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ashere did it
by clarkkd: 2004-10-08 | 4 out of 10 (3 votes)
Previous Categories: Who Killed Asmodean
Who killed Asmodean?
I believe that Daverem Bashere killed Asmodean for his (that is Asmodeans') part in helping the False Dragon Mazrim Taim.
According to the “BWB”; the Forsaken where freed in either 997 or 998 NE (The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time, p. 52) We know that Be'lal went to Tear, Sammell went to Illian, Grendhal went to Arad Doman, Rhavin went to Camlyn, Messanana ended up in the Tower, I say that Asmodean went to Saldea.
Here Asmodean found Mazrim Taim and started to teach him how to channel nothing important like Traveling, or Compulsion, but enough to get by, this would also explain why Taim has knowledge or phrases of the Forsaken (so called Aiel (Taim QUOTE ON THIS) how to search out those that can channel (FLAME)).
Taim proclaimed himself in book two The Great Hunt on page ?, and from the BWB on page 279 we learn that this was the year 998 NE. I would say that he only proclaimed himself after two years of study under Asmodean (LOC QUOTE).
Taim was only defeated after the vision of Rand and Ishy, (QUOTE). Before this time he was the target of treachery (CoS), I don't believe that Taim used Compulsion, but rather Asmo did.
As the commander of the Saldean Army Bashere probably saw Taim and Asmodean together. Probably saw them kick the heck out of his army. Most likely did not like this at all.
Finally we hear that Taim has been captured and is on his way to TV to be gentled (TDR, P117), I would guess that Bashere follows. Taim does not stay captured but is instead freed by stealth (FOH p680). Either it was Cadsuana or Asmodean that freed him, for my theory we will say it was Asmodean.
Right after this I think Lanfear came and convinced Asmodean to go to the waste. Asmodean does change his plans if a better suits him (TSR p571, 668).
We know what happens next! Skip all the way to Andor.
If chapter 56 had been written in a different order as follows: Forget Morgase take Asmodean's tale and put it in front of Rand's, we would then see that Asmodean goes for wine, and Bashere comes with wine. Let me explain it a little better.
It is a question of timing. Bashere has free run of the palace (from his own words). We see him with a sealed pottery jar of wine and two goblets. If this wine was from his own stock would it not be more important to have it in a wine skin or in a cask instead of a fragile pottery jar?
While wandering the Palace he finds the wine cellar he thinks why not? Grabs a jar of the rack and two glasses, on his way out of the cellar he notices that a door starts to open, he then realizes that it is Asmodean. He either kills him with a sword, or with the ivory rod ter'angreal caped in a wolfs head. If the first is true it might be possible that Bashere had a guard of honor and told this guard to dispose of the body. The second method could be easy enough to pull of as well.
For the Ter'angreal bit look at the following: POD Ely POV p137, some ter'angreal do not need the user able to channel.
So then at the moment that Rand is distracted by a polite cough from one of his two maiden guards Asmodean leaves and goes to find wine, a little later he opens a door he sees Bashere, the man he had been fighting for some time he did not expect him to be there. (thus the You! Part) Bashere then proceeds to kill him (thus the NO! part).
Now maybe the relationship between Asmodean and Taim was not well known. Maybe Asmodean gave his name as Taim, (this would explain why Bashere doesn't recognize him).
Any way have fun
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2004-12-03
From the following quote, I can't imagine Bashere was in the Palace within six hours of the original battle. “Forgive my intrusion,” he said, “but there was no one to announce me.” His clothes might be plain and even travel-worn, but he had what appeared to be an ivory rod capped with a golden wolf's head thrust behind his sword belt. “I am Davram Bashere, Marshal-General of Saldaea. I am here to speak with the Lord Dragon, who rumors in the city say is here in the Royal Palace. I assume that I address him?” For an instant his eyes went to the glittering Dragons twining red-and-gold around Rand's arms." In fact, this quote suggests Rand is already situated on the throne, so I don't think you can tie the wine comment by Asmodean and Bashere having wine as tightly as you would like.
Oatman: 2004-12-03
I agree that Taim was trained by Asmo, however I think it was more likely Taim who killed him, to stop Asmo leaking the information that he was a DF, as well as to punish him for changing sides.
Callandor: 2004-12-04
**Here Asmodean found Mazrim Taim and started to teach him how to channel nothing important like Traveling, or Compulsion, but enough to get by, this would also explain why Taim has knowledge or phrases of the Forsaken (so called Aiel (Taim QUOTE ON THIS) how to search out those that can channel (FLAME)).**
Asmodean has never used this phrase. Only Ishamael/Moridin has used this exact turn of phrase.
**Taim proclaimed himself in book two The Great Hunt on page ?, and from the BWB on page 279 we learn that this was the year 998 NE. I would say that he only proclaimed himself after two years of study under Asmodean (LOC QUOTE).**
Nitpick: The Forsaken were still sealed in The Eye of the World; Aginor and Balthamel were the first freed (Ishamael of course was already freed; he's an exception).
All the othe Forsaken were freed later on after this. There is no way that Rand spent 2 years in Shinear between The Eye of the World and The Great Hunt; at most it was a couple of months.
**Finally we hear that Taim has been captured and is on his way to TV to be gentled (TDR, P117), I would guess that Bashere follows. Taim does not stay captured but is instead freed by stealth (FOH p680). Either it was Cadsuana or Asmodean that freed him, for my theory we will say it was Asmodean.**
Cadsuane?! Why would she free Taim? She went on the hunt to capture him, and never did.
**While wandering the Palace he finds the wine cellar he thinks why not? Grabs a jar of the rack and two glasses, on his way out of the cellar he notices that a door starts to open, he then realizes that it is Asmodean. He either kills him with a sword, or with the ivory rod ter'angreal caped in a wolfs head. If the first is true it might be possible that Bashere had a guard of honor and told this guard to dispose of the body. The second method could be easy enough to pull of as well.**
Nitpick that people always miss: We do not know if Asmodean actually did get to the wine celler. He could've been in any other room in the Palace.
**So then at the moment that Rand is distracted by a polite cough from one of his two maiden guards Asmodean leaves and goes to find wine, a little later he opens a door he sees Bashere, the man he had been fighting for some time he did not expect him to be there. (thus the You! Part) Bashere then proceeds to kill him (thus the NO! part).**
How? Asmodean maybe a pathetically weak channeler, but he is still a channeler. Rand shows Bashere himself was given a demonstration about how fast the One Power is. Asmodean should be able to stop any attack to him by simply weaving a wall of Air in seconds.
jason wolfbrother: 2004-12-04
one problem directly from your post. you said
**According to the “BWB”; the Forsaken where freed in either 997 or 998 NE (The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time, p. 52)**
then you said this
**Taim proclaimed himself in book two The Great Hunt on page ?, and from the BWB on page 279 we learn that this was the year 998 NE. I would say that he only proclaimed himself after two years of study under Asmodean (LOC QUOTE).**
if Asmodean was not free until 998 then how could he spend two years teaching Taim and then have Taim proclaim himself two years later in 998? even if it was early 997 when they were freed. and Asmodean ran straight to Saldaea, found Taim that same day, and taught him for two years, that is still early 999, not 998. The math doesn't add up.
