Tamyrlin: 2003-11-17

Okay, this is a good topic post, but I don't think you have enough proof to get me to lean your way. Rand is one ta'veren, one hero among many, and I don't believe that he is strong enough to break the Wheel of Time; it has withstood him and he incarnations for many turnings. Jordan is writing this along the lines of free choice within a cyclical philosophy. From the Fourth Age poetry we read in one of the books, it would seem to me that Rand will not deviate from the course he is being led to by the Wheel.

Korell: 2003-11-17

I had a similar theory about this that was only a thought but The WoT is not the same as the Hindu Philosophy because the pattern does change over each turning if only in small ways it does change over time the best example is that with each turning new heros are added to the Heros of the horn

Zaela Sedai: 2003-11-17

I am not so sure of this, the Wheel is the one thing that will withstand anything that happens so long as the DO does not win.

"There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time."

And I believe that even if the DO won TG and made the world in his image, the Wheel would still exsist and turn. Any thoughts on this?

Sensir: 2003-11-17

it would seem that the wheel w/e it is could withstand the breaking and all tunrings but didnt htey htink that the white tower was unbreakable the forsaken sealed the selas unbreakable. My point is jordan is human and it is human nature to pursue achieve and enjoy change. RJ is achieving change in the way he likes his own world. That is what allo great authors do. Tolkien pursued it when the nations united. a change?. I guess im just second guessing but what if rand didnt break the wheel but what if he destroyed the dark one. Which is the reason for the wheel to start a new age. Then people would shape the world without the DO to do anything and thus bringing about change.

Callandor: 2003-11-17

**Ok why is this the last battle if this battle has been fought a hundred times before? IT's the last because Rand will and co will do something to end the cyclic nature of time allowing humanity a chance at freedom.**

No, the Last Battle is a name given by Men to a prophacized time of need and war. To them, they would need something so terrible that the thing they feared most would be their helper and they would see no way to return from that or survive; hence, the Last Battle. This is not true. It is like standing on a hill and standing on the ground. You stand on the ground, and you can only see the hill, it would seem to be the end. You stand on the hill, and see that there is much much more beyond it.

sandz69: 2003-11-18

The opening paragraph of each book says "there are neither beginings nor endings to the turning of the wheel of time. But this was a beginning" this quote shows that something different is happening why else would RJ put it in.

This is more of a question why are Perrin and Mat so important to Rand winning the Last battle but there is no mention of them in the 4th age writings? Maybe them being involved may have something to do with the breaking

natas: 2003-11-18

The DO made clear to Damandred that even he, (the DO), can't live outside of time. Which could mean, that he can't live outside of the pattern. And we know that the true power, when used to travel, slices the pattern. Or creates a hole in the pattern; so there must be existance outside the pattern of some sorts. The pattern coninues; the wheel weaving as it will, in its cyclic nature otherwise.

It's possible that the thing within Rand, that the DO fears, is possibly the ability to use the true power separate from, or in addition to, the DO. So it could be possible for Rand to somehow set the DO outside the pattern, outside the wheel itself.

Like with many others, I've had this same thought about the Last Battle actually being the last battle. But I don't think we have enough information as of yet from the books.

The Leveler: 2003-11-18

I think Rand will pull an Alric and break the great cycle. There is just too much leading up to this time being the all or nothing showdown.

Death Of Turkeys: 2003-11-18

i had a thought! (i know its rare, but, it happens sometimes!)

What About, in the last battle, rands draws a suicidal amount of Saidin to himself and unleashes a HUGE bar of Bale fire at the DO, like one big enough to undo all of the stuff hes done. Rand believes hes going to die, he thinks it, he says it, sooo, mabye suicide is the best option. plz let me know if there are any probs with this theory!!!!!

brigitta: 2003-11-19

but that is really sad, i mean, if Rand makes time linear, then all we have is this miserable one life, that lasts for some decades, no hope of righting our wrongs and all there is to do then, is get drunk beyond sanity.

