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aim killed Asmodean

by Sodas: 2004-04-29 | Not yet rated

Previous Categories: Who Killed Asmodean

This question has been beaten to death so many times. But why is it so difficult to determine the answer? I think it is because we have handicapped ourselves into believing something that is not true.

FAQ : "The first, of course, is the 'obvious' issue. Prior to LOC, Taim did not appear as anything other than vague rumor; we had absolutely no firsthand information on him at all until after Asmo's death."

Never has Jordan said that the case is 'obvious' by the end of TFoH.

Jordan has said the following on the subject :

"The Asmodean question? I've said time and again that there is enough evidence for you guys to figure out who killed Asmodean. I have, since Asmodean's death, put in a few more clues. The evidence is there, if not exactly listed with flaming arrows pointing to it. It should be intuitively obvious to the most casual observer." http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=59

Make note of the fact that it should be obvious to a casual observer. A casual observer can not be informed by outside sources. They would not have access to RJ interviews, booksignings or www.theoryland.com. Their sole source of information is the books.

I believe that this quote, above all, shows that Jordan is frustrated that he is being asked repeatedly. But no more so than a teacher trying to get a student to focus on the lesson, and not the shortcut out. No wonder Jordan's catchphrase is Read and Find Out.

Unfortunately, I've seen too many theories that still stress that it should be obvious by the end of TFoH. Unfortunately, there are no 'obvious' suspects by then. Graendal's supporters must admit that Sammael is just as likely, or in fact, more likely, 'obvious' by the end of TFoH. Fain can't be obvious because the murder absolutely doesn't fit his style. Slayer was injured at the end of TFoH. Lanfear and Moiraine both fell through the Gateway together, which points to them being occupied at the moment.

So who is Taim?

We have no 1st person points of view from Taim, so we are left with understanding Taim from the events surrounding him, and his conversations with Rand.

We first learn of the Black Ajah plot in TSR Ch.5 from Joiya

"Joiya shrugged, 'As you wish. Let me see. Different words. The false Dragon Mazrim Taim, who was captured in Saldaea, can channel with incredible strength. Perhaps as much as Rand al'Thor, or nearly so, if the reports can be believed. Before he can be brought to Tar Valon and gentled, Liandrin means to break him free. He will be proclaimed as the Dragon Reborn, his name given as Rand Al'Thor, and then he will be set to destruction on such a scale as the world has no seen since the War of the Hundred Years."

But is Joiya telling the truth? I believe this is best told through Moiraine's behavior.

Moraine appearently denies it to Egwene and Nynaeve by stating the Taim would find it impossible to proclaim himself after his escape, not because the escape is impossible.

"Is that what Moiraine told you?' Joiya asked with a touch of contempt. 'Moiraine has spent little time in the Tower since she was raised, and not much more with her sisters anywhere. I supposed she knows the workings of village life, perhaps even something of the politics between nations, but she does claim certainty about matters learned only through study and discussion with those who know. Still, she might be correct, Mazrim Taim might well find it impossible to proclaim himself. But if others do it for him, is there a difference that matters?" tSR ch.5

However, her reaction is counter to dismissive.

"Three times--" Nynaeve burst out at Moiraine, "only three! --you have consented to help us question them. This time you vanish before we begin, and now you calmly annouce you are sending them off to Tar Valon! If you will not help, at least do not interfere!" tSR ch.6

And as an extra measure, Moiraine sends 3 letters to Sanche about what Joiya has stated.

"If Joiya speaks truly, it will take Aes Sedai and Warders to guard Mazrim Taim, not just the three of you. I sent a warning to the Amyrlin by pigeon when I first heard Joiya's story. In fact, I sent 3 pigeons, to make sure one reaches the Tower." tSR ch.6

But what we find is that only 1 letter arrives from Moiraine to Sanche, and only after Taim's escape.

"Why didn't she say more? And why have we not heard from her before this?" tSR ch.17

What is evident, is that someone is filtering the mail. Its not too crazy to suspect that the Black Ajah is playing a role in the blockade of Moiraine's information. Their plan required Rand to go ahead and proclaim himself, in order for Taim to act in his place (as quoted above in ch.5) So Sanche's forwarding of her plans to encourage Rand, is perfect for the Black Ajah. Which is why its no mystery that the Black Ajah would have much to gain if the plan was true, by filtering Sanche from knowing what was in Moiraine's letters.

"Nearly as bad as Trollocs, Mother." she said almost as soon as she began reading. "Mazrim Taim has escaped."

"Light!" Siuan barked. "How?"

"This only says he was taken away by stealth in the night, Mother. Two sisters are dead." - tSR ch.17

With 2 sisters dead, Moiraine has been proven disturbingly correct in her statement "If Joiya speaks truly, it will take Aes Sedai and Warders to guard Mazrim Taim, not just the three of you."

Some would say that this proves very little. But what is begun here is a basis for what happens in LoC and beyond.

We know in LoC, that Taim shows up alone. No followers. If he had been freed by his fanatic followers, why aren't they there? Most of them were completely out of sync with reality if they continued to follow Mazrim Taim.

Remember Joiya's recreation of Moiraine's thoughts on Taim?

"Still, she might be correct, Mazrim Taim might well find it impossible to proclaim himself."

Which leaves us ultimately with what I see as Joiya's lie. Joiya states, "He will be proclaimed as the Dragon Reborn, his name given as Rand Al'Thor, and then he will be set to destruction on such a scale as the world has not seen since the War of the Hundred Years." But I believe Taim is never proclaimed the Dragon Reborn after his escape because it is not feasible anymore.

What we know from LoC, is that Taim joins Rand. Instead of claiming to be Rand, he becomes the leader of the Asha'man in all but name. If Taim tried to destroy Tar Valon without Rand's permission, would it not be blamed on Rand?

So I believe Joiya told the truth about the Taim plot, but lied about exactly would happen afterwards. Thus lying and keeping to her black oaths, but yet sounding like she was giving up the goods. Because one can even assume that Joiya knew that Moiraine's letters would never arrive in time.

Lastly, Taim's comments also attest to the general feeling that no one would follow him anymore even if he did proclaim himself.

"What are my choices? To wander the world alone, friendless, hunted, while you rise to glory? That's supposing Bashere doesn't manage to kill me before I can leave the city, or your Aiel women don't. Even if they don't, the Aes Sedai will corner me sooner or later; I doubt the Tower means to forget Mazrim Taim."

If we assume from this point forward that Taim was freed by the Black Ajah, then his escape takes on a more important light. Obviously, if the Black Ajah tried to free Taim and not Joiya, then obviously Taim is more important than Joiya in the eyes of the Black Ajah.

But why?

I turn to our old friend, Howal Gode for the answer.

"Stop being foolish, my young friends. You know. You know very well. The Great Lord of the Dark has marked you for his own. [b]It is written that when he awakes, the new Dreadlords will be there to praise him.[/b] You must be [b]two[/b] of them, else I would not have been sent to find you."

While this quote can be very widely interpreted, I feel it says the following :

1. There is going to be a meeting of Dreadlords.

2. Gode doesn't seem to know what it means to be a Dreadlord

What matters to me is that here, we have some inkling that there might be a meeting of what Gode refers to as Dreadlords. In fact, I believe that Gode intends to bring Rand and Mat to the Darkfriend meeting in the prologue of tGH..

It's highly likely the Darkfriend Meeting included the 'New Dreadlords." I believe this is a very important statement, and it comes in the first book. Not deep in TFoH, but at the beginning of the series.

So we should have at least some reason to suspect by the end of TFoH that

1. There might be New Dreadlords

2. Taim most likely was freed by the BA because of some importance

3. The Dark might try to use Taim to hurt Rand's image

Which begs the question, is Taim connected to the Shadow?

I would like to introduce a new piece of evidence here that you have probably not seen before.

We learn of Lord Elegar in the TFoH prologue

"A minor noble, but faithful to his vows. He licked his thin lips nervously and glaced at the woman, then went immediately to one knee before Rahvin. Friends of the Dark -- Darkfriends they were called, now -- had begun learning just how strictly they would be kept to their vows now that Rahvin and the others were freed."

Fortunately for Lord Elegar, he ends up being in the courtyard when Taim shows up:

"Elegar staggered back among the columns and bent over, retching loudly."

I feel this is a very big hint. Here is an aid to Rahvin and Rand, who he wasn't nervous around. Yet, Taim makes him throw up.

Once again, I have to say that it is highly unlikely that he did this simply out of disgust. I believe that Lord Elegar clearly recognized Taim, and conviently hid himself from Taim's gaze.

With that, I would like to point everyone to the FAQ section link. They have a good listing of the points for and against Taim being connected with the Dark. However, they once against assume the only option is that Taim is Demandred's minion, with which I don't agree. The following are the best arguments for Taim being something more than a Demandred minion.

1. In LOC, Taim knows how to test for channeling ability, and picks up Gateways with relative ease. He apparently teaches the Asha'man very well. Plus, Taim mentions to Bashere that he used Compulsion on two people [LOC: 2, A New Arrival, 76].

