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t was Taim
by Rbrunke: 2003-10-01 | 3 out of 10 (2 votes)
Previous Categories: Who Killed Asmodean
It was not Lanfear, she was just killed, and even if she came back, it would not be this quickly. Remember, Jordan said the clues are all there to figure it out, and that was just not in the cards then. Same goes for Moraine.
It was not a wise one... they were not there.
It was not an Aiel or any one else who could not channel, as he had time to speak, therefore time to channel, and even a weakened Asmodean could save himself from a knife stroke. Besides, the "You" indicates he knows the person, and a faceless Aiel does not make sense.
Of those he knew, it was not Matt or Avienda, as we knew they were elsewhere.
So, who is left?
Well, the forsaken.
Of those, just before he is killed we have a scene with Rand learning that Taim is somewhere nearby from Bashere... a nice hint about an available killer. We also know Taim can channel, obviously.
This gives us our first hint that Taim is the killer, and one of the forsaken, who would be motivated to stop Rand's training.
I would also hazard a guess that only a chosen could do it as Rand would have sensed the use of the Saidar or Saidin, but not the one source of the dark one...
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2003-10-06
Amazingly, Asmodean still provides furtile ground for theory making. Taim is not a forsaken, but he could be a "new" forsaken, that much I will give you. The test that Taim fails is the recognition test. We are given no indication that Asmodean is aware of Taim's existence. Most agree that Asmodean recognized his killer, so I would like to know how you handle that part of the equation?
Mairashda: 2003-10-06
(sighing exhaustedly):ok, so bashere is fairly sure that taim is somewhere in andor, but I doubt that he would have left his men camped up in braem wood and come to rand asking for help if he knew that taim was anywhere near caemlyn. the first time we get to see taim in caemlyn (which is incidentally his first appearance) is in the first chapter of book 6. before that we know that there is a powerful male channeler named taim, that bashere is hunting him and that he might have slipped into andor. thats not enough to seriously consider him as asmodeans murderer.
Therilon: 2003-10-06
I shouldn't really be replying to this, seeing as I am a member of Apathy for Asmodean, but still...
It's a pretty good idea to eliminate who it is not, but it sort of falls apart as you go along.
You want the killer to be Taim, so the patterns of reasoning follow so you get Taim as the killer.
As Tam mentioned, Taim fails the recognition test, although Asmo *could* have recognized Taim through some sort of DF Social. Unfortunatly, even at that level, there are flaws. We have no real solid proof that Taim is a DF or a Chosen.
The reasoning for channeling seems interesting. Remember that Asmo is startled, he thinks he is going to be safe, he opens a door, and then, someone that he had not expected to see attacks him, killing him. If a man with a knife was fast enough, he could probably kill Asmo, without him being able to channel in defence.
Going on with that topic, why would a faceless Aiel want to kill Asmo? They know him as a gleeman, a harper. A faceless Aiel fails the motive test, as do most non-channeling characters.
However, if a non-channeling DF under Lanfear's control is Compelled to attack Asmo, that might be a possibility. If the killer was compelled, however, the real killer is a forsaken/channeler.
"Of those, just before he is killed we have a scene with Rand learning that Taim is somewhere nearby from Bashere... a nice hint about an available killer. We also know Taim can channel, obviously."
What about the other forsaken, Rbrunke?
Can you eliminate Graendal, Moridin, Mesaana, Semmy, and all the others?
Zaela Sedai: 2003-10-06
I hate to bring this up, but since I am still a believer in Taimandred, (no matter what RJ says, he's probably covering) wouldn't this be yet another tie in? Taim was there, he can channel, and Asmo would definately recognize Demandred. And Taimandred would have many reasons to stop Asmo's teachings. Sorry you tell me how wrong I am, but I can't let it go until I read otherwise in book 11 (hopefully). I love this theory.
Callandor: 2003-10-06
We are given no indication about how long it takes to be able to make a wish in Finnland, so we CANNOT rule out Lanfear for whatever reason you would like to think; and no, Moiraine and Lanfear aren't dead, but you did give some slack instead of saying she was dead to rule her out.
