ow the Mirror worlds are used by the Wheel
by a dragonburned fool: 2004-01-16 | Not yet rated
This theory is an attempt to explain how the Wheel can detect turning points in lives and history, and how It can know when and how exactly to intervene for fixing the proper flow of the Pattern.
Here is presupposed, that the Wheel is a mechanism with relatively low degree of intelligence, actually a blind mechanism, regulated not by an privileged controlling system, but by a simple ballance. It is not the only possible way to understand how the Wheel controls the Pattern, but I prefer it because of it's simplicity. And it's the only model of understanding of the Wheel, that allows any consideration about the exact mechanism of turning-point detection at all - the answer about how a more intelligent Wheel could control the Pattern would be, that it is just designed to do so.
Another statement here will be a model of understanding what the Mirror worlds are. However this second statement is not necessarily be true for the first statement being true. Actually the traditional way of understanding the Mirror worlds in Theoryland is quite different from my view, and IMHO the chances of this both ways of understanding to be true is roughly equal (I have to thank Tamyrlin for showing me the arguments for that theory opposed to the mine). The hypothesis about the nature of the Mirror worlds is included here only because my primary suggestion here is, that it is the system of the Mirror worlds that provides the ability of the Wheel to examine and fix the Pattern. So it's good to give here at least one variant of what these mirror worlds are to be. However I see, that also the simulation theory about the mirror worlds is compatible with my hypothesis about the turning-points detecting.
The picture of the countless mirror worlds, some of them stronger, some weaker, let me think about a certain optical phenomenon - the diffraction, and especially a single diffracted ray reflected on a screen - an ordered array of dots, the central ones bright (the statistically more possible deflections of the ray), the outer ones dim (the statistically less possible ones). Now if the world can be reflected, then it could be maybe also diffracted, and a multiplicity of world images would occur, every one of them slightly different from the unbroken ray (due to the divergence) - exactly what we see in the mirror worlds.
Subatomic particles manifest both corpuscular and wave properties and there is IIRC a physical theory that this is also theoretically true about every one physical object, so if the proper conditions happen a human body for instance could behave like wave, could be rather wave then body in that moment. What if a whole world could became wave nature and behave further like an wave (reflect, diffract, interfere etc). It's not unlikely for RJ the nuclear physicist to imagine the WoT world in terms of waves. And this Wave Mechanics of the Wheel fits also in another aspects of WoT metaphysics like the turning of the Wheel (oscillation cycle), utilizations of OP (the way channeling is described is too similar to working with electromagnetic-waves-based devices; a channeler has to attune to the Source, so that OP must flow through the channeler like current; effects one can do with OP are effects of making it flow in specific way; for the object the effect is more similar to it's treatment by elecromagnetic waves then to anything else; the saidar/saidin dualism, that is said to be needed for the OP and the Wheel itself to work is similar to the dual nature of the electromagnetic waves), etc...
Only one wave is to be generated by the Wheel - that's the original world. All the mirror worlds are only deflections from this first ray. That's because the events in the Rand's world have effect on the mirror worlds but not vice versa. However both the original world and the parallel ones are the same type of "electormagnetic phenimenons", i.e. the same type of reality.
After outlining that model, let begin with the main part of the theory.
A part of Lanfear's explanations about the mirror worlds, as retelled by Loial - from Great Hunt, chapter 16: "The Pattern has infinite variation, she says, and every variation that can be, will be."
It's not 100% obvious interpretation of this quote, but IMHO it's the most likely one: everything that could happen to everyone in the world, everything have place in some way, i.e. there is a mirror world for every possiblility for every person or thing. But the greatest part of this variations has a very little degree of significance - so most frequently there is disregardably small change in the world, for example affecting only few minutes of the everyday life of a particular peasant. Such change fade very quickly and the mirror world is practically undistinctable from quadrillions of similar world reflections. I'm suggesting that such worlds merge with each other and have a very little time of standalone existence. Approximately few variations have large range consequences, and even less number of them maintain a noticably different world after time passes. These worlds don't fit in the mainstream and remain standalone.
When a convergention occurs between similar worlds, the result is a more bright and solid mirror world. The more probable is a world, the more different variations end up in the same image (after some time) and it is more solid. The less possible worlds are simply worlds that collide in themselves less variations.
A note here - I don't say anyway, that the original world is just the most probable world - this connection between probability and solidity is true only for mirror worlds, i.e. for secondary reflected worlds, while the original world is the only wave generated by the Wheel, all other parallel worlds together with their collisions are just derivative.
Actually the existence of stabile worlds manifests a possibility the world been changed in generally (it must be visibly different at least in some place and time), while a mirror world is generated by a difference in a single event. So the consequences of that event shown in the stabile parallel world can be easily traced to the crucial event in the beginning of the stabile world. So we have a mechanism to detect turning points in the history - where there is a stabile different mirror world, there is a turning point. After them the Wheel can eventually intervene at this point and so it becomes strong control over the history.
This function of detecting the turning points fits also in one of the few details we know about the original use of portal stones: Verin said that great things could be done with if-worlds via Portal Stones by those who know "the numbers of chaos". That looks too much like a hint to the mathematical theory of chaos, and the main application of the theory of chaos is to calculate turning points in processes.
