he Cleansing
by a dragonburned fool: 2004-10-02 | Not yet rated
RJ apparently used the scene of the Cleansing of saidin as a chance to "explain" the fundamental theory about the opposity between saidin and saidar and between the Shadow and Shadar Logoth. The main thing here is that the opposites of WoT are not the opposites of the both ends of a line, but the opposites of the diametral sides of a circle. As RJ is saying in an interview:
Quote:
"You don't think it's obvious? Err, let's see. You have.. You're using both repulsion and attration of opposites here. Repulsion of things that are opposite and repulsion of things that are the same. The Taint upon the... as versus the conduit, which is made of saidar through which the saidin passes. The saidin and saidar, as men and women, are in many ways opposite. It repels one another. It is safe to make this conduit of saidar between saidin and Shadar Logoth, because there can be no mixing. As the eh.. as saidin passes through, as the taint passes through, the saidar actually repels it, pushes it away from the ..., alright? Now, you have a taint on ... the eh source, the male half of the source, you have the taint on shadar logoth. They're not the same, yet they are. The Taint on Shadar Logoth did not come from the Dark One. The taint was created by humans, who believed that they must do whatever was necessary, anything that was necessary to defeat the Shadow. And because they would accept no limits to what they would do, to what could be done, to what needed to be done, they created their own destruction. Their evil is, or was, as great as that of the Dark One, but diametrically opposite. It is an evil created for the best of intentions, created for good intentions. So it is the opposite. So, this attraction created the conduit begins to pull the Taint from saidin to cipher it of. Remember, it's always been described it's not at mixed all through saidin , it is like a thin skin of rancidness, think of a thin skin of rancid oil floating on a pond, and if you get through it, you've got clean water, but you can't get through it without putting your hand in that oil. You're getting it on your hand... To attract one another because they are opposites, but because even being opposite, they have gone far enough around the circle, they act to destroy one another. You see, it's not opposites along a straight line. We're actually talking opposites along a circle. Continuing the motif of the Wheel of Time, if you will. So you've got two things that are both opposites and the same.That will both attract one another and negate one another."
Once, we have the statement, that the opposites are not opposites of a line, but opposites of a circle, it is a logical consequence that they are both opposite and the same. In a turning of an wheel the movement upwards and the movement downwards are both opposite and the same. Also, when you move in circle fast enough, both centrifigal and centripetal forces occur, so that any part of the wheel, while moved, is both attracted to the centre and repelled away from it.
Now there are methods of using exactly centrifugal and centripetal forces for dividing mixed stuff into clean parts. IMO Rand created a centrifuge to make the Cleansing. He noticed in his PoV just before the Cleansing, that the Taint and the SL-evil in his wounds both pulse but in opposite phase. Two things pulsing in opposite phase means, that when #1 is up, #2 is down, and when #1 is down, #2 is up. The same is true also about the opposite ends of a turning wheel. I.e. the taint and SL-evil are also the opposite directions of movement in the same circle.
So we have two circles: 1. saidin-saidar, 2. taint-SL. Rand moves saidin, and the saidar funnel is along the "surface" of saidin. Saidar is moving upwards, and saidin's natural movement is downwards (I use these distribution of "upwards" and "downwards", because if the stream of OP was a stream of a water in circular pipe, saidin is like rushing of the water down, and saidar is like moving it up because of the pressure): these both movements both affect the place on the surface of saidin, where the taint is, and so create extreme tension there, making the taint to move.
Quote from Winter's Hearth, ch.35:
"Drawing on saidin, fighting it, mastering it in the deadly dance he knew so well, he forced it into the flowery weave of saidar. And it flowed through saidin and saidar, like and unlike, could not mix. The flow of saidin squeezed in on itself, away from the surrounding saidar, and the saidar pushed it from all sides, compressing it further, making it flow faster. Pure saidin, pure except for the taint, touched Shadar Logoth."