Taim isn't a Forsaken as Tam said, and again there is no even vague far far far out HINT of Taim having met Asmodean at all.
So Taim has one of the weakest motives of anybody that even possible to have killed Asmo; right up there with Fain and then a Trolloc.
Sir Milo: 2003-10-06
So we've got Taim, yes? Not one of the "old guard " of forsaken - perhaps, though, an up-and-coming member of the illustrious order of the chosen. Now, if you're the Dark One - you would want to TRAIN those assets you had - ie Taim. Asmodean seems like the person for the job for two reasons -1) Lanfear chose him to teach Rand (perhaps because he is not the strongest of the male forsaken and therefore she could browbeat him, or perhaps because he has had experience teaching) - and 2) it doesn't seem like Asmodean was trying to inflitrate himself into society prior to his journey into the waste like the other forsaken had to be doing at that time - this could be because he was teaching Taim and other prospective dreadlords ( It would seem to fit his character- something he could do offhand, nothing too rigorous, or potentially fatal - so he thought).
I put forth that THIS is why Asmodean would notice Taim before he was killed - because he taught the little upstart. This would also explain his surprise; his beloved protege becomes his killer. It would seem that Taim would have to have been taught by a forsaken at one point or another . . .
jason wolfbrother: 2003-10-07
Callandor we actually do have a pretty good idea that any transactions and wish granting with the *Finn takes up a lot of time. Rand was inside the glass ter'angreal for almost 3 days going through his ancestor's lives and memories. Mat entered the doorway very shortly after Rand entered. When Rand exited the ter'angreal he saw Mat hanging from the tree. Now regardless of whether Mat was actually dead or not he was still freshly put into the tree. So his trip took at least 2 days. Herego Lanfear would still be doing business with the *finn when Asmo bit the dust.
Anubis: 2003-10-07
no, actually the only thing that we do know is that time flows differently in other worlds. so mats... hourlong trip to finnland was a couple days, it is entirely possible that someone could step in and then step out (thats how it would be percieved on "our" side) wishes granted. Also matt did things very wrong. He resisted the finns, and argued with them, and demanded answers, and oh hey, was really really ta'veren. All reasons for the process to take longer.
Callandor: 2003-10-07
**it doesn't seem like Asmodean was trying to inflitrate himself into society prior to his journey into the waste like the other forsaken had to be doing at that time - this could be because he was teaching Taim and other prospective dreadlords ( It would seem to fit his character- something he could do offhand, nothing too rigorous, or potentially fatal - so he thought).**
Umm... No. Lanfear dug Asmodean out of his hidding place; he wasn't teaching anyone but Rand.
**TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 50 - Traps
Abruptly the woman was on the bank, clothed in white, narrow waist belted in wide woven silver, silver stars and crescents in her midnight hair. The land rose slightly behind her to an ash grove on a mound. He did not remember seeing ash before. She was facing-a blur. A thick, gray, man-sized fuzzing of the air. This was all . . . wrong, somehow. "Risk," she sneered."You fear risk as much as Moghedien, don't you? You would creep about like the Spider herself. Had I not hauled you out of your hole, you'd still be hiding, and waiting to snatch a few scraps." "If you cannot control your . . . appetites," the blur said in the man's voice, "why should I associate with you at all? If I must take risks, I want a greater reward than pulling strings on a puppet."**
shane: 2003-10-08
I was indifferent to who killed Asmodean but I do like the idea that it was taim. It would also explain his arrogance when confronting the Dragon Reborn.. a meeting of equals ..both having killed a forsaken also Sir Milo makes a nice point about him being chosen to teach Rand because he was already teaching Taim while as
Therilon comments ''We have no real solid proof that Taim is a DF or a Chosen'' I think we can take it as a given this is so,
he is not a stupid man who after claiming to be TDR was caught by the AS but then freed by Darkfriends. Where would his sympathies lie?? also he does not want to go mad.