Korell: 2003-11-19

Just a few comments

sandz69

"The opening paragraph of each book says "there are neither beginings nor endings to the turning of the wheel of time. But this was a beginning" this quote shows that something different is happening why else would RJ put it in. "

You have to remember the wheel of time is ever changing it is not exactly the same every single time as i said in my above post to quote AH "with each turning the wheel adds to our numbers" that means that the heros of the horn are continuly changing by adding more just as somone posted on my own theory about this same idea in each turning there could be major diffrences but the basics are still the same there is a bore to be drilled a dragon to patch it the DO breaks free and the Dragon Reborn seals him away until the next time a hole is bore into his prison no other details really need to remain exactly the same the nations will not have the same names the people will not have the same names

also you mention why people resembling Mat and Perrins positions are not mentioned in the 4th age writings

Many times in history are the true heros forgotten many times are names written down wrong maybe they did not play in what the people who wrote the 4th age writings an important enough role to write it down for them they see the Dragon Reborn as a figure head he was telling mat what the best battle plan was even though that is not the case history records what it wants to not neccesarily what is fact look at our own history if you take a history text book from 20 years ago and compare it to a text book now there are going to be diffrences here is the best example i can give is Who rode with Paul Revere? most people do not know that somone even rode with him let alone their names see my point?

natas

"It's possible that the thing within Rand, that the DO fears, is possibly the ability to use the true power separate from, or in addition to, the DO. "

The TP come from the DO it is corupt it represents everything that is bad it corupts the body and the Mind and quite possibly the soul because it comes from the Evil that is the DO

Death Of Turkeys "What About, in the last battle, rands draws a suicidal amount of Saidin to himself and unleashes a HUGE bar of Bale fire at the DO, "

As far as i have seen mentioned and quoted even if the DO has the ability to touch the pattern he will not be able to be BFed it sounds more like he is incorporeal and thefore not subject to things that affect the physical realm besides BF erases a thread from that point in the pattern from what we know the DO exists outside of the pattern but is imprisoned within it. it circulates around him without actually touching him and thus entraps him

Jeff237: 2003-11-19

I'm with "The Death of Turkeys" on this one. I posted the same thought in predictions.

Callandor: 2003-11-19

**"What About, in the last battle, rands draws a suicidal amount of Saidin to himself and unleashes a HUGE bar of Bale fire at the DO,"**

The DO and the Creator exist OUTSIDE the Pattern. Because of that, they have no threads to destroy, and no body to attack. They cannot be balefired or killed in any way.

Blight Blasted: 2003-11-19

I thought the DO wanted to do that. I don't think Rand will. But I don't see how Rand could unless he turned to the DO, and maybe not even then, if Ishamael was not lying when he said Rand had in previous lives.

Zaela Sedai: 2003-11-19

Also, if you used that much saidin to bale fire who knows how much of the pattern would be unraveled. I don't think it's a possibility. Not to mention the fact that the DO is outside of the pattern anyways.

kikyo: 2003-11-19

sandz69 wrote:

"The opening paragraph of each book says "there are neither beginings nor endings to the turning of the wheel of time. But this was a beginning" this quote shows that something different is happening why else would RJ put it in. "



My take on that is that he is saying that there is no point in time that is THE beginning or THE end, but there are points in time that are beginnings and end to various stories within the pattern and the beginning of each book is one of those beginnings.

In other words, it is not THE beginning, but it is A beginning.

Anaiyella: 2003-11-20

Now I don't want to try comparing the greatness of WoT to anything, but I think it is really similar to The Matrix. Now I think that the wheel will survive just about anything, and that it is likely that this is not the "last" battle, but that it is "a" last battle. Maybe Rand will win this thing, and there will just be another time of great learning and peace like before the hole in the pattern was opened to let the DO in. Just a thought :)

SDog: 2003-11-20

Seeker, this is almost exactly what I've been saying for years now! Woohoo...someone thinks the same way I do! I used to get in long arguments with of Frenzy and Bela and the Tamyrlin about this.