Second problem is still the quick death that Asmodean died. How did Bashere (a known non-channeler) kill Asmodean (a shielded channeler, but able to channel enough to hold someone or something in air) ???
third point that bears pointing out. and it has repeatedly been overlooked by many people so don't feel bad ;)
Asmodean was looking for the wine pantry. He was killed before he found it. The wine that Bashere brought to Rand was from a wine pantry. So obviously he found it, or a servant brought it to him. Asmodean was not in a wine pantry when he died. He was looking for one.
a dragonburned fool: 2004-12-07
If I'm remembering correctly, just before Bashere enters with the wine, Rand looks down the window and sees Mat, Aviendha and Asmodean. I.e. (IIRC again) Bashere is with Rand in the time when Asmodean meets his death. Isn't it alibi for Bashere?
If Bashere knows about Asmodean's connection to Taim, he would either 1. know that Asmodean can channel, or 2. he doesn't suspect such thing. Case #1 is not so likely because Taim allways claims to be the only channeler in his false-dragon future except some poor guy, who became crazy quite fast and was killed. In case #2 Bashere would rather try to capture the Taim's companion or make him somehow else give out the location of Taim. A Taim's companion in the palace would be too good a source of information to kill him.
clarkkd: 2004-12-07
Callandor
"Cadsuane?! Why would she free Taim? She went on the hunt to capture him, and never did.“
Cadsuane, is an unknown and what we know of her all she says was that she went hurrying off to find Taim.
Callandor
“Nitpick that people always miss: We do not know if Asmodean actually did get to the wine celler. He could've been in any other room in the Palace.”
I didn't mean to imply this, what I meant was that on the way the two just happen to bump into each other.
Callandor
“How? Asmodean maybe a pathetically weak channeler, but he is still a channeler. Rand shows Bashere himself was given a demonstration about how fast the One Power is. Asmodean should be able to stop any attack to him by simply weaving a wall of Air in seconds.”
Thus the attempt to connect the ivory wolf head as a device of the one power as the murder weapon, and not a knife.
jason wolfbrother
“one problem directly from your post. you said
**According to the “BWB”; the Forsaken where freed in either 997 or 998 NE (The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time, p. 52)**
then you said this
**Taim proclaimed himself in book two The Great Hunt on page ?, and from the BWB on page 279 we learn that this was the year 998 NE. I would say that he only proclaimed himself after two years of study under Asmodean (LOC QUOTE).**”
I probably would count year one as 997, and then 998 as two.
I just wanted to point out that it did not have to be a channeler that did it.
Satin alEllien Moonsong: 2004-12-07
I like this idea but I'm still unconvinced. Unless Bashere had some kind of weave-dissipating ter'angreal (of which we have had no sign in any other situation) he would never have had a chance at killing Asmodean unless he caught him from behind or something. This is obviously not the case because of the much quoted line 'You? No!'.
All in all, i would say that this is a good idea, but that you need more proof. Keep trying
clarkkd: 2004-12-09
I lost my replies :(, I did not intened to mean that Asmodean was actually in the wine pantry upon his death, but was trying to conect his going towards it, and Bashere leaveing it.
For the math bit, count 997 as year one and 998 as year two.
clarkkd: 2004-12-09
timeing, that's just it. Rand is talking to the maidens, for a bit, nothing epic just idle chit chat. A little later Bashere is heard coming down the hall.
I would say that the moment Rand looked away is when Asmodean left. He opens a door (it doesn't really matter where.) Sees Bashere who just loaded himself up on wine. So on so forth
Callandor: 2004-12-11
**Cadsuane, is an unknown and what we know of her all she says was that she went hurrying off to find Taim.**
Ah, so she is a Black Ajah all along, even though all her points of view, and freed him on orders??
Cadsuane is hardly unknown. She's quite established as a Lightfollower.
**I didn't mean to imply this, what I meant was that on the way the two just happen to bump into each other.**
Which would seem impossible:
1. Bashere obviously found the wine pantry (or ~a~ wine pantry) before Asmodean died.
2. We do not know if Asmodean was in a wine pantry when he died.
Where is the timing for them to meet up?
**Thus the attempt to connect the ivory wolf head as a device of the one power as the murder weapon, and not a knife.**
Because it's an award to the Marshall General of Saldaea? Have to do better then that.
**I probably would count year one as 997, and then 998 as two.**
We know The Eye of the World started on Winternight 998 NE. Rand's birthday is the only set one of the Ta'veren, since it is a very important day, and we know how old Rand was at the start of the Eye of the World (and the day, of course -- Winternight).
The Forsaken were not freed by then, so again, timing issues.
**I would say that the moment Rand looked away is when Asmodean left.**
You have no chance of trying to sway me away from the events happening chronologically as perscribed by the POVs. As far as we know, Asmodean left Avi and Mat after Rand finished talking to Bashere.
clarkkd: 2004-12-14
I like my theory so I will responed!
Cadsuane, was she on her way to capture Taim or to free him? From book two there is a bit about how Taim was freed with stealth in the night, so what if Cadsuane freed him?
clarkkd: 2004-12-15
Cadsuane, I agree that she is a light follower, but she might have tried to set Taim free, because she thought him to be the true dragon reborn.
as for the chronologic order of events their are plenty of other POV that flip flop, look at the fight between rhavin and rand, we just happen to get Nyn POV as well. Just because things are written in a certain order does not mean that they happened in that order.
clarkkd: 2004-12-15
In the BWB it states that the year most agree that the forsaken where freed was either 997 or 998. I realize that there are errors on purpose. I don't think that we should dissmiss the quote. I agree that aginor and balthamel... where among the first freed, but were they freed right when Rand and company got to the Eye?
clarkkd: 2004-12-15
Tamyrlin's Response:
From the following quote, I can't imagine Bashere was in the Palace within six hours of the original battle. “Forgive my intrusion,” he said, “but there was no one to announce me.” .....In fact, this quote suggests Rand is already situated on the throne, so I don't think you can tie the wine comment by Asmodean and Bashere having wine as tightly as you would like.
********************************
There is hardly anyone in the castle, Rand, Mat, Avhienda, Asmodean, and two maidens (who don't want to be there.)
With out knowing how big the palace actually is there is no way to find the time it would take to enter the palace, go down to the wine cellar, pick out a choice wine, find two goblets, start to head up to the main room, quickly dispose of Asmodean, and get back up to the main audiance chamber to interupt Rand and his guards from their polite chat.
yet there is nothing to say that it couldn't happen :)
There is an instance when Asmodean lifts a goblet and floats it to rand, I can't remember if it says how dificult it was for him to do so, also Rand orders Asmo, to fill himself "as much as he can hold" Rand comments on this I can't remember what the exact phrase is.
clarkkd: 2004-12-15
** If I'm remembering correctly, just before Bashere enters with the wine, Rand looks down the window and sees Mat, Aviendha and Asmodean. I.e. (IIRC again) Bashere is with Rand in the time when Asmodean meets his death. Isn't it alibi for Bashere?**
If you re-order the POV's and have Asmodean leave at the same time Rand is distracted by a cough, add in the idle chit chat, and then the last bit about hearing boot steps then seeing Bashere then maybe not.
clarkkd: 2004-12-15
**Thus the attempt to connect the ivory wolf head as a device of the one power as the murder weapon, and not a knife.**
Because it's an award to the Marshall General of Saldaea? Have to do better then that.
**
Look at when Rand sends Bashere out to meet with the Sanchan, Bashere is decked out in all his spendor right, even down to the wolf head rod right?
So, what if the rod is more than decoration or a symbol of his rank?
