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he Need-based Searching

by a dragonburned fool: 2004-07-29 | Not yet rated

Previous Categories: The Wheel of Time

The question I'm focussing on here is: why Need can be used only one time in TAR (and in finding Green Man's place)?

The Wise Ones told Egwene, that wanting to use the same need for a second TAR-search would be like wanting to eat the same apple for second time (it wasn't exactly apple in the explanation, but never mind, the sense is the same). Such an answer means IMHO that thay at least intuitively understand some bit about how need-search works. Else they would say "it is just so in TAR" but wouldn't give explanations. I'm not saying that they understand enough, but they definitely feel, that using needs for search destroys something one had earlier. I.e. there is some resource in human, called the "Need" that allows search for dreamwalkers, and that ressource allows only one single search per unit of Need.

It's clear that here is nothing to do with the "real is what you believe to be real" paradigm, that is so often proposed to explain everything about TAR. Elayne and Nynaeve tried, but they couldn't do it, and only after that failed attempt Egwene told them it's impossible. And if it was just belief, the using of need would create a inner block against using it second time, but we see in the example of the Wise Ones the group in WoT that is most immune to any kind of psychological traps and blocks, so that makes the hypothesis that the belief works in the need, not so likely.

Wise Ones use Need for forcing seer's information, and that is close to their other well known function - to see spontaneously important things in the future for the Aiel. The last is very close to foretelling, and also is close to what AS know about the talent of Dreaming. Fortelling-like effects are apparently based on reading the Pattern itself. It is the most likely option also for Need.

What is "need"? The conditions for a thread (or group of threads) to fulfill some requirements the context (and the historical context in WoT is the Pattern) gives them for the thread to can exist further keeping it's tendention. "Need" is what a thread needs for to fulfil it's purpose in the situation. "Need" was never refered to be subjective, illusionary need, only "real" "true" need could work in search and in finding the Eye of the World. So "Need" is an aspect of the relations between a thread and the Pattern, it is a function of the mechanisms of the Pattern.

When a dreamwalker concentrates on need, she is concentrating on a Pattern mechanism. So a Pattern mechanism is what is actually making the search, and the dreamwalker only attaches herself to the process.

A Need is also a tension in the Pattern. Actually a Need-search finds something that will solve the tension, that will neutralize it. After the answer is known, the something to solve the tension already exists for the person and the tension is no more there. But if the answer is not clear for the person, or more difficult and risky paces are to be done for to reach the solution, the person will still feel a need, only the need cannot be used for second time. So the tension is not in person's will and conscience, but in the process of the dreamwalker moving to the needed thing itself.

Once a dreamwalker begins to use Need, the process is stepwise. The dreamwalker concentrates of the need and comes closer to the goal, she concentrates for second time and gets closer, and so on. Between steps of the process the dreamwalker can ever add some moments to the need's formula and so change the direction of approach. So Elayne and Nynaeve when seeking for solution against the drought, first find themselves in Tar Valon, but they add "not in Tar Valon" condition to what they seek for, and they are moved to Ebou Dar. They made lot of steps after that. But once they made a break in the search they became unable to any concretizations more. So most decisive for the Need-search is the beginning of the process.

From the other side, the Pattern's need to control the world requires It's own mechanisms to find what is needed in situations. And this mechanisms also work stepwise. So it comes time when the Pattern needs Dragon, and crowds of false Dragons appear, at the end the real Dragon is proclaimed and immediately all the false dragons lose their battles. Also the Pattern uses single-chance solutions: for example the Dragon has to face DO at Tarmon Gaidon at some moment of time, and if the Dragon is killed before that, the history would have to wait to the next Tarmon Gaidon after Ages. Also the Aiel sept chieftains in the beginning of Rhuidean had a single chance to decide to enter Rhuidean, and the septs of all those who hesitated were lost. Also a ta'veren is known to become what the ta'veren needs (but what a ta'veren needs depends not on what the ta'veren wants), i.e. ta'veren's life is some sort of non-conscious practical Need-search in the waked world. Interesting here is, that a living person is used by the Pattern for to provide finding of what is needed.

