hat the Hell is the One Power, Anyway?
by Hellebore: 2006-02-09 | 2.5 out of 10 (8 votes)
I'm a really big WoT fan and I’ve read and re-read the series like I'm sure you guys have, and I really have a lot of respect to you guys who make these theories and I appreciate the time and effort it makes to make these theories. (Based on this youngling’s first experience trying to make a theory =) Great series innit?
But the thing that has bothered me the most in the WoT series is actually the nature of the One Power itself and it's history in relation with humankind. If anyone has made a theory of this before me, I am truly sorry. This thought has been in my head for quite a while and it would be really cool if this could spark some comment, any comment from you guys.
I remember reading a theory somewhere about how man came to channel the one power (whoever it was, thank you for the inspiration), it stated that in the world of man, (possibly in the 7th age) there was a huge cataclysmic nuclear war which wiped out most of the population of the world which caused the 7th age to end. The resulting fallout caused some humans to evolve (or mutate) and sense the OP. With this theory I agree fully, though this theory lacks the thing that really, really interested me, which is *what* is the OP?
But, for this theory to be valid it would seem that the ability to sense and channel the OP would be a genetical trait. For this there seems to be overwhelming evidence to the pro. Examples include :
-The Trakand family. Morgase has the ability to sense and channel saidar to a very limited extent, her daughter, Elayne, no need to say anything right? And also, isn’t Moiraine Elayne’s distant aunt?
-There is also Vandene and Adelas
- Aviendha and her aunt Amys,
- There is ‘Dani and Dali, sisters who hardly needed a sul’dam’s direction’ (winter’s heart, what aveil hides).
-One other shining example is Talaan’s family, " My grandmother is Windfinder to the Wavemistress of Clan Rossaine, my great-grandmother is Windfinder to Clan Dacan, and her sister to Clan Takana…my sister was kept an apprentice five years longer than normal, and my cousin six!" (winter’s heart, ideas of importance.)
Sorry, but I couldn’t find any examples from male channelers, except for the Ayyad, and there is no concrete evidence for that, if I’m not mistaken.
So, it seems that channeling is a genetically passed trait. But, please correct me if I am wrong. Now on to the meat of my so-called theory.
Now let’s say that now we are in the 7th age of the WoT world, that means that the OP exists now but no one can sense it. So what is it and where? I’ve always fancied the OP was actually electricity, but that is probably too restricted, wouldn’t you agree? This idea was based solely on an Alviarin (I think, or another black ajah) PoV which said that she regretted not having the ‘lifts’ (or maybe elevators) that they used to have in the age of legends while she was climbing the many stories of Tar Valon. She knew about these ‘ lifts’ because she was told of them by Mesaana (was it her? Or another FS?) So maybe there was a Nuclear Holocaust but maybe a few lifts remained? But this didn’t answer the question that is the OP electricity? Most probably not, though.
So after I discarded the electricity idea I came up with something much more simple and universal. Could it be that the OP was energy? I’m talking about the universal energy that drives everything that there is in this world, e.g. the energy derived from the burning of fossil fuel, the energy of fusion, fission, etc. If I remember correctly, there is a thing called potential energy that is (if I’m not mistaken) just that, it’s potential, or say, stored energy. (Please anyone who understands physics clear this up for the rest of us. My theory is based on this half-remembered piece of high school physics. =) There for the harnessing if only we can find a mechanism to harness it. Like take the wind for example, it’s just a movement of air right? If the air is still it’s just potential energy, but when it moves it becomes energy. See, if we make a windmill we can use the movement of the air to drive the mill. Or like Moiraine’s example of a waterwheel, same thing right?
So, could it be that in man’s strive for survival at the end of the 7th age (or beginning of 1st), some men/women evolved (accelerated by the radiation from the nuclear fallout) into beings that could sense all the types of energy in this world and become ‘waterwheels’? Or maybe the ability to sense and channel the OP is actually innate in every human being, it’s just that during those harsh times people resorted to a lot of different things. This might explain the necessity of being in Ko’di/the oneness/the void to channel. Inasmuch that for one to be able to sense and channel the OP one must be one with ones surroundings. (too many ‘one’s I know, but it’s fun =)
This also explains the fact why the OP can never be used up. Energy can be transformed into different forms but the amount of energy cannot change. Like if we make a waterwheel electricity generator, the water that moves(kinetic energy) will be used to move the waterwheel which will store electricity(electrical energy) and the amount of energy ‘lost’ in the transfer will probably be heat (thermal energy) the sound (sound energy) and maybe some chemical reactions (chemical energy)
Another thing it might explain is the 5 different powers. If I remember correctly there are 8 forms of energy;
