esurrection and Channeling Power
by drz1649: 2005-05-01 | 4.73 out of 10 (11 votes)
We have seen several characters reincarnated:
Aginor as Osan'gar/Dashiva
Ishamael as Moridin
Lanfear as Cyndane
Balthamel as Aran'gar/Halima
However there does not seem to be a consistent transfer of channeling ability. It is clearly stated in the guidebook that Aginor was the second most powerful of the Forsaken (after Ishamael), yet as Osan'gar he is described by Demandred (I think, book 8 or 9, during the discussion of what would happen to male Forsaken if the taint were to be removed) as weak.
Demandred also notes that Cyndane is weaker in the power than Lanfear (or so Graendal tells him).
No obvious information given about Moridin/Ishamael relative strength or the change between Balthamel/Aran'gar.
Basically, the questions boils down to:
Is channeling ability a function of
(a) the body
or
(b) the soul?
If the former, it should change with reincarnation.
If the latter, it should remain constant through successive bodies.
There is evidence for both. Balthamel continues to channel saidin despite assuming a female body, although his new strength has not been given or tested (if he killed Anaiya and the other murdered Aes Sedai, he no doubt did so by surprise, without relying on sheer strength to overpower them).
The drop in Lanfear's strength could also be attributed to interference by the Foxes or the Snakes rather than the vagaries of inhabiting a new body.
However it is harder to explain the change in Aginor, without positing some punishment by the Dark One, which seems unlikely. Why reduce the effectiveness of someone as useful as Aginor (the guy who singlehandedly made the Shadowspawn)?
The case of Ishy/Moridin provides little information. Before his untimely death he was the strongest of the Forsaken in the One Power (many sources), yet he was bested by Rand in direct confrontation (Rahvin, for example, came much closer to wasting Rand, and likely would have were it not for Nynaeve's intervention).
Since his rebirth he has not been seen to exert himself, and has restricted his channeling to the True Power. No POV's have remarked on his current strength, and it's unclear whether strength in the True Power is related to One Power strength, only that OP channeling ability is a prerequisite for TP action. Of course he is still strong enough to weave balefire (he was the Wanderer).
So there is a case for channeling strength being a function of both soul or body, and although I believe the soul makes the most sense the seemingly contradictory examples given mean it cannot be stated for sure.
Does anyone have any concrete examples of Moridin's current strength? Perhaps this will be cleared up in further books, though I hope Aginor is not reincarnated AGAIN. As much as I love the Forsaken, with so many new characters in each book Jordan can afford to let the dead lie.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2005-05-03
I like this topic; it has been addressed in different ways, but this can be confusing. First, to your question, channeling is a function of both the body and spirit. We discussed this at length last year on the message boards. The One Power is connected to the soul of an individual. A second connection exists between soul and body, something that is easily proved through an understanding of shielding, stilling, burning out, and the healing of stilling by men and women that we have seen demonstrated. Each body that can channel, genetically must be pre-disposed to do so. In other words, a channeling soul could be placed in a non channeling body, and it would not be able to channel. Also, a soul's strength helps to define the body's "bandwidth". The amount a person can channel, matures to the abilities of the soul that inhabits a body. So, a soul could be placed in a body with an established maximum bandwidth, which, it would seem, cannot be increased. A more concrete example of this occurs in healing. When not performed correctly, an individual in their own body, once stilled and healed, may not be able to channel as much as before. However, it would appear, men must heal women and women must heal men to expect to channel at the same maximum they could before they were stilled...however, this may have more to do with technique than type of OP used to do the healing, but for now it is a convenient fact of the books. Every example you cite can be explained with these rules. Lanfear/Cyndane, the body can affect the maximum, or her healing could have changed it. This explanation also takes into account moments during the Turning of the Wheel when channeling doesn't exist. While they are a variety of ways to make it impossible to channel, one obvious mechanism is that a genetic disposition doesn't exist in the physical body, making it impossible for channeling souls to ever channel (I know Weird Harold, there are others ways to explain it...). And if that was too confusing, I apologize. Here is a link to the discussion: <a href="http://b14.ezboard.com/ftheorylandfrm18.showMessage?topicID=95.topic">Souls, Bodies, and Channeling</a>.