That leads me to the suggestion, that when the Pattern wants to find what is needed for a situation, It investigates the need as detectable in human threads, and then It makes virtual connection to the object needed to fix the purpose of the person the Pattern based it's search on. If this connection would be available by the normal flow of events, the Pattern just lets it happen, but if there are issues, the Pattern changes the normal tendentions of other threads - and we have a ta'veren.

Now my hypothesis is, that dreamwalkers in TAR turn on the process the Pattern itself use to investigate needs. The dreamwalker gives the tension she feels as a base, and the Pattern processes it. The dreamwalker must concentrate on the need for to show to the Pattern exactly that tension, cleared from other stuff. In TAR the Pattern has it's reflection from all the parallel worlds, so a mere manifestation of a need will fit into the context of Pattern's own work. If the Pattern finds a tension in it's context, it processes it. The dreamwalker uses that to be together with the process. The dreamwalker is as if assisting the Pattern in a childbirth of a solution (that the Pattern usually does without any midwife). Unlike the objects a dreamwalker imagines in TAR, the need is something that really has it's place in the Pattern, so unlike the imagination-based objects, the Pattern reacts.

Once the search is done, the Pattern has the solution for it, and there is no need for it to repeat it. The Pattern doesn't care about how many the dreamwalker understands, the Pattern does the search not for the dreamwalker but for itself. The dreamwalker is only the initiation of the process. For the Pattern the tension is as if resolved. At least it is resolved for TAR, where the timeless reflections of everything are stored, and where the results of all mirror worlds are present. I.e. in TAR the actual fulfillment is not necessarily addressed when there are issues with needs. So a Need-search doesn't work second time with the same need.

Another example in the books of using Need is the search for the Eye of the World. The Green Man senses the need of those who search for him, and according to that need his place appears earlier or later in different places in the Blight. The Green Man said also that his place doesn't move, so it is some different dimension of reality against the dimension of reality where the Blight with the Mountains of Dhoom exist. When the Green man is feeling the Need, he is linking his place to the location where the thread is. It must be the thread, what is used by the Green Man to find the seeker of the Eye, because the Green man shows no orientation in the geography of the Blight territory or something else in the environment, and also he don't recognize people he hasn't seen before, for example he is thinking Rand is an Aiel, despite of it was most likely exactly Rand whos thread provided the Need.

What can be the Need, he is feeling? It's definitely not any kind of need, because many men went to the Blight for different reason, some of them specifically for searching for the Eye, and everybody entering the Blight will be in very serious need soon, the Bligth will guarantee some need earlier or later, but only few find the Eye. So it's not any need, that works here. Only the "true" Need is sensed. When the Need is the Need of the World, that Moiraine's group had, the Green Man finds them earlier then ever. In all other cases the Eye was behind the passes of the mountains of Dhoom, but in that case it was before the passes. I.e. the feeling of the Need depends of how important is the Need for the Wheel, or at least for the prophecy because of that the Green Man is there. Because the Eye is created artificially by the AoLer AS, and Someshta is also creation of AS, it is to be human will that set the rules. But the only motive to create the Eye was the prophecy, therefore any human will responsible for creating the Eye and it's rules, is serving to the prophecy, and the prophecy is Wheel's will, so the last instantion determining the rules of the Green Man's place will be the Wheel. AoLer AS could determine what kind of Need should Someshta sense, but the only kind of Need there was sense for them to determine was the kind of Need specified by the prophecy, i.e. by the Wheel. So Green Man's place is analogue to the Wheel's mechanism to calculate needs, and in the Rand's case it is one of the Wheel's mechanisms to find the needed actually. Maybe with the most of others who found the Eye it was just the usage of similar kind of Need to the ultimate. But Rand in tEotW is case when the Wheel itself is working, and the Need seems to fit in the same way of functioning, Wheel is usually using.