While all this is not proof. I just think it has some symmetry and it suits Jordan also to show the Forsaken were not demi gods just poeple with more know how. Killed by your student... the forsaken always did strive amoungst themselves!
jason wolfbrother: 2003-10-09
Actually it is the other way around. Mat spent almost 3 days of real world time inside the doorway. However long he thought it was is irrelevant. When Rand exited the glass columns he had spent 7 days inside. Regardless of how long Mat thought he spent in the doorway it was definitely longer than one or even two days.
rangkor: 2003-10-09
I agree with Shane's point about the student killing the teacher fitting with Jordan's style.
If this was true of Taim and Asmodean, the student killing the teacher in this case would fit with the fisher king references Jordan uses throughout the series.
Anubis: 2003-10-09
yes. just like the dream world time flows differently. it could be much shorter, or much longer. an hour could be a day, or a day could be an hour. both ways work. the only rule is that time continues to flow, you cant come back earlier then when you left. robert jordan has made this concept very clear with vacuoles, alternate realities, the dream world.. so why is it such a hard concep to grasp?
Callandor: 2003-10-09
**If this was true of Taim and Asmodean, the student killing the teacher in this case would fit with the fisher king references Jordan uses throughout the series.**
For the last time, Asmodean didn't teach Taim.
1. He was away at another place hidden till Lanfear took him out.
2. He says to Rand that he isn't a good teacher.
3. The timing doesn't match at all.
He wasn't teaching him, and we have no even hint of him meeting Taim. No recognition.
Therilon: 2003-10-10
Jason, remember that Mat would have had to have been out of the 'finn's world just a bit before rand.
If Mat had exited days before rand, then he would have been dead, completely and utterly.
Mat and Rand had to have spent very, very similar amounts of time in the glass colunms and in the 'finns' world.
Sir Milo: 2003-10-10
**1. He was away at another place hidden till Lanfear took him out.**
Teaching men to channel was never something you did in public, of course he would be hidden if he was teaching Taim. Otherwise he was, what? sitting there twiddling his thumbs?! He had to have been doing SOMETHING in hiding. . . or perhaps the Dark One just gives orders to everbody else? Maybe Asmo is the Dark One's favorite, so he's allowed to do absolutely nothing to further the Dark One's causes. . .
**2. He says to Rand that he isn't a good teacher**
How does Asmodean know he isn't a good teacher unless he has done it before?
jason wolfbrother: 2003-10-11
Actually that was I meant. I originally thought Rand and Mat were gone for only 3 days but I looked up the quote and Rand and Mat were in Rhuidean for 7 days. This actually backs up my point. If Mat went into the doorway say 20 minutes after Rand entered the glass columns then he still spent at least 6 days in the doorway. from TSR CH. 24 Rhuidean "There was no way of telling how long they walked. The corridor never changed, with its bent walls and its glowing yellow strips. Every doorway showed the identical chamber, ter'angreal, footprints and all. The sameness mad time slip into formlessness. Mat worried about how long he had been there. Surely longer than the hour he had given himself. His clothes were only damp now; his boots no longer made squishing noises. But he walked, stared at his guide's back, and walked."
When Rand exits the glass columns he sees Mat hanging and cuts him down. He pounds on his chest and finds a heartbeat. So Mat was just recently hung when Rand found him. also consider this quote from TSR Ch. 26 The Dedicated "'Burn me,' Mat muttered hoarsely,'we were in there all night. It's nearly sunrise. I didn't think it was that long.'"
Mat: 2003-10-11
I do not believe it was Taim at all. I do not believe it was Demandred, Demandred was always second to LewS, so killing his teacher would be himself admitting that Lews Therin is better than him and that he could only defeat him if he is untutored. Not really inline with the egomaniac he seems to be.
I am more attuned to think it was Rand himself (far stretch I know)
But I more believe it was Shaidar Haran coming once more to dish out the Dark One's Punishment.