1. Radiant : The energy of electromagnetic waves.
2. Nuclear : The energy of the atom? (I forget about this)
3. Sound : The energy of compressed waves.
4. Electricity : The energy of, you guessed it, electricity.
5. Potential : The energy an object has because of it’s position and likelihood to move.
6. Chemical : the energy of chemical reactions.
7. Thermal : The energy of, you guessed it, heat.
8. Kinetic : The energy of moving objects.
Fire would certainly be thermal energy and maybe some chemical and nuclear energy, Wind could possibly be a mixture of kinetic, sound and potential, Water might be another mixture of kinetic, potential, and electricity, whereas earth is probably a mixture of kinetic, potential and thermal energies. This is pure conjecture from me, and I’m likely to be wrong. But the most interesting thing would be radiant energy as spirit. They say that our minds transmit electromagnetic waves, and we also give them off while sleeping so that would make sense, right?
The only thing (so far) that I can’t figure out yet is, assuming this theory were correct, why there would be saidar and saidin. Why would there be a difference between male and female channelers, the fact that the average male channeler would be more powerful(in the sense that they can wield more of the one power, just in sheer joules perhaps =) or why males would be stronger in fire and earth, whereas women in water and wind. ( Maybe because of the W. you know? Wind, Water, Women? HAH!!)
So, okay this theory has a few holes showing, but I think it’s a decent premise and shows a path to some interesting discussions. So please give me some feedback on what you think, tear it to shreds even.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2006-03-12
Welcome to Theoryland, Hellebore. I like the idea that men and women pull from separate forms of energy, which is what lends to their strengths and weaknesses and transforming that energy into specific classes of weaves...if that is what you were saying. I am not up to snuff scientifically speaking to discuss the science behind what you are suggesting. However, Jordan isn't bound to specific explanations of the One Power, and I don't know that he has answered any questions regarding what the One Power would translate to in our language today. I am sure you will get other comments, good luck.
2
haertchen: 2006-03-12
For starters, I'd like to establish that I'm a graduate student in physics at the University of Maryland, so I have some idea what I'm talking about.
The second thing I'd like to say is that "energy" is a tricky concept. Very few people outside of physics know what the "true" definition is, and let me tell you, it's a weird one when you push. The colloqial definitions, even the ones in introductory texts, are usually inadequate or even misleading. If I had to give a definition, I would say that "Energy is the thing that is conserved due to the symmetry of the laws of the universe versus against time reversal." Not very helpful, but we haven't found anything better.
The distinction between (say) kinetic energy and potential energy is not easy at a fundamental level, but for our purposes, most energy that isn't kinetic could probably be viewed as potential. All potential energies, on the other hand, are treated essentially the same way.
Lets go through the list of energy types:
1) Radiant energy: This is really just another form of kinetic energy, the kinetic energy of photons, meaning regular old light.
2) Nuclear: a form of potential energy, much like chemical energy.
3) Sound energy: the combined kinetic energy and potential energy of molecules in air as they compress and decompress.
4) Electical Energy: the kinetic energy of moving electrons along with the energy in the electric field produced by the electrons. This second energy is essentially a form of radiant energy, or the kinetic energy of photons.
5) Potential energy is a very general term. Usually means "Energy that isn't kinetic." Usually it means that if two things change position, they will gain in kinetic energy.
6) Chemical: A form of potential energy. Very similar to nuclear energy, just for different kinds of interactions. Basically, chemical reactions are just molecules going to lower potential energies which are available because the different types of molecules are now allowed to interact.
7) Thermal energy: The combined potential and kinetic energy of a system with a very large number of particles, where the particles have been allowed to collide and randomize. Not fundamental and usually directly seperable into kinetic and potential energies.
8) Kinetic: The only type of energy that's really distinct. The energy due to the motion of matter.
Given the above, I'd really have to say that I see no relationship between the five types of the one power and the types of energy in reality.
A better summary of what we think of as fundamental would be a study of the four forces we believe to exist in nature. It is there forces which result in the different kinds of potential energy. Kinetic energy is still just the energy of motion.
The four forces are:
1) Electromagnetic force. This force holds electrons to atomic nuclei and is behind electricity as well as chemical reactions. It is also the reason balloons stick to walls after you've rubbed them on your head.