My reasoning is also based somewhat in the Hindu conceptions of rebirth and freedom. As long as the Wheel exists in its current form, the same things will keep happening over and over again. Rand will realize that, in order to truly free the world from the DO, he needs to end that cycle. If he seals up the DO, then breaks the Wheel, it's possible that the DO will never again be able to get out, because people won't be reborn to free him.

The other possibility is that Rand does not break the Wheel, per se, but merely "removes it from the axle". Metaphorically, if the Wheel is rolling forward instead of spinning in place, time will become linear. That's a nice out for those of you who think the Wheel to be unbreakable.

Yay...I am excited that at least one person thinks this idea to be credible.

natas: 2003-11-20

The Wheel weaving shouldn't add new people. But recycling those who are already there.

Heros of the horn can be added, but it's people who prove themselves; who are already in existence.

How does this explain Shadar Haren?

A Mydraal that the Chosen don't even know about.

WoTheShadow: 2003-11-22

I just noticed a couple of things and I wanted to correct them. From everything I've ever learned about fantasy, especially in this type of series it's that there is a canstant battle between good and bad, in this case, light and shadow. The DO cannot be destroyed, it would throw off the whole balance and that just can't happen. And that is above and beyond the fact that all evidence in the books points to the fact that the DO is like the Creator in that he cant be destroyed. Maybe that's why he is imprissoned rather than destroyed? Anyway... I maintain he can't die. Also... it was said that Mat and Perrin arent mentioned in the 4th age poetry i believe it was called. Well recall is COT that Noal recites a bit of the prophesies of the dragon that CLEARLY refer to Mat and Tuon. So anyway.. thats my two cents. As for my opinion on the theory, I think it would be totally awesome, but i think it would be just a little to fanciful to actually work.

Korell: 2003-11-22

you ask about how the Forsaken never knew about SH well until Aginor made trollocs there were not any you might argue that in the last turning he would have created them but i would argue back the turnings of the wheel are similar but not exactly the same maybe in the last turning instead of trollocs and myrdal they were dog and cat men what stays the same is the battle between light and dark but in the last turning i doubt that the soul of LTT was in the body of Rand it was a similar situation with the same soul but not the same names or places and also the other explanation of SH could be 1 of 2 things

1. the DO created him himself

2. he has been around all along in a stasis box secretly created for his now purposes

the most damaging thing to your argument about this though is that fact that these particular forsaken have only been around since the AOL not since the last 3rd age so if he was around in the last turning they would not know anything about it in the first place

Great Captain: 2003-11-23

A few thoughts on the CONCEPT of time.

The one flaw with the idea that Rand and the LB will change the flow of time from cyclic to linear is flawed becasue of what time is. Time in and of itself doesn't exist - this is the basis of the philosophy of cyclical time. Time is mereley a human measure and not something that the universe at large plays with or cares about. Time itself , the concept of it, just is and can never actually be defined in terms of cylic or linear until applied to a human perspective - a safegaurd from the imensity of infinity. Nothing is forever, except forever itself.

Cliff-Hagard: 2003-11-23

I'm not sure if this is correct and someone right me if im wrong here but did not somewhere in the book it referred to people thinking they were the creater and destroying something that could not be fixed????

Caramoor: 2003-11-24

I beleive those were thoughts about the use of balefire. They beleived they almost unraveled the pattern and destroyed the wheel.

And the wheel is by no means permanent or indistructible. The DO could destroy the wheel, isn't that its (the DO)whole goal?

Zaela Sedai: 2003-11-24

I've already mentioned this but if the DO won I don't think the wheel would break. I think that the world would be made in his image and still be cyclic in nature.

