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ow the OP, TP, and the True Source are Related
by dragonsceptor: 2004-03-02 | Not yet rated
Previous Categories: The Wheel of Time
To begin this discussion, I think it is important to define a few terms. As I am studying engineering, I tend to think of power, energy, and sources in terms of Physics. From Dictionary.com:
ENERGY: Physics. The capacity of a physical system to do work.
POWER: Physics. The rate at which work is done, expressed as the amount of work per unit time and commonly measured in units such as the watt and horsepower.
SOURCE: Physics. The point or part of a system where energy or mass is added to the system.
When looking at this situation with the above definitions, it seems what we commonly think of as power is more closely aligned to the idea of ENERGY. The OP and TP are the ENERGY that is used to influence the physical world. In the case of the OP, elemental ENERGY is combined in specific "weaves". The POWER of the "weave" is the influence that the "weave" exerts on the physical world. The larger the influence (POWER), the more ENERGY must be put into the weave. The True SOURCE is the mechanism that is used to funnel the ENERGY into POWER in the world. It is my opinion that the Creator did not create the OP. I believe the Creator made the True SOURCE as a tool to funnel the ENERGY of the OP. It is the energy of the OP that drives creation.
*"The One Power," Moiraine was saying, "comes from the True Source, the driving force of Creation, the force the Creator made to turn the Wheel of Time." *
Another law from Physics also applies here, the Law of Conserviation of Energy. This law states that ENERGY cannot be created or destroyed, only change forms. There is a pool (for lack of a better term) of ENERGY that exists in the universe independent of anything else. The Creator made the True SOURCE to channel the ENERGY into the OP which can then exert POWER in the world. The TP uses this same pool of ENERGY. The DO created a different funnel (SOURCE) to channel ENERGY into POWER in the world.
***The OP and TP derive their ability to influence the world from the same place. The difference is the SOURCE that is used to achieve POWER****
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2004-03-17
So, in basic terms, you are suggesting all of the powers are the same, but they come from different Sources? I think the entire physics explanation confuses me, so I don't think I have much in the way of criticism. I know Jordan has some background in Physics, so maybe he had this idea of differing sources in mind...
Callandor: 2004-03-17
RJ has said that the TP is drawn FROM the DO and he is the only source of it. The One Power and the True Source are the exact same thing and were created by the Creator. They are opposites in their creation (I guess), but really they are two different Powers that can be used, and have different characteristics. The duality of RJ's world plays factor here as well.
udernation: 2004-03-17
Callandor, where was it said that the One Power and the True Source are the same thing? Isn't the name 'true source' enough to rule out that? It's obviously the SOURCE of the power. It seems to me that dragonscepter's theory concerns the nature of the source.
Grane: 2004-03-18
I believe it is at least possible that the Creator has his own form of power. I recently submitted an entire theory on this subject but it hasn't been posted yet.SPECIFICALLY-The One Power makes up the True Source which is what drives the the Wheel of Time. That is the One Power's main goal. Yes humans can draw on it, but NO it doesn't come straight from the Creator. The True Power does come directly from the Dark One. So if a lesser being(the Dark One) can have its own power it would make sense that the Creator has his own power to give out at his will. Not saying he does, just saying it's possible.
charliec: 2004-03-18
hey dragonsceptre, I'm a physicist too, and I like your explanation (btw, some others are saying similar things with 'filter' instead of 'source').
Still I'm not convinced as yet, we need to be a bit careful applying our 'laws' of physics to RJ's world- admittedly he did study physics, but we don't know how much he adheres to modern science in his model of Randland... and there are apparent discrepancies between the two in the power.
example- the law of conservation of energy, remember that even in our own understanding of physics this only applies to closed systems. Having a creator or God on hand makes for an open system, as they are an external source of infinite power.
Still, I agree that the many sources, one root power idea can work. (Still hoping for a third power ;) )
dragonsceptor: 2004-03-18
** RJ has said that the TP is drawn FROM the DO and he is the only source of it.**
I agree and I don't think that this disqualifies my theory. The DO is the filter for the TP and hence it must be drawn THROUGH the DO.
**The One Power and the True Source are the exact same thing and were created by the Creator.**
I don't think so. The famous quote I have seen on this is the one by Moiraine teaching Egwene about where the OP comes from. This says that the OP(Saidin and Saidar) come from the True Source. That does not mean they are the same. I agree that the creator made the True Source. However, I don't think that the creator made the energy that the true source draws on. There was no need, it already existed. The creator made an access mechanism (Filter) and the DO made a different access mechanism.
