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aim killed Asmodean

by Sodas: 2003-04-12 | 5 out of 10 (4 votes)

Previous Categories: Who Killed Asmodean

WARNING: If you believe Taim is Demandred, then I suggest you turn back now, because you will never understand this theory.

Preface

The greatest mystery in WoT, who killed Asmodean, is always up speculation. In the following paper, I would like to sum up my stance. Hopefully, this will sway some readers to rethink the issue. As Aristotle once said, "Discourse is the mark of intelligence."

The Obvious

RJ states that the murder should be intuitively obvious to a casual observer, so I believe I will state the case with the obvious first and formost. What do we know that is obvious?

At the begining of every chapter, there is a symbol that represents to a degree what goes on inside that chapter. For the death scene chapter, we get the Wheel of Time symbol. No forsaken or fain symbol. This is not a definate answer, simply a clue that niether a forsaken or Fain were involved.

Someone once pointed out to me a very important fact that I missed before. Forsaken don't kill Forsaken. Sure, they are always jumpy when they are around each other, but this is all held in check by the fear of the DO. The question though is, what is Asmodean? After he becomes severed from the DO, is he a Forsaken still? The general answer I get is that no, he isn't. In fact, through his PoV's, he shows no thoughts towards rejoining the DO, just that he still considers the DO the great lord. Does the DO still consider Asmo a forsaken? A casual observer would note that the DO doesn't seem to care wiether or not Asmo died ( LoC : Prologue ). Words like traitor are never mentioned. This is probably because Asmodean is not a traitor of his own free will. He is forced to teach Rand by Lanfear. Whose the real traitor in this case? Lanfear. I believe this combined with her plan to work with Rand to supplant the DO and Creator landed her in the Mind Trap. I do believe that the DO sending out a hit on Asmo is out of the case. This leaves the case of a Forsaken seeing that Asmo needed to be removed because it threatened to make Rand stronger. One problem with that though. The Darkhounds sent by Rahvin in FoH only checked to make sure Asmo was with Rand, not to kill him. This shows that at least one Forsaken didn't want to kill Asmo.

The Road

Mazrim has been long theorized to be at least a darkfriend. 15 years with the power and he doesn't show signs of madness. Adding to this case is the fact that he was freed by the black ajah and the seal he picked up. After he was freed, he fled to Caemlyn followed closely by Bashere. Why did Mazrim go to Caemlyn? I think the obvious answer is Rahvin. Later on, Mazrim takes on characteristics of a Forsaken, so much so that he has been able to fool most of the readers of WoT that he is Demandred. I disagree with the Taimadred theory, and instead point to his time with Rahvin. If Taim isn't Demandred, there where else would he pick up phrases like "So called Aiel." I doubt thats a common term in Saldea. All this points to Mazrim being in Caemlyn before the attack on it by Rand's forces. Another piece of evidence to support that Mazrim was in the Palace itself and a pupil of Rahvin, was the fact that Bashere was not allowed into the palace to talk with Rahvin. That fact points directly to Mazrim hiding inside the Caemlyn palace to aviod capture by Bashere.

Another important aspect leading up to the murder was the fact that Lanfear was the one that reported that Asmodean had betrayed the Dark. Although, to believe Lanfear at her word would be foolish. In fact, most Forsaken simply know that Asmodean is dead, and don't show any emotion either way. So the fact that they could believe Asmodean betrayed them is very weak. Adding to this is the fact that most of the Forsaken knew of Lanfear's affinity for LTT, and I would guess most of them would feel like Lanfear was the most likely candidate to betray the Dark. In fact, that is exactly what happened.

The Pantry

After the attack by Rand's forces, Mazrim would have to flee Caemlyn, because he would be associated with Rahvin for sure if captured within the palace. An interesting side note from a book on castles in the middle ages, is that pantries are usually connected to servant passages to cellars or hidden escape routs. Its very convient that Asmo was looking for the pantry when he stumbled upon someone that would want to kill him. Here we find the biggest clue about who killed Asmo... the death statement. "You? No!" Most people who have analyzed this statement have come up with the basic conclussion that he recognized his killer. Also, the fact that he didn't try to defend himself, and the "You?" points to another conclussion ... that Asmo did not expect to be killed. He as a chosen would have no idea that he was about to get killed. Any intelligent observer would notice that if Asmo bumped into someone that Asmo was afraid of, then the first thing he would probably do is run in the other direction.

Why would Mazrim be recognized by Asmo? Because, duh, he's a false dragon and a darkfriend. In fact, for as long as Mazrim could have been a darkfriend, I'd bet my first 2 cents on the fact that he was at the darkfriend social in the prologue of TGH. A few have theorized that because he could travel, he was the one that took the darkfriends there. Ishy probably couldn't have, because he would have revealed himself to soon to his audience. Also, the fact that he got to hide out with Rhavin would suggest he would be all up to date on current events in the Forsaken's world. This all points to the fact that Mazrim himself, would have recognized Asmo. So Mazrim didn't expect Asmo to be there and Asmo didn't expect Mazrim to be there. Mazrim otherwise, would have been inconvient to Rand. Asmo needed to be taken out if Mazrim was to assume the position of M'hael of the BT, and Rand's right hand man.