The fact that usually one cannot find the Eye two times (Moiraine is the only exception, as Someshta said), while the Green Man himself have no motives to neglect the second need, means that it must be the Wheel's mechanism again, or at least some good equivalent of it, that determines the rules. The Need is sensed in somebody's thread, the connection to the Green Man's Place is done and for the force that is responsible for the Need-sensing there is no Need more, whatever happens with the corresponding person later: he is already connected and the Need is over. It's possible only in the Pattern's point of view, where there is a singular thread among other threads, whole one for differents moments of time, and the Need is applied to the whole thread, not to a particular moment of life.

Moiraine is coming second time to the Eye, actually using the Need of the three ta'verens. She is the one who is really responsible for the whole adventure though, she is the actual leader. But already in Baerlon there was viewing about the group of the three boys, Moiraine, Lan, Egwene becoming together into the same one thing. So it was that compound thing, that complex bundle of threads that had the Need. Moiraine was the leader, but actually that is similar to the role of the dreamwalker in the stepwise Need-search. Moiraine is assisting to the coming of the Need on the surface, well visible for the corresponding Wheel's mechanism. Moiraine was not the mother but the midwife of that Need. She had a ready Need near her, and she makes it to become more visible. The same make the dreamwalkers in making the Need more precise. But initiating the Need needs real need and it could be done only one time.
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Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 2004-10-28

(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
The easiest answer is that once the Need is met it no longer exists, so you can't use it again. It isn't the Pattern's, the Wheel's or Tel'aran'rhiod's fault that the needy don't fully understand the answer given to them. But you said that already.
You don't have to know exactly how something works to use it. How many people are there who use automobiles, computers, televisions, etc. know ~exactly~ how they work, down to the last detail?

2

dace: 2004-10-29

i think Frenzy got it right and that would explain why Moraine could go back to see the Green Man again. ie. she had a diffrent need not the same need.

3

a dragonburned fool: 2004-11-01

The answer, that once the Need is met, it doesn't exist: actually I started my verbose text with that, and all the theory is an attempt to explain, what it means for the Need to exist no more. It is not understandable from itself alone. I would say that a "need" cancels existing only when the problem is really solved, and this is just not the case when somebody made the Need-search and haven't understood it. So for the Wheel the "Need" is something more specific, and my theory is dedicated to the question "what exactly".

Briefly, my theory is that what is known as "Need" for dreamwalkers and the Green Man is actually Pattern's own mechanism of search, that some humans can sometimes trigger (not create, but only trigger) using the tension in their minds. The Pattern doesn't notice that it has something to do wiht the specified persons, it does the job for itself, and it wants only a tension in the Pattern for to do it, and every tension can be processed only once.

4

Callandor: 2004-11-01

**i think Frenzy got it right and that would explain why Moraine could go back to see the Green Man again. ie. she had a diffrent need not the same need.**

Just like to point out, Moiraine found the Green Man before. Was she alone, or did Lan go with her? In any case it doesn't matter.

When she goes to the Green Man again, Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, and Nynaeve are all with them, and know that need is necessary. Moiraine herself said "~Our~ need is the greatest in the world"; not her need.

Rand needed to see the Green Man. Mat needed to see the Green Man. Perrin needed to see the Green Man. Heck, take your pick on who it was, but there were many more people that had not used that need before, then simply Moiraine.