2. Taim claims to not be affected by the Taint, after (Rand estimates) 15 years of channeling [LOC: 2, A New Arrival, 76].

3. Rand estimates Taim's age as 35, or a few years older [LOC: 2, A New Arrival, 76]. However, Rand doesn't know about the "slowing" effect of using the OP. Elayne talks about it in ACOS: "'We slow, Nynaeve. Somewhere between twenty and twenty-five, we begin aging more slowly. How much depends on how strong you are, but when doesn't'" [ACOS: 24, The Kin, 408]. According to RJ, a man with the spark doesn't slow until 25, usually closer to thirty. [Post-TPOD Signing, New York, 20 October, 1998, report by Ryan R.].

Thus, the only way Taim could be the age he looks is if he started channeling at an unusually late age. If he's legit, he'd have to be a wilder, and thus he must have started channeling young, at around Rand's age. Let's postulate that men slow at a rate similar to women. We know that Garenia ran away from the Tower 70 years ago, and presumably she slowed before then, or soon afterwards (in her early 20s, as is usual for women). Garenia looks like she is Nynaeve's age, around 26. That corresponds to about five years of physical aging in 70 years. So, if Taim started slowing at 30, then his actual age should be around 100 or so. Thus, the problem of Taim's age is even more extreme than it first appears.

4. Taim's remark on "These so-called Aiel" [LOC: 11, Lessons and Teachers, 215]. Taim's remark's context is that of questioning the loyalty of the Aiel to Rand. Therefore, Taim must have understood what Aiel ment.

5. When Rand shows Taim how to make a gateway, he calls it a "gateway." A little further in the same chapter, Taim says, "You can Travel, but you don't know how to test for the talent." How does Taim know that a Gateway = Traveling? AFAIK, Rand didn't mention anything about "traveling," only "gateways."

6. Taim has taken to calling himself "The M'Hael," which means "leader" in the Old Tongue, and giving OT designations to his lieutenants. Taim knows an awful lot about the Old Tongue for a modern-day Randlander.

7. Taim has pretty much built the Black Tower on his own. Rand has made little effort to be involved in it, and has left the recruiting, training, and testing of Asha'man to Taim. Taim, in turn, has done a fine job - in just a few months (between LOC and TPOD) he's created an unconventional military force which can take on anybody in Randland, including Aes Sedai and Seanchan. Just a handful of Asha'man have proven to be the decisive factor in many battles, some of them against opponents with channeling capability.

So, we must ask ourselves, if Taim is so efficient at turning out combat channelers, why didn't he do it when HE was claiming to be the Dragon Reborn? He claims to have tried training other men to channel [LOC: 2, A New Arrival, 79], so the thought must have occurred to him. Granted, since he lacked Rand's ta'veren-power to attract recruits, he would have had a much smaller force than the 500 or so now at the BT. However, given that two or three percent of people can learn to channel [Guide: 2, The One Power and the True Source, 18], and that Taim's army of followers was of a "normal" Randland size (on the order of a couple thousand), he should have been able to get at least 10-20 men who could have been useful. Even ten male channelers is nothing to sneeze at, and yet Taim the False Dragon had no channeling followers.

8. A quick list of Gedwyn, Rochaid, Kisman, and Torval's curriculum vitae in TPOD:

* They set up the Illianer rebels to attempt to assassinate Rand, supposedly at the instigation of Aes Sedai.

* Torval tried to make Rand suspicious of Egwene's army which was, at the time, marching towards Caemlyn and the BT.

* Possibly, Gedwyn tried to subvert or cause problems with High Lord Weiramon.

* Taim set them up as "deserters" who tried to kill Rand (see section 1.4.10).

Originally, none of this pointed one way or the other. Both Minion Taim and Non-Dark Taim would be interested in exacerbating the tensions between Rand and the Aes Sedai, for reasons already discussed. Similarly, either Non-Dark Taim or Minion Taim would benefit from having a force of channelers who worked independently of the BT, and whose loyalty he could count upon, and whose actions he wouldn't have to justify to Rand.

However, Kisman's POV in WH changed matters:

"Kill him," the M'Hael had ordered, before sending them to Cairhien, but he had been as displeased that they were found out as that they had failed. Far Madding was to be their last chance; he had made that as plain as polished brass. Dashiva had simply vanished. Kisman did not know whether he had run or the M'Hael had killed him, and he did not care.

"Kill him," Demandred had commanded later, but he had added that it would be better they died than let themselves be discovered again. By anyone, even the M'Hael, as if he did not know of Taim's order.

And later still, Moridin had said, "Kill him if you must, but above all, bring everything in his possession to me. That will redeem your previous transgressions."

[WH: 22, Out of Thin Air, 441-443]

Besides positively confirming that Taim was behind the attack in Cairhien, this quote also established that the renegade Asha'man were definitely all Darkfriends, and working in some capacity for both Taim and Demandred. (It's unclear from the quote whether they were collectively also reporting to Moridin, or just Kisman was, or whether Moridin's visit was a once-off deal, or what.)

[b]But Most Important[/b] and what I believe proves Taim to be connected to the Dark, and not a minion of Demandred is...

9. After showing Taim the farm and testing Flinn in LOC, Rand and Taim have the following very interesting exchange, as Rand grouses about all the things he has to accomplish:

[Rand speaking]:"... And cleanse saidin, so men don't have to fear going mad, and the world doesn't have to fear men channeling. I'll..."

[...] "Cleanse saidin," Taim said softly. "I think that would take more power than you can imagine." His eyes lidded thoughtfully. "I have heard of things called sa'angreal. Do you have one you think you could actually - "

[LOC: 3, A Woman's Eyes, 91]

The significance of this quote is obvious. It means that Taim knew about Rand's intention to cleanse saidin long before Rand's slip in TPOD - he knew, in fact, from almost the moment the prohibition about killing Rand was put into place!

The FS, including and especially Demandred, know that the DO has forbidden anyone from killing Rand, as of the prologue of LOC. Taim finds out almost immediately afterwards that Rand is planning to cleanse the Taint, but nothing happens. (Well, a lot happens, but certainly the "don't kill" order is not changed.)

Then, in TPOD, Rand talks about cleansing saidin again - to Taim's lackey Torval, but much more importantly, to Dashiva, aka Osan'gar. With the result that Osan'gar tries to kill Rand at the end of the book.

True, Osan'gar merely joined in with an attempt on Rand's life already in motion, instigated by Taim, but what the above quote strongly suggests is that Taim's attack on Rand at the end of TPOD could not have been motivated by Rand's plan to cleanse the Taint. If it was, he would have tried to kill Rand two books earlier.

Osan'gar joining the attack, on the other hand, almost had to be motivated by that knowledge - and given what a wuss he was it's impossible to imagine he didn't have permission to do so from Moridin. He took advantage of Taim's conveniently timed assassination attempt to try and kill Rand.

The very strong implication here is that the FS in general didn't find out about Rand's plan to cleanse saidin until Osan'gar did, in TPOD. The obvious conclusion to draw, then, is that Taim could not be the Forsaken's minion, since Taim has apparently known for ages what the FS didn't discover until TPOD. The attack in Cairhien, then, was all on Taim's own initiative and had nothing to do with cleansing the taint.

This incidentally would explain perfectly why Taim was so shocked that Osan'gar joined in on the assassination attempt. If the attack was entirely motivated by Taim's own political self-interest, he would have had no idea what induced Dashiva to join in.

What we get is a very good case that Taim is a Dreadlord.

In fact, with the inconsistency in his Age, one would assume Taim could have been channeling for over 7 years. This implicates that Taim has the Dark One's protection from the Taint (aka. the black wires).

Which leads me to Slayer's latest employer, who I believe is indeed Taim.

The FAQ does a decent enough job narrowing the search down to basically Demandred and Taim at Link

But I highly doubt Demandred the culprit.

"The man had to be one of the Chosen. Few save the Chosen knew how to reach him, and none of the men among those few could channel, or would have dared trying to command him. His services were always begged, except by the Great Lord himself, and more recently by the Chosen, [b]but none of the Chosen Luc had met had ever taken such precautions as this.[/b]

In otherwords, the employer is hiding himself from Slayer's identification. I believe the FAQ is wrong, when the Forsaken found out that Rand was going to cleanse the source, all bets are off. Demandred had no reason to worry about hiding himself from Slayer. The only reason to have been hidden at that time, is if you weren't supposed to use Slayer in the first place.

- Also, I'd like to point out that Slayer's musings about killing Grey Men, turns into thoughts about the Chosen. Yet, he never thinks about killing a Forsaken, nor gives any hint that he has nothing but a basic cotempt for them all as group. No mention of a traitor or Asmodean. Therefore, Slayer's own thoughts prove himself innocent imo.

All of this leads me to believe there is a solid case to back up Taim's case as being a Dreadlord. One powerful enough to command other Dreadlords, and bold enough to risk commanding Slayer. So this is no ordinary Dreadlord, he has to be very special.