Sometimes stable mirror worlds just exist - they are nothing but alternatives, and for not single mirror world affects the original world by itself, the Wheel ignores them. But sometimes in a stabile world a significant disballance occur, i.e. the result is damage or disaster for the Pattern itself. Such worlds can come to an end, where the Pattern mechanism is damaged or broken and that result is so different from the normal move of the Wheel, that a tension occurs between the parallel worlds and the Wheel have to do something with this tension. To cope with the tension in the mirror worlds, the Wheel have to change the structure of the actual mirror-worlds constellation, and to do this it have to change the way the original world reflects in mirror worlds. And to do this it have to make some changes in the Rand's world, by placing in it a strong and very reliable extraordinary factor, that would exclude some of the undesirable possibilities.
Particular lives and events are not important for the Wheel, only the changes of the whole world are significant and detectable. The singular events only change the probabilities for the future and that is what the Wheel detects. For the worlds to be changed a great ammount of events is needed. What the worldchanging events do is to make that great amount of another events near to 100% probable. So if an odd accident occurs, that must change the history, tons of another events would be needed after it, and that gives the Wheel time to detect the drastic change of the probabilities and to intervene.
One way of such intervention is to place a Hero of the Horn in the world. It's said in the books, that to become a Hero, "more then courage" is needed. A "courage" could be defined as the ability of doing what must be done, when the circumstances are very infavorable for that. While lack of courage could be described in giving up the "what must be done" and doing instead of it what the unfavorable circumstances require. Now, what could mean "more then courage". My interpretation is, that it's the ability to do just what is important for the Wheel, whatever else happens in the world. The will of normal people is very influenced by the circumstances, while Heroes are reliable, Heroes enlarge the probabilities for the right result. A Hero could fail in some of his/her missions, or could die too early, but what he/she attempts to do would be the same and that attempts at least will have their ifluence on the world. The details in the different incarnations of a Hero could be very different, but the Wheel isn't interested in details, for the Wheel it's important only to be done, what is important for the Wheel.
And that would be the same in every incarnation of the Hero (like a realization of a prophecy could have tons and tons of unexpected details in it, but the core said in the prophecy remains true, and the Wheel could even not know, how exactly a prophecy will be realized). Maybe the auras, that Min views, would be the same for every incarnation of a Hero. Maybe the Wheel choses a proper Hero in a way similar to the way it gives prophecies - a point in the future is chosen, where lot of different probable worlds have the same favorable result (with only the details different), and that fits in the static destiny of the Hero.
Another way of intervention is the ta'veren. A ta'veren occurs when the tension between the favorable and unfavorable outcomes becomes so radical, the bad tendencies become so strong and invariant (like Rand's experience by the Portal Stones, where every different way of his life ends with Baalzamon's victory), that the Wheel decides to change that situation drastically simply by temporaly changing the rules of reflections in mirror worlds, i.e. changing the laws of probapility. When the bad outcome becomes more possible then the good outcome, the Wheel simply suppresses the probabilities leading to the bad one, and only less possible (and because of them odd) variants remain. The web of destiny occurs only in the location and for the period of time it's needed to cope with the tension in the mirror worlds.
The most drastic intervention of the Wheel is the end of an Age. It seems as every Age have to end with a disaster. A possible explanation of that is, that after a time the mirror worlds are overflooded and a large ammount of current processes in the world must be terminated, and most of others so radically changed, that the greatest part of the past loses it's influence on the future. So less complicated factors will determine the possibilities and deflection from the normal turning of the Wheel will be prevented.
So the Wheel can have very strict and reliable control on the world history even if there are not intelligent mechanisms in it to provide this, all that control could be maintained by a very simple mechanism. The Wheel runs all the possibilities, some of them go corrupted, and the Wheel tries to abort reflection of such possibilities by making them impossible in the original world. And it knows what must be done just by having it from the good possibilities calculus. That's all.
Or, pardon me, not all, because there are also another worlds together with the if-worlds making the "warp and woof" of the Lace of Ages, so there is to be supposed another element in that wonderful mechanism of detection and control. But this is another question. The if-world system seems to be important enough.
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Tamyrlin: 2004-01-24
I am glad you posted your theory here, because it will remain with much more stability in this location than at the message board. Here are my main issues with your theory. First of all, your concept that there are mirror worlds, even briefly existing ones (for which you have no proof), would suggest to me that the Pattern is aware of ALL probabilities, and therefore, large changes beyond the bounds of probability shouldn't occur. But we know that cataclysmic events do occur, suggesting to me that the Pattern does not know all things, and it adjusts the present violently, when it attempts to preserve itselfin the face of annihilation from the DO's influence. Also, the merging concept you present, regarding the influence Mirror Worlds have on the real world is seen nowhere in the books. We don't see Mirror World inhabitants interacting within the Waking World. In fact, the worlds Rand visits in his forced trip to Toman Head, suggest that his future lives have nothing to do with the actual events happening in this world. Additionally, the Pattern, in my opinion, takes an active role in controlling events, weaving the Pattern as it will, forcing threads to go where it wills them to go, regardless of their supposed free will. The Mirror Worlds are integral in the Pattern's decisions, but we have no reason to believe that there are diffracted MW's that directly affect the Waking World. Finally, I continue to believe that you misuse the quote concerning those who knew the numbers of chaos. Verin suggests that these people where integral in creating the Portal Stones themselves, not that they knew someway to manipulate Mirror Worlds are affect the Waking World via their mathematical calculations. Instead, it suggests that mathematical intelligent channeling scientists discovered through their understanding of the Unseen World that they could create portal ter'angreal that would allow the physical transportation of an individual from waking world location to waking world location, or more importantly, from waking world to mirror world and back. But, you were probably already aware of my contradictions to your theory. :)
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dragonsceptor: 2004-01-25
I really like this theory. Having studied physics and seeing diffaction in action, I think this very neatly explains much of what we have seen of the mirror worlds. I understand Tam's objections but this just fits too nicely with my own thoughts to discount. The only way that I can see the pattern taking in active hand is if the creator were involved. Since everything I have read indicates the creator is not actively involved, the pattern must have a passive control system. The idea of the pattern using the mirror worlds to run an infinite number of possiblities just makes sense. The mirror worlds provide the wheel with the data it needs to make decisions on how to influence the patter. Thank you got this unique idea. I would like to see a faction on this.
