1
Tamyrlin: 2003-08-01
Let's see, Shaidar Haran. He would fit the criteria of Jordan helping people out by formally introducing us to Asmodean's killer up to the Path of Daggers, but why wouldn't Shaidar Haran bring Asmodean back to the DO? Moghedien is invited back and mindtrapped, after she has betrayed the DO, Asmodean could have been captured and mindtrapped just as easily. He would be of good use, since he has been privy to all of Rand's conversations. He knows Rand's plans, his friends, etc. Asmodean would know how to hurt Rand, information other Forsaken can only get through informants. Also, at the point Asmodean is killed, we do not know of Shaidar Haran, and we have no reason to believe that Asmodean has met up with him, since every other Forsaken, including Demandred, are unaware of Shaidar Haran until after Asmodean's death. The shadow idea works for you, but how would Shaidar Haran have arrived in the Palace in the first place, if he was traveling by Shadow, and how would he have departed, since it was in the middle of the day?
2
Callandor: 2003-08-01
One word kills: Obviousness. It fails utterly with Shaidar Haran.
3
Shadow Bane: 2003-08-01
also even though i beleive that shaidy can channel TP i grudgingly admit it has never been stated that a mydraal has the ability to channel
4
ranman38: 2003-08-01
I posted this belief somewhere already as a reply, but...as you say the DO knew about this and treated it as a simple matter of a forsaken failing. Seems to me, Shadar Haran is the DO's policeman, so to speak, and rounds up and otherwise punishes the failures. But, as someone said, RJ said it should be intuitively obvious, and I have to say, since we didn't know SH then, it seems to dwindle in likelihood.
5
Jiana: 2003-08-01
Not saying I believe this one, though it was pieced together well enough. In answer to Tam's question, how would Shaidar Haran have arrived and departed, as it was the middle of the day? Well, back in Whitebridge when the Myrddraal was to attack Rand, Mat, and Thom, it was the middle of the day as well. There are shadows in daylight.
6
moridin68: 2003-08-01
I think this is an interesting idea as well. Actually, it's the best argument that I've heard yet for any possible killer of Asmodean.
It's possible to have shadows, even during the middle of the day. Especially since the murder of Asmodean took place in a pantry while he was looking from some wine. Great theory !
7
Rand-althor: 2003-08-01
RJ said Asmo's killer should be obvious by the time he is killed, so it has to be somebody we have met, and know their name, or else it wouldn't be obvious.
8
Rhuark: 2003-08-04
Thanks for the criticism!!
Just a few points:
Tam:
"why wouldn't Shaidar Haran bring Asmodean back to the DO? Moghedien is invited back and mindtrapped, after she has betrayed the DO, Asmodean could have been captured and mindtrapped just as easily. He would be of good use, since he has been privy to all of Rand's conversations. He knows Rand's plans, his friends, etc. Asmodean would know how to hurt Rand, information other Forsaken can only get through informants."
Thats true that Asmo could have been of great use to the DO but the way the DO states to Demandred that any who betray him shall die the final death suggests to me that the DO is using Asmodeans death as an example to any other Forsaken who are even considering switching sides like Asmo.
Also Moghedien didnt betray the DO in the same way Asmo did. Asmo didnt even try to escape Rand and go back to the shadow. He stated himself that he was throwing his lot in with Rand (sorry dont have quotes dont have the books with me. Will try and find it later). On the other hand Moghedien was forced into helping Nyneave and Elayne through the A'dam bracelet. Therefore she gets another chance while Asmo is made an example of.
Next
Tam
"Also, at the point Asmodean is killed, we do not know of Shaidar Haran, and we have no reason to believe that Asmodean has met up with him, since every other Forsaken, including Demandred, are unaware of Shaidar Haran until after Asmodean's death."
I think its possible that Asmo met SH before his demise. SH revealed himself to a Darkfriend nearly 3 books before the first Forsaken (Demandred) supposedly meets him. Do we even have POV's from all the Forsaken saying they hadnt met SH? I just think we cant rule out the fact that Asmo may have met SH.
Another question:
Does RJ actually say that the killer is obvious from the moment you read the passage where Asmo is killed or that its obvious by the next book?
I think the fact that we are introduced (on a first name basis) with SH for the first time in the first section of the next book and are given a comment about Asmo dyeing by the DO himself makes it obvious to me. Well more obvious that Lanfear wasting a wish and coming back from Finnland and killing him or Graendel hanging out in a pantry waiting for him.