What if he knew that he was going to meet people that could channel, and what if he brought a little extra protection!?
RJ seems so keep throwing this out there like: "hey look at me!"
Callandor: 2004-12-16
**Cadsuane, was she on her way to capture Taim or to free him? From book two there is a bit about how Taim was freed with stealth in the night, so what if Cadsuane freed him?**
~Sigh~
Why would Cadsuane free Taim? She is an Aes Sedai, she has the hobby (and then the duty) to hunt down male channelers and put a stop to them.
Why on earth would she free Taim?
Callandor: 2004-12-18
**Cadsuane, I agree that she is a light follower, but she might have tried to set Taim free, because she thought him to be the true dragon reborn.**
Ah, but not Logain? Not any other of the multitude of the male channelers that she herself has captured???
Unlikely.
**as for the chronologic order of events their are plenty of other POV that flip flop, look at the fight between rhavin and rand, we just happen to get Nyn POV as well. Just because things are written in a certain order does not mean that they happened in that order.**
Right. You're best option that you have, is the Asmodean left when Bashere was talking to Rand. Still no timing issues.
And with any other time flops, we have a base that shows where we can put it chronologically in order. With the sequence in question, we only have the books. What's more likely?
**I agree that aginor and balthamel... where among the first freed, but were they freed right when Rand and company got to the Eye?**
Yes, they were.
And, you agree they were the first freed, so where's this objection to Asmodean's training then?
Whatever date the BWB puts in, we KNOW FOR A FACT that the very first day in the Wheel of Time universe, was Winternight 998 NE. At the time, the only Forsaken "freed" was Ishamael.
**There is an instance when Asmodean lifts a goblet and floats it to rand, I can't remember if it says how dificult it was for him to do so, also Rand orders Asmo, to fill himself "as much as he can hold" Rand comments on this I can't remember what the exact phrase is.**
It's not remarked at difficult at all. Rand stops a dagger flung by Bashere, with a simple weave of Air; just like what Asmodean used for the goblet.
**If you re-order the POV's and have Asmodean leave at the same time Rand is distracted by a cough, add in the idle chit chat, and then the last bit about hearing boot steps then seeing Bashere then maybe not.**
And again, what gives you cause to re-order the POVs?
**Look at when Rand sends Bashere out to meet with the Sanchan, Bashere is decked out in all his spendor right, even down to the wolf head rod right?
So, what if the rod is more than decoration or a symbol of his rank?
What if he knew that he was going to meet people that could channel, and what if he brought a little extra protection!?**
But what about his secret decoder ring ter'angreal, that wards him invisible??
You have done absolutely nothing but throw a random idea out in the open. You have no proof what so ever. What else is there, besides, "well, what ~IF~ such and such happened." Rand could've had a 5 way around the world before leaving the Two Rivers with Moiraine and co. but since it's not in the books, it's highly unlikely it happened.
Odds are far in favor of the most obvious thing: that Bashere's staff is nothing but decoration.
Final note: you can respond to multiple replies, in one reply.
ilgross: 2004-12-18
The idea that the wolf head is some sort of anti-channeling weapon is ludicous.
This is absolutely no backing for it.
damane: 2004-12-18
It was Graendal. I'm not going to get into the why, because there's plenty of theories on that.
Now I'm going to say why this theory just doesn't hold for me.
First of all, and most importantly, Asmodean was disguised as a gleeman, remember? How the hell would Bashere not only know about his connection to Taim, but also what his disguise was? Second of all, what you're theory states implies that Bashere would also know of Asmodean's connection to Rand – why would he want to go near the Dragon Reborn when he's befriending Forsaken? In order for that to work, he would also have to know of Asmodean's shield and the deal between him and Rand.
Next, as soon as he stepped into the room, “the blood drained from his face.” It takes a lot to disconcert Asmodean. When Rand started speaking like Lews Therin, he makes an “uncoordinated” note. Why would the sight of seeing Bashere there give him surprise? The man is just a man, after all. It's not like it would matter if Bashere spilled the beans about him and Taim; Rand wouldn't give two wits about it.
I'm not going to nitpick, like saying that Bashere should not have been slinking around in a newly conquered castle, but I just thought of mentioning the broader picture of things. It just doesn't make any sense.
clarkkd: 2005-01-12
I guess I'm to stubborn to let it go!
1. The only forsaken freed where Aginor and Balthemael?
Others had to of been freed at this time. FROM BOOK1, "where bound... Some of us are bound no longer...Like Ishameal we walk the world again..."
Aginor staes himself that ~SOME~ where freed he does not included Ishamael in this.
BOOK TWO: Lanfear follows Rand all through book 2 posing as Salene. Well at the start of book two only 1 seal has been broken. One seal is in Domons Hands (which is then given to Turuk) and Turuk has another. These two seals where not broken until the end of the book.
2. Aginor and Balthamael were freed at the exact moment the Heroes left the cave leading to the Eye of the World?
Then why in book one does Aginor say "I have found you at last."?
How is it that Aginor knows Ba'alzamon's wishes for Rand: "[He] will give reqards beyond mortal dreaming..."?
If Aginor had just arrived from being freed how is it Ba'alzomon knows of it? ("I thought Aginor's greed would over come him.") " Screamed a curse at Aginor."
3. Order of the book is set and can't be changed. From BOOK FIVE chapter Pale Shadows, this section could have been written and in a different order, it does not change what happened, it just tells the story from a differant perpective. AS can chapter seven. And so can the last chapter, it would change nothing that happened.
All that changes is the conclusion that could be deducted.
4. Happenstance: Bashere and Asmodean ~Just~ happened to bump into each other huh?
Callandor I paraphrase you from your Lanfear did it post: Rand is Taveran he twists chance, it would be very fesable for this to happen!
and Happy New Year!!!!!!!!!!!
Callandor: 2005-01-13
**Others had to of been freed at this time. FROM BOOK1, "where bound... Some of us are bound no longer...Like Ishameal we walk the world again..." **
Yes, now add the context to show the mistake you are making by putting those elipses in.
**TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 50 - Meetings at the Eye
"Were bound." Aginor smiled; his yellowed teeth had the look of fangs. "Some of us are bound no longer. *The seals weaken, Aes Sedai. Like Ishamael, we walk the world again, ~and soon the rest of us will come.~* I was too close to this world in my captivity, I and Balthamel, too close to the grinding of the Wheel, but soon the Great Lord of the Dark will be free, and give us new flesh, and the world will be ours once more. You will have no Lews Therin Kinslayer, this time. No Lord of the Morning to save you. We know the one we seek now, and there is no more need for the rest of you."**
Aginor and Bathamel were the first freed of the Bore due to the seals weakening (since Ishamael was already out on one of his cycles), and only freed a very shot time before Rand an co. arrived at the Eye. No other Forsaken were freed at this time.
**BOOK TWO: Lanfear follows Rand all through book 2 posing as Salene. Well at the start of book two only 1 seal has been broken. One seal is in Domons Hands (which is then given to Turuk) and Turuk has another. These two seals where not broken until the end of the book.**
Uhh, yeah? And...?
You have been saying that Asmodean had trained Taim two years before he proclaimed himself; IE: two years before around the end of the Eye of the World and the start of The Great Hunt (it's unclear whether it is actually Taim that is the trouble in Saldaea, even though I believe he is, and he is first mention as proclaimed in TGH). So two years or so before the Forsaken were every remarked as free.