They are opposites in their creation (I guess), but really they are two different Powers that can be used, and have different characteristics. The duality of RJ's world plays factor here as well.**
The duality still applies. The TP is still balanced by the OP. Think of electricity. It exists in the world seperate from other things. However, you can have two different mechanisms access the energy of the electricity in opposite ways but still draw the energy from the same source.
jason wolfbrother: 2004-03-18
udernation:
**Callandor, where was it said that the One Power and the True Source are the same thing? Isn't the name 'true source' enough to rule out that? It's obviously the SOURCE of the power. It seems to me that dragonscepter's theory concerns the nature of the source.**
***Glossary EotW
True Source-The driving force of the universe, which turns the Wheel of Time. It is divided into a male half( saidin) and a female half (saidar), which work at the same time with and against each other. ONly a man can draw on saidin, only a woman on saidar. Since the beginning of the Time of Madness, saidin has been tainted by teh Dark One's touch. See also One Power
One Power-The power drawn from teh True Source.***
seems pretty clear to me that they are the same thing and that RJ has meant them to be the same thing from Book 1 on.
Anubis: 2004-03-18
Somthing commonly overlooked. Saidin + Saidar is MUCH stronger then saidin or saidar. The best we can have is a circle of 72 everyone with a saangreal. now nifty as that may seem its not likely.
anyways, the greatest works are always saidin and saidar combined. The creater uses the One Power. Not saidin, not saidar, just the One Freakin Power. He is able to do nifty stuff because he doesnt have to seperate the powers, he can just use it "unfiltered.
Davian93: 2004-03-18
****So if a lesser being (the Dark One) can have its own power it would make sense that the Creator has his own power to give out at his will. Not saying he does, just saying it's possible. ****
Of course its possible. But is it likely...no, not really. As Callandor said, the duality present throughout the novels comes into play here. TP and OP covers it.
Great Lord of the Dark: 2004-03-18
Would it be fair to call the true Power: The power of anti-creation? Every time it's used, it seems to bend the fabric of the area: iron grillework in Ebou Dar, rip in the Pattern for Traveling, darkness that behaves as Light does. I get the feeling that when used, the True Power erases or deforms some part of the Pattern that it is used on.
If it's drawn from the Dark One, who is the Anti-Creator, I think it would be a Power of anti-creation.
Now maybe it is just the OP filtered through the DO to make it the opposite of what it started out as, but this would seem to run contrary to the established mythology.
udernation: 2004-03-19
JW: I disagree. The One Power refers not to The True Source in yoru example, but to Saidin and Saidar only. First thing is: how can the "Power that flows from the True SOurce" BE the True Source? I don't beleive it can.
The True Force Drives the wheel, and is divided into Saidin and Saidar. It a) does not exclude other divisions, and b) encompases the one power, but they are not one and the same.
BTW, is cool that everyones using filters...filters ROCK! Stay tuned for my new and improved filter theory. I'm working on it NOW (Unfortunately, it's 2500 words long. Whoops)
Daekyras: 2004-03-19
This is a good idea. It is very similar to the filter idea in the "no...the other power" thread. I do, however, believe it to be too literal in it's definitions. When I think of a source I think of a start. The Start to a power. I don't think of a starting point in a system. I'd say most people will. I just think it's too technical an explanation.
Oh, and I have a PhD in phyisics.
charliec: 2004-03-19
Whay are there so many of us physicists here? oh yeah, we're geeks.
udernation... sorry to say it, but on reflection 'filter' may be the wrong word- implying they remove something- it may be better to say that they rather change the nature of the power they supply and redefine it, but I can't think of a good word... ;)
The 'power of anti-creation' thing Great Lord of the Dark mentioned is one of things I was thinking about in my 3rd power thread... I don't feel that the OP is an adequate opposite to this as it is NOT a power of creation, but rather of control and rearrangement of the world... I feel that the 'duality of Randland' argument should therefore be pushing for a power of creation...
ps Daekyras, did you hear the one about the neutron who kept getting bought drinks?
There was no charge for him...
Elder Haman: 2004-03-19
Considering the duelism nature of this world it seems unlikely to me that there is more than two sources of power. Those who argue for a third do so because they see the One Power as a "neutral" power and therefore see the system as unbalanced without the Creator having his own power to distribute.
However, RJ's world is also strongly Deist. Which means that the Creator does not directly interfere with the world. A power system that can be tapped by anyone who follows the rules would be consistent with a Deist Creater. Thus the "neutral" nature of the one power actually fits with it's source being the Creator.
Which raises the possibility that the Creator is the True Source.
The only diffulculty I see is that if both the Creator and the Dark One are pumping energy into the Wheel of Time mortal world- where does it do? Do we adopt a permanetly expanding universe in order to absorb this power? But that does not fit with the whole cycle, wheel, balanced nature of RJ's world.
Either the Dark One's energy source and the creator's energy source are opposites and cancel each other out- (evidenced by the effects when they meet in use), or during one of the other ages something draws energy off from the Wheel of time- (consistent with the water wheel image of the wheel being "powered" by the one power). I don't know which is the case but they both have their attractions.
dragonsceptor: 2004-03-19
Thanks to those of you who see merit in this theory. I wrote this prior to much of the discussion on the No, the other True Power thread.
