he real question is: Who is Death?
by melchizedek137: 2003-04-28 | Not yet rated
One of the greatest mysteries of the Wheel of Time series has long been "Who Killed Asmodean?" One of the reasons for the great mystery is that Robert Jordan has made it clear that HE believes it is fairly obvious who killed Asmodean, in the context of the series around the time of "Fires of Heaven." With this in mind, I decided to really read *Fires of Heaven* and *Lord of Chaos* again and see what textual evidence I could find for any specific killer... or more properly, what textual evidence I could find for Robert Jordan calling someone Death pre-Moridin. I was a little surprised at first, but the more I think about it, the more sense it makes to me.
The following are the textual witnesses that led me to my current theory of "who is Death" in the *Fires of Heaven* and *Lord of Chaos*." After the quotations, I will outline in depth the theory I have developed based on these texts.
*Fires of Heaven*, CHAPTER: 52 - Choices:
"Agony in his chest, as if his heart was about to explode, in his head, white-hot nails driving into his brain, pain so strong that inside the Void he wanted to scream. DEATH WAS THERE (emphasis added), and he knew it. Frantically-even in the Void, frantic; emptiness shimmered, dwindled-he wove Spirit and Fire and Earth, flailing it wildly."
CHAPTER: 54 - To Caemlyn:
"Rand barely noticed them. “Rahvin,” he said. Or someone did. HE WAS NOT SURE WHO. (emphasis added) Sending fire and lightning ahead of him, he stepped through and let the gateway close behind him. HE WAS DEATH. (emphasis added)"
CHAPTER: 55 - The Threads Burn:
"Rand nodded coldly. It had limits, then. There were always limits and rules, and he did not know them here. But he knew the Power, as much as Asmodean had taught him and he had taught himself, and saidin was still in him, all the sweetness of life, all the corruption of death. Rahvin had to have seen him to attack. With the Power you had to see something to affect it, or know exactly where it was in relation to you down to a hair. Perhaps it was different here, but he did not think so. He almost wished Lews Therin had not gone silent again. The man might know this place and its rules."
CHAPTER: 56 - Glowing Embers
“I have read The Karaethon Cycle,” Bashere said. Putting the goblets under his arm for a moment, he broke the wax seal on the jar and filled them with WINE (emphasis added)... Rand swirled the goblet, staring down into the dark red WINE (emphasis added). Sammael in Illian, and other Forsaken the Light alone knew where...
ASMODEAN...
He pulled open a small door, intending to find his way to the pantry. There should be some decent WINE (emphasis added). One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face. “You? No!” The word still hung in the air when death took him."
*LORD OF CHAOS*, CHAPTER: 17 - The Wheel of a Life:
"Death rides on my shoulder, Lews Therin muttered. Death walks in my footsteps. I AM DEATH. (emphasis added) Shuddering, Rand set his goblet on the table. How much did the Prophecies demand in all those tantalizing hints and grandly roundabout verses?"
MY THEORY: Lews Therin Telamon is Death, at least in the context of Fires of Heaven and the Lord of Chaos. He killed Asmodean.
1. Lews Therin Telamon plainly says that HE IS DEATH in *Lord of Chaos*. I believe this is Jordan's way of identifying who the Death that took Asmodean was.
2. Many times, Lews Therin wants to kill Forsaken. Men who can channel are an incredible danger in his view. He is often trying to overtake Rand in order to do this.
3. Rand is drinking wine with Bashere. I believe it is safe to assume he went down to the cellar to get more... and while he was there, had just one more drink. And it was enough that he lost control and Lews Therin Telamon gained it.
4. For a brief moment, Lews Therin is in control. He has time to think: I WANT TO KILL FORSAKEN. KILL THEM ALL... ESPECIALLY MALE FORSAKEN... MALE CHANNELERS (as he consistently demands they do in later books).
5. As luck would have it, a male channeler and Forsaken wanders right into where he is. From the look on his face, Asmodean realizes that Lews Therin has taken over... He recognizes the mannerisms on the man... and he is shocked... "You! No..." And Lews Therin does what he is obsessed with doing... He kills Asmodean right then and there.