5

a dragonburned fool: 2004-11-04

Yes, it was the common "our" Need, that brought the characters to the Eye in the Book #1. This Need was obviously great and important and overrode the Need Moiraine used by her first visit. However it was Moiraine who came first to the Eye also in that second visit, she was the first to be greeted by the Nym (she was an AS thought and for an AoLer Nym this is something important), while the "need" could do it so that the true owner of the need to come into the Green Man's Grove and Moiraine to remain alone in the Blight. The Need was "our", but Moiraine was the only one who arranged the whole quest, who decided everything about it, who leaded it from the beginning to it's successful end. The Need was "our" but the only active role in the whole story was Moiraine's. Her role was too important for to be unrelated to the Need, that brought them to the Eye. Whithout Moiraine I doubt any one of the three boys would come to the Eye. Moiraine was important part of that "we" in this time.

Now, this active role of Moiraine is what I'm interested in, because it expresses a lot of similarities with the active dream search of Aiel Wise Ones. When an Wise One begins a serch in TAR, most commonly it is not just her need, but a need of the sept or the clan. For example a new sept needs to find a water to settle down, without that the sept will not survive: it's sept's "our" need. The Dreamwalker only operates with this need. As Nynaeve's and Elayne's search for the Bowl shows, the dreamwalker even doesn't need to understad the Need, she must only feel it. But the Dreamawlker's active intervention is needed for to process the Need, and from the Dreamwalker's skill and abiliyt to concentrate depends how precise the answer will be. This step-by-step precising of the need by Dreamawalker's mind means, that the Pattern uses the Dreamwalker for to process the Need. The Dreamwalker's activity triggers the Need-processing. After the search completing the Need exists no more even if it's not only the Dreamwalker's need. So in the case of Elayne's search for the Bowl, the Need is the Need of the whole Westlands, but it doesn't exist more in TAR after sertain Nynaeve Sedai and Elayne Sedai finished their attempt. A particular Dreamwalker takes the common Need, processes it to a useless result because of the Dreamwalker's ignorance, and the common Need is unaccessible more? It depicts not the Nynaeve's and Elayne's case, but it's possibility. And I'm affraid that a poor Dreamwalker would cause exactly the problem with some important Need if allowed to do so: to waste the possibility to search for a Need by not understanding the results or if she dies during the process. The Dreamwalker is acting like an agent or operator for a Need that isn't only her's - that's how Need is processed in TAR. Because of the similariyt of TAR Need-searching and seeking for the Eye, I'm stating, that seeking for the Eye also requires an "operator". Moiraine was that operator, her Need was the Need of the whole world actually, and all the powerful ta'veren were only her tool. Moiraine's activity was needed to provide the triggering of the Need-process, to reveal the need beared unconsciously by the three ta'veren and the whole grop.

6

Callandor: 2004-11-04

**However it was Moiraine who came first to the Eye also in that second visit, she was the first to be greeted by the Nym (she was an AS thought and for an AoLer Nym this is something important), while the "need" could do it so that the true owner of the need to come into the Green Man's Grove and Moiraine to remain alone in the Blight.**

It's a Tel'aran'rhiod effect. What works for one, works for the group. See Nynaeve and Elayne using need and time effects in Tel'aran'rhiod (as in, time passes at the same rate for more then one person when they are together, but seperate they go at different rates).

**The Need was "our", but Moiraine was the only one who arranged the whole quest, who decided everything about it, who leaded it from the beginning to it's successful end. The Need was "our" but the only active role in the whole story was Moiraine's. Her role was too important for to be unrelated to the Need, that brought them to the Eye.**

So informing someone that something needs to be done, makes you the center of it? Moiraine told them they needed to get to the Eye, that they were the source of the need. Hence, they became aware of it and sought it. They caused the need; not Moiraine.

**Whithout Moiraine I doubt any one of the three boys would come to the Eye. Moiraine was important part of that "we" in this time.**

Of course they wouldn't have. But that does not mean she was the one that cause the need to work in finding the Green Man. She played a part in bringing it about, but that's like the Wise Ones telling Nynaeve and Elayne how to use Need; they weren't searching for the Bowl of the Winds, they just informed them it's possible.

**When an Wise One begins a serch in TAR, most commonly it is not just her need, but a need of the sept or the clan.**

Does the entire sept or clan search with her? No. Some other Wise Ones might, but not the entire sept or clan.