And more believable then Taim is Morded himself but again recoginition is a factor against that, since I do not believe Asmo has ever met him. And since none of the others recognized him as Ishy I am certain Asmo didn't.
Mairashda: 2003-10-12
Shaidar haran?
how should Asmodean, a renegade forsaken, ever have met him before when not even Demandred knew of his existence.
additionally, the hand of the dark was not introduced until well, "lord of chaos", so it's out anyway.
Dragon: 2003-10-12
Taim has the same problem like all Forsaken (maybe except Moridin and Lanfear), he couldn't know that Asmodean would enter the room at this moment.
I really doubt that the meeting between Asmodean and his killer was merely a coincidence.
That would be quite poor writing by Robert Jordan.
Betrayer of Hope: 2003-10-13
The quote for Asmodean's murder involved the phrase "before death took him". One of the forsaken later references Moridin, saying he is arrogant to name himself after Death. One possibility on RJ's "obvious" culprit is that the description with Asmodean was literal, not just poetic phraseology.
Sampson: 2003-10-13
I'll let the cat out of the bag and tell everybody who killed Asmo. It was Ishy/Moridin! Before anybody goes crazy, stop and read. The very first book when Lews went crazy and killed everybody, who made sure that he understood what he did? Ishy! Who is the dark ones favorite? Ishy! Who did all the forsaken fear? Ishy!
Yes we do not come to know Moridin until after Asmo was killed. But we did have hints. The “watcher” hidden behind fan cloth. I think Ishy could have made sure that Asmo recognized him, and then used the TP to kill him. Who better to hand out the dark one's justice than his favorite? Ishy/Moridin.
Twists with in twists, plans with in plans. Ishy has had plans in place for longer than any other forsaken. He would ensure that those plans would not be derailed by somebody teaching Rand, which would have the effect of giving him confidence. Then he wouldn't ever have a chance of turning him to the dark side.
jaellon: 2003-10-13
Jordan had the question posed to him, whether "death took him" could be clever phraseology for "Moridin". His response was a heartfelt and disgusted "No!" (I don't remember his exact wording).
What was Asmodean doing? Lanfear considered it to be "hiding", but she definitely has a distorted perspective. As ambitious as she is, anyone not seeking similar ambitions would be viewed by her to be hiding. It could be said that Graendal was hiding.
He was not necessarily under orders from the Dark One. It has seemed that the Forsaken have been free to go their own way and do their own thing. Teaching up-and-comings is one possibility. Infiltrating some minor no-influence country would be another (like the borderlands). Either of these would give Asmodean a chance to become acquainted with Taim
Barring the existence of Taimendred, I don't think we can authoritatively dismiss Taim as a suspect until we learn more about Asmodean's early activities.
Mairashda: 2003-10-13
does "you" have to refer to one single person? there might be several accomplices in this...
Mairashda: 2003-10-13
oh, and: Jordan has reportedly (http://www.angelfire.com/al2/hab/wot.formen.html) stated at at least one book signing that "death took him" does not refer to Moridin.
however, we can at least state that Asmodean was not balefired since his last words still hung in the air when he died.
Callandor: 2003-10-13
**however, we can at least state that Asmodean was not balefired since his last words still hung in the air when he died.**
Umm.. No. That only strengthens the fact that he WAS balefired.
**TITLE: Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 55 - What Is Written in Prophecy
There was an instant of surprise on the Forsaken's face, and he had time to scream "No!" Then a bar of white fire hotter than the sun shot from the Aes Sedai's hands, a glaring rod that banished all shadows. Before it, Be'lal became a shape of shimmering motes, specks dancing in the light for less than a heartbeat, flecks consumed before his cry faded.**
So no, Asmodean's words hanging in NO way prove that balefire wasnt used.