2) Weak force. This force is so weak, it can barely be detected. It does lots of things, but nothing that is easy to explain or relate to.
3) Strong force: Keeps atomic nuclei together. The reason for nuclear reactions. Very, very strong but extremely short range.
4) Gravitational force. Keeps us on Earth, holds Earth together, keeps solar system together.
I'm afraid I don't see any obvious relationships between these forces and the True Source. I, personally, believe that RJ meant the True Source to be something extra that we have no direct experience with. I feel it's part of his theme of the changes that happen as the wheel turns, and trying to asociate it with anything we have will be a mistake.
Oh well. Good start, though.
3
Callandor: 2006-03-12
**I remember reading a theory somewhere about how man came to channel the one power (whoever it was, thank you for the inspiration), it stated that in the world of man, (possibly in the 7th age) there was a huge cataclysmic nuclear war which wiped out most of the population of the world which caused the 7th age to end. The resulting fallout caused some humans to evolve (or mutate) and sense the OP. With this theory I agree fully, though this theory lacks the thing that really, really interested me, which is *what* is the OP?**
It's interesting speculation all around, but the most likely thing to cause the One Power to not be able to be used is just that it's "turned off" in that particular Age and not in others:
**Week 13 Question: If a wolfbrother is reborn in another Age, will he be a wolfbrother again? In other words, is being a wolfbrother a trait related to the soul? Can women be wolfbrothers?
Robert Jordan Answers: Women certainly can be wolfbrothers, though the term would be wolfsisters. A wolfbrother or wolfsister reborn in another age would only be a wolfbrother or wolfsister again if that were possible in that Age. The ability to speak with wolves doesn't exist in every Age. In the "current" Age, it is a fairly new thing, appearing not too long ago. There are tales of it, sometimes just vague stories of people who supposedly "can talk to animals," without necessarily mentioning wolves, but remember that Elyas's ability was taken, at least by some Aes Sedai, as a sign that he was linked to the Shadow.**
You can say it extends to One Power access as well.
**So, it seems that channeling is a genetically passed trait. But, please correct me if I am wrong. Now on to the meat of my so-called theory.**
It's partially genetic, partially soul-based. You need the correct body (hence the genetics) to be open to channeling, and you need the right soul to actually channel.
**This also explains the fact why the OP can never be used up. Energy can be transformed into different forms but the amount of energy cannot change.**
Jordan has stated that the amount of the One Power is finite, but that it's use is constantly recycled.
**The only thing (so far) that I can’t figure out yet is, assuming this theory were correct, why there would be saidar and saidin. Why would there be a difference between male and female channelers, the fact that the average male channeler would be more powerful(in the sense that they can wield more of the one power, just in sheer joules perhaps =) or why males would be stronger in fire and earth, whereas women in water and wind. ( Maybe because of the W. you know? Wind, Water, Women? HAH!!)**
The reason is:
It's a fantasy series.
It's always a bad idea to take real-world parallels and put them to metaphyiscal constructs in a fantasy series. No one knows what the One Power really because it isn't anything else -- it's just the One Power.
4
Stilicho: 2006-03-13
Nice breakdown, Heartchen. I've always thought of One Power use as humanity's way of tapping into weak/strong nuclear forces or some heretofor undiscovered force (hey, we don't even know WHY gravity works, we can merely observe it at this point).
Still waiting on that unbified field theory too...maybe another Dirac will provide the breakthrough.
5
haertchen: 2006-03-13
I would also like to add unambiguously that I agree with Callandor on this issue. The One Power is something extra, not related to what we know about in the real world (unlike gun powder and stream engines, which have had cameo's in the series).
One reason for this is that we never see any side effects from OP usage. The weave effects the real world in a particular way, but we never see (for instance) that the nearby pond froze over when a channeler started the house on fire. If it was using the ambient energy, especially for some of the larger uses, we might expect something to happen. For instance, during the cleansing, the entire area should have been a frozen block of ice, if not the entire planet.
Of course, if we assume that we take energy from absolutely everywhere in the universe at the same time, then we get around this problem. But at this point we are so far into fantasy, there's probably no point in trying to make it fit any more. Especially given that the One Power goes back to the pool after it's finished being used. Energy wouldn't do that.
6
William Seeker: 2006-03-13
Energy. Power. The One Power.