9
Callandor: 2003-08-05
Umm... No. SH is introduced in LoC, not TDR. If he was, I think it would be a little obvious since he is almost twice the size of a man.
Also, Moggy was mindtrapped because she did good by accident; Asmo, as you said, didnt do anything. Moggy wasn't doing anything till she was freed.
**TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: 25 - Mindtrap
To her shock, he laughed. "You misapprehend, Moghedien. You still serve the Great Lord, but not quite as you once did. The time for playing your own games has passed. If you had not managed to do some good by accident, you would be dead now."**
So it's not simply that Moggy went to SG that she was given another chance.
And yes, RJ has said, flat out, that you should be able to find out who killed Asmodean RIGHT when he dies.
10
juitzhead: 2003-08-05
Rhuark said: "I think its possible that Asmo met SH before his demise. SH revealed himself to a Darkfriend nearly 3 books before the first Forsaken (Demandred) supposedly meets him. Do we even have POV's from all the Forsaken saying they hadnt met SH? I just think we cant rule out the fact that Asmo may have met SH."
the Myr you are talking about is seen in TDR Epilogue with Carridin. The Myr does some similarities to SH, like smiling and amusement, but the physical description does not match that of SH.
Either it is a discrepancy on RJ's part, or SH has yet to grow.
"It was a man in form, no larger than most, but there the resemblance ended. Dead black clothes and cloak, hardly seeming to stir as it moved, made its maggot-white skin appear ever paler. And it had no eyes.
That eyeless gaze filled Carridin with fear, as it had filled thousands before." TDR - Prologue
"Every Myrddraal was the height of a tall man, a sinuous imitation of a man, as alike as though cast in one mold. This one stood head and shoulders taller." - LOC, Prologue
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Rhuark: 2003-08-05
Callandor did you even read this part of my theory?
'In the prologue for TDR Jaichim Carridin encounters a Myrddraal in his chambers in the Fortress of Light. But it isn't any ordinary Myrddraal. It has a sense of humor. This is highlighted by the following quotes:
'The Halfman's bloodless lips quirked in a smile' (TDR pg28) and 'The Myddraal laughed, a sound that made Carridin's bones shiver' (TDR pg28).
SH is the only Myrddraal to display any sense of humor whatsoever according to Osan'gar who thinks to himself (LoC pg 71):
'Osan'gar would have thought the Myrddraal's bloodless lips twitched in a smile, except that was impossible, here or anywhere. Even Trollocs had a sense of humor, if a vile and violent one, but not a Myrddraal.
Therefore the Myrddraal in Carridin's chambers MUST have been SH. '
This to me is concrete evidence that SH has been around since TDR. Unless your suggesting RJ has made a mistake?
Could anyone give me a link to this interview where RJ states that it is obvious from the moment you read the passage? I've had a bit of a look around but havent read all his interviews.
12
Callandor: 2003-08-06
**I asked about Asmodean again. He said that yes, we should be able to figure it out the instant he died. He said that he thinks it's obvious now and we should definitely be able to figure it out by the end of [TPOD].-- A. Bergman, report from NYC book signing, 20 October 1998.**
No its not SH.
13
Mairashda: 2003-08-06
yes, it seems that shaidar haran has been around for quite some time. but prior to his formal introduction in LoC nobody knew that there was a "superfade"- so he fails the obviousness test once again.
oh, and... it may always be that a myrddraals lack of a sense of humor had not yet been formally estabilished when carridin had his encounter- read: error.
14
juitzhead: 2003-08-06
Rhuark, here's the transcript
Question from Vercingetorix: Why do you think everyone has a hard time figuring out who killed Asmodean? Graendal killed him.
Robert Jordan: I don't know why people have a hard time figuring that out. To me it seems intuitively obvious even to the most casual observer. The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much. It's probably bad for me.
and NO, he wasn't saying that Granny killed him, he was answering the question.
So no, "Oh so, Graendal killed him" posts.
as far as the smiling Myr, i'll put it in my "Questions to Ask RJ" list.
15
Rhodric: 2003-08-07
the answer to that question is ambiguous. it could mean that he is confirming Graendal is the one, or it could mean "haha i'm not telling". the latter was my first thought.
i was already a Graendalite before i had read the interview (some time ago now) and that question didn't really tell me one way or the other.
so graendal killed him. but not cos of the quote it's just too stinking obvious IMO. are there any "grndl killed asmo" theories on this site?