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Korell: 2004-01-26
My brain hurts but i understand what you are saying you think it is sorta like trying to crack a password you go over every posability until you find the right one all though i think your theory is good i do not tend to agree i am with the Tam on this one the pattern does what it needs to regardless of free will if your theory were correct then there would never be any cataclysmic events because the wheel would have eliminated that probability thus actually removing free will from the pattern because it is making decisions for everything within the pattern maybe not on the day to day basis but think about it this way if the wheel were involved in the way you describe then it somhow would have deterred Lanfear from ever opening the bore in turn the DO never would have been released and thus the world would be diffrent because it would have been able to figure the forthcoming events
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dragonsceptor: 2004-01-26
exerpt from Korell, "...if your theory were correct then there would never be any cataclysmic events because the wheel would have eliminated that probability thus actually removing free will from the pattern because it is making decisions for everything within the pattern..."
This is not necessarily true. Free will can still be maintained. If the wheel uses the mirror worlds to extrapolate the consquences of decisions made in the real world, then when people make decisions the Wheel is able to see the results of that decision. If the creator imbued the wheel with an overall purpose (keep events througout each turning of the wheel as similiar as possible) then the wheel could tweak the pattern in such a way that it guides the results of the decisions people make. The mirror worlds with the endless possiblities give the wheel the data to make the tweaks it needs thus preserving free will.
This concept also allows for cataclysmic events. Because free will exists, the pattern can begin to stray too far from the wheel's ultimate purpose. Because the mirror worlds provide the wheel with an infinite number of possiblities, it will know when the decisions people are making begin to push the pattern too far. It can then use these cataclysmic events to shape the pattern back near it's ultimate purpose. That is why the pattern is similiar in each turning but not the same.
I'm not saying that this is the only way to look at it. I'm just saying that it does not preclude free will and cataclysmic events.
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Mairashda: 2004-01-26
The Wheel as a Turing Engine... it does make sense.
definitely worth its own faction.
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Korell: 2004-01-27
Dragonsceptor you contradict your own comment about free will
to quote
"If the wheel uses the mirror worlds to extrapolate the consquences of decisions made in the real world"
"then the wheel could tweak the pattern in such a way that it guides the results of the decisions"
if what you state above is true then the wheel is eliminating posabilities if i am walking down a hall and there are 3 doors one to each side and one straight ahead and i choose the one straigt ahead but the wheel sees that it will push to far away from the pattern and the door is locked because the wheel decides it to be. then it has eliminated my choices basically what you are saying is that the wheel limits free will in which case it is not truly free will
Free will is infinite options with no limitations theoretically even though it is not legal or ethical to kill somone we still have the free will to do so i realize that this is on a smaller spectrum but even if the wheel tweaks your opertunities it has in essence eliminated choices thus limiting free will i think what is stated above would be more relevent to fate then free will fate will happen no matter what you do because it is fate Thus The Dragons blood on the rocks of shayl ghul is not a choice Rand can make it is prophecy and most likly his fate the only choice he can make is how he will reach that point but it will inevablity bring him to the rock to bleed on weather you argue he dies or not he WILL be there somhow and without a choice it is his fate
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a dragonburned fool: 2004-01-27
Some things need to be specified more accurately:
- My theory doesn't state, that any particular person or any other part from any particular mirror world affects directly the original world. It's not the way the Wheel uses these worlds. Events from the original world can affect directly all the if-worlds, for there is only one world-wave originaly generated, and all other worlds are derivative from it. Also no particular if-world can affect directly the original world. Only the results of comparing multiple if-worlds can make the Wheel to decide to change something in the original world.
- about the cataclisms in the original world: it's possible even if the Wheel knows all the probabilities. Because for fixing everything the Wheel needs not only knowing the complete diagnostics, but also It needs to manage this immense amount of information (for to pay attention enough), to decide, what it "wants" to happen, and to interfere successfully. All the 3 steps require complicated mechanisms and erors and misses are possible. Once having it's complete diagnostics, the Wheel has to determine It's "will", and that's a difficult process. My theory hopes to outline some basics of it, but it's not enough (even if my theory is true :) ).
- Lot of statements included in my theory are not supported by quotes from the books. The reason I included them was: 1. The books seem to be based on an elaborated mechanism of the world. RJ is too goog master of systematics to miss it. 2. The books do not give enough material for us to see the complete mechanism, but only some parts of it. 3. So, any hypothesis about this mechanism, have to reconstruct the missing links of this mechanism, for seeing, how it works. 4. This reconstructed missing links could be only possible and RAFO-dependent, but they can be plausible, likely, coherent with quote-proven details and offering more explanations (what my hypothetical statements are, I hope).
- I said something about "merging" some if-worlds back into the original one. It could be missleading usage of words, and I wanted to find more exact words for explaining it, but I cannot. I meant not any sort of appearance of mirror objects in the original world (save us the Light from such a nuisance!). I meant if-worlds, that become (after some time) so undistinctible from the original world, that there's no reason more to consider them as different, and that are absolutely needless. The most easy solution for such junk doubles of the world is to use their substance back in the original world. If all the worlds have wave nature, if a mirror world is completely similar to the original, the both world could resonate, and merge. And they would merge not by multiplicing objects, but like a repeater in a phone cable restores the signal - the information about all the details of the voice is one and the same, only the energy is more. The "merging" of if-worlds, briefly to say, cannot cause doubles appearing in the original world.