I apologize to any who feel it is too technical. After some of the discussion, I think I would reword some of what I wrote. However, I still think that the differences are all in the filter( I really like that concept) that is used.
charliec: 2004-03-20
**However, RJ's world is also strongly Deist{...}
Which raises the possibility that the Creator is the True Source. **
Elder Haman- by allowing people to draw on 'his' power the creator would be far more directly involved in the pattern than most people seem to perceive him to be... I don't feel this tally's with the Deist interpretation.
The third power argument is that he has a power... not necessarily that he allows anyone to use it (although I do reckon he'll let Rand have a go at some point... he isn't all that separate from the world).
free will: 2004-03-26
The only diffulculty I see is that if both the Creator and the Dark One are pumping energy into the Wheel of Time mortal world- where does it do? Do we adopt a permanetly expanding universe in order to absorb this power? But that does not fit with the whole cycle, wheel, balanced nature of RJ's world.
The mortal universe is expanding. We already knew that because major turning points in the pattern create new mirror worlds (book 2?). Time is like the water-wheel, the river turns the wheel, but no matter how quickly or slowly it turns or how it wobbles it eventually comes to about the same place 7 ages later.
An interesting question is, ... are there other water-wheels? Remember Verin's pattern of worlds (as oppose to the pattern for each world).
Just as every sentient being changes the pattern (provided it's within the wheel's capability) and the OP changes the pattern, the creator if he used a power would use it to the change the larger pattern of worlds, not the pattern of any partisular world (even Rand's).
Frenzy: 2004-03-31
Hate to say this, but since the Dark One is outside the system (Sealed away from the Pattern), normal physical rules don't apply. He's in an entirely separate univers, even if he has access to the one in the book. And who knows what the physical laws in his system are. And what would happen when the two systems interact.
charliec: 2004-04-01
but Free Will, Rand's world does seem to be a particularly special one... it is not one of many similar worlds, but the most solid and most real of them all... it is the main world, and could easily merit particular attention from the Creator and the Dark One.
Alternatively- yes perhaps the Creator does affect the whole glorious web of worlds, but by doing so wouldn't he also be affecting and working in each individual one?
Anubis: 2004-04-02
perhaps rands world is the nexus. take it out and there is perfect balance between the creator and the dark one. rands world is the final point of contention.
Garayur: 2005-04-06
One important feature of the one power is balance, Male channalers have abilities that female channalers do not and females channalers have ability that male channalers do not. they are most powerful when working together aka. balance.
The True Power has two halves, One half comes from the DO the other from the Creator. inbetween the two halves is the one power, the two halves of the true source do not cancel each other out, how can energy destroy energy?.The two halves create a neutral zone. one half of the neutral zone is saidin the other saidar.
Callandor: 2005-04-06
**The True Power has two halves, One half comes from the DO the other from the Creator.**
No, RJ has stated specifically that the Dark One is the ~only~ source of the True Power. And we have no indication whatsoever that it is halved. Also, the balance is already present: the One Power is the "Creator's" power; the True Power is the "Dark One's" (quite literally).
Wielder of Waterflame: 2005-04-07
I think that this has merit. The filter idea is correct; however, I still believe that the OP is a neutral form. It is used to equal effect by both the Forsaken and Dreadlords as well as the channelers who walk in the light. At the moment, the True Power is only available to Moridin, the champion of the DO. In my mind, it makes sense that the Creator has his power to bestow upon his champion at the time of the most need, ie. the last battle.
mazrimashaman: 2005-04-07
it seems to me that the one power is just there, and has always been there, the true power is something the dark one created from the one power, the creator could possibly have done this but there is nothing say this at all
Yaga Shura: 2005-04-07
"Also, the balance is already present: the One Power is the "Creator's" power; the True Power is the "Dark One's" (quite literally)."
That doesn't really work.
The DO grants specific access to the True Power, but the Creator does not grant a similar form of specific access to the One Power.
Callandor: 2005-04-07
**That doesn't really work.
The DO grants specific access to the True Power, but the Creator does not grant a similar form of specific access to the One Power.**
Yeah, and this is important because...? Just because they are balanced, doesn't mean that they have to be the exact same way. Men are generally more physically stronger in the One Power channeling, than women; the balance for this is most clearly seen in that women can link together, while men cannot.
The Dark One has his power: the True Source. Given the balance theme prevelant throughout the series, there should be a similar power that is the "Creator's." Only thing left is the One Power. Simple supposing that there is another mystical power out there that is going to be used, is pointless. There could very well be, but there is absolutely no hint at it, and it only brings up shotty writing (10 books with the One Power, only to have another just appear with no hints at it's existance at all).
Yaga Shura: 2005-04-08
"The Dark One has his power: the True Source. Given the balance theme prevelant throughout the series, there should be a similar power that is the "Creator's." Only thing left is the One Power."
But the OP does not belong to the Creator in the same way as the TP belongs to the DO.
I have no theory on where the balance comes from, if indeed there is even balance at all. All I'm saying is that the two powers are not the same, and do not represent balance.