**The Dreamwalker only operates with this need.**

By making it "her" need.

**So in the case of Elayne's search for the Bowl, the Need is the Need of the whole Westlands, but it doesn't exist more in TAR after sertain Nynaeve Sedai and Elayne Sedai finished their attempt.**

It's their need to find it; the whole westlands do not participate in finding it. Anyone else in the westlands can go into Tel'aran'rhiod, use need at that time, and find the Bowl.

**And I'm affraid that a poor Dreamwalker would cause exactly the problem with some important Need if allowed to do so: to waste the possibility to search for a Need by not understanding the results or if she dies during the process.**

For ~her~ alone, if she was searching for it. ~Any~ other Wise One can do the same search as long as it hasn't already been found.

**Because of the similariyt of TAR Need-searching and seeking for the Eye, I'm stating, that seeking for the Eye also requires an "operator". Moiraine was that operator, her Need was the Need of the whole world actually, and all the powerful ta'veren were only her tool. Moiraine's activity was needed to provide the triggering of the Need-process, to reveal the need beared unconsciously by the three ta'veren and the whole grop.**

Argh, you are simply not listening.

Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Nynaeve -- ALL knew they ~needed~ to find the Eye of the world. Since they were all in a group, comprising Moiraine and Lan, they were taken with.

Otherwise, why did their horses go along, if the entire group is not effected? Surely their horses have no concept of need for the Eye of the World.

You are saying that all the need that Rand and Co. had, poured into Moiraine and she used it to search. Wrong.

They had the need. They used it. Moiraine was carried along, since she already had been there.

7

matoyak: 2004-11-05

actually, egweene (or was it elayne and nynaeve?) used need several times in t'a'r to find the bowl of the winds

8

a dragonburned fool: 2004-11-10

**So informing someone that something needs to be done, makes you the center of it? Moiraine told them they needed to get to the Eye, that they were the source of the need. Hence, they became aware of it and sought it. They caused the need; not Moiraine.**

What, Moiraine role in searching of the Eye to be described as "informing" the three ta'veren what is the Need and letting them doing everything? It's not easy for me to see the things so. The Wise Ones informed Elayne and Egwene how need-serching has to be done and Elayne and Nynaeve did everything theirselves: that was example of informing. Moiraine's role was something completely different. Moiraine has the full scale leadership during the whole search, and the ta'verens did only what Moiraine said, only when Moiraine said and only how Moiraine said. And that about every detail of the Blight adventure. Did any one of the ta'veren made anything active during the whole search for the Eye? Not. The only thing they did was to be there and to obey to whatever Moiraine and Lan say them. Definitely she was the main will behind the whole search. Not that the ta'veren were willless, they were just too much subordinate to Moiraine's will in all details of this search. Moiraine was the one who concentrated on how exactly to search, she was the one who controlled all the Will efforts for the seeking. Her role in the seeking for the eye was too active and determinative in all it's phases for to be seen as just added to the group of searchers.

The Green man had to feel the Need and to come to the searcher. Ta'verens are needed for to generate the broadcast of this need. Maybe it aws even not needed for them to be aware about this Need, I don't know. One of the things Moiraine had to do was to bring them close to the place where the Green Man can ever interefere. Another thing she had to care was to let into the group no one who could weaken the chances the Green Man to find them. For this reason she very resolutely rejects the very energic offers of Lord Agelmar to come with or to send somebody of his men. This Moiraine's refusal means that it is not enough for the required person to be present in the searching group, but also that anybody who could import wrong "need" must be NOT present in this group. Therefore everybody included in the group (the sentient members of the group apparently) must match very high requirements for a searcher. I.e. Moiraine also must match the criteria for to be able to be in the group.