In, A New Spring, there are rumors of a man who has been channeling in the Borderlands. Could this have been Taim? Link If this is true, it's possible that Taim has been channeling many years.

This agrees with the idea that Ishmael taught Taim. Because in addition the the timing, there is the fact that Taim knows how to Test for the ability to channel. Rand has absolutely no clue how to test, so the indication is that it isn't intuitively obvious to your not-so-casual Channeler.

And then, there is the "so-called" Aiel phrase. The only other character to use that specific phrase was Ishmael.

We also know that Ishmael ran the Dreadlord Meeting of which Howal Gode refers. It would be no coincidence if Taim, as a Dreadlord, was there. Perhaps, even bringing the Darkfriends to and from the meeting. After all, Bors does not recount seeing Ishmael before his big entrance. So its possible that someone could have helped Ishmael do all the work.

So with Ishmael dead, the Aes Sedai after him...

"Do the best you can Leane. A dozen sisters. And five hundred of the guards. No, a full thousand." tSR ch.17

And most likely Bashere too, we are lead back to Rahvin.

First, note that Rahvin put off Bashere from ever entering the Palace.

"In truth, I rode to Caemlyn to speak to Morgase, but I was put off by Lord Gaebril's toadies..."

Yet, Bashere is certain that Taim is in Andor!

"I have followed him south for many weeks. You need not fear I've brought a foreign army into Andor. Except for an escort of ten, the rest I left camped in Braem Wood, well north of any border Andor has claimed in two hundred years. but Taim is in Andor. I am sure of it."

So when Taim shows up, what do we find out?

"Tumad emerged into the sunlight first, then a black-haired man of slightly above average height whose dark face and tilted eyes, hooked nose and high cheekbones, marked him another Saldaean, though he was clean shaven and garbed like a once prosperous Andoran merchant lately fallen on hard times. His dark blue coat had been of fine wool trimmed in darker velvet, but wear had made the cuffs ragged, his breaches bagged at the knee, and dust coasted his cracked boots." LoC ch2.

In addition, "the heat hardly seemed to touch him." - LoC ch.2

How does a Saldean, a man from what I would consider a cold climate, know how to use an AoL / Aes Sedai trick to ignore the heat?

And how does a False Dragon evade notice, while sticking out as a Saldean in Andorian clothing. I doubt he could have stolen the clothing.

I believe that Rahvin gave Taim the clothing. This would explain why the clothing is beaten up, as Taim would have had to go back to hiding if Rahvin was no longer protecting him.

So if indeed Taim was in the palace with Rahvin, this opens Taim up to some very important information. We know that Rahvin was the most likely suspect to have sent the Darkhounds to Rhuidean to see if Asmodean was with Rand. Basically, Rahvin is the only of the Forsaken who know, beyond Lanfear's word, that Asmodean was with Rand. So I suspect if Rahvin knew, Taim knew.

This puts a Dreadlord in Caemlyn, with the knowledge that Asmodean just might have followed Rand there.

Most theories suggest that their suspect killed Asmodean with Balefire. But what we know of Balefire, is that it is very powerful. But it ultimately leaves a residue. How could Rand or Aviendha not have noticed such a powerful weave, which had just been thrown around like crazy, if it was used to kill Asmodean?

What most people who believe Balefire was used as the weapon suggest, is that the description of Balefire matches the quickness and description of Asmodean's demise. While Balefire is near instant, I believe the description does not match.

Asmodean's murder: "You? No!" The word still hung in the air when death took him.

Belal's death: 'Before it, Be'lal became a shape of shimmering motes, specks dancing in the light for less than a heartbeat, flecks consumed before his cry faded.'

But there is an indenticle phrase used later, in LoC Ch.6

" Suddenly everything came together in his head. The door had opened. He was smelling filth, not just feeliing it, but it was not really a smell. Dropping the letter, he pushed Aviendha away from him hard enough that she toppled with a startled yell - clear of him, though; clear of danger; everything seemed to have slowed down - and seized saidin as he spun.

Nandera and Jalani were just turning back to see what had made Aviendha shout. Rand had to look carefully to see the tall man in a gray coat that neither Maiden saw at all as he glided right by them, dark lifeless eyes fixed on Rand. Even concentrating, Rand found his own gaze wanting to slide past the Gray Man. That was what he was; one of the Shadow's assassins. As the letter was settling to the floor, the Gray Man realized Rand had seen him. Aviendha's shout STILL HUNG IN THE AIR and she was in midbounce from sitting down hard; a knife appeared in the Gray Man's hand, held low, and he darted forward. Rand wrapped him in coils of Air almost contemptuously. And a wrist-thick bar of fire flashed past his shoulder, burned a hole through the Gray Man's chest large enough for a fist. The assassin died before he could twitch; his head fell over, and those eyes, no more dead than they had been, stared at Rand."

On top of this identicle term, Taim gets this wrist-thick bar of fire without Rand, Aviendha or the Maidin's noticing he had Gated onto Rand's balcony, grabbed saidin and fried the Gray Man. The same group that were the only one's that could have detected the killer of Asmodean.

So here is proof, that Taim could have gotten away with it right under the noses of Rand, Aviendha and the Maidins, which matches the description of Asmodean's death.

To summarize -

Means : Taim is almost as powerful as Rand, and knows it, and his attitude towards the Forsaken is such, that he would have no problem killing Asmodean.

Also, Taim has the means physically, to be able to kill someone instantly, without Rand, Aviendha and the Maiden's even noticing him gate in and commit the act.

Graendal, on the other hand, is relatively equal to Asmodean. And knowing that Graendal was never informed of Asmodean's shield or lack of the Black Wires, one would conclude that it would be a very high risk to try to permanently remove another equally powered Forsaken.

And her typical means, as shown in TPoD Ch.12, when under attack, is to use compulsion.

Motive : Taim, with confirmation of Asmodean's traitorship via Rahvin, had every reason to believe he would be best serving the DO and Ishmael, by removing anything that could have been helping Rand. Taim's later interest with Slayer indicate his intention to be a new Forsaken, perhaps even take Demandred's place. So, killing Asmodean, would have helped him alot in the Dark One's ranks.

Graendal, once again, has no confirmation of Asmodean's traitorship. Her belief in Lanfear is totally contradictory to her utter distaste for Lanfear. In addition, if Graendal had bumped into Asmodean by accident, a reaction of balefire seems contradictory. Balefire would imply permanence, something that doesn't play to Graendal's compulsive behavior, nor to the situation. In otherwords, balefire seems a planned method of removing someone, not just something you put in play while your deep undercover trying to cover your tracks.

Opportunity : Taim was actually in Andor, and its not too hard to assume he could have been in the palace.

Graendal was supposed to be in Illian. There is no basis for the assumption that Graendal would be in Caemlyn. The belief that her character includes rumaging for Angrael's after another Forsaken's fall, is actually, a misinterpretation. Graendal was never in Illian to look for Angrael, but to cover her plotting with Sammael from the other Forsaken. Therefore, there is no reason to believe she would put herself in harms way over 1 meeting with Rahvin, which occured months prior, and did nothing wrong. Her plotting with Sammael happened while the Ban on killing Rand was in effect. Another problem with that belief is that it assumes Graendal would kill Asmodean on accident. If her reason for going to Illian was to cover her tracks, she made alot more in Caemlyn by killing Asmodean. Therefore, her opportunity would rely.

Be A Person who Asmodean Recognized : Taim's affiliation to Ishmael, and most likely the most powerful of the New Dreadlord, makes him a threat to Asmodean anyway. If the DO can pick up new, more powerful, and more successful Forsaken, why does he need Asmodean? Therefore, Asmodean should even have reason to fear Taim.

Asmodean had every reason to fear Graendal as well.

Be able to dispose of the body : Shouldn't be too hard, there were lots of bodies lying around anyway.

Same for Graendal. Although Balefire would have made it just that much easier.

Must Know about Asmodean's Fate : Taim has never spoken on the subject, and therefore has absolutely no quotes even remotely counter to an indication of innocence.

Graendal tries to convince Sammael that both Lanfear and Asmodean are dead. Unfortunately, even if she did believe it, it would be wishful thinking. But this is a very easy to spot lie by Graendal, who is trying to get Sammael worried about Rand killing the other Forsaken. Therefore, her lies indicate the opposite, that she believe both Lanfear and Asmodean to be alive, just like every other Forsaken.

Why is it a secret? : So as to hide Taim's Dreadlord status from the reader. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been surprising when Taim turns on Rand.

There is no reason for Jordan to be hiding Graendal as the killer. Which is probably, why the original question keeps coming up.