The Creator

Before I use this bit of argueing, I would like to state that reports from the field have not always been acurate. In fact, I hate using this because it can only cause problems.

I asked about Asmodean again. He said that yes, we should be able to figure it out the instant he died. He said that he thinks it's obvious now and we should definitely be able to figure it out by the end of [TPOD].-- A. Bergman, report from NYC book signing, 20 October 1998.

Well, can we figured it out the instant Taim died?

Taim was in Caemlyn, as shown by Bashere's statements. He is probably a dreadlord, and would have been able to kill Asmodean. He would then probably have to escape, due to fear of Rand killing him and ran into Taim.

Is it obvious now at the end of TPOD?

Taim has gained the most since Asmo's demise. He is the M'hael, and been trying to kill off Rand. Not to mention the fact that he bossed Dashiva around, and orders the assasination of Rand. Taim can no longer be considered remotely non-dark.

Taim wants to be Rahvin?

When Taimadred died, all the proof that Demandred was Taim died. What happened to LTT's rambling about wanting to kill Demandred whenever Taim was around? Or when MT killed the Gray Man? Or his comments on the Aiel? Or the 15 years he has been channeling with touch of the Taint? Or how quickly he learned to create a gateway, and in fact, knew what it was called? Or how he knew how to do many things Rand couldn't? Or his comprehensive knowledge of the old tongue for a Randlander? So what does all this mean?

That Taim learned from some other Forsaken! And who better than the person he spent with much of FoH, Rahvin. It is my belief, that Taim wants to become a Forsaken, and so he is learning. As we have seen, alot of the BT was a front for allowing MT to put together a dreadlord army. Taim, if he is a dreadlord, is definately moving up among the chosen, simply because it seems he has the most success so far out of all the Forsaken.

Chaos and beyond

Alot of people of people have claimed that Taim is Demandred. When you look at this theory, it seems to break down alot in WH. After the theory was debunked, all the evidence from Taim being Demandred was thrown out. No one wants to touch it. The fact that LTT wants to kill Taim doesn't strike you as strange? I believe that LTT can smell that fact that Taim is very dangerous. If LTT thinks Taim is dangerous, its not far to imagine him being the one that knocked out Asmo. In fact, its downright obvious to me that Taim was the culprit.
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Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 2003-04-17

I responded on the board...as I said before, this idea has merit. I have always believed that Taim is this Ages Demandred. It is obvious he is evil, and I don't see that happening after him meeting with Rand. He didn't wait long, and he was always disdainful of his position.

2

Rand-althor: 2003-04-17

I agree with this idea being possable. I still believe it was Grendal, because most of the evendence could be coincidence, but here's a thought for you, What if Taim is really just what he says he is. I'm still not sure how to explain 15 sane years without the DO's help, but what if he is just a power hungry fool. He believes that if Rand is killed, he will be the most powerful person, being in control of allmost all male channelers in Randland and that because of that, people will hail that he MUST be the dragon because Rand can't have been if he is dead. Not that I can really believe that Taim would do all that work, instead of waiting for the DO to do it for him, or that i can belive that Taim was stubborn enough to hold madness off for 15 years, but it is always best to look at something from all angles, even the ones you dont agree with.

3

Callandor: 2003-04-17

The pure way Taim acts and with his knowledge its next to impossible for him to just know these things without some training, and the only other male channelers besides Rand are the Forsaken.

As for this theory, I dont believe it honestly, but it is possible.

However if I remember Taim was on his way to Caemlyn till LOC when he finally arrives to Rand. Now why would Taim just WALK to Caemlyn if he could Travel? If he is still going around thinking that he is the DR or whatever, him Travelling to Caemlyn just makes more sense then walking.

I still think its Lanfear.

4

Jiana: 2003-04-18

It could be Lanfear. It could be Moiraine. It could be Graendal. Light, it could be anybody! It's still not obvious to me. The theory makes sense, though, and is possible, and what makes me say so is this: Asmodean's famous last words, "You? NO!" could be because he was bested by someone he didn't expect... an "untrained puppy," as the Asha'man and Aes Sedai are often reffered to by the Forsaken. We have no evidence from Taim's PoV that he DID walk to Caemlyn. Not long ago, I had toyed with the idea that Taim isn't who he says he is (who he would be is beyond me), because NO ONE KNOWS WHERE TAIM WAS OR WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM between the time that he escaped the Reds and the time he showed up in front of Rand. I have no doubt that he is a darkfriend, and could possibly be dreadlord or Forsaken in training. If he were, though, Forsaken that is, seems that Moridin would have mentioned it somewhere.... But then we don't write the books do we? :)

5

Rand alThor15: 2003-04-18

Callandor, Taim didn't know how to Travel until Rand showed him while taking him to the new "Farm", to show him where to train the Asha'man-to-be.