- concerning Verin's quote about the "numbers of chaos": It's not very clear, what exactly the knowledge of this numbers was used for. It was not for creating the Portal stones, for their origin was unknown in AoL. But those numbers were somehow usable in using the Stones and in researching the if-worlds proper. These numbers are the only theoretical basis mentioned concerning portal stone worlds. The best theoretical basis to research and use some process is the theory describing, how this process works. AoLers were good in science, and I'm trust they found the proper theory about the if-worlds (they created the Ways using this knowledge, therefore they found the proper theory).
Thank You for encouraging, Tamyrlin. Without our long discussion concerning mirror worlds on the messsage board, I wouldn't ever elaborate such a theory, because I wouldn't be forced to put my loose opinions about if-worlds in strict order, and it were Your most-hard-to-resist-against objections, that forced me...
Dragonsceptor, Korell, Mairashda, thank You for support. About a faction: I haven't yet an Elder rank to creat such. And in the message board I seemed to be the only one thinking so... now I know, I'm not alone :)
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Tamyrlin: 2004-01-27
This is why quotes are important. In regards to the numbers of chaos:
TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 37 - What Might Be
"The Lines that join the Worlds That Might Be, laid by those who knew the Numbers of Chaos." Verin shuddered; she seemed to be talking to herself. "I've never heard it, but there is no reason we would not be born in those worlds, yet the lives we lived would be different lives. of course. Different lives for the different ways things might have happened."
Verin is not referring to the AoL. She is referring to the creators of the Portal Stones, from some unknown source. She says, "The lines that join the worlds (Portal Stones), laid by those who knew the numbers of chaos. The Portal Stones were created prior to the AoL, by those who knew the numbers of chaos. This reference is never associated to the AoL, and does not fit your definition.
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Davian93: 2004-01-27
I agree with Korell. Free will and the Wheel cannot exist. The wheel relies on predestination not free will to function. People are born to accomplish certain goals and have very limited free will. The DO is a wildcard in that he can manipulate the pattern to a limited extent skewing the predestination. That is the true danger of him escaping from his prison. He would shatter what must be in order for the wheel to continue to turn. By breaking cyclical time, the DO can destroy the pattern and end existence as they know it in Randland. As for the Dragon, he must somehow restore the pattern to its original weaving. No bore, no patch. There has to be someway for Rand to make so no interference and corruption leaks through to the pattern affecting its weaving. Then when the Age of Legends comes around again, people will be unaware of the DO completely allowing for a completely peaceful and highly advanced society.
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dragonsceptor: 2004-01-27
In response to Korell
The wheel and free will can coexist. Just because the wheel knows what it needs to do to obtain the result it wants does not mean it makes the decisions for you. Let me give you an example. Say that in order for the pattern to be preserved a certain person needs to sacrfice themself to save the life of another. Now the wheel has extrapolated events so that it knows that if in a certain set of circumstances this person will sacrifice themself. The wheel arranges for these circumstances to take place. However, when the person comes to the point where they must sacrifice themself, it is still their choice whether to do it or not. The wheel cannot make the decision for them. The person still has the choice to either sacrifice themself or not. This decision cannot be removed from the person. The wheel, based on its extrapolations, anticipates that the person will choose to sacrfice themself. This does not in any way lessen the sacrifice that the person made or remove the choice from them.
I disagree that free will is infinite options with no limitations. Free will is the ability to make your own decisions the way you see fit. You are not forced into a decision. If the wheel has arranged circumstances in your life, you are still free to choose how you will react to those circumstances. It is irrelevant to the discussion of free will whether the wheel already knows how you will react. You make the decision.
It is Rand's choices that will bring him to the Rocks of Shayol Ghul. The pattern just knows how he will choose.
I too have not achieved the vaunted rank of Elder and am unable to create a faction. Are there any venerable Elders out there willing to create a faction?
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Tamyrlin: 2004-01-27
Korell, you are right, stay strong. The Wheel does make decisions, or it is better said, it forces decisions; that is clear throughout the book. Rand has a bit of freedom of choice because he is ta'veren, but normal threads are swept along where the Pattern wills it. All decisions are not made by the Pattern, that is also clear; the Pattern doesn't care if John plants corn or beans.
While Rand "makes" the choice, we have the following information.
TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 42 - Remembrance of Dreams
"So they are," Moiraine said. "Three of them, when I expected one. A great many things have happened that I did not expect. This news concerning the Eye of the World changes much." She paused, frowning. "For a time the Pattern does seem to be swirling around all three of you, just as Loial says, and the swirl will grow greater before it becomes less. Sometimes being ta'veren means the Pattern is forced to bend to you, and sometimes it means the Pattern forces you to the needed path. The Web can still be woven many ways, and some of those designs would be disastrous. For you, for the world.
The path is forced. While decisions are made by the individuals, sometimes it is not of their own free will and choice. For example, when people are around Ta'veren, they say and do things they did not intend to do; in other words, they momentarily lost their free will.
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ilgross: 2004-01-28
I think that we are reading a bit much into RJ's world.
It follows his logic not ours.
(RJ: It is obvious who killed Asmodean...yeah right)
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a dragonburned fool: 2004-01-29
Stay strong, Dragonsceptor! Your opponents are just poor in philosophy. and cannot use correctly the notion of "free will".