Death Of Turkeys: 2003-11-25

heres another one for u to argue about!

i believe the last words of the last book will be something similar to:

"there are neither beginings nor endings to the turning of the wheel of time. But this was a ending"

feed back is a good thing

Archie: 2003-12-03

For what it's worth, here's my take on the Last Battle.

If the DO has always fought and lost at the end of the 3rd Age, and assuming he's bright enough to realise this and remember from full turn to full turn, he's got to be thinking about stopping the Wheel otherwise he always gets bound again. If he breaks the Wheel then "destiny" is freed up so he can finally win. But it also means that he can finally be gotten rid of rather than just bound again. It's a risk, but remember he has got the DO's Own Luck(TM).

This ignores the "if the DO gets out on any world he get's out on all etc" statement from TGH.

In a similar vein, I don't reckon you can BF the DO. BF burrns away the victim from the pattern, but the DO isn't part of the Pattern. He tries to touch it, and only just succeeds. He apart from it in the same way as the Creator.

BFing the Creator. Now *there's* a paradox.

Feel free to shout.

Vimmzy: 2004-02-06

so then, iirc in TGH in the little scene where or most lovely dragon reborn got his first heron branded into his palm, the DO said something like this. "We have fought many times you and i, this time is different. if iwin i will break the wheel of time and change the world. The world will be changed whoever wins this last battle" or something like that.. that kinda hints that if rand wins the wheel will be whole if our most lovely little darky wins the wheel will break and we will all live a very sad last second of out pathetic lives. or something.. maybe the beer is speaking for me but hey..!

Callandor: 2004-02-06

Here is the real quote:

**TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 15 - Kinslayer

"I have a thousand strings tied to you, Kinslayer, each one finer than silk and stronger than steel. Time has tied a thousand cords between us. The battle we two have fought-do you remember any part of that? Do you have any glimmering that we have fought before, battles without number back to the beginning of Time? I know much that you do not! That battle will soon end. The Last Battle is coming. The last, Lews Therin. Do you really think you can avoid it? You poor, shivering worm. You will serve me or die! And this time the cycle will not begin anew with your death. The grave belongs to the Great Lord of the Dark. This time if you die, you will be destroyed utterly. This time the Wheel will be broken whatever you do, and the world remade to a new mold. Serve me! Serve Shai'tan, or be destroyed forever!"**

But again, Ishy doesn't know everything, and we have ben given no inclinaton that he can Foretell; so, his word is not final.

Hunkaweed: 2004-02-15

Just a few things I'd like to clear up.

First I don't think Rand will end up breaking the wheel of time. To quote the book. "The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again." To me, along with a few other things in the book, it sorts out a few points being disgussed. The first being that as the wheel of time is said to be a wheel with 7 spokes each representing an age, then 5 more ages must pass before the age of legends reappears. Seeing as the third age lasted 3-4000 years, I cannot remember if I read it but I have the feeling the age of Legends lasted about that long also, then a full turning of the wheel would be about 21-28000 years. This I think puts a stop to those who believe Rand will bring back the age of legends.

What does this have to do with the Breaking of the wheel?

We were told that the creator made the wheel and the pattern of ages. Therefore I dont think that a creation of the Creator, i.e. Rand Will be able to break what he made. We were also told that the last battle has been fought before, unfortunatly this came from the mouth of one of the Forsaken. However we do know that the Dark One wants to break free and remake the world in his Image. Therefore it's the DO that wants to break the nature of the wheel of time and the last battle is to stop him from doing just that. Rand is there to stop the DO from destroying the wheel.

charliec: 2004-02-20

I have been thinking along very similar lines to this idea, and the thought that the wheel could be broken either way does appeal to me:

*Ba'alzamon certainly thought it was possible, as has already been pointed out, and I'm pretty sure that he claimed that the DO had won 'last' battles in the past (but then presumably been defeated again since)

*Remember all that jazz about blinding the eye of the world and slaying the great serpent? This is what that was talking about, and even the better educated people who heard it were aghast at the idea... something new is afoot, this is also shown up in occasional differences- like having three chappies linked to the dragon instead of just one... that surprised everyone, good and bad.