Hey, it's not a bad theroey, and I'm inclined to agree at least in part. Ac opuple of things: One. In the series the charchters, paticularly Moiraine, talk about how the One Power turns the Wheel of Time. They say that it's the force that keeps time and the world going. So this is a power that is beyond Radient, Nuclear, Sound. Electricity, Potential, Chemical, Thermal, of Kinetic. This is the source of all that, it makes, and it gives it off. This is the stuff of which everything is woven. Two. This is a Fantasy, and therefore the same rules of physics don't have to apply. There can be different rules, or simply ones we don't know about.
But I think I read somewhere that RJ used to be a physist, so who knows how it works?
7
plink0025: 2006-03-14
i haven't heard anybody bring this up yet and maybe this is unrelated, but i seem to remember it being stated in early on, possibly in eotw, that the OP is somehow created by the wheel of time or at least is responsible for turning it. apparently the OP is like a big river turning the wheel and it splits off into saidin and saidar or something. does anybody know where thats stated?
in that sense, it seems to be the energy of the creator, possibly his lifeforce or whatever he used in creating randworld. this also kinda explains the DO's twisted version of the OP where he lets his favorite forsaken tap his power directly.
8
William Seeker: 2006-03-14
I believe in either book one or two, it says the power turns or is turned by the Wheel. As for being created . . .
9
minalth: 2006-03-15
Could people using the Choden Cal stop or slow time by using tons of the power and slowing the turning of the water wheel of time?
food for thought
10
Callandor: 2006-03-15
**i haven't heard anybody bring this up yet and maybe this is unrelated, but i seem to remember it being stated in early on, possibly in eotw, that the OP is somehow created by the wheel of time or at least is responsible for turning it. apparently the OP is like a big river turning the wheel and it splits off into saidin and saidar or something. does anybody know where thats stated? **
That was Moiraine in The Eye of the World:
**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 12 - Across the Taren
"The One Power," Moiraine was saying, "comes from the True Source, the driving force of Creation, the force the Creator made to turn the Wheel of Time." She put her hands together in front of her and pushed them against each other. "Saidin, the male half of the True Source, and saidar, the female half, work against each other and at the same time together to provide that force. Saidin" - she lifted one hand, then let it drop -"is fouled by the touch of the Dark One, like water with a thin slick of rancid oil floating on top. The water is still pure, but it cannot be touched without touching the foulness. Only saidar is still safe to be used." Egwene's back was to Rand. He could not see her face, but she was leaning forward eagerly.**
The Creator made the One Power, not the Wheel. The One Power drives the Wheel.
11
Traveller: 2006-03-16
I have to say that although this theory was pretty interesting, I have to agree with Callandor's first reply that it is just something Jordan created as fantasy- it is the One Power not some strange type of energy source that is possible in our world.
12
Callandor: 2006-03-18
**Could people using the Choden Cal stop or slow time by using tons of the power and slowing the turning of the water wheel of time?**
1. You use the One Power, it's recycled back to it's source.
2. The Choedan Kal doesn't consume all the One Power in one go. It's larger than what that brings in.
3. The working for and against saidin and saidar drives the Wheel. No matter how much One Power is present, just that there is some saidin and saidar working for and against each other can be enough to make time continue forward -- nothing says that it will change the rate of which time changes. Just that if there was none, time would stop. If there is some, it would still work at the same rate presumably.
13
The Librarian: 2006-03-29
Interesting.
Yes, this is fantasy so we cannot totally, if at at all trust the physics of our world, but that most certainly doesn't stop us from figuring out ways things work. It just gives us more freedom to do it! Here's what I think.
The Wheel of time works pretty much like an electric engine. It has two opposite, but similar forces on the sides, which make it roll. Of course the thing is more complicated than that, because OP isn't electricity nor do the saidar and saidin switch places.
But this gives a nice image of them working with ans agains each other.
Now according to this world theyries a simplied picture of the world is four dimensional. 3D+ time. In WoT the Wheel is required to keep the fourth dimension in constant movement. So the power which makes the Wheel roll, OP, affects every particle of this world. What is this world made of? Atoms? Or the Elements? Or tiny elephants? We don't know. The lements would explain the five streams. One for each basic element. Let's presume that for simplicity. So the world is formed of five elements. Fire, earth, air, water, spirit. And OP manipulates each element specifically as does time. Lot's of supposing there, but this would give us a basic structure of the workings of the OP.
Much inane rumbling there I hope some of the ideas are interesting. Note: I say nothing of this is. I only say it could.
