1
Tamyrlin: 2003-07-30
Jordan has commented that the DO could not transmigrate Asmodean even if he wanted to. This means one of two things. Either Rand's cutting of his cords prevents the DO from bringing him back, or Asmodean was balefired. However, balefire on its own would discount the return. The idea that Asmodean was killed with the TP does make sense, considering no one could have felt it, and Asmodean's remains could have been dealt with efficiently.
2
juitzhead: 2003-07-30
Korell, there's really not much to add to this topic as it has been done to death.
having said that, the strenght of the balefire weave can be controlled, so its does not necessaraly mean that you will have a hole in the wall. (see the darkhounds killed in rhuidean).
also, asmo was cutoff from the DO. Now, there is some new evidence which tells us that the black chord that Rand cut does two things:
1. protects from the taint
2. allows the forsaken to draw on the TP.
This to me means that the you have to be attached to the DO to draw the OP, and by deduction, means that this is the method in which he is able to transmigrate the dead. This would cover the statment that the DO would not be able to bring back Asmo if he wanted to.
The other possibility is balefire. Which means that it was a forsaken using the TP since the OP wasnt sensed.
3
Korell: 2003-07-30
Tam
i had not heard RJ had said that about him not being able to bring Asmo back even if he had wanted to which would certainly indicate he may have been Balefired however if the theories out there that state that you have to be linked with the DO to be brought back (which everyone who has been transmigrated has been) then that would be valid as well. Though the use of the TP would certainly lend a certain amount of concealment that other forms of channling would not. some comments in the books insinuate that perhaps Mordin is not the only one allowed to use the TP but that he is the only one with unlimited acces to it so perhaps someone used it on him though inverting weaves would be just as effective
4
Lewin: 2003-07-30
Juitzhead wrote:
"This to me means that the you have to be attached to the DO to draw the OP, and by deduction, means that this is the method in which he is able to transmigrate the dead. This would cover the statment that the DO would not be able to bring back Asmo if he wanted to."
Just wondered if your really meant OP and not TP? If not you suggest all able to channel is connected to DO?
5
A Wild One: 2003-07-30
Korell says, "...it (BF) unravles the thread of the person who has it used on them and they cannot be saved by the DO however they will eventually be respun into the pattern."
Well according to the Creator, anyone killed by balefire is permanently dead, never to be spun out again. (REF: sound clip #2, http://www.dragonmount.com/Interviews/2003-04-23.php)
As for balefire always leaving a path of destruction - FALSE. Rand uses a very narrow and controlled balefire to kill the Draghkar attacking Aviendha during the attack at Jangai Pass. Reread and take note of how limited but complete the destruction caused by that use of balefire.
And as for Lanfear being Asmodean killer, I think not, because she had just entered the land of the Finns.
6
Weird Harold: 2003-07-31
Wild One said, "Well according to the Creator, anyone killed by balefire is permanently dead, never to be spun out again."
That's not quite true. He said a FORSAKEN who was balefired killed by Balefire was gone for good. The Forsaken aren't just "anyone."
One other point: Balefire itself is apparently detectable by any channeler, whether they can detect the power used to create it or not.
e.g. Moiraine detected Rand using Balefire in Rhuidean on the DHs.
7
silverwolf: 2003-07-31
Moiraine saw him use it from a distance. Not everyone can feel any type of balefire being used (I think that most channelers can feel the residues of it, though).
8
juitzhead: 2003-07-31
"Just wondered if your really meant OP and not TP?"
yes i did
WH, you bring up an interesting point. There are other instances where a female channeler has been detected using the balefire weave, all moiraine.
" “Now,” Moiraine said as his arrow left the bow. The air between her hands caught fire and streaked toward the Darkhounds, vanquishing night. The horses squealed and leaped against being held.
Perrin threw an arm across his eyes to shield them from a white-hot glare like burning, heat like a forge cracking open; sudden noon flared in the darkness, and was gone. When he uncovered his eyes, spots flickered across his vision, and the faint, fading image of that line of fire. Where the Darkhounds had been was nothing but night-covered ground and the soft rain; the only shadows that moved were cast by clouds crossing the moon.
I thought she'd throw fire at them, or call lightning, but this . . . . “What was that?” he asked hoarsely. Moiraine was peering off toward Illian again, as if she could see through all those miles of darkness.
“Perhaps he did not see,” she said, almost to herself. “It is far, and if he was not watching, perhaps he did not notice.”
“Who?” Zarine demanded. “Sammael?” Her voice shook a little. “You said he was in Illian. How could he see anything here? What did you do?”