Where is your great point with this? You have done absolutely nothing but try to squeek by facts.
FACT: As of 998 NE there was one Forsaken freed - Ishamael.
FACT: Until Aginor and Bathamel were freed, only Ishamael and them were free -- no other Forsaken were freed.
You're timing issues are dramatically off, and you are simply ignoring known facts.
My wording may have been off on your second point, but Aginor and Bathamel weren't bathing in the Shayol Ghul sun throughout the Eye of the World; they were imprisoned.
**3. Order of the book is set and can't be changed. From BOOK FIVE chapter Pale Shadows, this section could have been written and in a different order, it does not change what happened, it just tells the story from a differant perpective. AS can chapter seven. And so can the last chapter, it would change nothing that happened.**
The order of the chapters progression is only changed if there are events we ~know~ took place before previous ones.
Example: we know the events in WH overlap with events in TPOD; the chronlogical order is off and we know why.
But we do not re-order any dang event that ever happened.
With Asmodean's demise there is no references for the placing of when Asmodean left, since he was there when Rand looked away and then never seen by Rand again. You are just throwing out "change the order and it works!" without any basis for it. There is no reason to change the order of events, because we have no benchmarks to show that some event took place after Asmodean left and before Bashere arrived. What we have to do is take the events as they occur in the books; Bashere arrives, and then Asmodean is killed.
**4. Happenstance: Bashere and Asmodean ~Just~ happened to bump into each other huh?**
No, see, Bashere was with Rand, when Asmodean left.
Aiel Finn: 2005-01-14
Slightly off topic, but I think that Lanfear may have been partially free for a little while longer due to her use of T'A'R.
clarkkd: 2005-01-14
So the Forsaken are freed when the seals are week not broken? Even though Lanfear was loose before the other two seals where even known to be weak. (which I poorly tried to explain earlier.)
The context of the snipets, does not prove or diss prove that they where the only ones freed. All it states is that they where the only ones that showed up. (Just to help you out, don't forget the part where Moiran states "If others where free they would have shown up as well." or some such.)
We know that Bashere is with Rand. We easily dismiss the fact that the entire last chapter is all happening at !!!!ONCE!!!!!!!! not individule segments that are cronological in order. These are basically CUT SCENES to show us what happens all with in the same time frame. Yet there are enough gaps to put Bashere with in Asmodeans pressance.
My theory was not to specifically to prove that Asmodean trained Taim, it was to show that the last chapter of the Fires of Heaven allowed for enough time to have Bashere with a little help of Tavern Twist bump into Asmodean.
Now usually one needs a reason to kill some one. I tried to explain that with Asmodean helping Taim out, Here is the only part that Can not be shown in the text of the books.
Seeing as how People have completely ignored the BWB as saying that the forsaken where freed in EITHER 997 or 998 I thought I would try and stick with the main point of Bashere killing the Forsaken.
clarkkd: 2005-01-14
Known Facts? Have I missed an intervies or question of the week that says specifically that Aginor and Balthemael where the only ones free?
Ishamael: Never held doesn't count.
Aginor: freed AFTER the first seal was broken.
Bethamael: freed AFTER the first seal was broken.
Lanfear: Most likely to have been freed AFTER the first seal.
Asmodean: UNKNOWN could have been freed AFTER the first seal
Rhavin: AFTER the second seal
Sammeal: AFTER the second seal
Be'lal: AFTER the second seal
Grendal: AFTER the second seal
Messana: AFTER the third seal
Damendred: AFTER the third seal
Semiraghe: AFTER the third seal
Mogy: AFTER the third seal
I don't see how the where released when the seals where weak?
Anubis: 2005-01-16
heres a problem. lords do not fetch their own wine. they have servants. the servants get the wine, and bring it to them.
bashere more then likely intended the wine to be an ice breaker, so him and rand could build some trust. i cant imagine bashere being the kind of person who would kill somebody stealthily. just look how he responded to perrin and falie.
Callandor: 2005-01-17
**So the Forsaken are freed when the seals are week not broken? Even though Lanfear was loose before the other two seals where even known to be weak. (which I poorly tried to explain earlier.)**
?
Lanfear was freed when one seal was broken. That event took place around the time of the incident at the Eye. What's the problem with this?
**The context of the snipets, does not prove or diss prove that they where the only ones freed. All it states is that they where the only ones that showed up. (Just to help you out, don't forget the part where Moiran states "If others where free they would have shown up as well." or some such.)**
Ah, yes, because Moiraine, being the person so involved in Shadow plots, knows exactly the conditions of the Bore.... Right.
Look, do you know the breakdown (the very rough one that exists) of how the Forsaken were placed? Here's the breakdown:
1. Ishamael - on a cyclic/pretty scheduled exit from the Bore (near as can tell 40 years for every 1000 or so).
2. Aginor and Bathamel - the closest Forsaken to the real world. RJ puts them as almost wraiths that can see all over the world, listen in, but not interact. This is perfectly in line with Aginor's explaination (along with the idea that they are the first freed).
3. Just about every other Forsaken - buried too deeply in the Bore to be released until the first seal was destroyed. This is very evident because there are absolutely no other Forsaken-like actions outside of Ishamael, Aginor, and Bathamel in The Eye of the World, and information from them acts as a barrier to any being freed before time (as I am trying to explain to you in simple terms).
4. Lanfear - Lanfear seems to be the very last freed since she was buried very deep in the Bore (she experienced a dreamless sleep, compared to Aginor's experience, and her beauty was intact, compared to both Aginor and Bathamel).
**Yet there are enough gaps to put Bashere with in Asmodeans pressance.**
Once again, on what basis? What references are there to even begin to suspect of changing the order? The only reason you have given is "it works that way." The Graendal theory works if she was in Caemlyn too, but just because it makes it work doesn't mean it should be that way or it occured that way.
**My theory was not to specifically to prove that Asmodean trained Taim, it was to show that the last chapter of the Fires of Heaven allowed for enough time to have Bashere with a little help of Tavern Twist bump into Asmodean.**
.... And Bashere killed Asmodean because he trained Taim, a reason you specifically given, and the motive. See, you have to prove one to give reason for the other; you failed at both.
**Seeing as how People have completely ignored the BWB as saying that the forsaken where freed in EITHER 997 or 998 I thought I would try and stick with the main point of Bashere killing the Forsaken.**
1. We know the beginning of the series in on Winternight 998 NE - very, very well established fact.
2. Only Ishamael was freed then, since obviously the conflict at the Eye was not the first incident.
**Have I missed an intervies or question of the week that says specifically that Aginor and Balthemael where the only ones free?**
Could very well be that you missed the parts that show they were the closest to the Bore. Here's a quick example:
1. The quote that has been given:
**TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 50 - Meetings at the Eye
"Were bound." Aginor smiled; his yellowed teeth had the look of fangs. "Some of us are bound no longer. The seals weaken, Aes Sedai. Like Ishamael, we walk the world again, and soon the rest of us will come. *~I was too close to this world in my captivity, I and Balthamel~, too close to the grinding of the Wheel,* but soon the Great Lord of the Dark will be free, and give us new flesh, and the world will be ours once more. You will have no Lews Therin Kinslayer, this time. No Lord of the Morning to save you. We know the one we seek now, and there is no more need for the rest of you."**
Too close being, nearest to the surface of the Bore.