14
Farzon: 2006-04-10
I seem to think of the One Power with a more mystical rather than a physical view. From what the characters and narration have said, it seems to me that the OP is the sum total of all the life/joys/triumphs in the Wheel, which stems from the Creator. The different portions of the one power can correspond to a very natural categorization of existence, as in, solid, liquid, gas, energy, and "consciousness". While the differences in saidar and saidin matching the stereotypical differences between men and women, with those breaking the stereotypes being stronger in the other flows (Nynaeve's "unladylike" temper and her weaving all 5 when she Heals). As the embodiment of life, overdrawing upon it would be analogous to gorging on Halloween candy. If it is the sum total of all the ages of the Wheel, this can also account for Foretellings. Foretellings would be "denser" bits of this source, and as the Wheel turns and channelers come across these bits, they catch a glimpse of the future, since the future is just the uber past.
Conversely, the taint would the sum total of all the death/pain/suffering of the Wheel, which is the domain of the Dark One. Madness caused by the taint could then be explained as a person's inability to cope with all that, like a concentrated post trauma stress driving people insane. This would suggest then that Darkfriend male channelers wouldn't go insane because they can deal with that suffering, yet the male Forsaken needs the Dark One's protection from it. The only way I can account for this is by thinking the male Forsaken are just too used to using the non tainted form. Taim on the other hand, who I think can be pretty much counted as a Darkfriend/Dreadlord (with what he said at the end of KoD), grew up with the taint and thus has been able to keep sane.
15
jonevri: 2006-05-11
There is something wrong with genetics being a component of channeling. This would mean Tear would have wiped out the ability some time ago. Also, and perhaps more importantly, Aran'gar still channeled saidin. If it had a genetic component then the reincarnation of Aginor would have had to channel saidar. Though, of course, there was a theory among the Browns that said that they (the Aes Sedai) were culling the ability to channel from mankind. I do not really buy this since Winter's Heart showed the rebel Aes Sedai finding a huge amount of new novices. Not to mention the channelers among the Sea Folk, the Aeil, the Seanchan, and the Sharans. I just do not buy the genetic component of channeling.
16
Callandor: 2006-05-12
**There is something wrong with genetics being a component of channeling. This would mean Tear would have wiped out the ability some time ago. Also, and perhaps more importantly, Aran'gar still channeled saidin.**
1. Well, Jordan saying that it's both genetics and soul make quite a difference in the matter.
2. The genetics aspect is ressessive, obviously, due to the very low percentage of channelers. People in Tear can keep having the genetics of it, yet not be channelers. Or, they can be channelers, it's just that they are learners (IE: a dramatically significant portion of male channelers, and female channelers). They'd still pass on the genetics, but they and others would never know they were channelers.
3. The idea is that the body simply makes the person "open" to channeling. What the person channels is dependant on their soul.
**If it had a genetic component then the reincarnation of Aginor would have had to channel saidar.**
Aran'gar is Balthamel; Osan'gar is Aginor.
**I do not really buy this since Winter's Heart showed the rebel Aes Sedai finding a huge amount of new novices. Not to mention the channelers among the Sea Folk, the Aeil, the Seanchan, and the Sharans. I just do not buy the genetic component of channeling.**
Well, start buying.
The ability has effectively been culled slightly, because in the Age of Legends there were 2-3% of channelers out of the population. Now, this is down to 1% or lower.
The White Tower finding lots and lots of novices is no different than the Black Tower finding lots and lots of male channelers. The key difference is in approach: the White Tower never actively sought out female channelers like they are now, and they were restrictive of who they would accept with the age limitations which they have removed now. They accept anyone and everyone, now, so of course their numbers would explode.
And the Sea Folk and others are case in point examples of why we know genetics is an issue:
**TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 11 - Ideas of Importance
"My novice training," Nynaeve said faintly. She wished the woman would not keep bringing up being hung by the ankles. "Yes. Well. You really don't want to hear about that." Four generations of women with the ability? Light! Even daughter following mother was rare enough. The Tower really would want Talaan. That was not going to happen, though. "I suppose Caire and Tebreille really love one another, too?" she said, trying to change the subject.**
If it wasn't based somewhat on genetics, channeling running in families would not occur in a planned manner. It'd be completely random whether a son, uncle, father, mother, etc. was able to channel and based completely on their soul. That is not what we see. It is at least partially genetic.