"Simple supposing that there is another mystical power out there that is going to be used, is pointless. There could very well be, but there is absolutely no hint at it, and it only brings up shotty writing (10 books with the One Power, only to have another just appear with no hints at it's existance at all). "
Like the TP wasn't named until the seventh book? (although I admit it was himted at as early as the Prologue to TEotW, you really could only get the referencce with hindsight)
Callandor: 2005-04-08
**But the OP does not belong to the Creator in the same way as the TP belongs to the DO.**
**All I'm saying is that the two powers are not the same, and do not represent balance.**
And once again, what does that matter? It does not have be a carbon copy of balance.
The balance is a theme that is present in just about every facet of the Wheel of Time. It obviously applies to the One Power with it being halved into saidar and saidin. However, it also works on it as a whole to be a balance to the True Power.
**Like the TP wasn't named until the seventh book? (although I admit it was himted at as early as the Prologue to TEotW, you really could only get the referencce with hindsight)**
Of course not; that's why it worked so well. And it's not just the Prologue of TEoTW -- it's practically every chapter that Ishamael is present in the series. The True Power was there, but we were just not pardoned to a point of view where it was mentioned or brought up until ACOS -- but there were hints. This "other power" is totally baseless. There's not even hints of it exisiting.
clarkkd: 2005-04-09
I see it as more of a balance of opposites:
The creator allows all of his creation to access(sp) him/his power:
The "do" wants complete controll; as per the question of the week.
The creator lets his people have free will.
The dark one must have complete submission.
Yaga Shura: 2005-04-09
"And once again, what does that matter? It does not have be a carbon copy of balance."
If you are saying that they don't have to be opposite to balance, I would say that you are wrong (surprising, no?). However, I think we should agree to disagree on this issue, since we both have only limited evidence and can not conclusively make a case based on speculation and conjecture.
"This "other power" is totally baseless. There's not even hints of it exisiting."
That was almost my point: that you can only see the hints once you know what they are pointing to. It's possible, although I don't believe it myself, that there is a third power whose hints we simply cannot recognise.
Callandor: 2005-04-10
**If you are saying that they don't have to be opposite to balance, I would say that you are wrong (surprising, no?). However, I think we should agree to disagree on this issue, since we both have only limited evidence and can not conclusively make a case based on speculation and conjecture.**
And I will simply say that you do not read what I write. How can things ~not~ opposite, balance? Of course they are opposites -- but they do not have to be perfectly, exactly, identical in the means that they balance. The One Power as you have pointlessly shown, can be accessed by any channeler, at anytime (given they are not shielded, stilled, burned out, or in a stedding), without permission from a "higher power" (IE: the Creator). The True Power is accessed by a person wanting to use it and the Dark One letting them. It's a difference between them; but this does not in anyway automatically state that the One Power is not the balance for the True Power in the universe and by extention there must be a third power out there that is strictly the Creators. It doesn't work that way.
**That was almost my point: that you can only see the hints once you know what they are pointing to. It's possible, although I don't believe it myself, that there is a third power whose hints we simply cannot recognise.**
And again I do not know why you even bother to point out what I have already admited. Of course there could be another power -- but any "hint" of it, must first pass through as being non-explainable as the True Power at work.
Yaga Shura: 2005-04-13
"And I will simply say that you do not read what I write. How can things ~not~ opposite, balance? "
Did something just go way over my head or does that make no sense? You are arguing that they do balance :"It obviously applies to the One Power with it being halved into saidar and saidin. However, it also works on it as a whole to be a balance to the True Power."
"Of course they are opposites"
No. The TP is only available to the Shadow. Both Light and Shadow have access to the OP. How is this opposite?
"Of course there could be another power -- but any "hint" of it, must first pass through as being non-explainable as the True Power at work."
Shall I try again:
The third power that may or may not exist would be unrecognisable to us.
This is because it is beyond our ability to understand.
As a result of this, we would be unaware of the bits in the book that refer to it.
This is the same as we were not able to know that Ishamael was using the True Power before it was explicitly stated in ACoS.
Callandor: 2005-04-13
**Did something just go way over my head or does that make no sense? You are arguing that they do balance**
You said:
"If you are saying that they don't have to be opposite to balance, I would say that you are wrong (surprising, no?)."
To which I said:
"How can things ~not~ opposite, balance?"
Now to interpret what should be obvious:
How can things be "balanced" unless they are opposites? They have to be polarized in some means. I have no idea where the heck you got the idea that I was saying that the One Power is not opposite the True Power, and still don't. You said that, not I.
**No. The TP is only available to the Shadow. Both Light and Shadow have access to the OP. How is this opposite?**
Ok, we have two beings, two "sides."
1. The Dark One
2. The Creator
The True Power is the Dark One's power -- ~only~ he is the source of the True Power.
Now, to maintain the balance, what is the "Creator's Power" (so to speak, whether the One Power derives from the Creator, who cares)? Take a guess with what is left, before supposing there is an entirely seperate power out there that is the drawn from the Creator to be a perfect parallel opposite to the True Power.