2. Interviews:
**Question:
If the Forsaken were sealed away in Shayol Ghul since the Age of Legends, with no contact with the outside world, wouldn't they be speaking the Old Tongue when they woke back up? How did they learn the Common Tongue?
Robert Jordan Answers:
They still do speak the Old Tongue among themselves, ~but the first two who were freed, Aginor and Balthamel, had been held very near to the edge of the sealing,~ the reason they were so visibly affected and twisted while the rest came out whole and healthy, and they were very much aware of what had gone on in the world outside. You might say they had floated in limbo while watching three thousand plus years roll by, with the ability to zoom in.**
That interview goes on for a bit as well, but the point I'm making is in the part given (and says it OUTRIGHT).
3. More interviews:
Go to http://www.dragonmount.com/Interviews/
2003-04-23.php
And listen to RJ say so in the Budapest interview(s).
**Ishamael: Never held doesn't count.**
He was, just spoaradically.
clarkkd: 2005-02-07
Let me re-gather, regroup, etc.
Daverem Bashere Killed Asmodean.
Questions that need to be answered.
1. When where the Forsaken freed?
2. Where they freed when the seals where weak or broken?
3. What order where they freed in?
4. Why where they freed in that order?
5. Where did they go once freed?
6. What did they do once there?
7. What is the time frame of the books?
8. What is the difference between a Cut sceen and Chronological order?
9. Who did the Forsaken interact with?
10. What facts are there?
11. What do I agree with?
Answers
1. in 997 or 998 NE BWB p52
2. After they where broken, Rhavin, Sammeal, and Be'lal did not make an appearance until after seals 2 and 3 where BROKEN at the end of The Great Hunt which ended at the end of Autumn 998. How do we know check Basil Gils speech in the Dragon Reborn with Mat and Thom, also read Moraine when she tracks Rand to Illian.
Ishmael was never fully held, there fore he cannot be used as an example of how the other forsaken are freed. He is the exception to the rule not the rule itself.
3. We know exclusively that Aginor and Belthemael where the FIRST freed. We do not know that they where the ONLY ones freed.
Ishmael: Never held, that is “fully” held. NO kidding it was cyclical.
Seal one broken in the eye of the world. When it was broken we don't know. It was broken by the end of the book.
Seals 2 and 3 where intact and healthy all through book one and most of book two. They did not break until the end of the Great Hunt.
order
Belthameal
Aginor
Lanfear
Asmodean
Rhavin, Sammeal, Be'lal, Grendal
Messana, Damendred, Semiraghe, Moghedien
4. Belthameal: He was the closest held, the worst for wear, most likely the very first freed.
Aginor: Held just behind Balthemeal, besides there is way too much text that says so.
Lanfear: She is the very next forsaken we see. While not proof it is most likely.
Asmodean: You got me know proof :P
Rhavin, Sammeal, Be'lal, and Grendal, The only ones who took over nations, the first three all mentioned to have appeared at winter. Just after the seals where broken.
5. We know what happens(personalities) to the Forsaken after they where freed.
Asmodean: Goes from plan to plan. (He is the only one that matters for this theory)
6. Asmodean: we know for sure that he was captured by Rand. Nothing else.
7. Eye of the world: starts winter 998NE
Great hunt start 1 mos., after the end of book1 Spring.
The Dragon Reborn: starts winter
So on so forth...
8. A cut seen is used to show the Audience two events that are happening at the same time.
Chronological: Arranged in the order of occurrence.
So? I think that the end of book 5 is not chronological, but shows us events that are happening close at hand.
9. Asmodean: travels in the waste and is captured and dies. He does not use Mask of Mirrors to hide his appearance by the way.
10. Fact: (something said to have occurred or supposed to be true.)
1. The series starts with winter night 998NE.
2. Ishmeal was out on one of his cycles
3. The seals where broken as such book one 1 seal, book 2 two seals.
4. The forsaken with the exception of Ishmeal where only freed after the seals where BROKEN.
5. The FIRST freed where Aginor and Belthemel.
6. They where not the only ones freed.
7. Asmodean went from plan to plan.
8. Relating to #1 above. The story starts with winter night, yet there is still a history before this point.
9. No where does it state that the Forsaken where freed at the instant that Rand exited the Cave of the Eye.
10. RJ is very careful in his wording he says “first” never “only”. Does he imply this or is it inferred by readers(don't bother arguing this point!)
11. Context must be maintained when looking at the books.
12. Aginor and bethameal where searching for rand.
13. They have been searching for an unknown amount of time.
11. Ishmeal was never fully held; he constantly shows up in “history” as an advisor most notably to hawking, and many of his successors, he helped with the down fall of Malkier, He punished the Black Ajah for murdering Amyrlins.
Aginor and bethameal where the first freed. They ignore Ishmeal as ever being fully held, they where to close to the world. They where physically destroyed.
Now Aginor by using the well of pure sadin located at the eye of the world was able to either use mask of mirrors (which I doubt) to “restore” him to his former self or we can take it for what is says that by using it he was repairing his body.
Well then let's look at what Aginor says.
“I have found you at last.”
AT LAST? AT LAST?!
So you're telling me that we just ignore this statement from Aginor and go straight to “He just showed up! Just now he was freed from his prison and just NOW showed up”
Sorry it doesn't wash!!!
What else does he say?
“He guided us.”
They used Mat as a target, and it seems once he stopped moving they zeroed in on him much like a guide beacon.
Aginor also says.
“I am Aginor, and he is Balthamel. He no longer speaks with his tongue. The Wheel grinds exceedingly fine over three thousand years imprisoned.”
This points out why they are the worse for wear.
And...
“Were bound.”
No kidding your right in front of us!
“Some of us are bound no longer.”
SOME, let me say it again SOME, has always indicated more than two. As he says this he does not include Ishmeal in this in fact he says it in such a way as to say that he is finally free just like Ishmeal.
“the Seals weaken Aes Sedia”
He is not referring to them as his escape, but he shows his contempt for Aes Sedia.
“Like Ishamael, we walk the world again, and soon the rest of us will come.”
He tells them straight out Ish is free, and the rest will come nothing more nothing less. There are no definite numbers here. I just wish other would open their eyes to this!
Let's keep going?
The BWB while not as Authoritative as the books, or even the words of RJ, it is still a valid source of information. So why is it, that it has been dismissed? So what if the story begins on winter night 998. That does not negate the fact that there are other events happening or have happened!
IF we take what we are given and put it together we might get some FACTS straight.
The forsaken where freed in 997 or 998! I don't care if the story starts winter night 998. We have a source that tells us that the forsaken where freed in 997 or 998, except it!
997 could refer that Ish was the only one freed, and thus my points die and every one goes home happy!
Or
997 could refer to Aginor and Belthameal and others being freed. Remember the text FIRST freed?
So if they where free why did they not take part in Ishy's plan to catch Rand and the others? Aginor is content to let things unfold until he sees an advantage(Dashiva anyone?)
Besides if they knew Ishs' plan had to do with the Eye which would seem likely, why not let rand get there, then take the untainted Sadin away from Rand and be rapidly healed. Oh wait this did happen!
Lanfear tracked people through their dreams. If Ish seemed able to turn Rand then Heck why not stay out of it. This was much liker her plan anyway as seen in book 5.
Asmodean went his own way, he is described this way.
He may have gone to saldea. IF we say he was freed in 997 that would give him time to find Taim and train him. The flame resonance, the ability to survive 1 in 4 so on so forth. What ever!