All in all, it should be obvious to even the most casual observer, that Taim killed Asmodean.
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Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 2004-07-17

If only the rest of those who write theories would learn from your example, my reviewing job would be so much easier. Thank you for putting together such a great theory...now on to my criticism. First, the fact that I, a rather well read individual, hadn't connected the dots between Taim and Ishamael, would demonstrate in my mind that this theory isn't something a casual observer would pick up, even up through Book 8. Also, the thinnest part of your theory resides in the connection between Taim and Rahvin, which needs to be much stronger to pull me over to your side. However, your take on Taim being taught and raised (in a way) by Ishamael as a Dreadlord, possibly a leader of the Dreadlords (as in the M'Hael of Dreadlords) intrigues me, especially because your theory made me consider a something I had missed over the years - Taim is connected to the DO, which is obvious, but it now makes sense that he would want the job of searching for male channelers and conveniently bring back dreadlords under his command from his outings...man! That is brilliant. He was likely already training some of they guys, and they were likely already calling him M'Hael! Finally, tying Taim to Ishamael does suggest that Taim would know Asmodean and that Asmodean might have recognized him, but I don't see Taim and Rahvin having a comfortable relationship. If Taim was around, in my opinion, he was spying on Rahvin on Ishamael's behalf.

2

Great Lord of the Dark: 2004-07-17

Even though I came to a different conclusion than you, I've always liked this theory of yours. Do you happen to know exactly how long it is? My Moridin killed Asmodean took three pages on the message boards. It wouldn't do for you to surpass me. (That's right Tam, I'm the record-holder! Mwa-ha-ha-ha!)

I do have some related questions though:

I like your reasoning for Taim hiding his identity from Slayer.

You didn't mention Demandred much. Since he is the character from both prologue and epilogue of LoC, and Taim is the one bad guy who actually did something that book, you'd think they'd have some interaction/relationship. Would an alliance with Demandred prior to LoC make some of your other arguments weaker or stronger?

Interesting to note that Taim was as string as Rand, who was bottom-tier Forsaken class at that time. Knowing he's more powerful than a third of the Forsaken might make Taim very arrogant and lead to some of the situations you described. In fact, if he's Ishamael's protege, he would have learned of Slayer, Traveling, testing male channelers, etc, all to be kept secret until Rand shows up, then burst onto the stage and take Rand's place, as Joiya described. He could conceivably outrank some Forsaken in fact, as well as in his own mind. But as Ishy's pet, you'd have to wonder if Rahvin and Demandred wouldn't have tried to snuff him out, instead of aid him.

Finally, wouldn't the Dark be better served with two Darkfriends at Rand's side than just one? Asmodean and Taim could have recognized each other, pretended to be at each other's throats, but known that whatever happened, Rand would be closer bound to one of them. Asmodean could claim it was a brilliant ploy, and he hadn't actually been captured. Just a thought.

3

Callandor: 2004-07-18

**I feel this is a very big hint. Here is an aid to Rahvin and Rand, who he wasn't nervous around. Yet, Taim makes him throw up.**

It's interesting to note that nobles supporting Arymilla show the most reaction, but and the Andoran nobles do show some kind of reaction in panic/fear style.

**How does a Saldean, a man from what I would consider a cold climate, know how to use an AoL / Aes Sedai trick to ignore the heat?**

Does good to mention him being Saldaean, since Hadnan Kadere is sweating buckets from the temperature in Cairhien, which is very practically the same in Caemlyn. This is the least speculated over point ("He knows how to ignore heat, big deal!"), but it is big.

Elayne, Nynaeve, and Egwene did not know of it till they were - and here's the key word - Taught.

No Novice or Accepted in the White Tower does the trick till they are - again, that key word - Taught.

Rand al'Thor, a person trained by a Forsaken as well as memories of weaves and amazing channeling feats sporatically, could not do the trick till he was - one final time - Taught.

Oh, but Taim just picks it up on his own. Right.

Up until this point, I whole heartedly agree with you Sodas (and you know it ;)), Taim is a Darkfriend, most assuredly a Dreadlord, and Forsaken taught by Ishamael.

**Basically, Rahvin is the only of the Forsaken who know, beyond Lanfear's word, that Asmodean was with Rand. So I suspect if Rahvin knew, Taim knew.**

Why would it matter if he knew beyond Lanfear's word? Graendal and Sammael (and yes, Rahvin too) all took Lanfear at her word that Asmodean was teaching Rand (good thing to, since it was true).

**This puts a Dreadlord in Caemlyn, with the knowledge that Asmodean just might have followed Rand there.**

If, big if since Rahvin can simply say "Why the hell should I tell you?", Taim knew of Asmodean being with Rand, I guess he would have to know that he was being his teacher. Teachers don't usually come on attack strikes. And, even Rahvin isn't worried about Rand tugging Asmodean along with him to be a danger to him (good thing to since he would appear to be DEAD!).

**Most theories suggest that their suspect killed Asmodean with Balefire. But what we know of Balefire, is that it is very powerful. But it ultimately leaves a residue. How could Rand or Aviendha not have noticed such a powerful weave, which had just been thrown around like crazy, if it was used to kill Asmodean?**

It doesn't have to be a powerful weave. It can be simple ones, like the small weave that Moiraine did (since she could barely weave it), or the reduced ones Rand was using to kill Shadowspawn after he killed Rahvin, ones that stopped right after killing the target.

**On top of this identicle term, Taim gets this wrist-thick bar of fire without Rand, Aviendha or the Maidin's noticing he had Gated onto Rand's balcony, grabbed saidin and fried the Gray Man. The same group that were the only one's that could have detected the killer of Asmodean.**

And I must again (since you are used to this from the boards), point out for the 7th or 8th time, it is Aviendha doing the shouting, who was not killed, she did not stop shouting till after the incident, and it doesn't mean anything for it being similar to Asmodean, or Be'lal, since she did not die and have her shout remain in the air.

**So here is proof, that Taim could have gotten away with it right under the noses of Rand, Aviendha and the Maidins, which matches the description of Asmodean's death.**

Previous statement.

**Graendal was supposed to be in Illian. There is no basis for the assumption that Graendal would be in Caemlyn. The belief that her character includes rumaging for Angrael's after another Forsaken's fall, is actually, a misinterpretation. Graendal was never in Illian to look for Angrael, but to cover her plotting with Sammael from the other Forsaken. Therefore, there is no reason to believe she would put herself in harms way over 1 meeting with Rahvin, which occured months prior, and did nothing wrong.**

Ah, exactly :).

**Taim's affiliation to Ishmael, and most likely the most powerful of the New Dreadlord, makes him a threat to Asmodean anyway. If the DO can pick up new, more powerful, and more successful Forsaken, why does he need Asmodean? Therefore, Asmodean should even have reason to fear Taim.**

Why? Amsodean survived the War of Power, with people stronger in the Power then him. Why the heck would he "fear" Taim?

He spent time in Arad Doman, knew where Graendal was, then became Lanfear's lackey, before becoming tied to Rand.

**Be able to dispose of the body : Shouldn't be too hard, there were lots of bodies lying around anyway.**

All those bodies inside the Palace.... The ones that would've had to be carried through the Palace, and then dumped outside, without anyone noticing.

4

Zader: 2004-07-18

IMO I believe both Sodas and GLotD are right. Taim is Ishy is Moridin. At first, I believed the TP must have been used to kill Asmodean as neither Aviendha nor Rand felt Saidin or Saidar being woven. It may be though, that the person who killed Asmodean, had inverted their weaves, similar to the “Golden Haired Woman”(presumably Graendal) when the CK are being used to cleanse the taint. This method would only limit the usual suspects to FS though, as no one else has shown this ability other than FS. There is another interesting passage after Taim has killed the Grey Man. Rand talking to Taim “... That man had to come from Sammael.” “Perhaps,” Taim said shortly, glancing at the Grey Man. “I would give a great deal to be sure.” That had a ring of simple truth. “As for Illian, I doubt it would be as simple as disposing of a pair of AS.

I keep thinking what I would do in Sammael's place. I would have Illian warded in boxes, so if a man even thought of channelling, I'd know right where he was, and I would burn even the ground to ash before he had time to take a breath.” That was how Rand saw it, too, no one knew better than Sammael how to defend a place. Most of Rand's knowledge of Sammael came from LTT. Taim seems to have a good understanding of how Sammael thinks. LOC ch 42 When Rand goes to the BT. I should have killed him “long ago”, LT panted I should have ... should have... There was a stretching towards the source (quote marks put in by myself).

Later after Rand has given Taim the Sword and the Dragons they are talking “I will kill him LT shouted ... I will kill him, and then them...” “Oh Light I killed them all. All that I loved. If I kill him, it will be well, though. I can make it up, if I kill him finally. ...” LOC ch 55 When Taim offers to heal Rand he takes a step back ... “Yet even without LT, he did not want to be Healed by the man. He thought if Taim ever touched him with the Power, however innocently, he would kill him.” These quotes are only some of the reasons that I believe Taim is Ishy and therefore Moridin.
Also in answer to Tamyrlin, I have always assumed Taim was Ishy. (that is not to say I am right). I had not even considered about Taim being Demandred, until I started reading some of the theories. As to the reason Taim killed Asmodean. I always thought it was because he could not be sure how far he could trust Asmodean, now Asmodean was in league with Rand. Obviously Asmodean recognized whoever killed him. Taim/Ishy/Moridin could not be sure Asmodean would not betray him/them.