Mairashda: 2003-10-14
mh... you're right, I didn't think this through to the end: its all a matter of timing, I suppose... say, asmodean was balefired right after he uttered those words at least part of the sound would never have been uttered so it could not have hung in the air...only in someones memory.
asmodean may of course have tried to escape after his starteled expression or something else may have happened to him that could then have been deleted and never have happened...
then there's also the option that the killer used only the least required amount of the power (to prevent being detected)which would result in the deletion of perhaps only a fraction of a second of asmodeans actions...
Murrin: 2003-10-26
Although I have nothing much to back it up, I continue to be of the opinion that 'the clues are all there if you want to work it out' simply refers to 'You? No!'. I take this to be a glaringly obvious (and so missed by a lot of people) reference to the death of Be'lal, which, of course, points to the only other person who knows the identity of Natael - Moiraine.
Gaul: 2003-11-02
Rand also cut the tie from the dark one to Asmodean. i dont know if this helps anyone puzzle anything out, i thought it would help me, then starting thinkning and realized i still have no clue who it could have been. It could have been anyone, each post that names a different person that killed him all has reasonable points, so im still thinking
Cor Shan: 2003-11-02
Tsk Tsk....
Can't be Moraine, same as Cyndane/Lanfear, trapped with the Eelfinn and Aelfinn, AND Mo sees the purpose of Asmodean: a teacher.
*****
Fires of Heaven, Small Hardcover.
Chapter 53, Fading Words, Pg 638
Lastly , be wary of Master Jasin Natael. I cannot aprove wholly, but I understand. Parhaps it is the only way. Yet be careful of him. He is the same man now that he always was. Remember that always.
*****
I cannot aprove wholly, _but I understand
*****
She doesn't want to kill him... at least not much.
No Mo! No Mo! No Mo! No Mo! No Mo! No Mo!
Zaela Sedai: 2003-11-03
I never thought of Moiraine, but it is a great theory. It would be a great way to bring her back. The only thing is that it would mean that no-one goes to Finnland to save her. Although since when does she need help being saved?:) The only thing is, she let Asmo teach Rand before because he was the only one that could at the time, so why kill him now? Any ideas?
Wolfbrother: 2003-11-14
I unfortunately do not have a theory as to who killed Asmo. It bugs me because I just finished reading FOH, and still have more questions than answers.
One thing though. I believe RJ said that the evidence is all there to figure it out at the end of FOH. That being true, It can't be Moridin (which RJ has already said). It can't be Shaidar Haran. The only way it could be Taim is if he was Demandred. Lanfear, still with the Finns.
More than it just being someone Asmo knows, it has to be someone we know too.
Why do I get the feeling that if I ever find out, it's gonna kill me how blatant it had to have been.
Canan Urgas: 2006-04-10
I would also hazard a guess that only quote "a chosen could do it as Rand would have sensed the use of the Saidar or Saidin, but not the one source of the dark one"
well the only one who could use the true power, and asmo never saw moridin-he remembers him as ishamael as he was with rand when the other forsaken were introduced to moridin.
taim on the other hand could have inverted his weaves if he needed to, and he would have known asmo and asmo would have known him if hed been a darkfriend for a while, which im sure a lot of people agree that he was. think about it-asmo died at the end of whichever book (i forget) and at the beginning of the next, taim turns up. i cant wait for RJ to put us out of our mystery with this one!!!
sogoloth: 2006-04-10
RJ has stated several times that all the evidence needed to discover Asmo's killer is in the books up to TFoH. This means that any char introduced AFTER TFoH is out, which of course includes Taim. True, Taim was MENTIONED since book 1 - but we aren't introduced to him until LoC. In order to assess if Taim is the killer we would need to have an insight into Taim's mind, alliance, etc. At the point Asmo is killed we don't know anything of Taim other than that he was a false dragon and that he's somewhere in Andor. Certainly, not enough to consider him a suspect. Really, how many of you gave Taim a second thought before LoC, other than an "it would be cool if..." scenario?
While I, like so many others, am clueless as to who killed Asmo, based on what RJ has revealed about it we should be able to rule out several chars - which has been done on several threads, including this one, so I'm not going to repost them. I just hope that RJ reveals it someday, so all us dummies out here will finally know the answer...