Taim proclaimed himself in 998NE check the BWB
The Great Hunt Introduces Taim very early 1 month into Spring.
Logain is the main focus of book 1 (so far as false dragons are concerned). Which did not end until the beginning of spring.
So what does this mean.
Taim claims to be a very talented channeler, (which is a valid statement). He knows of /or uses compulsion, he knows the resonance check...)
Yet he only starts his main stream channeling in early spring of 998NE, and is defeated later that same year.
1. Asmodean goes to saldea.
2. He finds Taim
3. He may have convinced Taim to go to SG
4. Taim becomes a dread lord
5. Asmodean teaches or completes most of the channeling for Taim.
6. Taim watches and learns
7. Taim proclaims himself
8. He (or Asmodean) gets followers.
9. Bashere's friends set up a trap for Taim
10. It backfires.
11. Bashere looses battles.
12. vision appears Taim looses
13. Asmodean takes off
14. someone frees Taim
Questions to ask ourselves
How long does it take for Rand's conversation with the Maidens?
How long does Rand take in getting down from the window seal?
Does Rand race to the throne to pick at his soup?
What is the distance of the Hallway?
How long does Rand Reminisce about Lamelle?
Why couldn't [place name here] have done it? Well, They weren't there!
Don't search hard for answers, look at who was in town, and provide alibis for them!
How could Bashere a non-channeler kill Asmodean? Two answers.
Bashere had or has a devise of the one power that does not require the use of active channeling. NO one like this idea so I'll drop it for now.
Bashere has lightning fast reflexes.
Look at Lord of Chaos, Rand just finishes getting hit in the head during practice, Bashere wants to know why...
Remember bashere is sitting down one leg over the arm rest, he shifts his weight and then hurls a dagger hard and fast, rand channels and stops the dagger an arms length away.
Bashere and rand are more than one arms length away else there is no need to throw the dagger, (just stab him and be done with it.)
If Rand had been an eye blink slower he would have been dead.
Rand was on his guard. He is suspicious!
Asmodean like other forsaken suffer from ego. He does not consider a knife attack plausible, he also gets flustered easily. Rand makes a Lewis Therin slip and Asmodean (a Master Musician Folks!) stumbles over a cord badly!
So Asmodean while on his way to get wine opens a door (somewhere in the castle) sees someone he does not except gets flustered again and dies.
Bashere somewhere in the castle sees a door open. A seasoned battle leader, he remains cautious, seeing as how he is wandering alone in a castle not his and most likely hostile!@ Places his hand on his knife/sword.
Bashere recognizes Asmodean. Asmodean recognizes Bashere. Asmodean gasps. Bashere draws and strikes. Asmodean dies.
Hey now Bashere is a high ranking official wouldn't he have a body guard or a servant?
We don't know what he had. We know he went to Rand alone. This does not mean that he did not have someone with him.
Bashere w/servant:
“Hey hold the wine.”
Boor opens Asmo, dies. “Hey give me the wine take dead guy and get ride of him.” Bashere talks with Rand.
Wait 1 minute!
AS Bashere is talking with rand, rand says Taim is mine. Basher gets a little mad. Hmm.
Later Bashere is confused about who Taim is.
What if Bashere is not mad, but “oh sh**, I think I just killed the man that Rand wants to ... I think I'll just play along.”
Let me revisit a few things.
Who was in camlyn at the time of Asmodeans' death?
Asmodean
Rand
Aviendha
Mat
Enaila
Somara
Bashere
Aiel Masses
How do we know that these are the only ones around?
FoH: “I suppose none of the servants have come back,” Rand sighted. “One of the cooks, maybe? A Helper?”
“but there was no one to announce me.”
These are the people that must be looked at first and for most as suspects.
Asmodean didn't kill himself.
Rand was talking with Enaila, and Somara.
Aviendha was talking to Mat
Mat was talking to Aviendha
Bashere was alone in the palace with no one to account for his whereabouts. Until he talks to rand.
Aiel Masses out hunting Trollocs
Bashere is the only one who comes on scene with no escort, we don't know his wear abouts' for the length of a conversation.
Callandor: 2005-02-07
**Lanfear: She is the very next forsaken we see. While not proof it is most likely.**
**TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: Lanfear
When Lews Therin sealed the bore, Lanfear was buried very deeply in the sealing, held in a dreamless sleep beyond the reach of time. As a result the long years did not affect her beauty, or the intensity of her desire for power and for Lews Therin. Upon awakening to the world, she adopted the pseudonym Selene and sought out Rand al'Thor', believing him to be somehow connected with, if not the direct reincarnation of, Lews Therin. As a result she focused most of her energies on trying to win his heart and turn him toward her and the Shadow. She apparently was killed by Moiraine Sedai when both fell through a ter'angreal doorway in Cairhien.**
**Asmodean: Goes from plan to plan. (He is the only one that matters for this theory)
6. Asmodean: we know for sure that he was captured by Rand. Nothing else.**
However, Lanfear specifically says that he was doing nothing but hiding, until she brought him to the Waste:
**TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 50 - Traps
Abruptly the woman was on the bank, clothed in white, narrow waist belted in wide woven silver, silver stars and crescents in her midnight hair. The land rose slightly behind her to an ash grove on a mound. He did not remember seeing ash before. She was facing-a blur. A thick, gray, man-sized fuzzing of the air. This was all . . . wrong, somehow. "Risk," she sneered."You fear risk as much as Moghedien, don't you? You would creep about like the Spider herself. *Had I not hauled you out of your hole, you'd still be hiding, and waiting to snatch a few scraps."*
"If you cannot control your . . . appetites," the blur said in the man's voice, "why should I associate with you at all? If I must take risks, I want a greater reward than pulling strings on a puppet."**
**8. A cut seen is used to show the Audience two events that are happening at the same time.
Chronological: Arranged in the order of occurrence.
So? I think that the end of book 5 is not chronological, but shows us events that are happening close at hand.**
Even when RJ uses the cut scene technique between Rand and Mat in the battle of Cairhien, the overlap isn't present. Mat focuses on for a few hours, and he doesn't retell those same few hours, except by Mat or Rand mentioning what happened in them -- he doesn't show what happened in their POV.
And, yet again, if it were not for the striking differences in the daytime, we would have no reason to re-order them or that they occured at the same time.
You simply lack the reason to say "This needs to be put before this." If you had that, I'd be all for it -- but it's not there and you won't find it, and are simply saying "It works, it works!" through your own invention.
**9. Asmodean: travels in the waste and is captured and dies. He does not use Mask of Mirrors to hide his appearance by the way.**
No, which means someone must have seen him before without them.
**9. No where does it state that the Forsaken where freed at the instant that Rand exited the Cave of the Eye.
10. RJ is very careful in his wording he says “first” never “only”. Does he imply this or is it inferred by readers(don't bother arguing this point!)**
No because they weren't; they were freed approximately when Rand and co. arrived at the Eye. Not at Winternight about 2 months past, nor Asmodean 2 or 3 years earlier.
**he helped with the down fall of Malkier**
That I don't remember him doing, but I am not 100% sure (98% though...).
**So you're telling me that we just ignore this statement from Aginor and go straight to “He just showed up! Just now he was freed from his prison and just NOW showed up”**
At last could be just as Ishamael was doing -- searching for Rand and meaning that they found the Dragon after all this time (most of which they were sealed).