5

charliec: 2004-07-18

I'm in Apathy for Asmo, so I shouldn't really comment, except that this is really about Taim being a darkfriend...

so a couple of things, IF Taim is a darkfriend, who knows, he may outrank even some forsaken (though this doesn't fit too well with one of the Question of the Week answers...), but he is still under the authority of the Nae'blis, or if some are to be believed, he IS the Nae'blis... either way his actions don't appear to be well synchronised with other top-level DFs. Certainly the forsaken don't normally work together much, but Moridin's New Order doesn't appear to have touched Taim yet. Certainly if Taim and his loyal proteges in the Black Tower had turned up to disrupt the cleansing as well the Dark might actually have succeeded...

secondly, a point on your deductions about knowledge of the cleansing... when Taim first hears of it it's still in the hypothetical stage, and he doesn't take it particularly seriously... in a similar way, don't the forsaken mention it in a meeting in a former book, and one of the comment that even he couldn't see a way to do that... so they're in a similar position to Taim, it's a hypothetical issue, but probably not possible. Or maybe Taim did take it seriously, in which case why wasn't it fed back to the other forsaken earlier?

Thanks for putting together the pieces into such a comprehensive theory, especially the points about Taim probably having channeled for some time, and the rumour in New Spring... but I still think the jury's out on Taim being out-and-out evil, rather than another intermediate type.

6

Illuminati: 2004-07-19

* It may be though, that the person who killed Asmodean, had inverted their weaves, similar to the “Golden Haired Woman”(presumably Graendal) when the CK are being used to cleanse the taint.* Zadar

That woman was Cyndane. If we are thinking of the fight with Alivia that is. Which is the only recalling I have of a goldenhaired woman using inverted weaves in the cleansing.

I'm also very sceptical to the Taim is Moridin is Ishamael deal. Moridin is the true appearance then, since Rand have touched Moridin and the mask did not break. Which would mean that Taim is a mask of mirrors, and I do believe Taim has been touched altho I cannot think of an occation right away. Maybe the quotemaster can did it out. :)

I do agree that there is a connection between the appearance of Taim and Asmodeans murder. As the highranked DF that Taim most likely is, Asmodean would reqognize him and might alert Rand about his presence, it's very convinient of Asmodean to die right before Taim makes his entrance. It also makes sence for the author to keep the killer secret out of this reason, as to not give Taim away too early.

*But as Ishy's pet, you'd have to wonder if Rahvin and Demandred wouldn't have tried to snuff him out, instead of aid him.*

*If, big if since Rahvin can simply say "Why the hell should I tell you?", Taim knew of Asmodean being with Rand, I guess he would have to know that he was being his teacher.*

First, forsaken have shown to be arrogantly overconfident in their ability to controll people and events in the past. Rahvin or Demandred or both might have thought they could controll Taim as Ishamael presumably could.

Second, the death of Ishamael set Taim free, he didn't have to answer to anyone but the DO anymore. Which gave him the manouverability he has used ever since.

Third, Taim is as strong as any forsaken and stronger than most. He doesn't fear the forsaken like other DFs, he know he could match them from his training, he was ment to be set up as the dragon and was strong enough that he could be believed to be the dragon. Ofcorse he isn't foolish either, but he quite simply doesn't fear them and it's not above him to spy on forsaken or take risks around them. Reasoning in this light it doesn't matter if Rahvin told Taim that Asmodean was with Rand and teaching him... he could have spied on Rahvin as his guest/subject and aquired the info needed that way. Everyone here have been under the impression that Taim would be like most other DFs around forsaken. I think he would not... we have seen that he can controll himself and let others call the shots but he's in no way submissive and I think he'd be that way around other forsaken aswell with Ishamael out of the picture. Prolly his only master, there is also a good posability in this that Taim has been taught by Ishamael to not fear the other forsaken and how to handle them, as a nasty surprise if any of the other forsaken would decide to work against Ishamaels plans for Taim. And as such Taim might even been prepared to face the other forsaken before he actually met them.

This is a good theory. I like it, but I'm not abandoning my "Ishamael did it." that easily. There are still some weak points like how Taim would get rid of the corpse and so on. But it's the runnerup for sure. :)

7

charliec: 2004-07-19

** and I do believe Taim has been touched altho I cannot think of an occation right away. Maybe the quotemaster can did it out. :) **

Howsabout when we first meet him and he's being escorted in by the guards, with swords pressed right up to (and even into) him?

8

a dragonburned fool: 2004-07-19

It was pleasant to read that theory, despite of it arguing for a statement opposite to the one I stand for. There was already a debate on the message board about Taim being darkfriend or not, and here I wanted to oppose some Sodas' arguments about Taim standing for the Shadow.

Taim's escape: I must agree that the possibility that the Black Ajah freed and used him, looks more probable. However there are other possibilities.

We don't know how many AS escorted him. Two are dead, what happened with the others, if there were such? If they were only two sisters shielding him, Taim would be able to break the shield of his own and escape in that way. It is hard to believe however, that AS would leave it to only two sisters to shield a False Dragon, they could be six sisters, who were drugged like the ones who shielded Logain in Salidar were. That would need supporters from outside, that Taim seems not to have now (however not an army, but only a dexterous one, who could claim being carter, cook, or something like that in the escort. Also he could be freed by the Blacks who would also need enough sisters for to hold him, if they have not enough such, he could be kidnapped by the Blacks and then escape them.

Joiya's report: Joiya told BA plans, good, but what kind of BA-plans she could know at that time? She was captured before the culminations of Be'lal's plot, so all the plans she could know was something including as main task Be'lal's plan to capture Rand. The Tanchico plan could be backup plan in that time. Joiya's confessions about Taim would work if Rand is eliminated, and for that reason Be'lal would to success. After Be'lal failed, this plan became IMO unneeded. It had to be already in progress, and it had to be intended to be fulfilled not by the Liandrin's 13. Why Joiya knows about it in that case? She was not among the BA commanders. The only reason is, that at least part of the command of this plan came from Tear. After the fiasco of the Shadow in Tear, this plan would lose part of it's command, and the forces for fulfilling it would lose part of their support. That could lead to not enough BA AS to hold Taim after kidnapping him...

About Lord Elegar: He is showing fear for Taim when Taim's name is announced like all the others Andoran nobles, but in greater degree. All these nobles have perfect reasons for their fear: it's channeling man, whos battle skills were proven, something like another legendary monster, who could charge Rand or could make something other that would make the situation dangerous. Actually everybody is afraid of the Ashaman even more then of Rand, who at least is prophecied. About Elegar's greater degree of fear: when Rahvin in his PoV is thinking about this Elegar, his assotiation is how the DF "had begun learning just how strictly they would be kept to their vows now that Rahvin and the others were freed". I.e. Elegar's view reminds Rahvin on "just teaching" the DF about the needed respect. We know from Liandrin's example what this lessons are like. If Elegar was Rahvin's example about how the other DF must keep their vows, Elegar would have had very bad times, and his will could be broken. Elegar is extremely nervous already in Rahvin's time. so the degree of his fear could be just because he was done such shaking wretch by Rahvin.

Rahvin also gives no explanations to Elegar about his works, this Elegar seems to be minor minion. So I would not expect Rahvin to speak about Taim in his conversations with Elegar. Where Elegar would know about Taim else? Gossips? Or Taim being in Caemlyn in Rahvin's time? If the second were true, why then Taim hasn't participating in the battle between Rand's and Rahvin's troops? It would be wonderful chance for Taim to return to the plan of replacing Rand, if Rand and his Aiel were beaten in that moment, and if Taim was there in co-operation with Rahvin. Also Taim comes not immediately after the proclaiming of Rand's amnesty, but several days later, when many candidate Asha'man were already gathered at the farm. IMHO that's a hint, Taim was not in Caemlyn at that time.

on #4: It's not necessary that Taim means "these so-called Da'shain Aiel". Taim knows Old Tongue, in Old Tongue "aiel" means "dedicated", so Taim could mean something like "You are thinking that these Aiel are truly dedicated to You, but..."

on #6: Knowledge of Old Tongue is not incredible in the end of 3Age. Just the opposite: all the nobles are supposed to know it, i.e. everybody who wants to have the prestige of equal to nobles will have the motivation to know it. Taim is saldean, and we know that Saldean nobles, unlike those from Tear, really know Old Tongue (like Bashere and Faile), exactly in the extent to be capable to give titles and similar. Moiraine before coming to the Tower knows Old Tongue enough for need no lessons in it, so some nobles even know the Old Tongue perfectly. Taim is educated man, and he is crazy about having the reputation of a perfect leader. So he is to be expected to know at least some Old Tongue. After all even the lord-playboys from Tear know some words in Old Tongue, and Taim is much more perfectionist.