In the Blight there is no step-by-step precising of the searching like in TAR, the Green Man either finds them or not, so maybe the activity during the search is not so important as in TAR-search. What must be done by searchers is that the Green Man senses them. I.e. they have to express the Need in some way, they have to represent the Need without any sort of "noise" (and co-searchers like Lord Agelmar would increase the "noise" and make the Need less sensible by the Green Man, thus the importance of the absence of Lord Agelmar). For that while in the Bligth the group has to maintain synchron in representing the Need.

Here may be useful a similarity with how group belief works in TAR. Not like Callandor said "What works for one, works for the group", but rather only what works for the group can work for every one of them. When Sheriam and her clique got stuck in the nightmare, Elayne and Siuan cannot release them without entering the nightmare and convincing Sheriam and the others to help cope with it. The synchronous participation of everybody in the group was needed for the effect to be achieved. The group for seeking the Eye also would need such synchron. And who was the conductor of this synchron for all the time of the search? Moiraine. She hasn't ended her role by telling to the boys what is the Need (btw I don't think any on of the ta'verens understood it good enough, or that anyone of them feeled this Need as Moiraine feeled it). From the beginning of the search to it's successful end she was determining what all the others would do and want (because she is the only one who knows anyhting all the time and all others can only trust her).

**Otherwise, why did their horses go along, if the entire group is not effected? Surely their horses have no concept of need for the Eye of the World.**

Unike the humans the horses have no concept of need at all and so they do not hinder the searcher's synchron, the horses are completely neutral. While every human will have some own understanding of what is needed, and if it is not the true Need, it would hinder the others in the group (as Moiraine explains to Agelmar).

**-The Dreamwalker only operates with this need.

- By making it "her" need.**

Good point, it is really not to been neglected that the Dreamwalker cannot remain irrelevant to the Need while providing the search. However that doesn't damage what I said: that the dreamwalker operates with a Need that is not only her's. Making the need her own need will give the Dreamwalker access into the process. The interesting begins after adopting this need: the dreamwalker has to actively search and not to stop until the last destination is achieved. The Dreamwalker does something to this Need (that is not only her need): that was what I want to understand. I see in what the dreamwalker does analog to clearing an audio broadcast from transmission noise. The device that does it cannot create the music it receives, but without it the signal will be not sound as it must, because of various noise, and because the signal needs to be amplified for to regain it's original strenght. The Dreamwalker's function is to present the Need to the Wheel for privileged processing. The Dreamwalker as if attracts the Patterns attention to the particular Need.

**For ~her~ alone, if she was searching for it. ~Any~ other Wise One can do the same search as long as it hasn't already been found.**

Have You any argument for stating that? I see it as the one of the two possible options: 1. As YOu said any Wise One can search for a Need another Wise One failed to understand before; or 2. If one Wise One spoils the search no other Dreamwalker can search for the same need. The metaphor the Wise Ones use for the Need-search - that the idea of using it second time is as if eating a second time the same apple means that the "need" component used in search is expired during the search. You would be right only if it expires only inside the particular Dreamwalker. But if so, why the Dreamwalker would not make the Need her own Need again? Maybe there could be found some explanations, but the option 2. just has not problems like that. My hypothesis that the Wheel makes the search as if for itself and after the completing it marks the Need as done, would explain this Need expiring better.

9

Callandor: 2004-11-11

**Moiraine's role was something completely different.**

No, it wasn't; it was just subtlety.

**TITLE: Eye of the World

CHAPTER: 46 - Fal Dara

"No one finds the Eye of the World," Moiraine said, "unless the Green Man wants them to find it. Need is the key, and intention. I know where to go - I have been there before." Rand's head whipped around in surprise; his was not the only one among the Emond's Fielders, but the Aes Sedai did not seem to notice. "But one among us seeking glory, seeking to add his name to those four, and we may never find it though I take us straight to the spot I remember."