6. Rand often wonders what happened to Asmodean afterwards, but not Lews Therin. He will think "Kill Demandred! Kill Sammael" but not "Kill Asmodean." I submit that the reason is that he knows something Rand does not... They've already killed Asmodean.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2003-05-06
The two points that suggest you are wrong are RJ's quotes concerning the word "death" and Asmodean's surprise of "You!". First, RJ has answered, since many thought that Moridin had killed Asmodean since his name means Death, following the same type of scenario you are painting. RJ has denied that he was trying to be symbolic and that it simply meant that Asmodean was killed. Asmodean's reaction should have been something like, "Oh, hey Rand, what are you doing here?" It is very unlikely that Rand would have taken Lews "look" since that is a T'A'R thing. So, why would Asmodean have said, "You?" versus, "Hey Rand."
2
Wolfblade: 2003-05-06
But then again it is possible when Lew Therin took over he used a MOM to look like himself again. Therefore, justifying the "You". I am not saying I support this theory I still need to contemplate the further points. But I thought I would add so insight.
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melchizedek137: 2003-05-06
Asmodean says "You!" precisely because he has some uncertainty about who is driving Rand, and yet it is Rand upon who he has pinned his hopes. Through out the entire book Fires of Heaven there are glimmers of Lews Therin coming through Rand in the presence of Asmodean. Rand will suddenly make a comment about something Sammael did in the AoL, and Asmodean's eyes will grow wide. Asmodean is very aware that Lews Therin is in there, but it is Rand he is allied with because it is Rand who needs him. It is Rand he has allied himself with against the DO for the future, and he knows Rand will not kill him.
And that is the supreme irony, the ultimate horror and regret contained with the "You? No!," because Lews Therin Telamon is only too willing to kill him at the first opportunity. Lews Therin believes in killing male channelers, especially Forsaken, and has no need of a teacher. Lews Therin knows Asmodean, Asmodean knows Lews Therin, and that personal knowledge allows recognition beyond the bodies they wear. Asmodean looks at Rand al'Thor in the winecellar, but the mannerisms are those of Lews Therin Telamon, and he recognizes them even as he stares at the body of the man he has been teaching. And he knows exactly what Lews Therin will do if he is in control for even a moment of Rand's drunken stupor.
It doesn't make sense for anyone else to bother killing Asmodean. The good guys don't know about him, and even if they did, he wouldn't know them to be afraid and scream "You? No!" And many of them probably wouldn't kill him for helping Rand al'Thor learn new skills.
And the bad guys? Torture seems more likely than easy death, but it was death that took him. The fact is that RJ seems to think he made it clear who killed Asmodean, and if that is true, I think it has to be Lews Therin. No one else seems even remotely clear as a candidate.
4
Korell: 2003-05-06
I think i had read a theory saying that LTT took over and killed asmo but it was not this detailed..besides Graendal did it. And the proof is in the wording of an interview.
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Mathwin: 2003-05-06
I like it but I don't agree...if LTT could take over Rand once, then why have we not seen this later on? Wouldn't Rand have noticed something fishy was going on--like, suddenly he's standing one place, then suddenly another. Plus, LTT wouldn't have killed Asmodean discreetly and stuffed him through a portal--he probably would have blown up half the palace nuking Asmo. And what is the Dragon Reborn doing fetching his own wine?
Even if he had only taken over Rand for a split second so that Rand wouldn't notice any change, he would be standing right on top of where several weaves had just been made. It seems unlikely that any male channeler (except Ishy) could have done that without Rand noticing.
6
Rand-althor: 2003-05-06
I agree, Asmo would not have said "You?" in surprise if it was Rand, after all, he knows Rand is in the palace so wouldn't be surprised to find him there. Also couldn't Lews Therin just realise that 1) Asmo has as close to returned to the light as he ever will, and 2) Asmo may as well not be a channeler with the shield Lanfear put on him, os maybe Lews just started to see him as just a normal guy now. Also, a question, if Rand was drinking with Bashere, then why would he go down and get himself another? More likely he wouldn't have any more, or if he wanted more he would have sent a servant.
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Callandor: 2003-05-06
Its actually kinda funny because RJ was saying in a interview if he could limit down the possible killers of Asmo... he said that he wouldnt... and then said he would... he said it couldnt be Rand.
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Shadowstalker: 2003-05-07
I agree with Tamyrlin's remarks.