17
JakOShadows: 2006-05-13
Your idea is possible, that the WT just didn't search as hard as they could of. But it can be also argued that it is based on genetics and the soul. Let's look at the current situation. Male channelers have been greatly feared, as well as female channelers to a lesser degree. Given this, it possible that the ability to channel is based on the soul; but some bodies aren't naturally able to handle it, so it has to be learned. Hence the different between sparkers and learners. Given the fact that channeling is feared, people aren't as eager to learn as in the AoL. And this also allows for the fact that Cyndane channels saidin; because if it is in fact based on the soul, then the soul would still channel saidin even if it was in a woman's body. You'll find many differing opinions about this out there, but I just wanted to point that it was entirely possible for channeling to be dependent on genetics to some degree.
18
Puss in Boots: 2006-05-14
To clear up a few things:
1 as explained in the WoT reference book (The world of....) it states that channeling is a recessive genetic ability. This means that if both your parents are channellers you will definitely be a channeller. If both your parents are carriers of the gene then you will have a one in four chance of being a channeller etc.
It also states that 2 to 3 percent of the population are channellers (about one in forty people) which equates to about one in 6 or 7 being carriers.
Also remember that for the overwhelming majority of channellers the ability is latent and will never emerge without stimulus (ie. hidden unless they are taught). Also even for wilders, who teach themselves, many do not even realise they are channellers, leaving the genes in the pool.
This all explains how the rebels find so many girls and why it is very common to find channellers in the same family.
As for the true source itself, its best viewed as a kind of magical power (which it is). Also Yodas explanation of the Force in Star Wars seems equally valid. A life force present everywhere but can only be harnessed by those with the natural ability combined with the taught ability.
This magical power has the dual function of keeping time and the pattern ticking. It would be best not to try and relate them to any physical powers since the true source, by its very nature, defies physics.
19
Callandor: 2006-05-14
**And this also allows for the fact that Cyndane channels saidin; because if it is in fact based on the soul, then the soul would still channel saidin even if it was in a woman's body.**
Aran'gar channels saidin. Cyndane is a female channeler.
**You'll find many differing opinions about this out there, but I just wanted to point that it was entirely possible for channeling to be dependent on genetics to some degree.**
Not possible; we know it's at least partially based on channeling.
20
jonevri: 2006-05-16
I did not know RJ said channelling had a genetic component. My mistake. I also did not access to the source book. Sorry about the mix up with Osan'gar and Aran'gar. But either would serve the purpose of the arguement I was trying to make, even if it was flawed.
21
Chang: 2006-05-26
First, I would like to establish that haetchen, for a graduate student in physics, you have too much free time.
Second, I like what the Librarian said about wanting to know how things work in any world. Trying to see how everything fits together and is internally consistent makes reading it more fun. That's why we write these theories, isn't it? Why Tolkein is who everyone is compared too, because his work and associated myths of creation and action were so internally consistent (to anyone who read more than just The LOTR) that they were almost believable as our own history. Why what Farzon said about the mystical nature of good and evil was really cool, because it makes everything internally consistent (about where the power come's from and the taint etc.) but we still have to use our imagination...know what I mean. The nature of the Power gets me too, but hellebore's explanation of the nuclear/genetic bit was cool and make's sense. I always thought the wheel was a methaphor for a sphere enclosing the universe since everything is 3d. And the turning of it being the movement of all the objects within it according to the laws of physics (of that universe atleast) since time is relative to speed of motion and gravity...simply put that is.
Maybe the Power is the the ability to redirect the energy of molecules of particular types and make them act in particular ways, at an elemental level, which means people are essentially conduits for ambient energy and can make molecules of particular elements do what they require. Maybe, but at this point our own lack of knowledge about things like black holes, dark energy etc. as possible sources for the power becomes a problem. It seems we are like the characters in the books and have no definite knowledge of how it all works, we just have to accept on faith (it is their religion after all) that it does work...Just enjoy it.
I should say by the way that i'm a graduate in philosophy and history, so the internal consistency of anything is important to me. ,)
22
haertchen: 2006-05-28
***Second, I like what the Librarian said about wanting to know how things work in any world. Trying to see how everything fits together and is internally consistent makes reading it more fun. That's why we write these theories, isn't it? Why Tolkein is who everyone is compared too, because his work and associated myths of creation and action were so internally consistent (to anyone who read more than just The LOTR) that they were almost believable as our own history. ***
I'm not arguing with this. The reason I reject this theory is precisely because it doesn't fit well if we try to stick it into known, contemporary physics. The two (current physics and OP) can be self-consistent, but only if you assume the OP is outside our current physics.
***Why what Farzon said about the mystical nature of good and evil was really cool, because it makes everything internally consistent (about where the power come's from and the taint etc.) but we still have to use our imagination...know what I mean.***
No real argument here. I haven't studied it in real detail.
