don't know, but it wasn't Moiraine
by Yaga Shura: 2005-02-22 | 5.7 out of 10 (23 votes)
Most of this stuff came from replies to the theory Asmodena's Killer Is Slayer, but it got off topic and there didn't seem to be any other theories posted that said this, so I decided to set it all out in it's own little theory.
Moiraine is one of those names that gets bandied around whenever Asmodean's death comes up. I admit it: she rocks. I understand why she is so popular. But all the evidence says no way.
Firstly, Moiraine, assuming the Finn's did not still and then re-emPower her, and assuming that she was not released in some other way, she is still bound by the Three Oaths. The important one is Oath number 3, as given in the BWB on page 298(ch.24): "never to use the one power as a weapon except against Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme defense of her own life or that of her Warder, or another Aes Sedai." When Asmodean dies, he isn't even threatening anyone. There is no way that he could be threatening Moiraine's life, she doesn't have a Warder, and ther are no other Aes Sedai around.
Okay, you say, maybe she didn't use the Power. Maybe she stabbed him, the way she did to the Darkfriend Merean in New Spring. As Tamyrlin said elsewhere, surely even Asmodena's "trickle" of Power would be enough to stop someone stabbing him. And before you say it, there is clearly not enough time for Moiraine to shield Asmodean and then stab him. It happens too fast.
Next comes the fact that Moiraine could attack him while unthreatened because he is a Forsaken. NO!!!!!!!! The Third Oath makes no mention of the Forsaken or Darkfriends, only Shadowspawn. And no, the Forsaken are not Shadowspawn. They are people who are sworn to the Shadow. For examples of how no Aes Sedai have ever been seen to attack a Forsaken unprovoked, see Moiraine killing Be'lal in TDR. If she could have taken him from behind, what's with the risk taking: attracting his attention, waiting for him to turn around. Come on, she isn't stupid.
Also, see ch. 35 of WH, where at no point do the Aes Sedai attack the Forsaken unprovoked. They don't even set raps like Rand did around Callandor in the Stone. All we have is Cadsuane's inverted roof shield. Clearly, the Forsaken are as protected from harm by the Third Oath as Joe-Schmoe Randlander.
Therefore, Moiraine could not have killed Asmodean. I hope this will finally put to rest the people who think Moiraine is a suspect.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2005-03-04
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
Alright, since that thread HAS gotten off-track, I'll allow this. And just to play the Dark One's advocate... How could Moiraine kill Be'lal if he wasn't directly threatening her?
2
Yaga Shura: 2005-03-04
"How could Moiraine kill Be'lal if he wasn't directly threatening her?"
He was. When he raises his hands, he is about to channel, with the most likely result of Moiraine being dead. Therefore, she is ale to use the power as a weapon to defend her life.
3
Bane Darkwulf: 2005-03-04
I believe you can include the Forsaken on the list of Shadowspawn, eventhough they are really human.
The Forsaken are the most powerful tool/weapon that the DO has aganst the world.
4
Callandor: 2005-03-04
** For examples of how no Aes Sedai have ever been seen to attack a Forsaken unprovoked, see Moiraine killing Be'lal in TDR.**
Moiraine attacks Aginor in The Eye of the World.
**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 50 - Meetings at the Eye
"Even Aginor seemed stunned. Then his head lifted, cavernous eyes burning with hate. "Enough! It is past time to end this!"
"Yes, Forsaken," Moiraine said, her voice as cold as deep winter ice. "Past time!"
The Aes Sedai's hand rose, and the ground fell away beneath Aginor's feet. Flame roared from the chasm, whipped to a frenzy by wind howling in from every direction, sucking a maelstrom of leaves into the fire, which seemed to solidify into a red-streaked yellow jelly of pure heat. In the middle of it Aginor stood, his feet supported only by air. The Forsaken looked startled, but then he smiled and took a step forward. It was a slow step, as if the fire tried to root him to the spot, but he took it, and then another.**
Moiraine did nothing when Lan was attacked beforehand (and that's hardly in last defense of his life), and Aginor and Bathamel never attacked her before she went for Aginor.