It's been an Age since they came in contact with the Dragon, so if that doesn't qualify for an "At last," I don't know what does.
**They used Mat as a target, and it seems once he stopped moving they zeroed in on him much like a guide beacon.**
Yes, and where is the reference for how long this took? If they began their search right when they were at the Eye, it takes a few moments to get there, I'll grant you that, but not even an hour.
**SOME, let me say it again SOME, has always indicated more than two. As he says this he does not include Ishmeal in this in fact he says it in such a way as to say that he is finally free just like Ishmeal.**
It's two seperate sentences. "Some of us are bound no longer. The seals weaken, Aes Sedai. Like Ishamael, we walk the world again, and soon the rest of us will come."
The "some" is implicating more then two freed -- funny that we know of 3 Forsaken freed at the time and no reason to assume more. Then they get more specific one sentence later, and name the other one who is also freed.
**The forsaken where freed in 997 or 998! I don't care if the story starts winter night 998. We have a source that tells us that the forsaken where freed in 997 or 998, except it!**
No because we know that only Ishamael was freed at the time the story started, which is Winternight 998 NE.
~THAT~ is fact.
**Besides if they knew Ishs' plan had to do with the Eye which would seem likely, why not let rand get there, then take the untainted Sadin away from Rand and be rapidly healed. Oh wait this did happen!**
Because they don't have to be in on Ishamael's plan to show up at the Eye.
**He may have gone to saldea. IF we say he was freed in 997 that would give him time to find Taim and train him. The flame resonance, the ability to survive 1 in 4 so on so forth. What ever!**
But he wasn't freed in 997 NE, and he was hiding in his own area trying to ride out the storm.
**Bashere has lightning fast reflexes.**
I don't care if you're the fastest person in the world -- the One Power is ~faster~!
**Rand was on his guard. He is suspicious!**
What are you talking about? Where is Rand being on his guard, against Bashere? Please, quote that before you even begin to tell me that Bashere was faster then the One Power.
**So Asmodean while on his way to get wine opens a door (somewhere in the castle) sees someone he does not except gets flustered again and dies.**
And a man strong enough and smart enough to survive the War of Power through competition with the strongest channelers in the world, dies by being flustered....
Righttt...
The entirty of your theory, is pure supposition.
1. We have no cause whatsoever to even begin to believe that Bashere recognized Asmodean or knew of him from any previous contact.
2. Since there is nothing at all (beyond wild supposition) Asmodean to Taim, and then Asmodean to Bashere -- there is no motive.
3. There is no way for Bashere to dispose of the body, especially in a place he did not know (and the fact that a body that is not totally destroyed, is still somewhere and visible for a bit while being moved).
4. There is no way in hell this is obvious from the moment Asmodean died for any of the above reasons.
5. There is no grounds whatsoever to even begin to think that the order of events in the chapter need to be moved around.
6. Why the heck would Asmodean be terrorfied of Bashere?
7. How is a conventional death, the "final death" that the Dark One says he suffered?
8. How does any conventional death, leave a person's words behind after they died?
And, still, you disbelieve set dates and facts.
clarkkd: 2005-02-08
**Bashere has lightning fast reflexes.**
I don't care if you're the fastest person in the world -- the One Power is ~faster~!
**Rand was on his guard. He is suspicious!**
What are you talking about? Where is Rand being on his guard, against Bashere? Please, quote that before you even begin to tell me that Bashere was faster then the One Power.
No because we know that only Ishamael was freed at the time the story started, which is Winternight 998 NE.
~THAT~ is fact.
The "some" is implicating more then two freed -- funny that we know of 3 Forsaken freed at the time and no reason to assume more. Then they get more specific one sentence later, and name the other one who is also freed.
It's been an Age since they came in contact with the Dragon, so if that doesn't qualify for an "At last," I don't know what does.
10. RJ is very careful in his wording he says “first” never “only”. Does he imply this or is it inferred by readers(don't bother arguing this point!)**
No because they weren't; they were freed approximately when Rand and co. arrived at the Eye. Not at Winternight about 2 months past, nor Asmodean 2 or 3 years earlier.
**he helped with the down fall of Malkier**
That I don't remember him doing, but I am not 100% sure (98% though...).
The entirty of your theory, is pure supposition.
1. We have no cause whatsoever to even begin to believe that Bashere recognized Asmodean or knew of him from any previous contact.
2. Since there is nothing at all (beyond wild supposition) Asmodean to Taim, and then Asmodean to Bashere -- there is no motive.
3. There is no way for Bashere to dispose of the body, especially in a place he did not know (and the fact that a body that is not totally destroyed, is still somewhere and visible for a bit while being moved).
4. There is no way in hell this is obvious from the moment Asmodean died for any of the above reasons.
5. There is no grounds whatsoever to even begin to think that the order of events in the chapter need to be moved around.
6. Why the heck would Asmodean be terrorfied of Bashere?
7. How is a conventional death, the "final death" that the Dark One says he suffered?
8. How does any conventional death, leave a person's words behind after they died?
And, still, you disbelieve set dates and facts.
Bashere is fast! Rand states this “If I had been an eye blink slower I would be dead.” I know Rand is luck, but if he had not been on his guard he would have died! His next statement a few weeks of knowing does not excuse this, I could strike you down...blah blah.
During his beatings from the WT AS don't trust never trust....
(watch the sarcasm right here) Ishmeal was not free he was only partially held, and was out on one of his cycles. Most likely he had been out for some time probably all the way back to the prequel. But this is really not important!
Some:(according to the dictionary : ) ) means up to ten. Not two, not three. I have always thought in these lines. Couple=2, few=3, some=handful.
At last (sarcasm coming) look at the context of the sentence(end sarcasm). “At last we have found you!” On going search. My take not budging! :)
Now it is approximately, earlier it was: right then!?
Malkier, Ish is bragging to Rand, “did you send luc to his death?”, look here for the implications that he brought this around.
Body problems? Ever watch Fried Green Tomatoes? <- That is humor not a point!
Obvious comes from this; Where is Bashere before he comes upon Rand?
Obvious eludes you because you refuse to bend. Let go of Lanfear did it.
I'm not asking you to reorder the events (though it helps to show my point). The last chapter was not written in chronological order! It was written so that we could know three separate events that happened all at the same time!
I did not say Asmodean was terrified, and by Asmodeans comments when he died we see he was not! YOU? Hey what are you doing here, I did not except you to be in the castle.
NO! Hey don't kill me.
You are confusing what the dark one said/meant. He cannot bring Rhavin back, He won't bring Asmodean back. That's okay lots of people have <- humor not a point!
Words hung, yep, Assuming for a moment that Bashere knew what he was doing as a soldier, he very likely knew what parts of the body would completely silence his victim from shouting out, convulsing.
I don't disbelieve set dates or “Facts” (though I use the term facts with the definition that I gave it above.)
Ishy was around on his latest cycle about 40 years of activity, with an unknown amount of “sleep”.
Balthamel was freed first.
Aginor was freed second.
They looked like walking dead because they where held so close to the surface of the bore.
Lanfear was out next because we see her next. She lost none of her beauty because she was held deeper then the rest.
Rhavin Be'lal, Sammeal, where definitely freed after seals two and three where destroyed at the end of book2.
Callandor: 2005-02-08
**Bashere is fast! Rand states this “If I had been an eye blink slower I would be dead.” I know Rand is luck, but if he had not been on his guard he would have died! His next statement a few weeks of knowing does not excuse this, I could strike you down...blah blah.**
First off, use breaks to make it more clear where you're talking and not quoting what others have said.