***The nature of the Power gets me too, but hellebore's explanation of the nuclear/genetic bit was cool and make's sense.***
Until you push the details. If it was a real form of energy, the cleansing should have destroyed the planet, frozen it solid, or turned it into iron or something. Using real physics makes real predictions, and they don't match what we see in the books.
***I always thought the wheel was a methaphor for a sphere enclosing the universe since everything is 3d. And the turning of it being the movement of all the objects within it according to the laws of physics (of that universe atleast) since time is relative to speed of motion and gravity...simply put that is.***
Fair enough, as far as it goes.
***Maybe the Power is the the ability to redirect the energy of molecules of particular types and make them act in particular ways, at an elemental level, which means people are essentially conduits for ambient energy and can make molecules of particular elements do what they require. Maybe, but at this point our own lack of knowledge about things like black holes, dark energy etc. as possible sources for the power becomes a problem. It seems we are like the characters in the books and have no definite knowledge of how it all works, we just have to accept on faith (it is their religion after all) that it does work...Just enjoy it.***
Well, I more or less argued that once you start proposing far-probability sci-fi explanation, we're in fantasy anyway. We might as well accept the True Power at face value: something mystical that keeps the universe running. Oh, and actually controlling molecules at a level required to heal somebody would be fantastically complex using our current understanding of physics. You just couldn't do it.
***I should say by the way that i'm a graduate in philosophy and history, so the internal consistency of anything is important to me. ,) ***
Consistency is good. But fitting it to the real world when it doesn't fit doesn't help consistency. Postulating modifications to our current laws or laws beyond those we know is probably a better start. I have no objections to those.
23
Chang: 2006-06-13
Haetchen...first I'm sorry for the unwarranted and unprecedented personal comment...it was in bad taste, as I realised later when i reread my reply, even though i initially meant it as a joke and I apologise...Coming back to it though, while i agree that the nature of the power must remain mystical and cannot be fitted into current laws, what i am proposing is precisely a modification to the laws in existence to allow for some power of this sort to exist...perhaps this entire argument becomes circular because of our lack of knowledge...However i don't like the idea of accepting the power at face value as something ,mystical and unknown that drives the universe...It makes the entire logic of the series untenable to my mind...here what you said about molecules comes to mind...
**Well, I more or less argued that once you start proposing far-probability sci-fi explanation, we're in fantasy anyway. We might as well accept the True Power at face value: something mystical that keeps the universe running. Oh, and actually controlling molecules at a level required to heal somebody would be fantastically complex using our current understanding of physics. You just couldn't do it.*
What i meant to say was that being able to do so would be a modification to our current understanding of how possible/impossible it is to do...that is the sort of thing which could be acceptable as a fantastic extension of our current understanding of the nature and interaction between humans and the OP...I nderstand that current physics makes real prediction, but modify the laws and the predictions change...or make new laws...well, the creator knows what the OP is...hate to accept it at face value but maybe there's no choice...farzons theory really is the best...Sorry again...
24
Wonderer: 2006-06-14
First of all, there is only One Power! Saidar and Saidin differences lie in the fundamental gender differences between men and women, just as men are naturally stronger physically but women have greater dexterity (similarities with their differences: raw power versus complex weavings). The result is vastly different uses of the same power, so different in fact a user of one cannot even see the other. However, they can interact with each other since they are the same thing. Angreal only work for one side or another because a man cannot channel like a woman any more than a fish can fly like a bird. I can only wonder what a hermaphroditic Aes Sedai would be capable of.
I daresay the five elements Aes Sedai classify the power into are merely a primitive understanding of a more complex power. Each can no doubt be broken down again and again and who knows, perhaps there is an indivisible quantity of power that is totally without elemental bias.
This power is entirely mystical, in fact I assert that the one power is the Creator. We say God they say Creator, same omnipotent thingy. I has been repeated ad nauseam that the OP drives the Wheel of Time and will continue to do so as long as it exists. Translation, life goes on as long as God wills it. The power is good if the way it feels is any indication. The selfish human desire to take more than one should is little more than greed and not an imperfection. The logical question is, “Why can those sworn to the Dark One channel if it is the Creator’s Power?†Black Ajah and Forsaken for example. Well, if this Creator is anything like our God, it is because humans are created free to do with the Power as they will. The reason only some people have the ability to channel at all is because though it is a great gift, it is also a great burden. I have trouble seeing this ability as genetic anymore than being the Dragon Reborn is genetic. I cannot recall the Seanchan daname being bred like animals for the talent. Sul’dam seem equally unlikely to procreate copiously. Based on the Seanchan’s intensive screening process for finding those who can channel or be taught to channel, it’s doubtful there are many wilders breeding in secret.