**Therefore, Moiraine could not have killed Asmodean. I hope this will finally put to rest the people who think Moiraine is a suspect.**
The biggest piece against Moiraine is simple lack of motive -- she has absolutely none. She knew who Asmodean was (no doubting that), however, she said in her letter to Rand that she knew it was necessary. She had no motive to kill Asmodean, since she knew how important he was for Rand.
5
bigjellybeans: 2005-03-05
I would bet my last dollar that Moiraine did not kill Asmodean. Moiraine was one of the smarter characters in the book. I think that she had seen that Rand would need a teacher, even if it was one of the forsaken. So I doubt she would kill the only person around at the time that can serve in teaching Rand in the use of the one power.
6
Yaga Shura: 2005-03-05
"I believe you can include the Forsaken on the list of Shadowspawn, even though they are really human"
That statement makes no sense. You can not be both human and shadowspawn at the same time.
7
scope: 2005-03-06
Aes Sedai are famed for being able to bend the first oath 'to speak no word that is not true' until breaking point. Why not the same for the third. If Moiraine considered Be'lal was so reprehensible and evil maybe she can justify his classification as shadowspawn.
I would of thought that the Aes Sedai would of considered this possibility when they came up with the oaths. They still knew of the Forsaken and knew that Tarmon Gaidon would eventually occur, why would they hamstring themselves against the greatest servents of the DO. If we looked through the White Tower enyclopedia, under shadowspawn we'd find Trollocs, Myrdraals, and the Forsaken.
8
Anubis: 2005-03-06
moirines life doesnt actually need to be in jeopardy for her to use the power to kill. she just needs to THINK that her life is in jepoardy. and confronting two of the forsaken is deffinatly a moment for, oh hey, i think my life is in jeopardy.
9
Yaga Shura: 2005-03-07
"I would of thought that the Aes Sedai would of considered this possibility when they came up with the oaths"
Aes Sedai are incredibly good at ignoring that which they do not want to see. And frankly, who wants to contemplate the Forsaken being free?
"**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 50 - Meetings at the Eye
"Even Aginor seemed stunned. Then his head lifted, cavernous eyes burning with hate. "Enough! It is past time to end this!" **
What kind of ending do you think a pair of Forsaken would be planning? The most sensible answer is death. The only logical method to assume for this is the use of the OP. And what is the only way to fight someone using the OP? With the OP. I would argue that Moiraine's life is directly threatened at this time, prior to her actually channelling.
10
Aiel Finn: 2005-03-07
I realize it may be a bit off topic, but would the 3rd Oath prevent a sister linked to an AM from attacking someone? If so, how would it happen? Would the sister take control back, or would the power wink out in her, or would she go comatose and die. Also what would happen in a circle where the man MUST be the one leading the circle?
11
Yaga Shura: 2005-03-07
"I realize it may be a bit off topic, but would the 3rd Oath prevent a sister linked to an AM from attacking someone?"
If she was in control, then yes, because the attack would be her decision. If he had control, then no, because she would effectively just be a passive cinduit for the flow of saidar.
12
Callandor: 2005-03-08
**What kind of ending do you think a pair of Forsaken would be planning? The most sensible answer is death. The only logical method to assume for this is the use of the OP. And what is the only way to fight someone using the OP? With the OP. I would argue that Moiraine's life is directly threatened at this time, prior to her actually channelling.**
No, it is not the last threat to her life ~yet~. However, she ~believes~ she is in danger. As Anubis said, all an Aes Sedai has to do, is believe they are in danger, and they can attack with the One Power. This is exactly why the Aes Sedai rush into Dumai's Wells instead of holding back like Perrin ordered -- so they could attack.
13
Yaga Shura: 2005-03-10
"No, it is not the last threat to her life ~yet~. However, she ~believes~ she is in danger. As Anubis said, all an Aes Sedai has to do, is believe they are in danger, and they can attack with the One Power. This is exactly why the Aes Sedai rush into Dumai's Wells instead of holding back like Perrin ordered -- so they could attack."