For "free will" is not to obtain everything possible (that's called "omnipotence") but the ability to want anything and to act acording to that wish. To do something real, one needs reality, and reality must be transparent in degree great enough against one's fancies. So any free will is impossible without being restricted by the reality. That's because free will have to be also strong will. The circumstances can be so overhelming, that they could brake the will, or the will could survive and be able more to want, try, etc. The second case is the strong free will. Only such type of will can determinate something in the reality. And after it determinates something in the reality, it's act becomes part of the common determination-power of the world and other persons feel it as a part of the "fate". So the "fate" can use free wills as it's ingredient part.
That was too abstract, and too brief, and to generally philosophical. Despite a general philosophical discussion will be useful for Tamyrlin and Korell, here is not the right place for it. Here is to be spoken about "WoT". So, I will concentrate about, how this is the truth for what Jordan wrote, and how Jordan's concept about the relation between the "free will" and "wheel's determination" is like what Dragonsceptor meant, and not like what Korell and Tamyrlin are thinking. Let only what is to be found in the books speak about "free will".
Lot of characters complain, that the Pattern gives no chances to the poor mortals, especially to ta'verens. But it's very significant that all of these character suffering under the Pattern's determination, are extrermely strong wills, that do not dare something to happen against their will. And something more, the positions, in that the Pattern forces them, couldn't be played by weak wills. Is it possible a person with not super-strong will to be for enough time a Queen of Andor, or Amerlyn Seat, or the Dragon reborn, or Faile's husband, or any Aiel, or... any position you can think from the positions the Pattern forces the good guys from the books. Strong will is hyperdominating in the world of Robert Jordan. Strong will is everywhere successful and even prone to be the "good". We can see that the Pattern favorizes the strong wills. The both divine forces seek and use strong wills: DO breedes them in the concurrence he manages to maintain. The Creator also wants that: as Someshta said in tEotW, the Creator wants from everyone and everything to stay where he (she, it) is and face bravely everything what happens. That's the philosophy of what is good in WoT. A Queen with weak will is supposed to be the worst thing possible in Andor; the weak will is the most shameful thing by the Aiel, the most good-described folk in Jordan's world - the Two Rivers and their ancestors from Manetheren, are known as extremely stubborn, there is no a single one both weak in will and good in any degree character in the whole series. All important historical figures are strong wills, so the Wheel needs strong wills for doing what It want to do. The Aiels elaborated a system of cultivation of characters, that even forces the Aiels to use their own will against anything that happens, so that to do what must be done and to do it because of strong self is supposed to be the same thing. Even the da'tcang institute is a practice to persuade to a not free enough will, how bad is to be not free, and to force the da'tcang to use his/her will responsively. The Aiels are not the only example, they are only the most clear and full example, but every education, training and cultivation system in the WoT world is actually first a cultivation of will-power and second anything else.
There's much more to be mentioned. That's because I couldn't put it in good order - there's too much to be said. Strong will is one of the most important principles in WoT philosophy, and it is the real key for success in that world. Whatever is the side the strong-will character is fighting for. Strong will is fundamental for WoT world. And if somebody can think a strong will that isn't free will, let him demonstrate how it's possible, for I cannot imagine it.
Characters in WoT can experience the power of the fate and express fatalistic beliefs. That means that they see the things so. Well, everybody in WoT believes what he/she believes, but we, readers see that the truth is different. Characters can believe in fatalism, but we see, they ARE actually first-class free-wills.
Why they feel unfree? There is a simple answer. They just faced more important task. The more important a task is, the more resistable the reality is, what has to be affected. For significant effects could be maid only to resistant objects. You cannot write an inscription in water, you can write it easy, but poorly in sand, more difficult but with better result in wood, most difficult but with better result in stone... All these characters just experience the difficulties of the more important task, the Wheel gives them. If they have not will enough, they would fail. The Wheel needs their free will to obtain It's goal.
All these characters can think they have no chances, they can fail to do what they want. But in all that cases we see them force other people make something. Freedom to do what you want, or others to do what you want, but not the both. Not pleasant, but normal situation for free wills. For one can do something only because of restriction in doing other things (e.g. the other outcomes of the same situation). Free will is based on restriction of choices.
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and, Tamyrlin, about the numbers of chaos:
I allways thought, that this quote is speaking about the lines AoL experts used to route between worlds when using the group of symbols, Rand used for his flickering experience. This was after all the group of symbols best known by Verin, and most likely Veirn is speaking about. So number-of-chaos knowledge is for how to travel deliberately between mirror worlds, i.e. how to seek the needed if-worlds using the stone... And Verin couldn't refer the creators of the Stones, because it's said, that in AoL nobody knew who (or what) made this stones, they were only researched. Or do You state Verin has some information source before AoL?
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Tamyrlin: 2004-01-29
Somehow, through your entire philosophical speech, you forgot to address the reality of what we know happens in Jordan's world. The Pattern frequently takes away the "free will" of individuals, actually making decisions for them.
And, once again, Verin is obviously citing a source from the AoL, discussing a source from a previous age, or similar to what we do today when we project what people were thinking about or how they went about creating something, the people of the AoL, in their studies, decided that the stone portals were created by those who knew the numbers of chaos. You are suggesting that the symbols were placed on the stones in the AoL. This is incorrect. The stones and the symbols, signifying paths between worlds, paths that were understood and accessed by the creators of this stone and the symbols, were created before the AoL. Verin is citing a source she has read addressing research done on the stones in the AoL.