All acts of the One Power are creative in nature or merely manipulation or already existing matter (remember that creation can be a terrible and devastating process) with one notable exception . . . balefire. Yes, the thorn in my theory’s side. How could the Creator’s power be used to utterly unmake something, to totally remove it from the Wheel? My first thought was it was the Dark One having a little influence, but that doesn’t really play out. I have finally decided it is actually a reverse of normal channeling. Rather than adding energy to the target it draws it away. Its comparison to lightning sparked this idea. Lightning actually starts on the ground but moves to fast to be seen, so what appears as a too bright bar of energy hurtling toward a destination actually originated there. So, in effect, the act of creation is not unmade, but undone, hence the temporal side effects.
Now, on to the Dark One. If I remember correctly the pre-Chosen (Forsaken) thought they had found a great source of power that men and women could both draw on (another One Power lets say). Conceivably this power would be diametrically opposed to the OP but could still be used toward good ends. When they bore a hole to this power the Dark One was nearly unleashed and the male ability was tainted. This taint doesn’t actually contaminate the pure power, only places a coat of poison between it and potential male channelers. I contend that the taint in fact lies on men themselves and only with the Dark One’s protection can a man safely channel through that dark miasma.
If I recall the World of Dreams touches all worlds, parallel universes where any outcome of any event is possible, but the Dark One has not been victorious in any of them or else he would be victorious is all of them (though the world through the portal stone seemed a bit desolate). In essences, the fate of the world is a coin toss, heads the Creator wins and tales the Creator wins. I suppose the Dark One is waiting for the coin to land on its edge. The Dark One is not really evil, destruction is merely in its nature. People who choose to swear themselves to him (forgive the sexist language) are evil, and fools besides. Should he ever be released, his Destructive Power added to the Creative One Power would cancel each other out like matter and anti-matter, along with the big boom (my apologies to the physics graduate student for the reducing of occurrence to a metaphor). This duality is not the cliche good v. evil or order v. chaos (though they both play a part) but more Creation versus Destruction. Light v. Dark applies to all of the above of course. I realize this teeters dangerously close to the driving philosophy behind Terry Goodkind’s Sword of Truth series, but the are alike in so many ways, what’s one more.
25
JakOShadows: 2006-06-14
I just got to thinking that right now we are using are current physics laws to try and explain this. But right now, physicists are playing with the idea of the string theory and finding a universal equation for the current physics laws. It could be that RJ was postulating on what could be possible, and that there is no scientific explanation for it currently. That it is just an idea of how things could work, an interesting explanation so to speak. Even then, I don't think that RJ was focusing too much on the scientific aspect on the one power, but how it related to time and changing of the ages.
26
robertcroome: 2006-06-20
When electricity is talked about your not nessercarily wrong. Electricity is talked about alot in randland even if they dont realise it. The combonation of Fire and Earth. These are of course the male aes sedai strongest powers but this is irrelevent. When Elayne and Avienda are going through the Ter'angreal they have found Elayne thinks how many Ter'angreal need Eart hand Fire and Avienda uses earth and fire to use the book man:
27
Anubis: 2006-08-02
**First of all, there is only One Power! Saidar and Saidin differences lie in the fundamental gender differences between men and women, just as men are naturally stronger physically but women have greater dexterity (similarities with their differences: raw power versus complex weavings).**
Yes, the only difference between saidin and saidar is the gender of the person using it. They are not seperate at all. Which is why when saidin was tainted, saidar was also.... oh wait.
Dammit Tam, the newbs got in.
28
ashandari: 2006-08-05
hi im a new person on theoryland and im just spitballin. But you know when the charecters enter ko'di and they seize the source they always say about how all the colors are more vibrant and every thing. well i thik that it may be a way to sense potential energy and then when they use the source they are using potential energy again.
29
thomas: 2006-08-30
I liken the One Power to the life force of nature, like the ancient druids were supposedly able to channel. Life is a cylce and engery is always recycled. In nature, also there are males and females of plant and animal species. Perhaps that is where the idea for a male and female half come from. Chanelling the power instead of evoking or invoking, is what makes me think of the "druid" aspect of it, the power is always there, but we are not all able to sense or use it.