And I cannot believe that a Forsaken would waste his time in teaching Taim speaking Old Tongue. Forsakens allways speak New Tongue in this world. If Taim was influenced by the language-manierisms of a Forsaken, he would manifest it rather in the AoLer terms about channeling that are different from the corresponding 3Age terminology ("web" instead of "weave" etc.)

on #7: Taim showed too realistic disbelieve that Rand would find enough in number male channelers. Also he expressed his dismissive attitude against Rand's project of gathering male channelers and in teaching them. He is either very good actor (why would he play a role exactly about that aspect?), or he never seriously thought about teaching new channelers before, presupposing it's impossible to gather more then 2-3 volunteers in 2-3 years. He had even his own experience that volonteers are not easy to find. Rand's ta'verenness is here what works and changes the situation. Taim was just in the right place in the right time.

on #1: Taim's surprise that Rand doesn't know the testing weave, means that this is very easy weave. Compulsion is the weave that every second wilder, who comes in the Tower, reinvents. The Compulsion Taim used is more advanced, but it's based on something that is very often re-invented. So both weaves are something that Taim could invent by his own. The ease of him picking up the Travelling weave after seeing it from Rand, is exactly like the ease Rand picks up weaves he sees some Forsaken is using against him, or the ease Egwene or Elayne (Elayne so difficult weave as the Warder bond) are picking up weaves after looking at them only one time. It's possible.

on #5: "Traveling" is the best known "lost weave" from the AoL, it's one of the best known legends about the wonders of the Age of Legends. Lot of people know about it. An example: captain-general Miraj, after Suroth tells him that his enemy uses "the lost art of Traveling", immediately undestands everything without further explanations. That means that Miraj knows some legends about "Traveling", for to apply it to his current tactical situation. Miraj is definitely not DF, and he hasn't Forsaken advisor, so he can know it only from fairy tales and legends. It's like those characters who don't believe in the Wild Hunt, but believing in the Darkhounds immediately begin to think about usage of salt, oven-stones, avoidance of crossways etc., i.e. when a myth is recognized in the reality, one immediately uses his mythical knowledge as real. Taim looking at the effect of the Rand's "gateway" and knowing the legend about "Traveling" could add two and two and become four, i.e. to guess this is the legendary "Traveling".

About #1 and #5: also there is the possibility, that Taim also has some memories from a past life, from some AoLer AS. If the Taint makes holes in the barriers between the experience of the lives of a soul, it would work also on Taim.

on #8: The four DF Asha'mans are one of the most convincing arguments about Taim being Darkfriend. But Darkfriends could also win the trust of a paranoical megalomaniac like Taim, by being predictable in their struggle for power, by being careful in that struggle, by having skills both to obey commands unscrupulously and without reserves, and to be effective lieutenants of him, who can reflect his paranoical attitude down the command line. Also when Rand is chosing his Asha'man, Taim is speaking in very dismissive tone about Dashiva, i.e. Taim doesn't know how high is Dashiva in the Shadow hierarchy.

on #9: I don't agree that this Taim's comment means Taim's informed about Rand's plans before Rand's told him. Cleansing saidin is something that every man in the situation of channeling tainted saidin and having some brains, would be very motivated to think hard about. And figuring out, that whatever it could be, it would neel immense amount of Power, is not difficult. In the scene we have, Taim is in a period, when it must be expected from him to think very intensively about any strong and weak points of his new master, sa'angreals one of them, so Taim found a very good occasion to ask about Rand's advantages in sa'angreals without that question to look suspicious. IMHO Taim is not taking Rand's plans seriously, he would rather take it for an utopical task, but Rand's avowals are source of information about Rand, and Taim would think intensively about in any case, whatever his relation to the Shadow are ("...he is dreaming about so great thing, so he has something to allure him in thinking that... cleansing, it would definitely require many Power, so what thinks he about..." etc.)

9

Callandor: 2004-07-20

**I'm also very sceptical to the Taim is Moridin is Ishamael deal. Moridin is the true appearance then, since Rand have touched Moridin and the mask did not break. Which would mean that Taim is a mask of mirrors, and I do believe Taim has been touched altho I cannot think of an occation right away. Maybe the quotemaster can did it out. :)**

Besides the sword points:

** TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: 2 - A New Arrival

The prisoner's mouth quirked in what might have been the beginning of a smile, *and he rubbed his chin.* "I shaved, Bashere." His voice held more than a hint of mockery. "It is hot this far south, or had you not noticed?. Hotter than it should be, even here. Do you want proof of me? Shall I channel for you?" His dark eyes flickered to Rand, then back to Bashere, whose face was growing darker by the minute. "Perhaps not that, not now. I remember you. I had you beat at Irinjavar, until those visions appeared in the sky. But everyone knows that. What does everyone not know, that you and Mazrim Taim will?" Focused on Bashere, he seemed unaware of his guards, or their swords still hovering near his ribs. "I hear you hid what happened to Musar and Hachari and their wives." The mockery was gone; he was just relating what had happened, now. "They shouldn't have tried to kill me under a parley flag. I trust you found them good places as servants? All they'll really want to do now is serve and obey; they won't be happy otherwise. I could have killed them. They all four drew daggers."**

Taim rubbing his chin would've most likely destroyed the Illusion. Also, Taim was captured by BA, held prisoner, and escaped, before and after Ishamael's death.

Also, what's the point? Have we seen Ishamael disquise himself once to Rand or anyone else? He flaunts who he is and would control Taim rather then impersonate Taim.

**Third, Taim is as strong as any forsaken and stronger than most. He doesn't fear the forsaken like other DFs, he know he could match them from his training, he was ment to be set up as the dragon and was strong enough that he could be believed to be the dragon. Ofcorse he isn't foolish either, but he quite simply doesn't fear them and it's not above him to spy on forsaken or take risks around them. Reasoning in this light it doesn't matter if Rahvin told Taim that Asmodean was with Rand and teaching him... he could have spied on Rahvin as his guest/subject and aquired the info needed that way.**

1. How do you know Taim does not fear the Forsaken?

2. How do you know he does not act like any other Darkfriend, if he is one, and if he was around another Forsaken?

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: 3 - A Woman's Eyes

"One of the Forsaken!" It was almost a whisper. For the second time, Taim looked shaken, this time well and truly taken aback. "Why would-?"**

Interesting that he fears the Forsaken coming into the Black Tower, but he of course doesn't fear the Forsaken....

10

Great Lord of the Dark: 2004-07-20

Sorry, I never said Taim is Moridin is Ishamael. Moridin is Ishamael. Taim is Demandred. Glad I could clear up that misunderstanding. ;)

11

Aelfinn: 2004-07-20

*****TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: 3 - A Woman's Eyes

"One of the Forsaken!" It was almost a whisper. For the second time, Taim looked shaken, this time well and truly taken aback. "Why would-?"**

Interesting that he fears the Forsaken coming into the Black Tower, but he of course doesn't fear the Forsaken.... ***

This might be redundant (I didn't read the whole thread, only the first two and last two posts) but Taim's reaction is well within the ability of ANY moderately-capable actor.

12

Illuminati: 2004-07-21

What I was saying Callandor is that you should not automatically assume Taim is frightened of Forsaken if you follow this line of thought (this theory). Nothing else, so I have no evidence, but neither do you.

"**TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: 3 - A Woman's Eyes

"One of the Forsaken!" It was almost a whisper. For the second time, Taim looked shaken, this time well and truly taken aback. "Why would-?"**

Interesting that he fears the Forsaken coming into the Black Tower, but he of course doesn't fear the Forsaken...."

I don't see this passage the same way you do. There is nothing in this that show fear as I see it. But shock, that one of the forsaken had nestled himself into his own camp without him knowing. The reaction would not had been diffrent had we switched Taim here for any forsaken. That goes for another point that was brought up further up aswell. Taim did not know about Dashiva, no forsaken did either except Moridin. Osangar and Arangar were kept secret from everyone except Moridin and were used as spies by Moridin, equally to spy on other forsaken and darkfriends as spying on the enemy.

13

Zader: 2004-07-21

Illuminati

**That woman was Cyndane. If we are thinking of the fight with Alivia that is. Which is the only recalling I have of a goldenhaired woman using inverted weaves in the cleansing.**

Sorry it has taken so long to get back to this post. WH ch 25 Verin, Shalon, and Kumira are watching the woman walking through the forest ... Using the full strength of her circle she wove her shield, and watched aghast as it rebounded. The woman was already embracing saidar, though no light shone around her and she was immensely strong!... Verin could not see the weaves, but she knew when she was fighting off an attack on her life...I took this to mean the woman had been able to disguise the fact she was channelling by inverting her weaves.

14

charliec: 2004-07-22

Dashiva spying on darkfriend Taim just doesn't work for me... It's a waste of resources, and I think Moridin would just gather Taim up in the same way that he picked up Graendal... there's no good reason not to, and why go to the added risk leave someone apparently autonomous, and infiltrating their organisation with a spy?

It just seems random.