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dragonsceptor: 2004-01-29
Tamyrlin: "Somehow, through your entire philosophical speech, you forgot to address the reality of what we know happens in Jordan's world. The Pattern frequently takes away the "free will" of individuals, actually making decisions for them."
Just because the events of the book are forced a certain direction by the pattern does not negate an individual's ability to choose. The reason the characters FEEL forced is because they do not SEE that they have other options. They do not see the other options because of their belief systems. Rand does the things he does because of his character. He has a belief system that he adheres to. The pattern simply arranges situations in which his belief system coincides with the needs of the pattern. He feels forced because his character forces him to take the hard path that will satisfy his belief system. It is interesting to note that the only people I remember (I could be missing something and if I am, please point it out) talking about the pattern weaving their lives are those of the light. I cannot remember a single instance of a Forsaken, BA, or DF talking about how the pattern forced them to a path. I don't even remember something similiar to the the pattern weaves as the pattern wills comment made so often by the forces of light. The forsake, BA, DF's, etc all understand that they have a choice and their belief system is to work for self gain. Their path is easy. The pattern can also use the mirror worlds to determine what these characters actions will be and know that in a given situation, they will oppose the light. That does not remove the responsiblity for their actions from them and place it with the pattern. They are rational, thinking beings and as such have the choice to decide how they will live their lives.
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Callandor: 2004-01-29
**Just because the events of the book are forced a certain direction by the pattern does not negate an individual's ability to choose.**
The Pattern allows a person to make a choice, as long as it has room for it. If there isn't, you are going to do exactly what the Pattern wants; no getting around it. If the Pattern wants you to eat popcorn, you will collect the seeds, heat them, and eat. You won't go to the bar, if the Pattern doesn't have room for it.
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Tamyrlin: 2004-01-29
"Just because the events of the book are forced a certain direction by the pattern does not negate an individual's ability to choose."
I never said that free will didn't exist; I explained that while free will exists, the Pattern controls the pattern made of those choices, and in many cases forces specific choices without the individual making the choice of their own free will. I cited the example of ta'veren, having similar powers as the Pattern, being able to force other threads to be woven around them. Such as Rand walking into a village and everyone getting married the next day, or more specifically, the Aes Sedai that swore themselves to Rand. The Pattern can and will take away that free will, depending on its need to create balance.
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a dragonburned fool: 2004-01-30
"I never said that free will didn't exist; I explained that while free will exists, the Pattern controls the pattern made of those choices, and in many cases forces specific choices without the individual making the choice of their own free will."
A beginning of an agreement between us, Tamyrlin? Too good to be believed. :)
And the example of the ta'veren effects is really an instance, when a single person determines other's paths without the free will of the ta'veren to be involved. But after all that, the Wheel has such a power to restrict deliberate choices of humans, because It takes the choices they could make, researches them through the if-worlds mechanism, finds possible problems for the common balance and the ways to prevent that problems by eliminating some possibilities. The basis It uses to do this are the free wills of the humans. Only using this wills the Wheel can manifest the properties of It, that could be feeled as the Wheel's "will", or as the "fate" that "robs" the "freedom" of mortals. So, it may look paradoxal, but it's just a logical conclusion: The Wheel's "will" (i.e. the Fate) is derivative of human free wills, a consequence of them. And the more free will an human has, the more useful is he/she for the Wheel. For fixing extraordinally problems the Wheel uses Heroes, who's specific is to have "more then courage", i.e. an extraordinally ability to not be forced by circumstances, i.e. to not give their free will. The key persons the Wheel uses (and needs), all the main characters, live and act under very high pressure - everything tries to force them to give up, or to change side and go to the DO. It costs great efforts to not give up. And if one of the major characters gives up, ceases to resist pressure, he/she becomes useless for the position, the Wheel forces him/her to occupy.
And just a note more: there is a remarkable relation in the books between feeling free and being free. The books are overflooded with examples of people feeling free (or even being in charge), but actually being forced/manipulated, or even being under compulsion. And the opposite - characters become free starting with feelinf unfree. Look at the relations between Rand and Moiraine: at the moment Rand feels free from her, soon he realizes being used by her; but when he's ffeling extremelly manipulated by her, and she complains, she cannot do anything with him. At the end she obtains after lot of missed attempts some control over him, when she decides officially and factually to give her freedom against him. The books are full of such examples. The more a character in WoT feels free, the more unfree is this character, and vice versa, the more unfree the character feels, the more free he/she becomes.
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dragonsceptor: 2004-01-31
Hear Hear, all Hail "A Dragonburned Fool" for saying exactly what I wanted to but was unable to express in so compact a form. Seriously though, I completely agree.
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Dragonsworn: 2004-02-02
This is more a question then a theory. Are the mirror worlds, just that, mirrors of different choices in randland? or are they actually other dimensions that the creator created? Because in book 2 it says there just mirrors of choices that could have been, But in the later books i forget which 1)it says the creator wouldnt get involoved because this is just one of many worlds he created, and 2) When egwene goes into the part of the unseen world that holds peoples dreams she sees the dreams of people in the other worlds.
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dragonsceptor: 2004-02-03
My opinion is that the mirror worlds are just that, mirrors of this world reflecting the different choices that people have made. I believe that there are other worlds that would in turn have their own mirror worlds that reflected the different choices that are made on the other worlds. I have nothing to support this other than my opinion.