So then your point would be that Moiraine did not launch an unprovoked assault with the Power on one of the Forsaken? Thanks for the support ;)
14
Callandor: 2005-03-11
**So then your point would be that Moiraine did not launch an unprovoked assault with the Power on one of the Forsaken? Thanks for the support ;)**
No, my point is that she did. But to her mind, she had a reason for it. It was a truely unprovoked attack -- ~she~ and any other Aes Sedai interpret the evnts differently and can attack if they can convince themselves of it. This is the same way any Aes Sedai can knock Egwene out of the boat in CoT -- they either:
1. Convinced themselves she was a threat.
2. Knew they could save her from drowning and convinced themselves they weren't going to hurt her.
Or the third one is that they are Black Ajah (in which it's strange they didn't kill her outright, but there can be reasons for that).
You used the logic that since the Forsaken are not Shadowspawn, that Aes Sedai cannot kill them. Besides my opinion that any Aes Sedai could do this because of simple knowledge (one of the 13 most dangerous people in my vacinity, and one who could easily kill me -- why not?), I showed you that it is purely false: Moiraine could have killed Asmodean, if she beleived herself enough of a threat. However, this stands no reason at all, since Moiraine wrote specifically to Rand stating that she knew about Asmodean and understood what his reasons were.
So, yes, I am supporting your theory -- but not for the reasons you state.
15
maharbry: 2005-03-25
correct me if im wrong, but I believe stilling releases the three oaths much the same as the warder bond. It seems to me that the three oaths hold because of saidar just like the warder bond. Severing from the TS would break the three oaths bond, thus eliminating the need for her to be threatened. Not to mention the fact that the forsaken can use the dark one's "true source" (i forgot the real name) a fact which, IMHO makes them shadowspawn.
16
Aiel Finn: 2005-03-25
The question is, what is shadowspawn. We all know that trolocs, myddryal, grey men, darkhounds, drakagar, gholams, and tainted crows are. One must then ask, what do all of these have in common. I think that it is their link to the TP, to the DO. The main evidence for this is that they will not enter a steading except under great duress. The steading blocks all external supernatural powers from being touched within. This would make all the above shadowspawn uncomforable because they would be loose from thier master. If one follows this reasoning, then the Forsaken are also shadowspawn because they have this link to the TP even if theirs is a different sort that allows them to channel it.
17
Yaga Shura: 2005-03-25
Shadowspawn: spawn of the shadow: created by the shadow: created by the dark one or those who serve the Dark One.
This covers the trollocs myrdraal halfmen worms and the other known shadowspawn. It does not cover the Forsaken. They are not shadowspawn
18
monachetti: 2005-03-26
i'd have to agree that forsaken aren't shadowspawn...i could be wrong, but it's my opinion that shadowspawn seem to enter the pattern as part of the shadow, while the forsaken had a choice and joined the shadow. i suppose then that i don't think that gray men are shadowspawn either, cuz they give up their soul, don't they.
19
Anubis: 2005-03-26
Shadowspawn are the creatures that.... I want to say Aginor (im sick and my brain isnt working well) created using genetic engineering and the True Power. Ya know what... did he use the TP? I think so but i cant remember.
20
scion2: 2005-04-01
umm...yeah...Forsaken are Darkfriends....very important and powerful Darkfriends. But I agree, it can't have been Moiraine...she wouldn't kill Asmodean, she was too loyal to Rand.
21
JakOShadows: 2005-05-03
The forsaken are not darkfriends, because they chose to become a dreadlord at the time. It's like being a darkfriend. They aren't considered shadowspan because they made a conscious choice to fight for the DO. Using the true power is more of a mark placed on them, allowing them to use it. Like the mark placed on Alvarin, except used for a different purpose. To be a shadowspan, you have to be created directly for the DO.
22
Callandor: 2005-05-03
**To be a shadowspan, you have to be created directly for the DO.**
Using that definition, would you say that transmigrated Forsaken are Shadowspawn?