So, saidin is sqeezed away from saidar and saidar presses saidin to move faster: the saidar is the flow under pressure and saidin is a flow that naturally runs away, so the saidar funnel with it's flower-like, rich of spirales form, is functioning like a propeller, like a fan. The movement of the flow of One Power can keep be movement only if there is movement in the both directions. This is the reason for saidin and saidar to cannot mix, despite of being two halves of the "one" Power. The movement of the one half requires the movement of the other half, and if one half moves more intensive, the other half will move laso more intensive ... in the opposite direction. Movement in the one direction causes also movement in the other direction.
Why this is important for moving the taint? Because the taint and the SL-evil form also a circle like the one of saidin and saidar, and the SL-evil is the opposite direction to the natural direction of movement of the taint (Shadar Logoth's idea was to oppose the Shadow with Shadow's means, i.e. it is the same force as the Shadow's effect, but in the opposite direction).
Quote:
"Awkwardly, forcing himself to work gently, to use the unfamiliar saidar's own immense strength to guide it as he wanted, he wove a conduit that touched the male half of the Source at one end and the distantly seen city at the other. The conduit had to be of untainted saidar. If this worked as he hoped, a tube of saidin might shatter when the taint began to leech out of it. He thought of it as a tube, at least, though it was not. The weave did not form at all as he expected it to. As if saidar had a mind of its own, the weave took on convolutions and spirals that made him think of a flower. There was nothing to see, no grand weaves sweeping down from the sky. The Source lay at the heart of creation. The Source was everywhere, even in Shadar Logoth. The conduit covered distance beyond his imagining, and had no length at all. It had to be a conduit, no matter its appearance. If it was not...."
Why it is so important to touch Shadar Logoth with saidin through a saidar tube? Because saidin is in the state of being pressed by saidar and the same kind of movement is to be induced in the Shadar logoth , so that the taint to be put into a tube of SL-evil. The movement in one direction causes the movement in the other direction: both for the saidar-saidin circle and the taint-mashadar circle. The movement in both direction forms a rotating circle. The moving taint (together with the moving saidin) must approach Shadar Logoth in polarized manner, in moving only in one direction to the geographical location of Shadar Logoth, for to force the SL-evil to move also in concentrated manner, one-directionally. This is the need of conduiting the saidin through untainted saidar: the saidin and therefore also taint will be focused and concentrated when apporaching Shadar Logoth.
The saidar funnel is in the same time on the surface of Saidin and in Shadar Logoth, so the movement, that is forced on the Taint, is the same movement that is forced on Shadar Logoth. And SL-evil begins also to move. But it moves in the opposite to the taint direction. So both together form a wheel. Or more precisely they form a whirlpool. The taint and the SL-evil force each other into an whirl, and the more taint comes in, the faster is the whirlpool, and the faster is the whirlpool, the closer it goes to it's centre. This whirlpool is the black dome. The combination of saidin movement and the saidar funnel cause overweighted centrifugal force, and that causes overweighted centripetal force in the Black Dome. The Black Dome sucks too much into it's centre, so, when it becomes too much, it collapses and implodes. But the Black Dome was not a bubble but whirlwind, i.e. it existed because of the movement, not because of mass of matter, so, when it collapsed it stopped to move, and when it stopped to move, it ceased to exist, and became a very little black hole. Thus the large hole that begins to form slowly in the place of Shadar Logoth, the hole that wasn't there when Cadsuane leaved the place, but that was miles deep, when Akkarin visited the place.
What happened with the Taint through the Cleansing process was experienced by Rand as shifting. And the more chaos and turbulent experience with the One Power, the more shifting:
Quote:
"Inside his head, Rand was screaming. He was sure that he was screaming, that Lews Therin was screaming, but he could not hear either voice in the roar. The foul ocean of the taint was flooding through him, howling with its speed. Tidal waves of vileness crashed over him. Raging gales of filth ripped at him. The only reason he knew that he still held the Power was the taint. Saidin could be shifting, flaring, about to kill him, and he would never know. That putrid flood overwhelmed everything else, and he hung on by his fingernails to keep from being swept away on it. The taint was moving. That was all that counted, now. He had to hold on!"