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a dragonburned fool: 2004-02-04
Dragonsworn,
You touched a much discussed question here. Recently I had the honour to be the one side of a long and hot debate on the message board exactly concerning what the mirror worlds are. Briefly, I believe, the mirror worlds are both "mirrors" of choices made in the original world AND separate realities in other dimensions. That's because the original world itself is also some sort of effect of the Wheel's mechanism, while the mirror worlds are some kind of copies of the original world with the corresponding changes. I'm sure Tamyrlin would tell You lot about the opposite opinion about what mirror worlds are.
About the other worlds mentioned in CoT, that the Creator created and among that the original world is only one of the worlds, my opinion is that these worlds are not the mirror worlds. Mirror worlds are to have lesser rank related to Rand's world, while those seem to be equal in rank. There are also another worlds different from both mirror worlds and Rand's worlds. The world of Aelfinns and Eelfinns is a good example of such worlds.
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Korell: 2004-02-04
Sorry all i was on vacation and did not have a chance to post but in my own defence and those who have supported me this is the definition of free will
1.The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
2.The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will
I would have to say that the wheel would certainly be considered a divine or external agency the wheel operates on Fate not free will i never said people did not have any choices i simply said that they are limited by the wheel thus eliminating the true meaning of free will with fate you play the hand you are dealt to the best of your ability much like Rand has done there is a difinitive end to this but he is to an extent able to control how he gets there but what will happen in the end will happen no matter what route he chooses he is destin to save the world (unless RJ has a sudden sadistic streak and Rand dies too soon and the DO wins not likly heh) again thanks for the support
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a dragonburned fool: 2004-02-05
Korell,
The problem with such a definition of "free will" is that it can work only in a world with only one free will. Where there is only one centre of activity (for example in an imaginated world, where only one is who imaginates) there are no constraints if the one who imaginates doesn't set such constraints. In world with more than one wills, there must be place for both wills, and they will constrain each other. In an world with many wills, every single will would be constrained by multiple other wills.
Now, the Pattern: whatever the Pattern is regarding it's control mechanisms, or even if there are no special mechanisms of control in the Pattern, but the Pattern at least is the sum of all the threads of living people with their wills included. So it can be said, that the Pattern incorporates the sum of all the active wills in the world (IMO It incorporates more things, but let begin with this), so it is the presence of all the other wills in the life of every particular mortal. And vice versa the presence of the will of every singular mortal in the life of everybody else. The Pattern is the incorporated relation between free wills. So, it limits the free choices? Well, what's wrong? That's a normal situation, because any communication between two free wills limits the freedom of each of the both. And if the freedom of the one side is not limited at all, the other side in the communication has no freedom at all.
So the limiting of freedom, provided by the Pattern is actually needed for free wills to share the world and remain free wills.
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: 2004-02-06
The only point i was making by putting the definition up is that that is what true free will is regardless of weather it plays into reality or not as i said before infinite options besides it is an Ideal not a fact. Free will can never truly exist in society not to its definition but i can still decide to do anything i want and what the diffrence is that my decision may have repercusions like i use my own free will to go shoot somone. Based on what you are saying though the wheel is predeterming your options thus elimination options from the posabilities that you have to choose from. I never said people could not make their own decisions but the wheel stacks the deck against them based on your theory.
im the dealer and i want you to win but no one else i stack the deck so the cards are dealt with you getting 4 kings because i choose you to have them not by chance. i never said that there was anything wrong with the patern making the best choices to keep itself intact but you are trying to say that free will exists when it is odvious it does not as i said before Rand can choose his rout but no matter what he does the end will still be the same forever and ever because the cyclical nature of time created by the wheel.
The limitation of free will is the negation of free will regardless of how you look at it no matter how we presive free will we truly do not have free will except within our own thoughts.
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dragonsceptor: 2004-02-06
**The only point i was making by putting the definition up is that that is what true free will is regardless of weather it plays into reality or not as i said before infinite options besides it is an Ideal not a fact. Free will can never truly exist in society not to its definition...**
I agree that free will cannot exist in a society with the definition you proposed. Our argument is that your definition is not a valid definition for free will (even if it came from a dictionary, I still don't agree with it. Webster doesn't know everything.) ;>)
My opinion of free will is that it is the ability to choose your course of action in a given situation. Therefore, if you chose a course of action, even if your choices had been limited, free will still exists as you made the choice as to how you would react. As rational beings, we will always have a measure of free will. Rand had his choices limited when he was captured and put in the box. However, he still had the choice how he would react to the situation. He could not flee because that choice was taken from him. However, he chose to fight. He could have given up and been docile. However, it was his free will that allowed him to make a different choice. By your definition, Rand did not have free will in this situation because his external circumstances limited his agency. This negates the impresiveness of Rand's character in that he could choose to fight. I will not accept that external circumstances can take away anyones free will.
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Korell: 2004-02-14
I would like to hear your definition (outside of the WoT) of free will and why you belive it to be so.
I will say this though i do not truly consider it free will i do agree with you on the fact that Rand has a limited amount of choices but that he does enevatibly get to choose which one he does so he does have some amount of free choice but i will still argue no matter what Rands choices are the outcome will still be the same so perhaps he can make his day to day choices of his own free will but in the end his blood will be on the rocks of shayl ghul. in one way or another thus he is subject to his on fate not based on his own choices but those of the wheel. We cannot choose to live or die we can only choose what we do with the time we are give but it is a good quote because we will all eventually die but it is none the less a fact and we do not get to choose to live on past our death.
