ime and TAR
by jason: 2004-09-19 | Not yet rated
When reading through the section on whether or not Gaidal Cain was Olver I came across the debate over how time moved in TAR. We know that time is not always in direct sync with the real world, and we have seen many examples with Birgitte and co. and I believe it was rubbernilly who suggested that time moves like a wave in TAR going faster or slower at random intervals. When I heard this my first thought was something akin to the sine wave, or the graph of y=sin(x) which for anyone who isn't a math type, it just flows up and down evenly above the line y=0, a straight horizontal line.
However, I read somewhere in an RJ interview that time in TAR isn't a constant, and in different places time will flow at different rates and that different individuals will experience different time flow. (I don't have the exact quote if someone could help me out that would be great) It also said that people who are in the same area, conversing with each other and such, they will experience time at the same rate. What this made me think was that time was based on people's perceptions.
The Fires Of Heaven-Ch14, Meetings, p273.
Birgitte: "I do not know Nynaeve. Time here is not like time in the waking world. I met you last here ten days gone and Elayne only a day before, as it seems to me. What was it for you?
"Four days and three," Nynaeve muttered.
"You see, Nynaeve? The flow of time here can shift in larger ways too, it might be months before I am born again or days. Here, for me. In the waking world it could be years yet before my birth."
Obviously, time in TAR can move both slower and faster, and according to Birgitte it is capable of huge shifts, i.e. years into days and such. However though, i think that it is not time shifting so much as a person's veiw of the passage of time, or how they perceive it. This would account for how two people can be in TAR at the same time, but feel a diffferent amount of time has passed. We also have the constantly mentioned fact that TAR like all the other alternate worlds is a reflection of the real world. By this, I think we can safely assume that each point(time) of the real world corresponds to a point in the reflection worlds including TAR. This means that as time in the real world passes, the same point in TAR has to pass. Getting back to the theory of perception, I think that each point passes together, linearly, as in a horizontal line. However I think that the distortion of reality that occurs in TAR is what causes a person to perceive time differently. For example, a person's view of time is y=2x or for every two hours, they feel only 1 hour in TAR, but time in the real world is still moving constantly in both places. This also better explains the reflections of objects that appear in TAR.
We know RJ has a tendency to define abstract concepts with a few solid rules, such as giving specific powers to the One Power, so I cant see him just leaving it as a completely random aspect of TAR. (I'm convinced that using need to find the Bowl of the Winds was just a way for him to resolve the issue without dragging it into 8 books of searching door to door. Something had to give!) Plus this explains how time can seem to move in random bumps and jumps, but still function as a reflection of the real world. I realize this theory involves a good deal of conjecture, but I haven't found anything out there that appeals to me so feel free to shoot this down.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2004-11-24
(Frenzy for Tamrylin)
Considering Jordan's background in Physics, this conceptually makes sense. What would be interesting to discern is if the differences in percieved time changes are random or constant, and therefor predictable.
2
Callandor: 2004-11-24
**However, I read somewhere in an RJ interview that time in TAR isn't a constant, and in different places time will flow at different rates and that different individuals will experience different time flow. (I don't have the exact quote if someone could help me out that would be great) It also said that people who are in the same area, conversing with each other and such, they will experience time at the same rate. What this made me think was that time was based on people's perceptions.**
I've seen the same quote and surprisingly can't find it right now.
**Obviously, time in TAR can move both slower and faster, and according to Birgitte it is capable of huge shifts, i.e. years into days and such. However though, i think that it is not time shifting so much as a person's veiw of the passage of time, or how they perceive it. This would account for how two people can be in TAR at the same time, but feel a diffferent amount of time has passed.**
Two people in a group together in Tel'aran'rhiod will experience time changes the same way; being in a different location seems to be the factor.
**We know RJ has a tendency to define abstract concepts with a few solid rules, such as giving specific powers to the One Power, so I cant see him just leaving it as a completely random aspect of TAR.**
Isn't it that time moving at totally random times, a solid rule? ;) One of a few for Tel'aran'rhiod.
3
monkey: 2004-11-26
it seems to me that time is similar to manipulation, as with other things in TAR. I agree with your theory about perception, and the movements in time would coincide with peoples abilitys to alter that which is happening around them, you just have to fix in your mind that something is so and it becomes as such eg. the horrors the salidar gang faced whilst being taught.
I believe that that people strong in the dream can affect time in TAR as they would, changing locations and creating monsters and the like.