“Something forbidden,” Moiraine said coolly. “Forbidden by vows almost as strong as the Three Oaths.” She took Aldieb's reins from the girl, and patted the mare's neck, calming her. “Something not used in nearly two thousand years. Something I might be stilled just for knowing.” " - TDR, Ch44, Hunted
Even Be'lal gave a start at the command in that woman's voice. The Forsaken stepped back out of the arc of Rand's sword and turned his head to frown at Moiraine as she came striding through the battle, her eyes fixed on him, ignoring the screaming deaths around her.
“I thought you were neatly out of the way, woman. No matter. You are only an annoyance. A stinging fly. A biteme. I will cage you with the others, and teach you to serve the Shadow with your puny powers,” he finished with a contemptuous laugh, and raised his free hand.
Moiraine had not stopped or slowed while he spoke. She was no more than thirty paces from him when he moved his hand, and she raised both of hers as well.
There was an instant of surprise on the Forsaken's face, and he had time to scream “No!” Then a bar of white fire hotter than the sun shot from the Aes Sedai's hands, a glaring rod that banished all shadows. Before it, Be'lal became a shape of shimmering motes, specks dancing in the light for less than a heartbeat, flecks consumed before HIS CRY FADED." –TDR Ch55, What is written in Prophecy
“ “You? No!” The word still hung in the air when death took him. – tFoH, Ch56, Glowing Embers
what also interested me is the similar way's in which Asmo and Be'lal died. They both screamed out “No!” as if both knew what was happening to them, with their cries hanging in the air. To me, along with the quotes, are able to recognize a balefire weave, even if is woven by a woman.
Secondly,
“Suddenly he realized that he had not felt saidin when the man made balefire, either. Just thinking of that, of the two streams touching, made his vision double again. Just for an instant, he could see the man's face again, sharp where everything else blurred. He shook his head until it cleared. "Who in the Light are you?" he whispered. And after a moment, "What in the Light are you?" “ – aCoS, Ch41, A Crown of Swords
“The watcher followed and listened. They had no idea. The True Power, drawn directly from the Great Lord, could neither be seen nor detected except by who wielded it.” – ACOS, Ch20, Patterns within Patterns
Rand did not feel Moridin/Wanderer make the balefire weave in TP. Moridin/watcher states that no one can detect the TP except by those who wield it.
So in conclusion,
Asmo died by balefire. He recognized the weave, hence the “No!” cry. It was not detected by any of the channelers since the TP cannot be detected by non-TP channelers. There were no around.
Wether it was Moridin or another forsaken is yet to be seen but I think that this was the way in which he died.
9
Min Farshaw: 2003-08-02
I'm new to TheoryLand, but I saw this theory and couldn't help but reply.
The whole reason balefire isn't in good conscience used (all that much) is because of the damage it does to the Pattern, right? It erases the person it is used on - burns them out of the Pattern. They cease to exist before the moment of destruction.... leaving behind only memories of deeds no longer done. Which means, theorectically, that Asmodean; should he have been balefired, was burned out of existance.... so wouldn't all that he taught to Rand become nonexistant? He'd certainly remember that Asmodean had done so... but would he know what he knew from Asmodean pre-balefire?
10
Shadow Bane: 2003-08-02
Also does any one else think that the ghosts walking around might be from Rand balefiring one to many forskaen.They could be people killed along time ago that wouldn't have been killed, but already died which couldn't be reversed because they had already accessed the soul pool, possibly even been reborn.
11
Callandor: 2003-08-02
No, Asmodean's teachings would not be taken away if he was balefired. The power of a weave that could do that would probably have to be using every single angreal and sa'angreal in the world. Rand is the most powerful channeler alive, and with an angreal, he only balefired back Ravhin about an hour. Asmodean was with Rand for weeks.
12
juitzhead: 2003-08-02
Min, the time that you erase out of the thread depends on the strenght of the weave. You can balefire someone a few days back or just a few seconds back. you would have to use Chaoden Kal power to erase all that Asmo taught Rand.
13
Rand-althor: 2003-08-02
A few things to say.
1) I always thought that a Channeller could sense balefire used by another channeller because Saidin and Saidar turn the wheel, so erasing part of a thread from the wheel would logically create a small area of "riples" in the OP.
2) Asmodeans teaching remains in Rand's memory because of 2 things. one, the teaching was not a phisical thing, it is just Rand's memories of what Asmo said, meaning it stays with Rand. And seccond, Asmo hadn't been teaching Rand since at least the night before. Rand's massive BF stream in TAR against Rahvin only erased about 30 mins, so the size of balefire to erase Asmo from when he started teaching Rand is at least needing Callandor, or even the Chaddon Kal.
14
Anubis: 2003-08-02
balefire leaves a residue that is detectable by all chanelers. i dont remember where i got this from but i know its somewhere... i dont know about true power balefire, but i bet that would leave an identical residue.