6

Callandor: 2003-04-18

Thats exactly my point Rand. Taim couldn't channel till Rand taught him. But Sodas says: **In fact, for as long as Mazrim could have been a darkfriend, I'd bet my first 2 cents on the fact that he was at the darkfriend social in the prologue of TGH. A few have theorized that because he could travel, he was the one that took the darkfriends there.**

7

Anubis: 2003-04-18

what do you mean, taim couldnt channel till rand taught him? Thats wrong. Taim was channeling and razing hell, and also he picked up the weave for traveling suspiciously quick.

8

Callandor: 2003-04-19

That was my fault i meant Travel. Sorry for brain fart.

9

Callandor: 2003-04-20

**Forsaken don't kill Forsaken. Sure, they are always jumpy when they are around each other, but this is all held in check by the fear of the DO.**

Thats DEAD wrong. If that were true then there would be about 40-50 AOL Aes Sedai Forsaken since the original 13 Forsaken killed off the weaker ones, the DO WANTS the strongest to survive, he just wont hinder them himself (IE: stilling someone just so another will kill them, however he might if they went too far out of line but that hasnt been seen yet).

We have this in TFOH when Sammael calls upon the **whittling of hte dead wood** from the Forsaken numbers. They want to be Nae blis and they will ALL vie for it and that means killing each other.

10

TheNetweaver: 2003-04-20

I think this is a good theory, but your quote from the field just disproves your theory. We wouldn't be able to figure it out as Taim the moment Asmo is killed, because Taim isn't around until the next book. He has even less significance than Logain at that point.

11

Dorindha: 2003-04-21

What is it that RJ has actually said about it? Was it that we had enough info to work it out at the end of TFOH, or that we had already heard of the killer?

12

melchizedek: 2003-04-27

No, Lews Therin Telamon killed Asmodean. I reread the series to see who it seemed like probably killed him, to see if it was obvious. I decided to look especially to see if anyone is called Death... and then it WAS as obvious as RJ claims. He outright tells us that Lews Therin is "Death" a couple times in that book (and at least once in the next)! He has Lews Therin try to take over Rand a few times, and talk about killing Forsaken. Rand ends the book drinking wine with Bashere... and has too much to drink. He starts to go down to get more wine. As he does so... he loses it. For about 5 minutes, Lews Therin takes over. He realizes he has enough time to kill 1 Forsaken... who is closest? At that moment, Asmodean wanders right into the wine cellar where he is pondering. And Lews Therin smotes him. Asmodean sees Rand, but recognizes the look in his eyes as Lews Therin. And responds... "No... YOU!"

13

Anubis: 2003-04-27

ummmm. no. i dont think we have lews therin capable of taking over rand, and if he could, y would he give back controll. also lews knows what rand did, y yould rand not know what lews had done?

14

Sodas: 2003-05-21

To Callandor - What I ment in context, was that Taim could Skim. All he needed to know was the destination (SG) and he was set.

Also, we know for a fact that Forsaken don't DIRECTLY kill each other. Yes, they do try to kill each other via other methods, but we have yet to see one to kill another just for the reason of becoming Nae'blis. When Lanfear Traveled to see Rahvin the first time, Rahvin did not blast her expecting an attack. He restrained himself, knowing it was Lanfear. Once again we see that the Forsaken see that they have a common enemy ... LTT/Rand ... but that Nae'blis comes from earning the DO's trust, and having bad thing happen to those around you. Besides, we have no reason to believe that any Forsaken had killed any of the previous Chosen directly. Sammael says that you need to trim dead wood, not that he had done it before.

To TheNetweaver: Time and time again have we come to the conclussion that RJ has said only one thing about Asmo. RAFO. All the other quotes are speculative and open to interpretation. So when we read the series, it is not a question of "wiether or not Taim was important" ... it is wiether or not Taim murdered Asmo. It is that same stubborn, think inside the box thinking that had killed the Asmo debate in the first place.

15

Callandor: 2003-05-21

If the Forsaken didnt have the guts to live up to the words they give to others about being carefully or treading lightly, then they are all a bunch of sissies and I highly doubt thats the situation. The DO wants the strongest to live, to rule, the weak will die. Who else would really take out the Forsaken besides the Forsaken and Rand (possibly a few others like Nynaeve and Egwene and Avi and Elayne)?

16

Amazona: 2003-05-30

I'm just going to throw this in there and it's very possible that I'm way out in left field. I was reading the discussion and I got me thinking about who would be able to scare Asmodean. I agree that seeing Taim might frighten him abit but there is no saying that Taim would even know that Asmodean was sheilded and only a fool would directly confront a Forsaken unless sure of victory. Beside, would not Rand sense any man channeling that close to him? As for who else could scare him. There are some passages in tFoH where he is decribing the other Forsaken and he says that "Semirhage could make a boulder beg for mercy". I could be wrong though because he did die quick, but it could be possible that she did it.

17

Callandor: 2003-05-30

Asmodean also had a bunch of dreams in which Lanfear was doing nasty things to him from the way she tells Rand about them.