15

Illuminati: 2004-07-26

Zader:

My bad there. I thought you were refering to Alivias fight where Cyndane used inverted weaves. It was described in a simular manor. You're right, what you refered to might very well have been Graendal.

Charliec:

Spying on Taim is just a sideeffect. He's more around Rand as his personal bodyguard, and the position that close to Rand and as a Ashaman give him a perfect oportunity to spy on anyone trying to spy on Rand aswell. As I said before Darshiva was initially used to spy on everyone, he was an unknown agent that could spy just aswell on the shadow as the light. VERY useful to have if you want to be Naeblis since the competition come just as much from your own side as from the enemy.

Why let Taim act on his own? At first he prolly didn't want to show that he was back. Then Taim got going on his own and there is nothing saying that Ishamael doesn't like what Taim is doing. I think it very much plays into Ishamaels overall plans and there is no reason to interrupt someone doing a good job if the reason his doing a god job is because he thinks he'll benefit from it. If Ishamael would show himself to Taim it might take his motivation away as Taim might think that he'll have to answer to someone else again (the absence of that and his obsession with power is what makes him do a great job). In other words, if it ain't broken don't try to fix it.

All this is ofcorse pure speculation. I just wanted to show that the speculations make sense. And it works better than any Graendal did it I've seen so far.

16

charliec: 2004-07-27

**Spying on Taim is just a sideeffect. He's more around Rand as his personal bodyguard, and the position that close to Rand and as a Ashaman give him a perfect oportunity to spy on anyone trying to spy on Rand aswell.**

Being part of Rand's bodyguard was a piece of luck, not design, he was selected at random with no warning... which makes it hard to plan!

17

timetorollthedice: 2004-08-11

I am willing to consider Taim as a suspect but I think the base of the theory is insubstantial.

You start by saying that because it should be obvious to the most casual observer, it has to be Taim. You then write one of the longest posts I've ever seen with details from different books that a CASUAL observer isn't going to pick up on. (Well done, though).

If it is obvious to "the most casual observer" it makes sense that it is someone who is around within a few pages.

Taim kills Asmo and then shows up to accept amnesty. Simple. I'm leaning that direction, but not because of anything I've read in this post.

18

matoyak: 2004-08-11

Wow *breathlessly* damn thats long. should be abvious to the casual observer? not all that i'm not sure but it does sound pretty good, but i'm going with what timetorollthedice before me said its very simple. by the way in one interview (i think its on dragonmount) RJ said that the servents were nobody. I.M.O. just a red herring. (unless y'all quotemasters have a quote from another interview [maybe y'all could help me with the quote of what *I* think he said])

19

Stilicho: 2004-08-17

Taim is Ishy/Moridin. Taim killed Asmo. The original "false dragon" Taim was an Ishy minion. Ishy supplied the channeling, but, unfortunately for Minion Taim, Ishy had to leave him high and dry in the middle of his battle with Bashere (Minion Taim was winning at that point) so Ishy could go deal with Rand at Falme. Minion Taim lost, the RA nabbed him, Someone sprang him, and Ishy/Moridin later killed him and assumed his identity. Ishy/Moridin could pass as Mazrim Taim for all the myriad reasons explained so well by the Taimandred faction. Add in LTT's reaction anytime Rand is near Taim plus that darkfriend Andoran lord who hurled chunks merely at the sight of Ishy/Moridin/Taim (who else evokes that kind of response in Randland???) and you have a very good explanation of the whole Taim mystery. Throw in Asmo's surprise and fear("you, no!")and I think it's impossible to find another theory that fits so many of the facts we know. Oh yeah, one more thing, shortly after Dumai's Wells, where Taim helped rescue Rand, Rand goes tearing off after Sammael. Ishy/Moridin/Taim was nearby to observe Rand's departure from outside Caemlyn with the Saldeans and he later shows up in Shadar Logoth in Moridin guise to help keep Rand alive for whatever purpose the DO intends. Go ahead, prove me wrong.

20

Stilicho: 2004-08-17

P.S. Don't forget Dashiva-gar was under Taim's command. Guess who is apparently in charge of all the resurected/mind-trapped FS...Ishy/Moridin. Just more fuel for the fire.

21

Callandor: 2004-08-17

**Ishy/Moridin could pass as Mazrim Taim for all the myriad reasons explained so well by the Taimandred faction.**

Moridin was not back until ACOS. How can he go to Andor in TSR - TFOH, and then join Rand in LoC, if he was dead until ACOS?

Go ahead, prove it.

**Minion Taim lost, the RA nabbed him, Someone sprang him, and Ishy/Moridin later killed him and assumed his identity.**

Ishamael died at the end of TDR; once again, how can he do these things, if he was DEAD?

It's amazing how well everything works out if Taim is Taim, and Taim was taught by Ishamael, and of course that Taim is evil.

22

Anubis: 2004-08-18

i doubt it. its overcomplicating what a much simpler explination could easily do

23

Tamin: 2004-08-18

Ishy/Moridin did not assume the guise of Taim. Remember when Taim was being led in to his audience with Rand? The guards swords where pressed into his back... this would dispel a weave of illusion. I think.

I would guess that Lanfear killed Asmo.

24

Callandor: 2004-08-18

**P.S. Don't forget Dashiva-gar was under Taim's command.**

Really?

**TITLE: Winter's Heart

CHAPTER: 22 - Out of Thin Air

"Kill him," the M'Hael had ordered before sending them to Cairhien, but he had been as displeased that they were found out as that they had failed. Far Madding was to be their last chance; he had made that as plain as polished brass. Dashiva had simply vanished. Kisman did not know whether he had run or the M'Hael had killed him, and he did not care.**

1. It's interesting to note that Dashiva did not follow with Kisman and co. to Taim. That was obviously part of their orders, to return with news.

2. It is very interesting, that not even a full page later, is Kisman's POV showing Moridin giving the exact same order. Why would he, if he was Taim?

**TITLE: The Path of Daggers

CHAPTER: 29 - A Cup of Sleep

Rand smiled at him, a hard feral smile. "Add Corlan Dashiva to your list of deserters, Taim. Next time I visit the Black Tower, I expect to see his head on your Traitor's Tree."

*"Dashiva?" Taim snarled, his eyes widening in surprise.* "It will be as you say. When you next visit the Black Tower." That quickly, he recovered himself, all polished stone and poise once more. How she wished she could read her viewings of him.**

3. It is VERY interesting that Taim is surprised that Dashiva would be added to the list of deserters. He went to Rand telling him of the Fab Four's betrayal (since he ordered it and knew they failed), but he is surprised Dashiva would be added. Why would he be if he ordered Dashiva?

25

Stilicho: 2004-08-19

Sigh. Callandor, Just because we didn't see Moridin until later doesn't mean Ishy had not been resurrected already. Your points all hinge on Ishy remaining dead and out of circulation until the first Moridin POV. That's unprovable. RAFO.

26

Stilicho: 2004-08-19

Callandor, I never said he was a good follower. Besides, since Dashiva-gar was not mind-trapped to my knowledge, why wouldn't he pursue his own ambitions when an opportunity presented itself? The FS always do when they have a chance.

27

Callandor: 2004-08-19

**Sigh. Callandor, Just because we didn't see Moridin until later doesn't mean Ishy had not been resurrected already. Your points all hinge on Ishy remaining dead and out of circulation until the first Moridin POV. That's unprovable. RAFO.**

Give me any proof of his existance, besides a "feeling", before ACOS.

**Callandor, I never said he was a good follower.**

And neither did I. As I said above, I believe Taim is evil, and TRAINED by Ishamael; not Ishamael himself before his death or Moridin after his transmigration.

Look, you assumed Taim ordered Dashiva. I gave you 3 points that go against it. Prove it away. The third is the one you will have to think about.

28

Stilicho: 2004-08-20

Callandor, no one ever assumed Taim had complete control of Dashiva. Just because you want something to be true doesn't mean it will be. I think your blinded by your desire to be right about Taim that you refuse to even consider any other points of view posted here. Then you follow up with quotes that are irrelevatn or unrelated to the issue at hand and claim that you have "proved" whatever theory you endorse.

On the other hand, I do agree with much of what you say in these posts, I just think you're a little too married to some ideas to consider implications beyond your theories. You may be correct in the end, but if the answers were as clear as you pretend, this website would not exist for discussion.
Again, giving you the benefit of the doubt, I will admit that there are many things about my theories that I cannot prove at this point. They are often based on inferences drawn from my reading of the books. However, your OPINION does not disprove anything and when you spin the "facts" to support your theory it is just OPINION.

29

Callandor: 2004-08-20

**Callandor, no one ever assumed Taim had complete control of Dashiva.**

Stop right there. You posted this:

**P.S. Don't forget Dashiva-gar was under Taim's command.**

**Then you follow up with quotes that are irrelevatn or unrelated to the issue at hand and claim that you have "proved" whatever theory you endorse.**

WHAT?!

You said for a fact that Dashiva was under Taim's control. I gave you quotes and 3 reasons for why it is a false statement. Those are QUITE relevent to the issue.