Callandor: 2006-04-10
**taim on the other hand could have inverted his weaves if he needed to, and he would have known asmo and asmo would have known him if hed been a darkfriend for a while, which im sure a lot of people agree that he was.**
It makes it more likely that they had met, but it doesn't make it at all a certainty. There are plenty of Darkfriends at all levels who are completely ignorant of other Darkfriends -- the Black Ajah is designed the way it is with this specific point in mind even.
**think about it-asmo died at the end of whichever book (i forget) and at the beginning of the next, taim turns up. i cant wait for RJ to put us out of our mystery with this one!!!**
But, while they may happen literarily close together, they're not chronologically. Asmodean dies 37 days before Taim shows up in Caemlyn -- more than a full month. It's not a one day or two day connection; it's still a while before Taim shows up.
Finally, if you're using it as evidence that Taim can invert his attacks (it would actually be reversing), then so can any of the Forsaken as well. Added to this, at the time the True Power restriction was not put in place. We have no reason to assume that Moridin was back at this point, and we know that the True Power wasn't restricted until Moridin became Nae'blis, which happened between roughly middle The Path of Daggers and early Winter's Heart (can't be specific because Forsaken meetings aren't given the strictest of timelines; even an educated estimate puts it at a 28 day difference between two marker events).
JakOShadows: 2006-04-11
I do agree that Taim is a possible suspect, but there are a lot of ifs concerning him at that time. We didn't know if he was connected to any of the forsaken yet, and then they would have had to be privy to Rand's doing. So there are a lot of unknowns to reconcile in proving Taim. And not only that, he would have to be able to do some kind of traveling/hiding in my opinion to sneak in anywhere close to the wine closet or where Asmo was, and this would also bring into question how much he knew before Rand taught him. And on other thing is that in Bashere's pov he mentions going to pick up some wine from downstairs and that has to play into this somehow. Whether it is pointing out that someone to be able to travel, or whatever it is, it definitely hints at something beyond the coincidence of him being there. It seemed like it was meant to be clue.
sogoloth: 2006-04-11
I have a good mind to just hire a PI and get it over with. If the clues are there a good detective should be able to figure it out. Not being a good detective, or even a detective at all heh, I have no hope of figuring it out and I know it. My request:
SPILL THE BEANS RJ!!!!!!!!
If for no other reason than to put this debate to rest, please inform the ignorant so we can sleep at night...
Speedy Greenie: 2006-04-11
Perhaps the Dark One himself killed Asmodean. Jordan said that the killer is obvious from the moment Asmodean is killed. I'd say the Dark One fits in that catagory. Though, has his touch expanded so far? Perhaps this is a special case since Asmodean was once connected to him.
Callandor: 2006-04-11
**This means that any char introduced AFTER TFoH is out, which of course includes Taim. True, Taim was MENTIONED since book 1 - but we aren't introduced to him until LoC. In order to assess if Taim is the killer we would need to have an insight into Taim's mind, alliance, etc. At the point Asmo is killed we don't know anything of Taim other than that he was a false dragon and that he's somewhere in Andor. Certainly, not enough to consider him a suspect. Really, how many of you gave Taim a second thought before LoC, other than an "it would be cool if..." scenario?**
I don't consider Taim viable now, let alone right after Lord of Chaos -- but he can't be ruled out as you said.
**I do agree that Taim is a possible suspect, but there are a lot of ifs concerning him at that time. We didn't know if he was connected to any of the forsaken yet, and then they would have had to be privy to Rand's doing. So there are a lot of unknowns to reconcile in proving Taim.**
Yes, that's the main problem.
**And on other thing is that in Bashere's pov he mentions going to pick up some wine from downstairs and that has to play into this somehow. Whether it is pointing out that someone to be able to travel, or whatever it is, it definitely hints at something beyond the coincidence of him being there. It seemed like it was meant to be clue.**
Not really. We don't even know where Asmodean died (it wasn't a wine closet), so how could it be a clue other than an easy way for people to jump the gun?