"Need is the key," Moiraine said softly, "and there can be no greater Need than mine. Than ours. *And I have something those other seekers have not."***

**TITLE: Eye of the World

CHAPTER: 49 - The Dark One Stirs

"Need," Moiraine replied. "My Need, the world's Need. Most of all is the world's Need. We have come to see the Eye of the World."

"Then we will continue to hunt until we do find it. The Green Man senses need, and there can be no need greater than ours. Our need is the hope of the world."**

**Moiraine has the full scale leadership during the whole search, and the ta'verens did only what Moiraine said, only when Moiraine said and only how Moiraine said.**

Oh, wait, wait, wait. Let me get this straight:

Because Moiraine did not use the need herself, because Rand and co. performed the function, she is the cause of it, and it should not have worked?

That is total crap, adf.

Moiraine wants to go to the Green Man because that is where the Eye of the World is. She has already used her need. She knows others have found it. She makes others, very important others, have the need to find the Green Man for her.

**Definitely she was the main will behind the whole search.**

**Moiraine was the one who concentrated on how exactly to search, she was the one who controlled all the Will efforts for the seeking.**

I will keep pointing out adf, Need is the key. Moiraine used her need. The rest of the people had not (excepting Lan who could've). Hence, it was their need, not Moiraines; hence, they brought her, not the other way around.

**Therefore everybody included in the group (the sentient members of the group apparently) must match very high requirements for a searcher. I.e. Moiraine also must match the criteria for to be able to be in the group.**

She has to not be searching for glory; duh, she's searching to help the Dragon Reborn, her life's work.

**Unike the humans the horses have no concept of need at all and so they do not hinder the searcher's synchron, the horses are completely neutral. While every human will have some own understanding of what is needed, and if it is not the true Need, it would hinder the others in the group (as Moiraine explains to Agelmar).**

Blah, blah, blah; they're in the group, they went along. Otherwise rocks and other things would be coming along as well.

**However that doesn't damage what I said: that the dreamwalker operates with a Need that is not only her's. Making the need her own need will give the Dreamwalker access into the process. The interesting begins after adopting this need: the dreamwalker has to actively search and not to stop until the last destination is achieved.**

Uh, no. The Dreamwalker can leave Tel'aran'rhiod at anytime. They stay through to the end, for their cause. See Nynaeve and Elayne using need and going to the Tower.

**Have You any argument for stating that? I see it as the one of the two possible options: 1. As YOu said any Wise One can search for a Need another Wise One failed to understand before; or 2. If one Wise One spoils the search no other Dreamwalker can search for the same need.**

By argument, you mean proof, then yes:

**RJ Interview Dunwoody, Georgia; 9 October, 1996

Q: Could a 2nd person have "needed" the bowl and found it?

RJ: Maybe. Didn't think of it.**

**But if so, why the Dreamwalker would not make the Need her own Need again?**

Ask RJ not me. Some things are just the way they are, adf.

10

a dragonburned fool: 2004-11-18

**Q: Could a 2nd person have "needed" the bowl and found it?

RJ: Maybe. Didn't think of it.**

~~with bitter laught~~ So, we were both wrong, because RJ's answer about this topic is, that he has not thought about, i.e. the very question was unrelated to what RJ really thought about the need-searching of Dreamwalkers. RJ just has no opinion about the possibility of another dreamwalker using the same need, and asked he's hesitating! Just amazing! And I, the fool, relied in my argumentation on the assumption, that he as usual thought it trought and has detailed basic theory behind it... In this case RJ expresses uncertainness about the question without avoiding it (what is not like him), so he either 1. thinks that the question is not interesting and he doesn't need to have any opinion about it for to have consistent understanding on need-searching, or 2. he thinks that it is a question he must think throught it first for not to miss any consequence so he wouldn't risk to answer it immediately before thinking. In both cases it was not an aspect he thought about, but when asked he notices the both possibilites: that a 2nd dreamwalker can use need used by another one, or that she cannot. Whatever it is, until RJ has no opinion about it, the discussion about a 2nd WO using the same need, is pointless now.