2
Callandor: 2005-05-03
**However there does not seem to be a consistent transfer of channeling ability. It is clearly stated in the guidebook that Aginor was the second most powerful of the Forsaken (after Ishamael), yet as Osan'gar he is described by Demandred (I think, book 8 or 9, during the discussion of what would happen to male Forsaken if the taint were to be removed) as weak.**
No, he does not.
**TITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: 13 - Wonderful News
Osan'gar frowned at "idiots" and "blind fools," as well he might, but he quickly smoothed that plain, creased face, so unlike the one he had been born with. By whatever name he was called, he had always known who he dared challenge and who not. "A matter of chance," he said calmly, though he did begin dry-washing his hands. An old habit. He was garbed like some ruler of this Age, in a coat so heavy with golden embroidery that it almost hid the red of the cloth, and boots fringed with golden tassels. There was enough white lace at his neck and wrists to clothe a child. The man had never known the meaning of excess. *If not for his particular skills, he never would have been Chosen.* Realizing what his hands were doing, Osan'gar snatched the tall cuendillar wineglass from the round table beside his chair and inhaled the dark wine's aroma deeply. "Simply probabilities," he murmured, trying to sound offhand. "Next time, he will be killed or taken. Chance can't protect him forever."**
You can read it a few ways:
1. Demandred sees Aginor as weak, and the only thing that allowed him to be a Forsaken was his scientific ability.
2. Aginor is a strong channeler, and because of his scientific ability, he was ousted by society and went over to the Shadow to "experiment."
The second viewpoint might be contradicted by the BWB, however.
However, it must be pointed out that Cyndane in her POV makes clear remark about being weaker in the One Power than she was before being held. We had Osan'gar's POV just after he was transmigrated, and he makes absolutely no remark about it at all. You would think being reduced in strength would stand out, as in Lanfear's case.
And, finally, it is never stated, nor proven, by any means in the books that Lanfear was transmigrated as Cyndane.
**The drop in Lanfear's strength could also be attributed to interference by the Foxes or the Snakes rather than the vagaries of inhabiting a new body.**
Or that they boosted her before, and then they took it away.
**Since his rebirth he has not been seen to exert himself, and has restricted his channeling to the True Power.**
That's really not a new development. Ishamael used the TP extensively, just not singularly.
**The case of Ishy/Moridin provides little information. Before his untimely death he was the strongest of the Forsaken in the One Power (many sources), yet he was bested by Rand in direct confrontation (Rahvin, for example, came much closer to wasting Rand, and likely would have were it not for Nynaeve's intervention).**
Yes, it is possible to be the strongest of the Forsaken, and to be killed by Rand. After all, Rand killed Ishamael by stabbing Callandor through his chest -- not by the One Power.
**Lanfear/Cyndane, the body can affect the maximum, or her healing could have changed it.**
There is no way that Lanfear/Cyndane was Healed of stilling ;).
3
a dragonburned fool: 2005-05-04
I don't think that the quote about Osan'gar in the Forsaken tee party means that Osan'gar is weaker in the Power than Aginor. Rather the opposite - this quote is suggesting that as Aginor he was also considered to be not so worthy in his AoL past, when he was the second powerfull. The weakness of Aginor would be rather his lack of combat skills due to his unwillingness to develope such. Powerfull or not, if you are a poor combattant then a better combattant will have advantage against you even if he is weaker then you in Power.