Darkshadow: 2006-04-12
I agree that there are many char possibilities and even though I am not certain about any one of them being the killer, I have to put out all of the info out there. Also, I thought that Asmo had been to the Borderlands, and the fact that Kadere and the other DFs was from there only reinforces that Lanfear and Asmo had stopped by the borderlands..
As to who broke Taim free, I don’t see anyone attacking and killing two Aes Sedai unless they can channel (Slayer only talks about the Tear Aes Sedai). I’m not sure how many black sisters were w/ Liandrin in Tanchico, but I didn’t get the idea that they split up after Tear since they all were in Ebou Dar following Moghy’s orders. Finally don’t know if it were coincidence that Asmo and Lanfear were in the Borderlands right at the same time that Taim escaped.
Then there was also Sammael, the man who hates LTT badly enough to send trollocs and lurks to him in Tear, Imre Stand, Lian’s hold, and the hold in Rhuidean. Also we see Sammael actively attacking Rand during his campaign in Cairhein. In the end of FOH, Mat is almost killed by a DF Maiden with a dagger containing THE GOLDEN BEES OF ILLIAN (Sammael country). He seems to have a constant stream of info on where Rand is as well as what he is doing. To dismiss his motive of getting rid of Rand’s only source of OP knowledge (he doesn’t know about LTT), is something I don’t think he will hesitate to remove. Then in LoC, he sends an emissary to Rand for truce, possibly thinking that Rand will want to cool down since he won’t learn anymore AoL OP knowledge from Asmo.
In the end, either one could be the culprit but it seems that Asmo would have known Sammael for sure.
Callandor: 2006-04-12
**I’m not sure how many black sisters were w/ Liandrin in Tanchico, but I didn’t get the idea that they split up after Tear since they all were in Ebou Dar following Moghy’s orders. Finally don’t know if it were coincidence that Asmo and Lanfear were in the Borderlands right at the same time that Taim escaped.**
1. Liandrin and co. were still together after Tear -- they were in Tanchico, then in Amadicia only to be split up by Moghedien.
2. Don't see what coincidence, since it's just a supposition that Lanfear and Asmodean were in the Borderlands.
**Then there was also Sammael, the man who hates LTT badly enough to send trollocs and lurks to him in Tear, Imre Stand, Lian’s hold, and the hold in Rhuidean.**
We only know he sent the Trollocs in Tear. Others could be other Forsaken.
**Also we see Sammael actively attacking Rand during his campaign in Cairhein. In the end of FOH, Mat is almost killed by a DF Maiden with a dagger containing THE GOLDEN BEES OF ILLIAN (Sammael country). He seems to have a constant stream of info on where Rand is as well as what he is doing.**
We have Rand saying it was Sammael, though Rand himself really doesn't have anymore of a clue than we do if he's right. Remember, the big plan of The Fires of Heaven was to draw Rand to Sammael; that's why Mat is nearly killed with a dagger with the bees of Illian, it was a last resort. But it doesn't mean that it was actually sent by Sammael, nor that it was truly Sammael that participated in Cairhien (but he is a possibility).
**In the end, either one could be the culprit but it seems that Asmo would have known Sammael for sure.**
But Sammael says in his POV that he would kill Asmodean if he could find him in Lord of Chaos, and he's pretty genuinely mad at this point so it's unlikely he's lying.
JakOShadows: 2006-04-12
Darkshadow:
The only problem I have with Sammuel is that for the original plan to work, he would have to remain where he is. And he would need the information quickly and then act immediately if he were to do it at that time in person. Now it could be a hired assassin, but he doesn't know any black ajah and we haven't heard of an assassin he has hired who can channel. And other than that he has no means to hire someone to do this that pass the obvious test. But I do agree that his motive can't be ignored, so I agree with you there. Its the means and logic considering the timeline.