15
Rhodric: 2003-08-03
Callandor:
** No, Asmodean's teachings would not be taken away if he was balefired. The power of a weave that could do that would probably have to be using every single angreal and sa'angreal in the world. Rand is the most powerful channeler alive, and with an angreal, he only balefired back Ravhin about an hour. Asmodean was with Rand for weeks. **
besides all that, the memories of what the person did before being balefired remains. so Rand would remember all of Asmo's handy hints even if asmo was balefired back to his re-awakening.
16
Flinn: 2003-08-04
I think that shadowbane may be on to something when he talks about the ghosts, but anyway, if asmo was balefired, it was very much, otherwise everyone would have some fuzzy memories. But why balefire? There are plenty of other ways to kill a guy. I think that balefire is the big guns, what you use for total and complete annilation. You use it to undo things a person has done, not just to simply kill someone. I don't think balefire was asmo's demise.
17
juitzhead: 2003-08-04
Anubis said:
“balefire leaves a residue that is detectable by all chanelers. i dont remember where i got this from but i know its somewhere... i dont know about true power balefire, but i bet that would leave an identical residue.”
Quote:
“Tension drained from her visibly. She stepped closer to look up at him. "What you used to kill the Darkhounds is called balefire. I can still sense the residue of it here." He could, too, like the fading smell remaining after a pie was carried out of the room, or the memory of something just snatched out of sight. "Since before the Breaking of the World, the use of balefire has' been forbidden. The White Tower forbids us even to learn it. In the War of Power, the Forsaken and the Shadowsworn themselves used it only reluctantly." – tFoH, Ch6, Gateways
yes, you can sense the residue or perhaps even the weave as it is made. Perhaps you can feel the making of the weave or see it, hence the “No!” screams by Be'lal and Asmo. But TP balefire does not leave a residue or can you sense it, you can still see it though. If you read a few replies back, you will see a quote from Rand where he did not feel anything when Moridin did the TP balefire.
Flinn Said: “But why balefire? There are plenty of other ways to kill a guy. I think that balefire is the big guns, what you use for total and complete annilation. You use it to undo things a person has done, not just to simply kill someone. I don't think balefire was asmo's demise.”
The reason balefire is suspected comes from a couple of things.
1. the manner of his death is the same as that of Be'lal. Read the post I made above for the quotes.
2. I would not have been sensed anyway by any of the channelers
3. Asmo was a traitor, as believed by the DO. Why bring him back or kill him conventionally when you can totally annihilate him.
Also, for anyone who will bring the ‘obvious' test up, this is to explain the manner of his death, not who killed him. The method is derived from all the books and the ‘intuitively obviousness' test does not apply since it is to do with the killer, not the method.
RJ left enough clues for the method so we could tie it in with the killer. I don't think it would be his style to leave clues pointing to the killer.
18
Great Lord of the Dark: 2003-08-08
2 questions:
1. (For Korell) What better things should Moridin have been doing other than killing Asmodean?
2. (for everyone) Erasing Asmodean's actions may make Rand realize that Asmo did not run away but was killed with balefire. Unless a small, controlled stream was used. The residue sensed is not from the weave but from the damage to the pattern, whether OP or TP was used. So using balefire leaves an unmistakable signature that A) Asmodean is dead and B) that balefire was used to kill him. I'm starting to think that is riskier than what was desired by killing Asmo.
19
Anubis: 2003-08-09
i always took rands saying he felt nothing to indicate that it was true power being channeld. i never took it to mean that he did not sense residue from the balefire, i just never thought the residue was worth mentioning.
20
Korell: 2003-09-30
Great Lord of the dark
For one he was most likly very busy with being recycled since we dont meet mordin until after the fact....but really personaly if i am Mordin i am getting control of other Forsaken not worrying about Asmo he can be dealt with later besides wich i am sure Mordin knew that Rand had already been taught alot so i mean there is no real point to killing Asmo when he gets killed Asmo was killed as a matter of convinience right place right time
21
Aelfinn: 2003-12-19
***That's not quite true. He said a FORSAKEN who was balefired killed by Balefire was gone for good. The Forsaken aren't just "anyone." ***
Well, that's what you get for trusting the DO. :) But the question is, is Asmo still counted as a Forsaken?
22
MellonCollie: 2007-04-17
I know this is a really old theory, but anyway. Asmo's words still hung in the air when death took him, right? And if he was BF'd, him saying those words (that word? I don't remember exactly what he said) would have been BF'd away "retroactively", wouldn't it? I.e. he never said it. So his word(s) couldn't hang in the air if he was BF'd, hence, he wasn't. That's my theory.
23
Catalyst: 2007-04-20
Let us call Horatio Caine from CSI:Miami and let him investigate. From Asmodean's last words "You? NO!" we understand that he had known the killer. He knew the other Forsaken. We don't know whether he knew Rand's bad uncle, and we don't know whether he had seen any of the gholam. A pity that Jordan's world is not real and the One Power accessable that we could have a look at the crime scene. Until then rock.
