe the fourth age will this scientific age. RJ drops too many hints that the nature of the world is moving that way. Rand insists on building schools for inventors and scientists who wish to develop new marvels. These are being created without the use of the OP. A steam engine, a telescope, etc. The existance of stedding.
Also, I hate to compare RJ to other writers, but the fantasy realm always seems to be dealing with a transition from magical to practical or scientific. With Tolkien, it is a movement of the elves from Middle Earth to humans claiming dominion, magic passing from the world. Shakespeare's Tempest involves the passing of Prospero and magic from the world. Excalibur references how Merlin and his kind are passing.
To me, this is what RJ is leading up to. Also, the writings we see from the fourth age seem to be somewhat mythological in nature, like the stories cannot be taken at face value, much as the stories from our mythology cannot be taken as such. Even bible stories are interpreted as meaning something other than stated. The quotes from the fourth age tend to have a religious zeal to them and offer reverence and slight disbelief to them.
I believe that the fourth age is the scientific age. The passing of magic to practicality. I also think that this (4th) age will end with a cataclysm that may shatter the stedding shell, but will likely bring about the fall (extinction)of humanity.
Even our world has ages where humans do not inhabit it. And RJ does have fossils of dinosaurs in Tanchico. Very similar to those of our world.
4
Laguna Loire: 2003-10-02
I'm a little confused here on the time thing. Our plannet is estimated at 4 billion years old..we have records of life that have lived millions of years ago..we as humans have lived a few thousand years...where is the beginning of the age here..and how long before the end? I also don't recall any info about there being life before humans in the space between the 2nd and 3rd age. There is a cataclysmic event marking the end of the 2nd age and Randland era begins 3000 yrs after the 2nd Age. That means there was no time for prehistoric life, no dinosaurs or anything. The 2nd Age had nothing about prehistoric life either.
Our history shows that we have records of life long before our time. It would then seem to me that we would be the 1st age. $ billion years after the birth of the planet. Millions of years after the first sings of life on earth, humans are created. After several thousand years...we go to the 2nd age..the Age of Legends. So someone in this age will discover the OP marking the end of The Age of Tech..going into the Age of Legends. The age where technology and the One Power peak. The begining of the Age of Legends isn't talked about too much. Some referances in Randland stories seem to refer to things that have happened in our time. ex. landing on the moon.
So the end of the 1st age? begining of 2nd age, doesn't have to be the end of the World. It is the time that the One Power is discovered. It could also be discovered in a way that brings a cataclysmic event, it can go either way. The begining of the Age of Legends isn't documented nor the end of the 1st age, so we don't know if it was a smooth transition or not.
5
Shadar Darei: 2003-10-02
I think there's reason in a lot of what your saying and I agree that not every age has to end in cataclysm, but are you also saying that Rand's age has yet to happen? If not whose to say if Lews Therin would be born again back into his age as himself. Basically I was wondering if you think the Wheel repeats systematically rather than spontaeniously.
6
Korell: 2003-10-03
Tam you ask "Okay. First, why do you suggest that the end of each age does not require a cataclysmic event?"
Why does it have too? Just because 2 ages ended in cataclysm does not mean that every age has too truly there is no precidence either way.
But you say you dont think that we would lose the OP in only 2 ages you contradict yourself by saying we really dont know how long each age is because there is no specified lenght here is an example
The Egyptions built Pyramids (or so we assume) and The Egyptions could mummify bodies and do many other things long before modern science yet it was science all that was lost from the time they were doing that until the last 20 years so saying somthing cannot be lost in a short amount of time is not really a valid agument and we have no idea if they had a cataclymic event to change the shape of the things they did
Mairashda you state "why, the discovery of the true source and channeling would certainly be a cataclysmic event."
True enough however i dont belive that in its roots that it would be so people would not imeadiatly have the opinion of non trust and such things because the people able to do these things would only be learning how to do these things more likly people would see them as miracles it would not be until later that people would become suspicious of course it could always go the other way which would support your idea and that is that everyone would be calling these "Miracle Workers" Heratics and burn them at the stake "Witch Trial"
All and all here is the most likly thing as far as us finding out we will read and read and read and about this particular subject never find out RANFO LOL
7
Anubis: 2003-10-03
huhwah? the wheel of time is a circly thing... which means that theres always human type people... and tam, the industrial revolution certainly marked what could be considerd a new "age". would you consider that to be cataclysmic?
8
Tamyrlin: 2003-10-03
Korell, I agree that the length of each Age is undertermined, so it is possible that the OP is lost somewhere between the fourth and the sixth Age.
9
Korell: 2003-10-04
Not to smash my own theory any but
It is possible that the OP will never be lost AS have found that they need to start to procreate more so the ability is not taken out of society all togeather it could be that Science and the OP coexist in the ages after this age with Rands schools and all there are infinite possabilities perhaps the OP was lost at the end of the 7th age and thats the event that starts the turning over however if there are only 7 ages whatever ends the 7th age would probly be cataclysmic maybe the 7th age ends with a nuclear war and humanity dies off and the first age is Man being reborn really this is probly most logical because i think the 1st age would be the begining anew so yes now i am debunking my own theory in part but if you cannot contiue to evolve a theory then there is no real reason to it is there
10
Caramoor: 2003-10-05
**The wheel of time is a circly thing... which means that theres always human type people... and tam, the industrial revolution certainly marked what could be considerd a new "age". would you consider that to be cataclysmic? **
The circly types doesn't need humans to create an age lace. It needs the OP and lives and events. The one power will be there. Other creatures can supply the necesary threads to form a pattern.