**The third power that may or may not exist would be unrecognisable to us.
This is because it is beyond our ability to understand.
As a result of this, we would be unaware of the bits in the book that refer to it.
This is the same as we were not able to know that Ishamael was using the True Power before it was explicitly stated in ACoS.**
And all this is wrong. We had the hints, and they were apparent before ACOS -- we just didn't have confirmation and a name to go with them.
Some hints:
1. Ishamael's Healing of Lews Therin -- a different "power" now; "I fear Shai'tan's healing is different from the sort you know."
2. In TEOTW, Ishamael's remark that Lews Therin "called down his precious One Power...". The only reason Ishy would have for referring to the OP in this dismissive way is if he had access to another type of Power altogether.
3. And lets not the obvious example in TDR: "'I cannot be defeated! Aid me!' Some of the darkness shrouding him drifted into his hands, formed into a ball so black it seemed to soak up even the light of Callandor. Sudden triumph blazed in the flames of his eyes."
4. The darkness surrounding Ishamael, that "boils" when he is about to do some bad things to Rand (most obviously shown in TGH when Rand get's his first unHealable wound).
5. Ishamael's glowing eyes were always a mystery, and practically everyone got some kind of weird vibe from them. Later shown to be advanced form of the saa.
6. In TSR, it is mentioned that Lanfear had said she "had found a new source for the One Power," usable by both men and women. Then added in that what was drilled turned out to be the Dark One....
You see, we have had hints before hand. Obviously they do not make sense collectively until ACOS. But they are there from the very start -- from the first Prologue.
Every other incident of what we don't know what is going on, has to pass through being the One Power, then the True Power, and then it ~might~ be considered a hint of a "third Power."
Give one hint of this, and I'll listen. Until then, you're supposing extremely wildly.
Yaga Shura: 2005-04-14
"How can things be "balanced" unless they are opposites?"
Exactly. They aren't opposites and therefore they do not balance each other.
"to maintain the balance, what is the "Creator's Power" (so to speak, whether the One Power derives from the Creator, who cares)? "
Who cares? I know I do. If the OP does not come from the Creator then it is in no way his power in the manner of the TP being the DO's power. It is integral to this discussion.
"a different "power" now;"
Why assume this means he no longer uses the OP? Why not assume, as I did the first time, that he is saying he no longer follows the Light?
"The only reason Ishy would have for referring to the OP in this dismissive way is if he had access to another type of Power altogether"
Or, if he was just being contemptuous of Lews Therin's reliance on the OP. We didn't know enough about the characters at that point to make the judgement.
Number 3: why not assume that this is direct intervention by the DO instead of a different Power in use?
"4. The darkness surrounding Ishamael, that "boils" when he is about to do some bad things to Rand (most obviously shown in TGH when Rand get's his first unHealable wound). "
I dismissed this as irrelevant. Obviously I was wrong. But does that matter? Could it not be that, if any hints have been dropped, we have dismissed them?
"5. Ishamael's glowing eyes were always a mystery, and practically everyone got some kind of weird vibe from them."
A don't you get a "weird vibe" from the voice in Rand's head, or the "third one" or the swirling colours, or the breaking down of old barriers?
"But they are there from the very start -- from the first Prologue."
I already said the same thing.
"Give one hint of this, and I'll listen"
But I don't have any hints. I don't even think this hypothetical third power has been mentioned in the books. I just don't think that you can dismiss it so easily.
"you're supposing extremely wildly. "
Why do you sound surprised? Even though you are incorrect; if I was saying "the third power exists" you would be correct. But I'm not. All I'm saying is that it cannot be dismissed so easily.
Callandor: 2005-04-15
**Exactly. They aren't opposites and therefore they do not balance each other.**
They ~are~ opposites. That is ~why~ they balance.
**Who cares? I know I do. If the OP does not come from the Creator then it is in no way his power in the manner of the TP being the DO's power. It is integral to this discussion.**
If he ~created it~, it's his power. It doesn't have to be tapped from his behind or anything. The True Power comes directly from the Dark One, and he is the absolute only source of it.
There needs to be a balance here.
**Why assume this means he no longer uses the OP? Why not assume, as I did the first time, that he is saying he no longer follows the Light?**
That's the second point -- ~Shai'tan's healing~. And for why assume -- it's the beginning of the series. Everything is questionable when first read through. Things pass right over people's heads and other stand out like no other. This for me, and I'm sure many others, stood out. Why did people believe that as soon as Lanfear went through the doorway, that she was still alive? Multitudes of reasons -- but they believed it and it later showed to be a hint.
**Or, if he was just being contemptuous of Lews Therin's reliance on the OP. We didn't know enough about the characters at that point to make the judgement.**
Exactly! It's a hint! It's there to make you go "Why on earth would he say that?" At the time, there are many reasons -- but the hint is there! In retrospect, we know obviously he was refering to the One Power in contempt compared to the True Power.
But the ~hint~ was there. Way back in book 1, the very prologue, there are hints already of another Power being at work.