**However, your OPINION does not disprove anything and when you spin the "facts" to support your theory it is just OPINION.**

What spin? I lay cold solid facts at your doorstep. You don't like it, tough.

FACT: Taim was surprised Dashiva participated in the attack on Rand.

This goes DIRECTLY against your own assumption that Dashiva was under Taim's control.

I'm sorry, but you're dead wrong.

30

Stilicho: 2004-08-23

Taim being "in command" of Dashiva is not inconsistent with Dashiva pursuing his own goals/ambitions when presented with an opportunity. Your quotes only show that Taim did not have complete control of Dashiva. In fact, Dashiva could have disobeyed a direct order from Taim. No doubt a reckoning would have occurred had Taim caught up with him, but Dashiva's actions were entirely consistent with the constant infighting and manuevering the FS always engaged in (and were encouraged in by the DO).

31

Callandor: 2004-08-24

**Taim being "in command" of Dashiva is not inconsistent with Dashiva pursuing his own goals/ambitions when presented with an opportunity. Your quotes only show that Taim did not have complete control of Dashiva. In fact, Dashiva could have disobeyed a direct order from Taim. No doubt a reckoning would have occurred had Taim caught up with him, but Dashiva's actions were entirely consistent with the constant infighting and manuevering the FS always engaged in (and were encouraged in by the DO).**

If you are still saying that Taim is Moridin, and then post this, I'm sorry, but keep your facts straight.

Osan'gar is TERRORFIED of Moridin. He went barreling into the biggest OP battle since the AoL, on an order. You're telling me that he would go behind the single person who we know he is afraid of?

**TITLE: Winter's Heart

CHAPTER: 35 - With the Choedan Kal

Crouching again, he bit his lip. This forest was a very dangerous place, more so than he had expected, and nowhere for a genius. *But the fact remained that Moridin terrified him. The man had always terrified him, from the very beginning.* He had been mad with power before they were sealed into the Bore, and since they had been freed, he seemed to think that he was the Great Lord. Moridin would find out somehow if he fled, and kill him. Worse, if al'Thor succeeded, the Great Lord might decide to kill both of them, and Osan'gar as well. He did not care whether they died, but he did very much about himself.**

32

Stilicho: 2004-08-25

So, you're saying that Dashiva could not pursue any line of action that Ishy/Moridin would not have approved of, even in the AOL, because he was terrified of him? Hah! Your momma wears trolloc boots!

33

Callandor: 2004-08-26

**Sigh. Callandor, Just because we didn't see Moridin until later doesn't mean Ishy had not been resurrected already. Your points all hinge on Ishy remaining dead and out of circulation until the first Moridin POV. That's unprovable. RAFO.**

By the way, I'd still like to simplify this.

Ishamael died: Chapter 55, What Is Written In Prophecy, The Dragon Reborn.

Moridin, obviously Ishamael transmigrated, is first shown: Chapter 25, Mindtrap, A Crown of Swords.

Now, due to Moridin having the saa by then, he had to already be out beforehand (even more obvious since he had to be transmigrated, and didn't go from nowhere to accepting Moghedien's return). However, him being a true blue dedicated TP addict, the timing for him developing the saa can be rather quick, and even so is debatable since we specifically don't know how long it takes to first develop it (it's my own personal believe that the first proof of Moridin's existance is Jaichim Carridin's flashback, in Chapter 15, Insects, A Crown of Swords, to when he had orders implanted by Ishamael).

However, and this is the crutch of your facts (I'm being generous and not saying opinions), it is not my place to prove that Ishamael was dead until A Crown of Swords. A dense person would say he is still dead.

Obvious factor: first showing of Moridin is in A Crown of Swords. Hey, maybe he was dead until then. Just maybe.

I have the stance of Ockham's Razor on my side.

YOU have the job of proving to me, and a bunch of other people, of how Ishamael was not transmigrated into Moridin at around A Crown of Swords time, but instead was transmigrated almost as soon as he died.

So, as I said in an earlier post, prove away.

34

Callandor: 2004-08-26

**So, you're saying that Dashiva could not pursue any line of action that Ishy/Moridin would not have approved of, even in the AOL, because he was terrified of him?**

Yeah.

35

Zader: 2004-08-27

Callandor

I am not sure of the timeline from the end of TDR and ACOS (and I may be wrong here, but I thought it was at least six months). If the timeline is six months can the DO wait that long to transmigrate a soul to a different body. I thought there was a limited timeline for the transmigration to happen.

36

Stilicho: 2004-08-27

Callandor: 1) It's "Occam's razor" btw; 2) It's a FANTASY world, and the premise of Occam's razor (i.e. the simplest solution is the most likely) is of dubious worth in a fantasy construct; 3) Quit trying to dodge responsibility for your opinions-when you cannot disprove something, admit it and wait for any additional evidence to be provided by RJ; 4) you've made some good points, but you still haven't disproved the Taim/Ishy/Moridin theory; and 5) your momma dresses you like a dragkhar!

37

Callandor: 2004-08-27

**If the timeline is six months can the DO wait that long to transmigrate a soul to a different body. I thought there was a limited timeline for the transmigration to happen.**

The time from when Aginor and Bathamel die, till when they come back as Osan'gar and Aran'gar, is over a year, most likely more like a year and a half (TEoTW - LoC), and could even be even closer to two years.

38

Callandor: 2004-08-28

**If the timeline is six months can the DO wait that long to transmigrate a soul to a different body. I thought there was a limited timeline for the transmigration to happen.**

Forgot to mention. You are most likely refering to this interview at the Tor Q&A:

**Question:

There are many theories that attempt to create a connection of time duration to the transmigration of the dead Forsaken. Are there time and/or power constraints on the Dark One's ability to transmigrate souls?

Robert Jordan Answers:

There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern.

After the soul is secured, then a suitable body must be acquired and stripped of the (former) owner's memory and soul to make way for the favored one. By the way, what constitutes a suitable body from the Dark One's perspective is not that of the recipient. Certainly Aginor would never have chosen to be reincarnated in his, shall we say, less than imposing body, nor would the womanizing Balthamel have chosen to be reincarnated as a beautiful woman. It was only chance that Moridin ended up in a body that is young, fairly good looking and physically imposing. Those things simply don't matter to the Dark One. But the body has to be basically healthy and sound, and neither too young nor too old. After all, the Dark One wants his servants to be effective, and a body that meets those basic requirements is more desirable than one that doesn't. Since there is no stockpile of such bodies, the only way for someone to die and immediately be reincarnated would be a matter of pure chance. That is, the death occurred when a suitable body was on hand for some other reason.

There are a few other limits and constraints, but I won't go into them here, since I may want to use them in the books, and I would rather they come as a surprise if I do.**

RJ's mention of time constraints is relating to the capture of the soul. Said here:

*The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul.*

However time to put a soul into a body, there are apparently no time constraints at all (there could be, but RJ hasn't given any so far, so saying there are isn't correct).

Actually, the time delay is almost assured as RJ said:

**Since there is no stockpile of such bodies, the only way for someone to die and immediately be reincarnated would be a matter of pure chance. That is, the death occurred when a suitable body was on hand for some other reason.**

The Dark One doesn't store bodies specifically for transmigration, so he has to gather one. This takes time, so no Forsaken is transmigrated instantaneously. Making the prospect of Taim being Moridin even more slight (besides the already given evidence making it both redundant and pointless, if not outright wrong by supposed facts).

39

Callandor: 2004-08-29

**1) It's "Occam's razor" btw**

Check your dictionary (or simply dictionary.com). You will find both are correct.

** 2) It's a FANTASY world, and the premise of Occam's razor (i.e. the simplest solution is the most likely) is of dubious worth in a fantasy construct;**

Really? Hmm... I highly doubt that.

Example. In The Eye of the World, Moiraine sinks the ferry by using the One Power. Ah, but hey, we don't ~Know~ that, since no female channeler saw it, and saw the weaves. So how do we know? Well, unless a magical small whirlpool came up at the exact instant, and destroyed the ferry, it is the MOST LIKELY, and SIMPLEST solution.

Plus, added to it, Rand got the chills/shivers. Ah, but hey, he could've been cold from the wind.

You're telling me that the simple solution in things is NOT the correct one, in a fantasy series, because it is a fantasy series? Wow. I really cannot state in words how utterly wrong that sounds.

**3) Quit trying to dodge responsibility for your opinions-when you cannot disprove something, admit it and wait for any additional evidence to be provided by RJ;**

Once again, what opinions? I've now given 4 reasons why Moridin was not back right away to be Taim, and you have yet to state one reason to explain away one (besides your baleful attempt to say Dashiva WOULDN'T be totally under Taim's control if Taim was Moridin).

Please, try to explain your stance, before proclaiming that I use my opinions on the matter, else Tam will become involved.

**4) you've made some good points, but you still haven't disproved the Taim/Ishy/Moridin theory;**

Give me counter-statements. Tell me where the ever so in-obvious magical reason succeeds, versus plain simplicity.