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raendal killed Asmodean

by MatCauthon: 2005-05-02 | 3.95 out of 10 (20 votes)

Previous Categories: Who Killed Asmodean

I believe it was Graendal that killed Asmodean.

At the time that he died Aginor, Balthamel, Be'lal, Ishamael, and Rhavin were all dead. Lanfear had gone through the doorway with Moiraine so was either a captive or dead. Moghedien had been collored by Nynaeve.

This leaves Graendal, Sammael, Semirhage, Demadred, and Mesaana the remaining living and free Forsaken.

Of those five, there are only two that we can be sure knew that Asmodean was joined to Rand: Sammael and Graendal.

In The Fires of Heaven, in chapter The First Sparks Fell there was a meeting between Lanfear, Rhavin, Sammael and Graendal. The discussed Asmodean:

"'Are you certain Asmodean went over?' Sammael demanded. 'He never had the courage to take a chance before. Where did he find the heart to join a lost cause?'

Lanfear's brief smile was amused. 'He had the courage for an ambush he thought would set him above the rest of us. And when his choice became death or a doomed cause, it took little courage for him to choose.'"

I believe it to be one of the Forsaken since he knew his killer. He not only knew him/her, but had a reason for fear. The Fires of Heaven, Glowing Embers: "He pulled open a small door, intending to find his way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine. One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face. 'You? No!' The word still hung in the air when death took him."

I don't think anyone that couldn't channel would have caused him fear and he could have stopped them, even partially shielded. This means it had to be someone that could channel. There is no reason to believe that he had any dealings with the Black Ajah so that leaves the other Forsaken.

Another quote of interest comes in The Fires of Heaven, Glowing Embers right before his death: "Idly--but with a shiver, too--he wondered whether being reborn in this fashion made him a new man." It's possible that that shiver came from feeling a woman channel and not from his thoughts, although he may have been thinking hard enough not to realize the difference.

Also, since Graendal had dealings with Rhavin, she may have been keeping tabs on Caemlyn and if so, respond quickly after Rhavin's death.

So Graendal had the knowledge of what Asmodean was, he knew her and his killer, he feared his killer as he would another Forsaken, Asmodean felt a shiver right before dying that could have been a woman channelling and Graendal had not only the means to get to Caemlyn quickly, but to kill him.

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Comments

Tamyrlin: 2005-05-06

It's odd. I looked for a Graendal killed Asmodean theory in the archives, and didn't find one...very strange. I think we have discussed it so much on the boards...anyway. Unfortunately, I am fervently against Graendal. First, we believe Graendal is planning on Rand's attack on Sammael. Second, Rahvin says he is planning his own surprise because he knows the other Forsaken won't help. Third, we have no reason to believe Graendal cared that Asmodean would die...in fact, she is most fearful of LTT, almost tearfully upset that so many have passed away. The idea that she would place herself in harms way, for hours, simply to kill Asmodean, is beyond reasonable. In fact, we are led to believe the Forsaken believe Asmodean is at full strength. The only scenario I believe could get Graendal to go to the Palace and kill Asmodean, would be a direct order from the DO himself, which would not have been obvious by the time the murder happens. No information I have ever seen puts Graendal at the Palace, nor having the information necessary to believe Rand was attacking Rahvin that morning; Graendal lacked motive, and in my opinion, lacked the will to put herself in harms way, especially after Rahvin was balefired.

Callandor: 2005-05-07

**At the time that he died Aginor, Balthamel, Be'lal, Ishamael, and Rhavin were all dead. Lanfear had gone through the doorway with Moiraine so was either a captive or dead. Moghedien had been collored by Nynaeve.**

A person entering Finnland is not automatically captured or killed -- wishes come first since that is the agreement.

**I don't think anyone that couldn't channel would have caused him fear and he could have stopped them, even partially shielded. This means it had to be someone that could channel. There is no reason to believe that he had any dealings with the Black Ajah so that leaves the other Forsaken.**

With you so far.

**Also, since Graendal had dealings with Rhavin, she may have been keeping tabs on Caemlyn and if so, respond quickly after Rhavin's death.