**Number 3: why not assume that this is direct intervention by the DO instead of a different Power in use?**
At the time, sure, why not? But the ~hint~ was there. You could think it was Ishamael summoning a flight of chickens -- who knew! But the hint that there was another power was already planted.
**I dismissed this as irrelevant. Obviously I was wrong. But does that matter? Could it not be that, if any hints have been dropped, we have dismissed them?**
As I have said, any hint of "another Power", must first be totally unexplainable as the One Power, or the True Power.
Good luck.
**A don't you get a "weird vibe" from the voice in Rand's head, or the "third one" or the swirling colours, or the breaking down of old barriers?**
I sure do. But Lews Therin is obviously not a third power, nor is the "other one" (whatever the devil it is), nor are the breaking down of old barriers (RJ has practically said this to be that things are simply avaible to happen in some Ages rather then others). The strange colors I might consider for a "hint", except that Rand is the only channeler we are aware of that suffers from this, and two non-channelers do as well. 3 people in the whole world as far as we know, and all three are ta'veren (instead of channelers). Much more indicitive of something other then another power.
**I already said the same thing.**
Yes, I know, which is why I'm so shocked that you're having such trouble with this issue.
**But I don't have any hints. I don't even think this hypothetical third power has been mentioned in the books. I just don't think that you can dismiss it so easily.**
I don't dismiss it! RJ could write the first 6 words being "The Third Power pulsed in Rand" or some such, but if there were no hints of it beforehand, it's simply shotty writing and dues ex machina practically (that would simply be the Creator directly interfering, but it's nearly the same thing).
If there was one single hint of it, I'd be far more open to it. Find one. Until then, it's the farthest of all possiblities, only to happen if RJ writes it down and becomes an author for which I for one would lose a lot of respect for, as well as one who breaks his own themes that are so ubiqitous.
Garayur: 2005-04-15
*If there was one single hint of it, I'd be far more open to it. Find one. Until then, it's the farthest of all possiblities, only to happen if RJ writes it down and becomes an author for which I for one would lose a lot of respect for, as well as one who breaks his own themes that are so ubiqitous.*
What about when Rand is fighting Sammael in Shadar Logarth, someone saves him that channels a power he cannot sense, this could be the DO's power but the person channeling is described as looking like an older version as rand, this person doesn't mach any known channeler of the True power. i don't have the quote so i could very well be off, but i would just like to suggest someone look at it.
Yaga Shura: 2005-04-15
Are you saying that the one Power is balancing not only the True Power but the hypothetical Third Power as well?
Callandor: 2005-04-15
**What about when Rand is fighting Sammael in Shadar Logarth, someone saves him that channels a power he cannot sense, this could be the DO's power but the person channeling is described as looking like an older version as rand, this person doesn't mach any known channeler of the True power. i don't have the quote so i could very well be off, but i would just like to suggest someone look at it.**
That person is the Wanderer, who is the same person as the Watcher, who is Moridin, who is Ishamael transmigrated.
Go here: http://www.darkfriends.net/wheel/1_dar
k/1.2_forsaken2/1.2.3_moridin.html
at the Wheel of Time FAQ for a full explaination.
Callandor: 2005-04-16
**Are you saying that the one Power is balancing not only the True Power but the hypothetical Third Power as well?**
What are you smoking? Certainly not in a bar in California, but whatever.
No, I'm not saying that the One Power balances the True Power ~and~ a Third Power. I have never said that at all, and I don't know how I can make my stance that there is ~no~ Third Power anymore clear than it has already been presented.
~IF~ there is a mystical Third Power, clearly that must balance the True Power, but then what the heck is the One Power? It doesn't fit the theme of balance.
The One Power balances the True Power, however it is not an exact polar opposite (like the hypothetical Third Power that is for some ungodly reason even being suggested of existing) of the True Power, but it is nevertheless the balance for it.
haertchen: 2005-04-17
I definitely have to second Callandor on this one. The Creator and Dark One may balance each other, but this balance of strength is accompanied by extreme differences of style. I think this is fundamental to their respective natures. The idea that the creator's power is split into two seperate pieces which oppose and cooperate, versus the One Power which is a single unit alone corresponds in many ways to the main protagonists being paired off while the shadows forces remain single. With no hints to the contrary, the third power remains a loony idea.
Yaga Shura: 2005-04-18
Sorry for the confusion my last post caused you. No idea why I expressed it so badly. What I should have said was this:
You claim that the present balance between the One Power and the True Power is perfect, and that this perfect balance is necessary. You also claim not to be rejecting the potential existence of the Third Power. How do you reconcile these beliefs when they appear mutually exclusive?
I realise you touched upon this when you said
"~IF~ there is a mystical Third Power, clearly that must balance the True Power, but then what the heck is the One Power? It doesn't fit the theme of balance."
although to me this appears to be further evidence of you rejecting the Third Power absolutely.
Aiel Finn: 2005-04-18
The OP is the Creator's power. The reason the the Forsaken can use it is that they were created by the Creator(hehe) just like everyone else. Mordrin doesn't use the OP anymore because he is completly devoted to the DO and his own twisted plans.