The taint because of the fast movement is engaged in the whirl with the SL-evil, and this attraction is stronger that the attachment of the Taint to the surface of saidin. So the taint moves from the saidin to Shadar Logoth. It would move back after the finishing of the process if the whirlwing haven't imploded. But it imploded and caused a black hole, and so was stuck in the location of Shadar Logoth maybe forever, and was not to return to the Source.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2004-11-30
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
I've always held that the evil of Shadar Logoth and the evil of the Shadow were completely separate. One is the evil of Man, the other is the evil of the Dark One. This wheel analogy puts a wrench in that. Which isn't a problem, though it opens up lines of thought which i do have problems with. The illogical extreme is that all evil comes from the Dark One, and humanity is absolved of responsibility. Or that all evil comes from humanity and the Dark One is a construct of that selfsame evil. Neither extreme makes sense in Jordan's world.
Rand used saidar and pure saidin (opposites) to force the Taint into Shadar Logoth (also opposites). Since opposites can't coexist (based on quotes) they annilhilate each other. Which would explain why the Taint and Shadar Logoth went "away," and why there's a big hole where the two met.
2
Callandor: 2004-11-30
You're looking way too much into a very simple thing, adf.
Rand made a tunnel of pure saidar that connected both Shadar Logoth and saidin. He channeled a large amount of saidin through the tube and had it touch Shadar Logoth enough for it to become attractive. Once this was complete, all Rand had to do was hold on and the rest of the taint went through to Shadar Logoth and was destroyed.
**This is the reason for saidin and saidar to cannot mix, despite of being two halves of the "one" Power.**
I like the very simple explaination: the both attract and repell each other. And RJ said that they cannot mix. Call me a simplist.
3
Aiel Finn: 2004-11-30
I belive that Sadiar and Sadin are not so much oposites but more immiscible liquids like water and oil. They are the same but cannot mix. This is why the sadin is repelled by the tube. Water is repeled by oil.
4
a dragonburned fool: 2004-12-03
Frenzy,
**Since opposites can't coexist (based on quotes) they annilhilate each other. Which would explain why the Taint and Shadar Logoth went "away," and why there's a big hole where the two met.**
It was my first thought when I begun to think about the Cleansing. But the comparison RJ made between Saidin/saidar and DO/SL made me to doubt in the possiblitly of plain annihilation. If it was so, then meeting of saidin and saidar also at least could lead to annihilation. In case that coexistence of opposities was something causing an annihilation, the circle between male and female channelers would be more dangerous than loose balefire. Instead of it in the Cleansing scene we see how saidin and saidar force each other to move faster. That made me to suppose that the both Evils would do also. That made me to conclude the whirlpool solution instead of annihilation. An whirlpool with a speed fast enough can lead to black hole effect, that could explain the implosion and the big hole.
Callandor,
I know you don't like complicated solutions, and i agree, that usually simple answers are better than even very well proven convoluted ones (unless the simple answers miss to adress some aspects of the situation, what is the most often problem with simple answers). But I'd say that the rule to prefer the more simple answer works only if the simple answer is an alternative to the complicated, not when the complicated one is just going deeper in the more simple one. Now, my theory is actually also saying that "He channeled a large amount of saidin through the tube and had it touch Shadar Logoth enough for it to become attractive", and all the complicated details of it were my attempt to explain what exactly means for Shadar Logoth to become attractive, and why the tunnel of saidin and saidar will make it more attractive (Saidin, i.e. also the Taint is already everywhere, i.e. also in Shadar Logoth, so what Rand's "tube" _is_ then. It even doesn't look like a tube, it is only thought by Rand to be functional equivalent of a tube).
Aiel Finn,
I don't see how Your water and oil analogy can fit into the circle metaphor Jordan used to describe his concept of the opposition. Let quote RJ's words again:
"You see, it's not opposites along a straight line. We're actually talking opposites along a circle. Continuing the motif of the Wheel of Time, if you will. So you've got two things that are both opposites and the same.That will both attract one another and negate one another."
It is what RJ himself said about the relation between saidin and saidar, and between the Taint and the Shadar Logoth Evil. Whatever saidin and saidar are, they must not only be unable to mix, but also to be the same, they must not only repell each other, but also attract each other. I don't see how water and oil will explain it.