*consider the temptation for the author to make this 'last' battle the one which is really worth talking about.

*also consider that the cyclical time thing isn't all that convincing considering the characters who supposedly espouse it... if they're going to be reborn in a better age a few thousand years down the line, what does a little D+D now matter (that's death and destruction, not dungeons and dragons!), none of them really buy into the mystic-let-it-all-go stuff, so why should we, or RJ?

I'm not saying that the Dark One will necessarily be destroyed (probably not possible for anyone except the creator), but in some way his effect on the pattern can be diminished. I don't agree with the idea that he and the creator have to stay balanced, and I'm fairly sure it's not stated in the book.

As for the thing about new souls + reincarnation... there's no reason why in a 'linear' history they shouldn't have reincarnation (silly though the idea is ;)), and in the current cyclical system we're only told that it's the norm for souls to be reborn... not that they can't be created (eg. Shaidar Haran) or eternally destroyed (which a few characters have been threatened with).

I don't think it'd be a depressing end, although there'd still be plenty of problems (ie. plenty of humans) just as before, but it would leave the series with potential for something new to happen, and that's always the best way to stop a book!

oniDahL: 2004-03-26

I really like this idea about the wheel being broken no matter how TG ends. it fits with all the small hints that say this will be a different TG. besides, everyone in Randland complains about not having the opportunity to choose their own path, but are forced by the pattern to do this and that(especially ta'veren). wouldn't it be great if rand put a stop to that?

and it seems like such a sad ending: rand thinks: i have just reimprisoned the DO, but hell in some thousand years he will be freed again and it will be party time again, and again, and again.

plus. if the time is linear, people will have to take more responsibility for their actions and people can do what they want for a change.

that at least is my opinion. don't think it will happen though. but I am convinced something will happen to the wheel, DO, pattern or something else which will maker this TG a special one.

Darren: 2004-03-26

Umm... no offense, but since the DO wants "to break the Wheel and remake Time in his own image" wouldn't the DO be winning the LB by this happening?

Also, reread Fel's arguments as to your literal interpretations of "the Last Battle" in LoC... he pretty much disregards your whole line of thought.

And since people are quoting the opening of every novel, I can't help but point out that EVERY ONE begins "In one Age, called the Third Age by some, AN AGE YET TO COME, an Age long past," everyone should KNOW from the beginning of the EoTW that the Wheel survives the series.

Aelfinn: 2004-03-26

***plus. if the time is linear, people will have to take more responsibility for their actions and people can do what they want for a change. ***

No, people still have to take responsibility. A PERSON was fated to drill the Bore, not specifically Mierin. If she and Beidomon (?) hadn't, someone else would.

And it's just the GENERAL IDEA that the Pattern controls, not every bloody detail.

Schneider: 2004-04-21

I have to agree with what has been said that the wheel will continue. It can't be broken.

Previously someone stated that Rand is to die during the last battle. I dont believe that this is true. It is said that in order to win the last battle he must die. This is not the same thing as dying during the last battle.

I believe that what is meant by "in order to live he must die" is basically a metaphor. It is quite possible the in order for Rand to live he has to give himself up to Lews Therin, and Lews Therin must give himself over to Rand. They must become one, much like the memories that Matt has taken as his own. Any comments towards this?