But Cyndane's case is the best evidence agains the idea that Osan'gar or anybody of the recycled Forsaken except Cyndane could have a different level of strength. Demandred is thinking about Cyndane's identity, and earlier he had thought that she is Lanfear, but later Semirague counterargued that Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear, and Demandred agreed that because of that Cyndane is not Lanfear. Note: the change is the Power-level is the reason for all these Forsaken to disbelieve that Cyndane is Lanfear despite of all circumstancial hints about her identity as Lanfear. Actually there is no other argument against Cyndane being Lanfear. Demandred recognizes Osan'gar as Aginor, and Halima as Beltamel and Moridin as Ishamael without any problems - if any one of them changed his strength Demandred would have no reason to disbelieve Cyndane's identity. Therefore the Cyndane is the only one who changed the strength.
4
drz1649: 2005-05-04
OK, seems I was in the wrong with that. After reading that section it always seemed that Aginor was a 'weak Forsaken', though I suppose that wasn't due to his raw strength but rather his character.
How would Aginor have concealed his strength while masquerading as Dashiva though? I know men can conceal their strength simply by not drawing fully on it (whereas women need only be near another saidar channeler, active or not, to sense her strength, men can only evaluate each other by how much they actively hold - correct?)
But as Dashiva, Aginor fought in several battles (eg Dumai's Wells). Did he really exert such control over himself that, in combat, he never drew upon - and thus revealed - his true strength? Assuming that strength would out-strip the other Asha'man, which would seem reasonable - especially if it had been undiminished by his death.
5
JakOShadows: 2005-05-04
The difference in strength doesn't have anything to do with the bodies in this case. Only Lanfear/Cyndane has changed strength, as stated in a previous post. You got to remember that there are a lot of things that happened to Lanfear and not the others: Moraine ripped the angreal off her hand in the fight, she's being mindtrapped. Those two things can contribute heavily to your ability to channel, whether it's natural ability or a mental handicap. So saying that it's tied the body seems very unlikely. And plus, Balthamel as Aran'gel should be pretty limiting since he's in a woman's body, so the circumstances just don't coincide.
6
Callandor: 2005-05-04
**The difference in strength doesn't have anything to do with the bodies in this case. Only Lanfear/Cyndane has changed strength, as stated in a previous post. You got to remember that there are a lot of things that happened to Lanfear and not the others: Moraine ripped the angreal off her hand in the fight, she's being mindtrapped. Those two things can contribute heavily to your ability to channel, whether it's natural ability or a mental handicap. So saying that it's tied the body seems very unlikely. And plus, Balthamel as Aran'gel should be pretty limiting since he's in a woman's body, so the circumstances just don't coincide.**
1. Ripping an angreal out of your hands does absolutely nothing to your channeling ability, save it might still you, besides taking away what the angreal already gave you. If it stills you, there you go. The Forsaken simply do not know how to Heal stilling at that point (or presently), so Lanfear being stilled is out of the question.
2. The mindtrap does nothing to your channeling ability whatsoever. Moghedien would have definately made mention of that before/while being mindtrapped or in her POVs afterwards (also Cyndane too).
7
KaraK: 2005-05-07
i think it would be a mistake to assume that Lanfear's change in strength is nessecarily related to her death - after all in her POV she refers to it as haveing been stronger "before she was held" implying that it was that imprisonment that was the turning point, she doesn't think "before she died"
It is quite possible that her reduction in strength is a punishment from the DO (either directly or through moridin) for her attempt to rebel against the DO - after all she has not been massively weakend, it seems more like just enough to put her in her place so to speak.
8
JakOShadows: 2005-05-08
Callandor:
When I talked about a mental handicap in my post, I meant something of a punishment by the DO. And how that would be done is throught he mindtrap. Sorry about that miscommunication.
9
Aiel Finn: 2005-05-09
Dashiva does not need to hide his strength. Many of the AM are forsaken level in strength. Aginor was just a bit weaker than Rand anyway, so there is no problem.
Lanfear's loss of power may be because she was stilled when they went through the door, then she asked to be healed. The 'finns in a fit of their ususal irony, healed her as a woman would so Lanfear lost a lot of her former strength.