There obviously has to be some mirroring of the passage of time with the real world as with other things in TAR, but this would conform with the normal rules in terms of what you can and cannot do whilst there
4
Aiel Finn: 2004-11-26
As RJ says, time flows differently for different parts of TAR but it is the same for two people who are together. The only other thing is that time flows forwards for both at all times. I have always seen the difference in flow rates as a heterogenous multifractal. This means that two places close together will not be very differnt, but place far apart will be randomly different. This can also be extended into a 4th demension, the rate at a certian point is seemingly constant for short periods of time, but over long times, it changes randomly. This pattern looks like clouds, or like a topo map. With RJ's background I could see him using this sort of model to describe TAR's time relation.
5
a dragonburned fool: 2004-11-30
It is a very good idea to explain the reality shifts in TAR via discrepancies of time flows. Thank You for opening my eyes about this connection.
However the interview stated not that time in defferent parts of TAR is variable, but that the time flow doesn't match between TAR and the waked world. I don't remember two persons being in TAR in the same time to experience different time flow (such different time flow occurs in the land of Aelfinns, but not in TAR). Various until now was only the relation between the timeflow in waked world and timeflow in TAR.
Also Your idea that the time flow in TAR depends on the perception of the indvidual dreamwalker doesn't match what we know about dreamwalker experience form the books. The base of Wise Ones' teaching is to control the manner tehy perceive the reality, and dreamwalker change this manner and do lot of interesting things, but never in the books we have any example of a dreamwalker deliberately changing the timeflow.
Having all that in mind a more precise explanation would maybe the following:
Every unanimated object from the waked world has it's reflection in TAR. When the object in the waked world is moving, it's reflection moves also. But every object is reflected in TAR with different and variable synchronization. And the time synchronization of every object with it's TAR equivalent is different from the synchronization of every other object. Objects that usually don't move make this discrepance unsignificant because it is not important is one tree is 5 minutes later than the tree beneath it. But frequently moved objects just cannot synchronize with the other objects around them.
6
Aiel Finn: 2004-12-01
What I was saying is that time is almost never in sync with the waking world, but the degree of difference doesn't change with a step, it changes slowly. This difference would be the reason that movable objects change position with each glance. When you are looking at an object, you are fixing it's position. When you look away, you stop concentrating and it goes back to where it is in the waking world. Because time is different, things move differently by nature, but the viewer's mind can't accept this and thus makes them stand still when they are being looked at.
7
a dragonburned fool: 2004-12-03
Aiel Flinn,
Your explanation is very plausible and it would be the first to come to mind if my explanation would become disproven. Why I do stay for priority for my explanation then? Because I have a reason to believe, that if there are problems with time synchronization between TAR and walked world the problems with object reflection have much more chances to appear then processes that are already inside TAR. What I mean is, that everything of a unanimated object we see in TAR needs to be continuously updated. When the object changes in the waked world it hase to send an update reflection to TAR. When it doesn't change, it also will sent a reflection (the proof for the last is the fact, that when something in TAR is balefired, it becomes to re-appear with a given periodity, i.e. the waked world sends new reflections and they refresh the TAR object). And that is for every single bloody unanimated object. It's incredible amount of updates and refreshes, and nothing to wonder if TAR behaves sometimes like an over-utilized video-conference session. Updates and refreshes continue to change the TAR environment overwriting it again and again and it is easy to expect jittered picture in effect. A dreamwalker, unlike these refreshable reflectoins, is an object independent of refreshes from outside, and it would be easier for TAR to synchronize the dreamwalker than the updates from outside.
8
Dragons Shadow: 2004-12-10
Fundamental to contemporary Quantum Theory is the notion that there is no phenomenon until it is observed. This effect is known as the 'Observer Effect'. TAR is the ultimate expression of this effect. TAR is the sum total of ALL dreams in every world affected by EVERY person who is currently dreaming. Thus, in the parts of TAR that reflect mainly the dreams of people in worlds that have an accelerated flow of time - time will move faster, and vice-versa. There are an infinate number of perceived realities in Jordan's universe that each have their own physical laws. Thus the reflection in the dreams of its people will adjust TAR according to the beliefs of that reality's people. In a nutshell: Belief creates reality and the belief of the many will almost always outweigh the beliefs of the few.
9
TheJester: 2004-12-14
Sorry but I am a Quantum Mechanic, the only notion that QM can apply to TAR is that all observable time flows forward, time only has a concievable backward effect for then dealing with Electrodynamics but as yet there has been no connection made between the two areas of physics.
The obeservor effect is where the wavefunction collapses and is known to exist as an external pertubation upon the system.
The difference in time thoery relates to the (delta)E*(delata)t=h/(2*PI) formula but even this refers to forward motiion in time.
I personally believe that Jordan has side stepped this requirement to his reality as he has created a *fantas*tic novel series in that what he decides is true *is true*.