What is left, if all second dreamwalker questions are to be ruled out? Left is the question, what exacxtly the dreamwalker does to the need when searching. She does something actively, while she definitely cannot create a need, but only use an already existing one. So a need exists - why the dreamwalker has to do anything, why doesn't the answer come from itself when the dreamwalker comes in TAR (like the meaningfull dreams, the Dreaqmers have, or like the Foretellings)? The search doesn't activate before the dreamwalker concentrates. Why the Wheel will need her to concentrate? What exactly is the Dreamwalker doing to the Need while concentrating.

My answer is that the Dreamwalker makes a presentation. Presentation of the Need to the Pattern. The Pattern would process the Need whatever the Dreamwalker does, but the presentation of the Dreamwalker makes the Pattern's response in a form that the Dreamwalker can understand, a response backward-compatible to the Dreamwalker. A very slight difference in teh format of the Pattern's response, that is unsignificant for the Pattern itself, but it's significant for the ability of the Dreamwalker to receive it.

**The Dreamwalker can leave Tel'aran'rhiod at anytime. They stay through to the end, for their cause.**

But if the Dreamwalker leaves TAR before having the best result possible, the Need she used would be already used out, and she could never go back and resume the searching. Once a dreamwalker goes out, the search is over. How much of the need potential the Dreamwalker will use depends on her actoins, if she spoiles it, she will have no other chance with the same need (that at least is something proven to be impossible, for Nyneave and Elayne want to resume their search for the Bowl for more details, and the WO said them it's absurd because the search is done and gone.

And about Moiraine and the search of the Eye:

All the quotes show Moiraine speaking about the search and the Need as "ours" i.e. including Moiraine herself. SHe never say to Rand "Your" need, she says only "ours".

For example:

**"Need," Moiraine replied. "__My__ Need, the world's Need. Most of all is the world's Need. We have come to see the Eye of the World."**

or:

**"Need is the key," Moiraine said softly, "and there can be no greater Need than __mine__. Than ours. *And I have something those other seekers have not."**

Here Moiraine even mentoins herself in 1 person singular, i.e. when she in other cases says "our need" she doesn't exclude herself. The quotes say that Moiraine believes this need is also her.

And about the difference between horses and humans in conditions who can be there:

the quote is:

**"But one among us seeking glory, seeking to add his name to those four, and we may never find it though I take us straight to the spot I remember."**

So never mind the strongest ta'veren suit ever existed is there a single Joe Gloryseeker in the group will spoil everything. Why seeking glory is so important? Because it's different subjective need. Discrepance in the need-definition of the grou will make the whole group invisible for the Green Man. Horses are guaranteed not glory-seekers. Horses seek for nothing and they just go where they are turned. They have no connectoin to any kind of seeking. Could any human be just there? Maybe if it was an idle visit of the closest inn. But I cannot imagine a mature sane-minded human in so obviously dangerous environement like the Blight to go forth and to seek nothing but just be there. Every person in the group would be after something. And if anybody of them will be after something else than the true Need, then the mission is over.

** - "Moiraine has the full scale leadership during the whole search, and the ta'verens did only what Moiraine said, only when Moiraine said and only how Moiraine said."

- Oh, wait, wait, wait. Let me get this straight:

Because Moiraine did not use the need herself, because Rand and co. performed the function, she is the cause of it, and it should not have worked?**

What is the similarity between what I said, and the way You interprete me, Callie (I know what You are thinking about anybody calling You so, but You also know what I feel about calling the words of Your opponent a "crap", right? So You have to agree with an equal treatment)? I said that Moiraine is not the cause of the Need, but the operator of it. She actively works with the Need common for her and the ta'verens. Actually it is not so important, is theis Need also Moiraine's or not, the important thing is that this Need requires some leader, who has to present it, and this operator is Moiraine, not anybody else.