16
Callandor: 2003-08-07
Why the heck would he say Graendal killed Asmodean, and then say I wont tell people who killed Asmodean? He's replyin to the first question: Why do people have so much trouble figuring it out.
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juitzhead: 2003-08-07
Rhodric said:
"are there any "grndl killed asmo" theories on this site? "
plenty. start by looking in the archived section.
18
Rhuark: 2003-08-07
Thanks for the quotes Callandor & Juitzhead.
I guess I'm willing to admit defeat on the point of it being obvious from the instant Asmo dies.
I think it might be a case of RJ being a bit of an arrogant dick though cos how many people had the killer pop into their head the moment they read the passage?
Of course its obvious to him.
Anyways I'm currently up to LoC in my third re-read so I'm gonna pay extra attention up to PoD and come back with some more comments...
19
Jeff237: 2003-08-09
Your right about the "arrogant" part. It's like those college professors that can't understand why you can't grasp something in one day that they've been teaching 20 years. I like your theory. Everything else; SFW
20
Rhodric: 2003-08-11
thanks juitzhead for the info, but the grndl killed asmo theories (at least the ones i saw) are rather... primitive.
considering i took it as an extremely obvious fact that grndl (now i'm not so sure), and considering that the SH or Moridin killing Asmo theories have mountains of research thrown into them, i'm surprised that there weren't any well-developed "grndl did it theories"...
21
Callandor: 2003-08-12
That's the thing, nobody can really give any good evidence for Graendal. They just say its her for what she says to Sammael in LoC, but we should know the killer right away when Asmo dies in TFOH, so there technically can be her, but there is no way with all the quotes from TEOTW to TFOH, regarding Graendal (which is 28! Thats it! First one is in TSR!), that you could possibly point to her and say she did it.
Lanfear all the way! :)
22
rubbernilly: 2003-08-12
RJ can't say who killed asmodean and keep some semblance of dignity. Think about it. The worth of writing is inextricably tied into the accessibility and understandability of it as it is wrapped into an artistic fare. If any of these things fails, the writing is inferior.
Which is not to say that therefore Shakespeare is inferior because many people find it inaccessible, for example. First, Shakes was writing for people of his generation when his was the language of the day, and second, those people who find Shakes inaccessible are also people who are not giving it any sort of effort.
On the other hand, concerning the death of Asmodean, RJ is also writing for his present generation of readers... and there has been a TON of research and effort put into cracking the events. Therefore the writing is inaccessible in this instance.
So, as far as RJ is concerned, what can he say other than, "It should be obvious to the casual observer"? In effect he is maintaining the accessibility - and thereby the quality - of what he wrote. Anything less, including an overt admission of who the killer truly is would be a tacit allowance that such an admission was truly necessary in the first place, and therefore send the message that what he wrote was lacking. He has no other option now other than to continue holding this inane easter egg hunt out in front of us like a carrot drawing us foreward.
He apparently fails to realize that his saying that the passage should be accessible and the actual accessibility of said passage are two separate things; that he can't raise the quality of what he has written by continuing this farce... though he tries.
He tries.
23
Rhuark: 2003-08-21
Hey peoples..
I've got some quotes here from some above postings that I need explained (Which I'm sure Callandor will help me out with :)because together they dont make much sense ..
First off:
Tamyrlin
'Let's see, Shaidar Haran. He would fit the criteria of Jordan helping people out by formally introducing us to Asmodean's killer up to the Path of Daggers'
And
Callandor
**I asked about Asmodean again. He said that yes, we should be able to figure it out the instant he died. He said that he thinks it's obvious now and we should definitely be able to figure it out by the end of [TPOD].-- A. Bergman, report from NYC book signing, 20 October 1998.**
Right.. Why would we need to be formally introduced to the character up to the Path of Daggers if it is supposed to be so obvious the moment Asmo is killed??..
Also.. I'm not prepared to take A. Bergmans word that RJ said that. I dont think it should be considered hard evidence unless its in the books or comes directly from RJ's mouth.
I could just say I went to a book signing and then go on the net saying "RJ said Asmo's killer was in the LOC prologue".
All the people who think SH killed him would beleive me and all the people repping Lanfear would say bullsh*t you lie!
Its not hard evidence IMO.
But at the end of the day I agree with the above post..I think RJ is just talking sh*t regarding Asmo to piss us all off and to cover up the fact he didnt write it well enough to make it provable beyond doubt.