So Graendal had the knowledge of what Asmodean was, he knew her and his killer, he feared his killer as he would another Forsaken, Asmodean felt a shiver right before dying that could have been a woman channelling and Graendal had not only the means to get to Caemlyn quickly, but to kill him.**

And there it is. The tell-tale killing of any Graendal killing Asmodean theory.

1. Graendal has no reason whatsoever to keep tabs on/go to Caemlyn save the Forsaken meeting. If anything, she should have been in Illian at the time, waiting for the Forsaken's plan to go through.

2. How in the world would Graendal know Rahvin was dead, without actually being there already, to which she would have no reason to be there for the suddenness of Rand's strike?

3. A point often overlooked -- Graendal is a coward.

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 6 - Threads Woven of Shadow

Disbelief and scorn twisted Graendal's face. "I serve the Great Lord and obey, Sammael." "As do I. As well as any." "So good of you to deign to kneel to our Master." Her voice was as wintry as her smile, and his face darkened. ~"All I say is that Lews Therin is as dangerous now as he ever was in our own time. Frightened? Yes, I am frightened. I intend to live forever, not meet Rahvin's fate!~"**

Graendal wouldn't go near Rand unless she was ~forced~ to (shown in the Cleansing, and when she needed to cover her tracks in Illian, to which she had an actual reason to go to instead of a supposed one).

4. Graendal might instill fear in him, but with the shiver, it just implies a female channeler -- and Asmodean just ~happens~ to think of how good it is that Lanfear, a woman who haunted his dreams, is "dead" now before being killed... by someone he fears and was obviously shocked to see. Hmm...........

5. Why kill Asmodean? She has no motive! You imply that she went to Caemlyn, going into what she most likely (and somehow knew) was a titanic battle between channelers who are her equal if not stronger than her in the One Power -- to kill Asmodean.

What?! Graendal is a flake, but I give her credit for having the brains not to go near a thing like that, especially on a whim.

6. And the final, and I feel most telling fact: Graendal did not know Asmodean was shielded. She would've had to go through that titanic battle, past a man she fears, to kill a man whom she has no motive to, and she has the knowledge that he is still quite a strong channeler -- maybe not her strength, but strong nonetheless.

Only Asmodean, Rand, and, guess who, Lanfear knew about Asmodean being weaker in the One Power.

**The only scenario I believe could get Graendal to go to the Palace and kill Asmodean, would be a direct order from the DO himself, which would not have been obvious by the time the murder happens.**

And that is made further impossible by RJ saying in an interview that the Dark One did ~not~ order Asmodean's death.

Really, all that Graendal has going for her, is that she is generally the last one to stand up to the process of oblivious elimination -- but she has so many other flaws in her being able to kill Asmodean that it's laughable.

reTaardad: 2005-05-07

I, too, am opposed to Asmodean's death by Graendal's hand, mostly because there is only one true exerpt from the books that show that Graendal killed Asmodean, [LOC: 23, To Understand a Message, 348]:

**"Asmodean and Lanfear are dead, and I am sure Moghedien must be, too." She was surprised to hear her own voice, hoarse and unsteady.**

But then again, Demandred found out in the beginning of LoC that Asmodean had been killed from the Dark One and Graendal says that she had visited Shayol Ghul before their meeting, so she could have found out from the DO just as easily as Demandred.

Also, one argument that was put forth in favor of Graendal says that if it were a male channeler that killed Asmodean, then Rand would have felt Saidin channeled and would have become suspicious. If it were Graendal, wouldn't Aviendha become suspicious, probably more so than Rand would at male channeling, considering that she is the only female channeler that is supposed to be in Caemlyn at the time? Moiraine is dead, and Egwene is recovering in Cairhein, so if Aviendha were to feel a female channeling Saidar at the distance that Asmodean could have gotten in the time he left the fountain and was killed, I'm sure she would have been quite startled. I'm certainly not endorsing the idea that a male channeler or another character killed Asmodean, because there's even less evidence for those theories than for Graendal.

I like the quote you gave that says Asmodean felt a chill before he died. I've never noticed it before.

But, anyways, I guess I'm not of any opinion on the theory of Asmodean's death. There's no definite proof on any side. I'm ready to just RAFO.

WinespringBrother: 2005-05-07

Tamyrlin:

"First, we believe Graendal is planning on Rand's attack on Sammael.