11
Therilon: 2003-10-05
Korell, what would end each age if not a cataclysmic event?
12
Caramoor: 2003-10-06
I don't mean to answer for Korrell, but I think several things could herald the end of an Age. A sudden explosion in technology. Rediscovery (or discovery?) of one power. The fall of an empire. Discovery of fire. The end of an age is more of a transition in my mind. It doesn't necessarily have to end with a cataclysm.
13
Korell: 2003-10-06
Therilon
Well as Anubis stated the Industrial revolution could certainly be considered the start of a new age but personaly the Discovery of the One Power would certainly change everyones way of life and that could potentialy become cataclysmic but that is not a definite i see the changing of ages and an event that is going to change the lives of everyone which yes a Cataclysmic event would do so but it does not have to be somthing negetive it can be somthing Positive such as the Industrial revolution. I think it is very morbid to think that the only way life can make a huge change is by a force of massive destruction not to mention very limited thinking. besides which i did explain what could constitue an age change in my thoery e.g. one power discovery and the mastering of the OP it makes sense for people to be called heretics at first but it also makes sense they may not learn to master for hundreds of years the amount of power they have initially could be low and gain strength through the generations so it could take a long time to master it.
14
Callandor: 2003-10-06
To me, every Age is simply a build up, through WHATEVER means of procreation, to an innevitable battle at the end of that Age; whatever Age's Last Battle.
Discovery of the One Power, Industrial Revolution, AoL, all of these are just means for people to live longer or better so that they can participate in that Last Battle.
All the seven Ages end with a Last Battle; everything is just a means to an ends.
15
Rhodric: 2003-10-06
Callandor, is the 'last battle' that you believe ends each age a battle with the DO or the DO's forces?
what is the point of a last battle if it's just two human armies fighting for territory?
16
Callandor: 2003-10-07
**Callandor, is the 'last battle' that you believe ends each age a battle with the DO or the DO's forces?**
The DO and his armies.
17
Mairashda: 2003-10-08
the dark one does not necessarily have to play a role in every age, just as there does not have to be a last battle in the deadliest sense of the word:
there was no bore in the first age.
even human armies don't always fight over territory (channelers and their supporters vs. anti-channelers?)... the one thing that is sure is that the outcome of the last battle significantly shapes the next age.
18
Callandor: 2003-10-08
**there was no bore in the first age.**
But there could've been another way that the DO was able to touch the world, and it was cut off again to end the First Age. We can't say that the DO doesn't effect each Age just because we are never told ; and by that we can't say for sure that he does.
19
Rhuark: 2003-10-08
IMO the end of the 7th Age coincides with the end of existence and the 1st Age begins again with the Creator sealing the DO in his prison and the creation of the world.
I think that our Age is the 1st Age and that the discovery of the OP brings on the 2nd Age (Age of Legends).
Is there any length of time given for how long the Age of Legends went for?
I dont think each Age has to be for eg 5000 years long, it's as long as it needs to be. Cos if my little suggestion is to work the first Age would have to have gone for like a billion years haha. Oh well.
20
Capiam: 2003-10-13
I don't understand why people have such a problem with the age scheme RJ has. He has repeatedly dropped hints to the effect that the our history has occured in randland, in a previous age (merk and mosk throwing spears of fire across the ocean?). This leads me to believe that there is a time where science rules, and channeling is nonexistant. After the discovery of channeling we get the age of legends. Remember the jo-cars? Shock-lances? Flying cars and rifles, as well as channeling. Once the dark one gets freed, everything goes to hell in a handbasket, and after the breaking, you can kiss higher science and tech goodbye. Which leaves us with current day randland. Seeing as time is a wheel, we can naturally assume at some point channeling will be lost, and science will rule again. Rand's schools are the first start towards that new age.
21
DaisharMalkier: 2003-10-13
Our age may be the seventh and it fits in with my theroy that if the bore was once whole than we must have fixed it, then all the OP wielders either were lynched, forgotten, or they just forgot the power. Then to compensate, science happens, and they find out about the one power, then Lanfear incarnate comes along and experiments with the True Power and makes the bore.and it goes on forever
22
Anubis: 2003-10-16
alright guys. i think your taking this in the wrong direction. i dont believe that rj has any specific age in mind for us. we arent the first, we arent the seventh. the reason he uses these refrences, is to show how stories change over time. It makes the wheel of time much more plausable and real that way. Thom himself illustrates this time and time again, and the book as well. One common theme is that stories change with every telling. this has been illustrated time and time again, and the mosk and meerik giants throwing spears of fire across the world is just another way of doing that. RJ does not want the WOT applied to reality, its his world and he just borrows from many places to create somthing better.