Callandor: 2004-04-21

**Previously someone stated that Rand is to die during the last battle. I dont believe that this is true....I believe that what is meant by "in order to live he must die" is basically a metaphor. It is quite possible the in order for Rand to live he has to give himself up to Lews Therin, and Lews Therin must give himself over to Rand. They must become one, much like the memories that Matt has taken as his own. Any comments towards this?**

But that is already happening; Rand has been taking on LTT's manerisms and ways since his memories and voice popped up for sure in TFOH.

soccerfrll: 2007-10-27

wow you are all wrong...

first of all, this instance of the third age is nothing special, its just another conflict between the light and dark and the wheel of time will not be broken, otherwise there wudnt be any poems from the fourth age.

secondly, rand wont fight or kill the do bc thats impossible. the do is infinately more powerful than any human and would instantly destroy the wheel as soon as he escaped, it says so in the books.

thirdly, the last battle will actually be a fight between rand and moridin. rand is the avatar for the light while moridin is the avatar for the shadow. the dr will once again give his life in the battle to defeat the shadows man and start another age.

in every age the do TRIES to escape but is thwarted by the dragon.

PillowFriends: 2007-11-07

***in every age the do TRIES to escape but is thwarted by the dragon.***

soccerfrll,

True, but as the DO is not bound by the Wheel, he may (and I stress the word, MAY) gain crucial knowledge each turning, each attempt to escape, which will eventually give him enough of an edge to beat the Dragon, who IS bound by the Wheel.

netizen: 2007-11-18

I really don't think that Rand will break the Wheel of Time, or set it free of its axle, or that he even can. There would need to be some way in which Pattern characters could exist outside the Pattern, and as they're all spun by the pattern, I don't see how that could work. There is no precendent in the philosophy of Randland for existing outside the Pattern, not even a notion of a Heaven/Hell equivalent.

The Wheel is not part of the Pattern, it exists outside, like the Creator and the DO, and therefore only something outside the Pattern could affect it. This is why the DO wants to get out of his prison, and why he must be contained - because he would destroy it all.

No WoT character can break the Wheel - it would be like a character in a book killing their own author - utterly surreal!

The philosophy of the Wheel weaving as the Wheel wills is just Randland Man's interpretation of things which are bigger than he is. If their philosophy is correct (and it is corroborated by the existence of the DO and what he says), then the basic construct of their universe cannot be broken without breaking the universe itself. The philosophy, on the other hand, can be changed. If Man comes to believe that there is no Wheel, that time is linear then to all intents and purposes it will be linear and Man will behave accordingly - without hope of salvation and rebirth. And then I think their world would look more like our world. And no one would read the books :p

Murandy: 2008-02-13

I agree that it is the ultimate last battle. It is up to Rand and a few others to my knowledge to either save or break the world again. The Dark Lord wants out or should i say his avatar wants to rule, Moridin. They dont want to spin the wheel off the axis but want complete rule. And in that respect if the creator is not as free as the DO then it will tip the scales. What if the Creator was sealed away from time and that is why she is not helping out Rand. Releasing the DO would undo time and everything would be a mess. The pattern would unravel and the world destroyed. The Portal Stones are the spokes of the wheels and eveytime you use a portal stone to go back in time or forward you spin the wheel eventually everything will get knotted in the pattern and it wont be able to fix it self, especially with all the tav'ern that are in the pattern right now causing knots. It would be a huge catastrophy. I think that the DO has to be sealed away from time and not being able to affect the pattern directly is the only answer. But then how do the Seal the DO, who is out of time but still affecting our time? The wheel must keep spinning or the Last Battle will be the last for the world.... as the prophecies say "Oh ye people of the world weep for your salvation..." THe salvation may be to destroy time....

mat 007 : 2012-02-24

Yes I agree with you that rand will break the wheel of time.One way he can do this is by using all the power available through Callandor and producing an immensely powerful Balefire on the DO, that shall not only destroy the DO but also burn so many threads of time, destroying so much time that the wheel of time shall itself break.

Kamaul: 2012-03-01

You can't destroy the DO with balefire. He has no thread, and since balefire only burns threads, he will be unaffected.

The only hint that we have ever had of destroying the DO is through the use of the Choedan Kal, both of which are destroyed.

Now, let me point this out. At the beginning of every book, it says "In one Age, called the Third Age by some, an Age yet to come, an Age long past..." From the Eye of the World, everyone should know that the Third Age would come again. Hence, the Wheel of Time will remain.