Callandor: 2005-04-18
**although to me this appears to be further evidence of you rejecting the Third Power absolutely.**
No, I am not. If I was, I'd say that it no way in hell exists.
Instead, it's on the same level of possiblity as Rand suddenly sprouting a third arm, in my opinion.
But if people take the lack of proof to be proof, it's their own delusion, not my convictions.
Davian93: 2005-04-20
****Mordrin doesn't use the OP anymore because he is completly devoted to the DO and his own twisted plans.****
Moridin doesnt use the OP because he is completely addicted to the TP. Also, he uses the TP because it is a special sign of blessing and trust from the DO that only Moridin has at the current moment. Moridin's use of the TP is a privilege and, because of his addiction, it is a privilege that he is going to definitely use.
Yaga Shura: 2005-04-20
"No, I am not. If I was, I'd say that it no way in hell exists."
Okay, so then
You claim that the present balance between the One Power and the True Power is perfect, and that this perfect balance is necessary. You also claim not to be rejecting the potential existence of the Third Power. How do you reconcile these beliefs when they appear mutually exclusive?
Callandor: 2005-04-21
**You claim that the present balance between the One Power and the True Power is perfect, and that this perfect balance is necessary. You also claim not to be rejecting the potential existence of the Third Power. How do you reconcile these beliefs when they appear mutually exclusive?**
I'm getting very sick and tired of repeating myself to you, when you do not listen at all.
1. I have never said that the balance is perfect. Where the hell are you getting this? All that I have said is that they need to be polarized in some means -- not that they must be perfectly, exactly opposite. In case you missed that, you already brought up this ridiculous point a few posts back.
2. Yes, I claim that there is no Third Power. I'll stress the point again: ~I~ claim there is no Third Power. I'm basing this claim on the theme of balance that is ubiquitous throughout the Wheel of Time novels, and we have two opposites here (the Creator and the Dark One), and we have the power of the Dark One, the True Power, and we already have the One Power. I claim that the balance theme is maintained only through the One Power being the balance of the True Power -- any other "power" would break the balance. Where's the mutual exclusion here?
Once again, I do not state that this is fact. No, if I did that I'd quote it and show it right to your face that it says that. I do not have that quote, nor more evidence beyond the theme being maintained. That is why it's a ~claim~ of ~mine~.
As I have said many times already, the existance of a "Third Power" is a possiblity. But it's one along the lines of Rand realizing all along that he's been a woman or Lanfear turning out to be a horse. You know -- virtually impossible, but if Jordan says it, there it is.
Yaga Shura: 2005-04-22
"1. I have never said that the balance is perfect. Where the hell are you getting this?"
Callandor-2005-04-06
" the balance is already present: the One Power is the "Creator's" power; the True Power is the "Dark One's" (quite literally). "
Callandor-2005-04-07
"Just because they are balanced, doesn't mean that they have to be the exact same way."
"Given the balance theme prevelant throughout the series, there should be a similar power that is the "Creator's.""
Callandor-2005-04-08
"The balance is a theme that is present in just about every facet of the Wheel of Time."
Callandor-2005-04-13
"Ok, we have two beings, two "sides."
1. The Dark One
2. The Creator
The True Power is the Dark One's power -- ~only~ he is the source of the True Power.
Now, to maintain the balance, what is the "Creator's Power""
Callandor-2005-04-15
"There needs to be a balance here."
Callandor-2005-04-16
"It doesn't fit the theme of balance."
Those ought to do it.
" But it's one along the lines of Rand realizing all along that he's been a woman or Lanfear turning out to be a horse. You know -- virtually impossible, but if Jordan says it, there it is."
Although both of those are impossible. Animals cannot channel, and Elayne is carrying Rand's child.
Callandor: 2005-04-22
**Those ought to do it.**
Yes, I have repeatedly pointed out the balance. But there is not ~one single~ instance where I said it was a ~PERFECT~ balance.
**Although both of those are impossible. Animals cannot channel, and Elayne is carrying Rand's child.**
No, they are virtually impossible. If RJ wrote that Rand suddenly had breasts, and a vagina, and started casting curious looks at Narishma and started calling himself Mary, we'd all have a good laugh, but we'd have to accept the fact that RJ has made Rand a woman. Absured, no? Yet, it is still possible, in the series.
You see where I draw the line on possiblities, given those examples.
Yaga Shura: 2005-04-23
"Yes, I have repeatedly pointed out the balance. But there is not ~one single~ instance where I said it was a ~PERFECT~ balance."
And what exactly is an imperfect balance?
If two things balance then you cannot make any additions to the system without disturbing the balance, unless it is possible to have something in a neutral position. Since you rejected the idea of the One Power being neutral, does this not exclude the possibility of adding the Third Power to the system?
"You see where I draw the line on possiblities, given those examples. "
Just to clarify, you appear to be saying that nothing is impossible, but some things are ridiculous. Is this correct?