23
brigitta: 2003-11-19
but if the time (and the world) is cyclic, then there MUST have been a bore before and will be again, regardless of the Creator recreating the world after a cataclysm in the 7th age, or whatever. therefore DO must be trapped in time, not earth.
Modern science has proved that there is no time at -237C, when the atoms freeze and there is no motion, because time is the sequence of moments, but what about before and after -237?? is there time then? if there is, then DO can never be freed and that makes me sleep a lot better tonight.
24
Korell: 2003-11-19
Time is somthing that is only precived time does not really exist in the fation that we comprehend it like much of the univerese things continuly change but our only way to comprehend these things is by applying time to them. The quote " The wisest man is the man who understands that he knows nothing." i know it is not a direct quote but the meaning gets through i think truly the man who realizes that what he knows does not touch the surface of truth is the wisest man we cannot comprehend the universe in it truth so we create things that reflect the universe in a manner in which we can understand them even if they only tell us the partial truth
25
brigitta: 2003-11-24
yes, Socrates's idea is good, but although he said that the only thing he knew was that he knew nothing, he committed his life to proving everybody else stupid, thus proving himself superior to them. While we're discussing ancient greecs, there's one (I think Alchimedes, but I'm not sure), according to whom man is tied up and sitting in a cave facing inwards and while the real ideas dance outside he can only see their shadows flickering on the wall. These shadows are real to him, but distorted from their true form and they exist whether or not the man sees them. So the thing the man thinks is e.g. a chair, is really a shadow of the idea of a chair. I think the same should apply to time as well. We may not perceive it as it really is but it is regardless of us. It is the same queation as: "if a tree falls in a forest and noone hears it, is there sound?"
26
brigitta: 2004-01-11
It wasn't Alchimedes, it was Plato. stupid mistake, but the thouht came through anyway.
27
haertchen: 2005-02-24
I have always personally assumed that our age is diametrically opposite the one in WoT. I have had to think seriously about why, though. I don't have proof, but the following are food for thought:
There are memories of out age in their world and memories of their age in our world. It is hard to judge, but both seem to be skewed about equally. This is related to RJ's theme of how tradition is bent with time; it seems that the best "positioning" for best viewing of this skewing is on opposite sides of the wheel.
The age that is opening may have some relationship to our age (e.g. the steam engine) but that could just as easily be a red herring. There are other changes (such as Min's viewings, the sniffer, Wolfbrothers) that indicate that WoT may be coming into a completely different age altogether. (I don't remember the quote location, but I seem to remember RJ saying that these things indicate huge changes on the horizon---and they aren't headed toward a world of science.) Or maybe all the ages are being temporarily mixed because the world is going through a huge transition (this is definitely a huge RAFO. Or maybe RANFO).
If this is correct, though, then our age would be either the sixth or seventh age. So maybe the OP is correct.
28
Nine Moons: 2005-02-25
Okay, first off, THIS IS THE FIRST AGE!! RJ has said so, at least a few times, and it is very unlikely for him to make the same mistake several times. So, the cataclysm of this Age is the rediscovery of OP, and everyone has a good idea what happens to about oh, Tarmon Gaidon.
OP is needed for the 4th Age, because the Aes Sedai are coming out of a decline and even Min won't be unique. (RJ said so) As for 5, 6, and 7, I am willing to bet that the OP died out towards this end of the three, as we still have knowledge of MAGIC, it just isn't OP, and there isn't much else that explains this.
Not much proof, just stuff that RJ said, but realistic nonetheless, and it fits with all the evidence we have.
29
haertchen: 2005-02-25
Nine Moons: Could you find a quote on that statement?
I'm all with you on the one power still being needed, Min, etc.
However, I think that our age was supposed to end with a nuclear holocaust (Mosc and Merk fighting with lances of fire..., or something like that). Perhaps the holocaust caused mutations, the OP gene came up again...
30
Mindl: 2006-10-01
I would also agree that we live in the First Age. Thom talking about Merk and Mosc (America and Moscow) tossing lances of fire across the world has always made believe so. I think the end of the First Age is the rediscovery of the OP. It could be that something occurs during TG that weakens the connection of Saidar and Saidin which leads to channeling the OP dissapearing from the world only to be found again at the end of the First Age.
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TamyrlinsRing: 2011-08-27
I'm a little late off the mark, but i just want to enquire if anyone has included the period of time where dinosaurs ruled the earth? I would have to include this looooong period of time as an age, perhaps the longest age, and the reason why even an artifact has not survived a full turning of the wheel in countless turns... If the dinasours weren't able to destroy everything surely nothing much could survive millions of years of weather. Id also think that perhaps one age (probably the one preceeding any dinosaurs) would be as close to lifeless as the planet ever comes to. Just a thought...
32
Ashaman Leyrann Gaidin: 2011-08-28
@Tamyrlinsring
I think that is thinking a bit too much about it...
33
wantfear: 2011-08-28
The age after the age of the dinosaurs would be the age of mammals, i.e. the age where men run with the wolves. shit, imagining a velociraptor in the WoT universe scares me for some reason.