Asmodean was clearly surprised to see his killer, and frightened. Though he feared Rand, he rarely showed it to his face. He certainly wouldn't have expected Rand to come in and kill him. Rand needed him too much. So he wouldn't have been so afraid of just Rand's appearance.
So he was frightened, yes, but also shocked. He didn't expect that person to be there. Who would be the person he LEAST expected to be around? Lanny. She was dead, or with the 'Finn, right? He definately WOULDN'T have expected her.
So how did she get there? Well, by this stage, we didn't know about women Traveling. Who's to say Lanny couldn't have Traveled out of Finnland? It's not been tried.
These are my thoughts. If I have any events wrong, I apologise. It's been a long time since I read tLoC.
9
Wolfblade: 2003-05-07
It is possible that when LTT took over Rand that he used a MOM to look like his formerself therefore, justifying the "You". I am not yet completely in favor this theory but thought I would offer so insight.
10
Rand-althor: 2003-05-07
Also, if LTT had taken over Rand, why would he give possetion of the body back? I am of the opinion that when LTT takes Rand's body, its LTT, and not Rand anymore. And Rand himself said if LTT took over for even a munite, it would be LTT walking and Rand as a voice inside his head.
11
Dorindha: 2003-05-08
The only thing you've got to link Rand with it location-wise is the wine thing (I think Rand was actually on a balcony overlooking the courtyard at the time) but what everyone forgets is that it wasn't a wine pantry that Asmodean entered (there's a chance it might be, but I think it's quite small) he was on his way to look for a wine pantry and just opened a random small door which he though might lead to somewhere he could get wine.
I also think it is more likely to be someone else for various reasons, but these have mostly been addressed already.
12
Korell: 2003-05-08
Dorinda is right if i remember right he was just opening a door in search of a wine pantry it does not say if that i where it led to...also as to the Lanfear traveling out of Finnland i think that is very unlikley not impossable but unlikly why would she port herself out of finnland just to kill asmo? i mean it does not make alot of sense to me although hells fire is a like a woman scroned so ya know lol anyway i am a firm Grendahl beliver.
13
Mairashda: 2003-05-09
two points:
1) didn't robert jordan state somewhere that you could puzzle out the murderer using evidence from the books up to FoH?
2)LTT's neglecting to mention Asmodean in his ramblings might be due to the fact that as opposed to Demandred and Sammael there was nothing personal between him and Asmodean. And there is also the matter of Lanfears shield.
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Callandor: 2003-05-09
1. RJ has said that the only killer who for sure didnt do it, was Rand. Since LTT is in Rands head, he didnt do it either.
2. Yes, RJ has said that a person, who he thinks with moderate intelligence, can figure out who killed Asmodean as of TFOH.
3. If you still dont believe that LTT couldnt kill Asmodean, he DEFINATLY wouldnt give control back to Rand if he ever took control. It has been stated by Rand many times, that if LTT ever even grasps saidin he will take control of Rand and Rand would be a little voice in LTTs head in Rands own body. LTT didnt do it.
15
Rand-althor: 2003-05-20
Using your logic, it as as likely it was Rahvin as it is rand. After all, when Rand is battling Rhavin, and Nyneve makes the firestorm aroung him, he turns and it says "DEATH was there for them." so according to the only "proof" you have, it was Rhavin as well.
Other disproofs
1)Jordan has specifically said, Death means Death. Not someone who thinks he is death, and not moridin, but it just means that Asmo died.
2) LTT has never taken over before, and all we know of that rand drank was a small amount of wine, not enough for him to be drunk enough for LTT to take over.
3)Rand would send servants down to get wine, not go himself.
4) it is at this time that he is drinking wine with Bashere, as the scene changes just as Rand beging to talk to him. Rand cannot be in 2 places at once.
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silverwolf: 2003-06-14
Even if Lanfear managed to get out of Finnland long enough to kill Asmodean, she wouldn't. She would have killed either Rand or Aviendha, like she was trying to at the end of TFoH. This is demonstrated again at the end of WH when she hopes to be the one to kill Rand for not choosing her ("Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned..."). NO matter what, Asmodean would not have been her first target. Lanfear did NOT kill Asmodean.
17
Callandor: 2003-06-15
Lanfear could be the killer due to accidental encounter with Asmodean due to Rands ta veren effect. So she isnt cancelled out at all.