With that all said i will say this Free will is a concept a theory an ideal. it is a belife and all of those things are subject to point of view. Your point of view is diffrent from mine based on our situations in life our suroundings and upbrings play a major factor in our decisions we make and the opinions we form. The fact of the matter is we can argue till we are blue in the face you do have the choice to say that you belive that there can be limitations to free will and i choose to belive that there cannot. The wisest man is the one who realizes no matter how much he thinks he knows he still knows nothing. We can contemplate and theorize till we die and we will never know the factual truth because there is no fact to free will because it is an ideal so for now Cheers
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dragonsceptor: 2004-02-14
Korell,
I agree that we are going to have to agree to disagree. I think we have both made our arguments and they both have their strengths and weaknesses.
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Callandor: 2004-02-14
**I would like to hear your definition (outside of the WoT) of free will and why you belive it to be so.**
I doubt you are responding to me, but I will answer it with mine.
Free will is exactly what it states: a person doing whatever the heck they want, whenever they want. That is outside the WoT.
Inside the WoT, the concept holds true; however, it is changed a little bit in the fact that we cannot destinguish right away what is free will or what is not in the context of the novels.
**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 36 - Web of the Pattern
"Um, yes, well. Not exactly. You see, the Wheel of Time weaves the Pattern of the Ages, and the threads it uses are lives. It is not fixed, the Pattern, not always. If a man tries to change the direction of his life and the Pattern has room for it, the Wheel just weaves on and takes it in. There is always room for small changes, but sometimes the Pattern simply won't accept a big change, no matter how hard you try. You understand?"**
The classic quote can be proven with an example. In TDR, when Mat is in Caemlyn trying to give Elayne's letter to Morgase, he picks up a flower and puts it through his hair because he is having fun. That is free will. Mat did it because the Pattern had nothing against doing it or not doing it. It did not effect it in any significant way; the only after effect was Tallanvor seeing him in that way and telling him to take it out of his hair.
However, Mat being chosen to go to Caemlyn is an example of the Pattern imposing will. Mat HAD to go to Caemlyn so he could find out about Rahvin's plan to kill Elayne, Egwene, and Nynaeve, and hence go to Tear to meet up with, and free, those three along with the rest of Rand and co. That was a situation where the Pattern would not have accepted any other possible outcome; Mat could not say no to going at all.
This is all changed because at the time the reader cannot see the difference between a free will choice and a Pattern choice, because we cannot see the final outcome till much later.
That's my take on it.
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dragonsceptor: 2004-02-14
As I stated above, My opinion of free will is that it is the ability to choose your course of action in a given situation. Therefore, if you chose a course of action, even if your choices had been limited, free will still exists as you made the choice as to how you would react.
I believe this holds true both in and out of WOT. I have my choices limited by circumstance everyday. That does not mean I do not have free will. To me, free will is the ability to make decisions impact the outcome of our lives. The fact that circumstance limits those choices still leaves me the ability to choose. I personally believe that ther real world contains things such as prophecy, callings from god, etc. However, the reason these things are able to exist is because God (i'm not trying to convince anyone that there is a god, simply to explain where I am coming from) knows us so well to know how we will react. The choice is still ours.
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a dragonburned fool: 2004-02-15
Korell, Callandor,
for giving a definition of "free will" there must be reason for putting the word "will" in that definition. But what You aer speaking about needs no will at all. You put only free options in Your definition, that can be called "freedom of movement" or something else, but not "freedom of will". Give options enough and everybody can make everything, even if this "everybody" is a robot, or a zomby, or a man under hypnose, or Propelled one, or manipulated one. Or these cases are not cases of free will, but they pass Your so hard defended definition. Even dice would have "free will" according to You. Well, free will is the ability of wanting what You want, only after that such thing as choice (free or not) could happen, only beings with free will can choose at all. And are the choices to be fulfilled free is next question. But nothing to do more with free will.
And in the books the problem of free will is questioned more in cases when one sees his/her wishes were actually not his/her choices but a result of manipulation (as Rand's erlation against Moiraine, the Wise Ones etc.)
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a dragonburned fool: 2004-02-16
(to continue my previous reply, for I was interrupted)
... There is a sort of freedom, commonly called "freedom of choice" that fits in Korrel's definition. But, first, it's secondary sort of freedom, it's too dependent of the "freedom of will", and too dependent from outer circumstances (choices are something to be given to the "free one", but not depending on him, the free choice can be only granted to one). Second, it's not an ideal definition, for it is allways dependent of the set of possibilities actually granted. Third, if the freedom of choice is understood simply as lack of active restrictions, then there is actually an indifference against the "free one", i.e. "do what you want, but the Wheel weaves what it weaves". I mean, one needs definite positive power, not just lack of limitation, for to obtain what one wants.
And the ability to wish, i.e. the "free will". It's never something to be easy to have. It's allways easier to give up the free will, and do what faces the minimum resistance. Free will is not something that can exist just so, it cannot exist without permanent efforts, without permanent usage of it. And it couldn't occure without training. Nobody is born with will enough, and will is allwais to be obtained and maintained by hard work. And that is really to be found among the ideas of the WoT books. Look at the training of the Wise Ones: the main thing a Wise One has to learn is how to be free from any inner and outer influences that can make you to fail to do what "must be done", i.e. what one decided that it must be done. And those who serve to their emotions etc., are placed by the Wise One in situation to realize their weakness and choose to take charge over the own will. Even the da'tsang custom is a method to force one to wish to choose free. Actually in Wise One training Jordan gave an interesting and good described philosophy of obtaining free will. And Aiels are not the only example for free will training, they are just the most clear example. Actually every organization in the WoT world trains the free will of it's newbies by hard work in severe conditions.
It's Jordan's philosophy, it's what Jordan shows to work. While the quotes about the Pattern not giving freedom to one are just complaints of persons not ready to face the situation in it's serious state.