Second, please, quote anywhere in the scene where it shows Rand to be on his guard -- against Bashere.
**Some:(according to the dictionary : ) ) means up to ten. Not two, not three. I have always thought in these lines. Couple=2, few=3, some=handful.**
Great, now you want to show me what dictionary Robert Jordan was using, or ~his~ context for some.
Fact: Yes, some refers to more then two. We know of three Forsaken being free at the time of use. Three is more then two. Case closed.
**At last (sarcasm coming) look at the context of the sentence(end sarcasm). “At last we have found you!” On going search. My take not budging! :)**
Ok, and you're perfectly free to believe that. Only that the on going search you are so pushing for, has no date context to it, so their entire imprisonment can be counted as part of their search, hence the "at last."
Oh yes, and not budging.
**Malkier, Ish is bragging to Rand, “did you send luc to his death?”, look here for the implications that he brought this around.**
Quote the passage in entirety, directly from the book, with book name, chapter number (and page number if you want); not simply saying it. Or worse, going off memory and stating it as fact.
**Obvious eludes you because you refuse to bend. Let go of Lanfear did it.**
The person who states that they are not budging, is going to lecture me on letting things go?
Now that is funny.
**I'm not asking you to reorder the events (though it helps to show my point). The last chapter was not written in chronological order! It was written so that we could know three separate events that happened all at the same time!**
~Sigh~
This just isn't getting through at all is it?
1. Obviously for you're theory to work at all, Asmodean must be killed before Bashere met with Rand, or Bashere is breaking the laws of physics and is being in two places at once.
2. Going off that, there is absolutely no basis to even ~think~ of re-ordering the events of the chapter.
**I did not say Asmodean was terrified, and by Asmodeans comments when he died we see he was not! YOU? Hey what are you doing here, I did not except you to be in the castle.**
Excuse me?! Not terrorfied???? Have you read the quote?
**TITLE: Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 56 - Glowing Embers
He pulled open a small door, intending to find his way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine. One step, and he stopped, ~the blood draining from his face.~**
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.... He seems a little terrorfied, to PALE AT HIS MURDERER!
**You are confusing what the dark one said/meant. He cannot bring Rhavin back, He won't bring Asmodean back. That's okay lots of people have <- humor not a point!**
Read the quote (and I'll drive home the point for you):
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Message
THE CHOSEN DWINDLE, DEMANDRED. THE WEAK FALL AWAY. WHO BETRAYS ME SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH. ASMODEAN, TWISTED BY HIS WEAKNESS. RAHVIN DEAD IN HIS PRIDE. HE SERVED WELL, YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME. For an instant terrible anger filled that awful voice, and—could it be frustration? An instant only. DONE BY MY ANCIENT ENEMY, THE ONE CALLED DRAGON. WOULD YOU UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE, DEMANDRED?**
Which Forsaken betrayed the Dark One (or so everyone thought)? Asmodean. Not to mention what else is more final then the way Rahvin died, and being lumped together with Asmodean.
**Words hung, yep, Assuming for a moment that Bashere knew what he was doing as a soldier, he very likely knew what parts of the body would completely silence his victim from shouting out, convulsing.**
Oy, does no one get this point?
Asmodean's words still hung after he died; not after he couldn't say anymore words and then he died.
Words said -> death -> words fade.
**Lanfear was out next because we see her next. She lost none of her beauty because she was held deeper then the rest.**
Which here is a terrible thing to say. Lanfear was the 4th out, since she was held the deepest in the Bore, but the others came out later...
Right.
clarkkd: 2005-02-10
You missed most of my (dry) humor.
Actually I did separate my replies, the formatting didn't take.
Just to let everyone (not that anyone else has replied :) ) This is enjoyable not hair pulling.
Anyway,
I quote,
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Message
THE CHOSEN DWINDLE, DEMANDRED. THE WEAK FALL AWAY. WHO BETRAYS ME SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH. ASMODEAN, TWISTED BY HIS WEAKNESS. RAHVIN DEAD IN HIS PRIDE. HE SERVED WELL, YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME. For an instant terrible anger filled that awful voice, and—could it be frustration? An instant only. DONE BY MY ANCIENT ENEMY, THE ONE CALLED DRAGON. WOULD YOU UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE, DEMANDRED?**
Which Forsaken betrayed the Dark One (or so everyone thought)? Asmodean. Not to mention what else is more final then the way Rahvin died, and being lumped together with Asmodean.
I respond
Let me get this straight, Asmodean died the same way as Rhavin?(possible but unknown.) Thus the final death part.
WHO BETRAYS ME SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH. Asmodean, and Rhavin? If you are going to lump them together, then you must use the same reason for both deaths that of BETRAYAL! I don't see Rhavin as BETRAYING the DO!
Now I know that others will interpret this differently, but this is what I take this to mean: "THE CHOSEN DWINDLE," Used as a plot devise to catch the readers up on what happened in the last book (or books) or RJ's love of having his "most powerful bad guys" stating the obvious to the inferior. "THE WEAK FALL AWAY." This is probably the only sentence that actually applies to both forsaken.
“WHO BETRAYS ME SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH. ASMODEAN, TWISTED BY HIS WEAKNESS.” He was killed in someway, and because of his betrayal, the dark one will not bring him back.
Here we break the text and take the spot light off of Asmodean, and swing it over to Rhavin.
“RAHVIN DEAD IN HIS PRIDE. HE SERVED WELL, YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME.”
Look at the difference: The DO won't bring back Asmodean, He can't bring back Rhavin.
I quote
**Some:(according to the dictionary : ) ) means up to ten. Not two, not three. I have always thought in these lines. Couple=2, few=3, some=handful.**
Great, now you want to show me what dictionary Robert Jordan was using, or ~his~ context for some.
I respond
You missed my smiley face.
I put this here so you could see how I place “some”. More than 3.
I qoute
**At last (sarcasm coming) look at the context of the sentence(end sarcasm). “At last we have found you!” On going search. My take not budging! :)**
Ok, and you're perfectly free to believe that. Only that the on going search you are so pushing for, has no date context to it, so their entire imprisonment can be counted as part of their search, hence the "at last."
Oh yes, and not budging.
I respond
Context? Ok? Not “can” but “could”. Let me see, you're right there is no date i.e. no proof (wait for it)....for either view.
Of course Bashere would have had to kill Asmodean before he met with Rand. No it isn't getting through is it. YOU DON'T NEED TO RE-ORDER ANYTHING (though as a visual aid it helps to show it).
Here is the major point of the argument:
CH56 is written in chronological order VS., it was written as a cut scene which shows three separate events.
Once this issue is cleared up then we could move on. Until then this is a stopping point.
And you got me Asmodean was terrified! It's hard having to lookup everything by hand/memory.
Where was Bashere?
Tamyrlin: 2005-02-10
Clarkd...minor point, the DO, per an interview with Robert Jordan, cannot bring Asmodean back even if he wanted to. Asmodean is gone, returned to the wheel. There are two reasons why the DO could not bring him back even if he wanted to: first, Asmodean was balefired and second, Asmodean was cut off from the DO, so the DO was unable to grab his soul at death in order to transmigrate him.
clarkkd: 2005-03-09
I really would like to see the interviews.
Then...maybe...if I can get the last word in...I'll let this die :)