RJ actually uses the awter and oil metaphor, but he uses it not for the relatoin betwen saidin and saidar, but for the relation between saidin and the Taint.
5
Callandor: 2004-12-04
Theres no need for it. Rand did this, this, and this. Saidin and saidar turning into airfoils, is quite unnecessary. As I've said, you don't need the absolutely totality broken down explanation.
Saidar and saidin attract and repell. Shadar Logoth evil and Dark One evil attract and repell. There you go!
6
Aiel Finn: 2004-12-04
My water and oil metaphor is more in how Sadin and Sadiar interact, except that Sadin and Sadiar aren't differnt densities. This means that they end up forcing the other away like water on an waxed or oiled surface. This is why Rand can contain Sadin in a tube of Saidar. The Sadin cannot mix with or destroy Sadiar. Because of this it clumps together and flows through the tube through a sort of capliary action. The Taint and SL Evil are not like this. They are opposite like opposing charges. They attract and analialate each other. This is why Shadar Mandarb "draws Shadowspawn's bones". The two taints attract each other and want to destroy each other.
7
a dragonburned fool: 2004-12-07
Aiel Finn,
You are stating that the saidar/saidin and the Taint/Shadar Logoth were opposites in different sense. I have never thought about such possibility, but until now I thought that the books speak for the similarity of the both opposiiton. Now, when I look closer, the quotes I brought allow to be interpreted in this way. However there are another places in the books that are evidences that the both pairs of opposites are opposites in the same sense. Rand thinks several times that it is the way how saidar is opposite to saidin, that gives him the hint of how to oppose the both evils. In the beginning of the Cleansing scene, when Rand channels saidar for first time, he makes comparison to how he feels the Taint and the Shadar Logoth evil "opposite" in similar way (sorry that I cannot give the quote now). The "ancient symbol of AS" - this ying-and-yang circle, that after the Breaking becomes only to a "Flame of Tar Valon" (i.e. it's symbolizatoin of the both halves of the One Power) has exactly the circular form, Jordan says that the Opposites of his metaphysics have). Also saidin and saidar are too often mentioned in the books of being "opposites", and RJ said what he means under opposition.
The functional relation between saidin and saidar is not only in not being mixed together. The greatest wonders of the Age of Legends were maid by combined channeling of saidin and saidar. It seems that with the both halves can be maid more than with the same amount of only one of the Powers. It's something dynamical that happens between saidin and saidar, not simply not mixing. Saidin and saidar force each other.
During the Cleansing especially the opposiiton of saidin and saidar was asid to be teh driving force causing saidar to flow faster to Shadar Logoth and to cause the shifting of the Taint. It's not capillary effect, because even if Rand originally thought about what he has to make as about a tube, actually it was not a tube, but something recembling a flower. If a analogy from physics is to be found, it would be not capillary effect, but a magnetic field (lines of a magnetic field are looking like a flower when used to force flowing of something - e.g. electricity, throught them).
Also, the Taint and the SL-evil are also marked by not be able to mix. The both evils in Rand's wound don't mix even before Flinn separates them: they fight but remain completely distinct.
and Callandor,
If I understand you correctly, you can completely understand the process of the Cleansing only after reading the scene in the books and it is intuitively clear to you and you can imagine it and you know why exactly this tubing caused the Cleansing as we know it. When I see something as intuitively obvious it's difficult for me to understand those who need any further explanation for it, so I can understand your intolerance to this topic. But, please, believe me, that for me this scene is quite enigmatic and needs explanation, and form the way other people speak about it, it's a difficult matter also for them. So you are rather in a lucky minority of the persons who haven't problems with the understanding the Cleansing scene. So, be patient with us, the hardly-to-understand majority, and, if you can, explain us what is obvious for you. I know it's not easy thing to do, what I'm asking you, because you can never feel what the others don't understand, but if you do the explanation successfully, it would be very valuable to have the developed opinion of somebody having intuitive understanding of the topic.
8
Aiel Finn: 2004-12-10
I stand corrected. I guess I wasn't thinking of the Source as being everywhere reletive to the pattern. In that case, you would need something like a "flower". Magnetic field lines is a very good analogy. How else can you have everything attracted to one point