Callandor: 2005-04-24
**And what exactly is an imperfect balance?**
The balance of men being stronger and women being able to link to 13. They are not exactly opposite.
**Since you rejected the idea of the One Power being neutral, does this not exclude the possibility of adding the Third Power to the system?**
I don't know how many times I can state this,but one final time.
It is my ~claim~ that the One Power balances the True Power, based on the theme of balance in the novels. This does not get rid of the possiblity of a third power (something I have repeatedly stated again and again, but for some odd reason you seem to be totally unable to comprehend). However, the possiblity of there being a third power, based on what we know from the books, is reduced to the simple method of Jordan just putting it in with no other hints at all -- just decided to drop it in.
**Just to clarify, you appear to be saying that nothing is impossible, but some things are ridiculous. Is this correct?**
No, and that only further shows that you do not fully read any posts that I submit. I do know of a few things that are impossible: flying with the One Power, a male channeler channeling saidar outside of a link, the vice versa of the previous, a Hero giving up being a Hero of the Horn of their own choice, the Creator intervening, and death being Healable. Now that is just a quick list, and I'm sure I'm forgetting a few glaring ones (but being comprehensive was not the point).
I do not believe at all that anything is possible in this series. I never have. When Jordan gives a clear cut wall -- there is no going through it with "possiblity." It simply is impossible, just like things are impossible in our own world right now.
Wielder of Waterflame: 2005-04-25
Ok, let me make this clear before I go into the rest of my statement: I completely agree with Callandor, and I understand what he is saying.
However, I have to say that some things that Callandor has said are impossible either have happened or have been said to happen. It is supposed to be possible to fly, just not with weaving air around yourself (perhaps two people simaeltaneously weaving air around each other? just a thought) and it has happened that a woman has channeled saidin outside of a link. True, Aran'gar is a special case, being a man's soul, but she is a woman now. Other than this, however, I agree with callandor completely
Yaga Shura: 2005-04-25
"No, and that only further shows that you do not fully read any posts that I submit. I do know of a few things that are impossible: flying with the One Power, a male channeler channeling saidar outside of a link, the vice versa of the previous, a Hero giving up being a Hero of the Horn of their own choice, the Creator intervening, and death being Healable. Now that is just a quick list, and I'm sure I'm forgetting a few glaring ones (but being comprehensive was not the point).
I do not believe at all that anything is possible in this series. I never have. When Jordan gives a clear cut wall -- there is no going through it with "possiblity." It simply is impossible, just like things are impossible in our own world right now."
So then you believe anything is possible unless specifically stated impossible? Like Healing severing used to be?
We have been shown that the knowledge the characters possess is not infallible, and that things they believe impossible are, in fact, possible.
It also seems a little odd to me that you are suggesting RJ can and might alter human biology to the point where it is possible for a woman to become pregnant through sexual intercourse with another woman. There is no hint of this, ever. This would be an absolute bolt from the blue, and, further, one which would give your balance theme a swift debunking.
Callandor: 2005-04-25
**However, I have to say that some things that Callandor has said are impossible either have happened or have been said to happen. It is supposed to be possible to fly, just not with weaving air around yourself (perhaps two people simaeltaneously weaving air around each other? just a thought) and it has happened that a woman has channeled saidin outside of a link. True, Aran'gar is a special case, being a man's soul, but she is a woman now. Other than this, however, I agree with callandor completely**
Aran'gar is a very special case, and does not break the impossibility of it. A woman, with a woman's soul not like Aran'gar, is physically incapable of channeling saidin; the same goes for a man with saidar.
And flying with the One Power, I typed badly: I meant flying yourself with the One Power. That is completely impossible.
**So then you believe anything is possible unless specifically stated impossible? Like Healing severing used to be?**
I'm forced to. I know I've said on a threads that you have responded to at least 4 or 5 times my defintion of a truth:
Anything stated in the series, BWB, interviews, or in another form by RJ, that is completely uncontradicted, must be taken as fact.
Otherwise, the series is totally debunked because people can just say "well, I don't think things like the Numbers of Chaos really existed, because I don't believe Verin would know about them." and that would be accepted as a valid arguement!
This brings into the line of proving things exist. With the Third Power existing, one must first give a single simple hint of it's existance. Once that is done, I might even be for it (unlikely because I feel that'd be incredibly shotty writing, but I'd be forced to accept it). To do that, one must first prove that the One Power does not explain the incident, and the True Power does not explain the incident. Otherwise, until that event happens, we have the entire course of the novels, and the theme of balance, as circumstantial evidence to say a simple: No.
**We have been shown that the knowledge the characters possess is not infallible, and that things they believe impossible are, in fact, possible.**
And until they are shown possible, they are and forever will remain impossible.
Aiel Finn: 2005-04-26
I'm sorry, but this is getting petty. There has been no reason for a third power, there has been no evidence of a third power. **IF** RJ makes one, I'll eat my hands and then beat my head on the wall, but until then, let's not get into a flame war over it.