Second, Rahvin says he is planning his own surprise because he knows the other Forsaken won't help. "

Notwithstanding that, Graendal has her own yet to be revealed plans. She has had very little on screen time, and it is hard to eliminate her based on what we saw.

Tamyrlin:

"Third, we have no reason to believe Graendal cared that Asmodean would die...in fact, she is most fearful of LTT, almost tearfully upset that so many have passed away. The idea that she would place herself in harms way, for hours, simply to kill Asmodean, is beyond reasonable. In fact, we are led to believe the Forsaken believe Asmodean is at full strength. The only scenario I believe could get Graendal to go to the Palace and kill Asmodean, would be a direct order from the DO himself, which would not have been obvious by the time the murder happens. No information I have ever seen puts Graendal at the Palace, nor having the information necessary to believe Rand was attacking Rahvin that morning; Graendal lacked motive, and in my opinion, lacked the will to put herself in harms way, especially after Rahvin was balefired. "

Well someone placed themselves in harm's way to kill Asmodean. From this q/a quote from RJ, it doesn't seem likely that he ordered Asmodean killed:

"In any event, the Dark One tries to conserve his resources, using and reusing those he might have killed himself, or ordered killed, in a time where there were thousands to equal them. (Group 1, #15)."

Someone did it on their own agenda. By your criteria of elimination, no one would have faced Rand alone - they were all planning on being teamed up with someone. That includes Rahvin. Yet he did face Rand rather than running to live, so he probably was counting on a partner to team up with him. But who and where was that partner? He/She was probably planning on leaving Rahvin to die all along, and stayed behind for some reason, possibly to kill Asmodean. Graendal is as good a candidate for that 'X' as anyone else, and better than some because she at least has a plausible motive, that Asmodean may be the only chosen other than Sammael to know she was in Arad Doman.

Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 3 - Pale Shadows

"I have told everything I know." Asmodean sighed heavily. "We were hardly close friends at the best. Do you believe I am holding back something? I don't know where the others are, if that is what you want. Except Sammael, and you knew he'd taken lllian for his kingdom before I told you. Graendal was in Arad Doman for a time, but I expect she has gone now; she likes her comforts too well. I suspect Moghedien is or was in the west somewhere as well, but no one ever finds the Spider unless she wants to be found. Rahvin has a queen for one of his pets, but your guess is as good as mine as to what country she rules for him. And that is all I know that might help locate them."

JakOShadows: 2005-05-07

I believe that Tam is right on this one. Greandal doesn't seem like to go out and assassinate someone after there was just a battle at that spot. The only woman who seems to go out and take an active role with the plots and killings is Lanfear(Moggy who is dead), and she's still caught in the ter'angreal. Unless she can get out in a matter of a day, it's not likely to be her either. Personally, I think that it is almost impossible to find out who it is? And in my opinion, I believe whoever killed him was seen by accident and was forced to kill Asmodean, that's what makes it so hard to prove.

reTaardad: 2005-05-08

One question, Lanfear-Killed-Asmodean-Theorists (and I take it you are included in this, Callandor), why would Lanfear kill Asmodean? Of course, there's reason to kill him, but under the circumstances, she would have had to use one of her Finn wishes in order to get into our world and kill him. Why would she waste a wish to kill a man that was so insignificant in the cause for the Light? If anything, given the chance to return to the world for a time to kill someone, and considering how touchy she was just hours before, Lanfear would have loved to obliterate Rand instead of Asmodean. Plus, she would have known Rand was weakened by the amount of the Power he used in the defeat of Rahvin and would have obviously followed up on it were she allowed to.

: 2005-05-09

I agree with most of Callandor's points. I would say, however, that the books make it fairly clear that getting rid of one more competitor for Nae'blis is motive enough for any of the Forsaken to kill another. So I think she has motive to kill him, but no reason to do it at that time or place considering all the other factors Callandor notes.

Aiel Finn: 2005-05-09

You're right in that Grenedal seems the most obvious choice, but she is lacking both motive and courage. Lanfear is likely, she may have asked to be allowed to kill Asmodean just so Rand/LTT doesn't become too powerful for her to sway, but that seems a stretch. I remember seeing a theory/article somewhere about the servants that Rand sees during the battle. They are a man and woman near where Asmodean is killed a few hours later. Maybe one of them is Grenedal and killed him.

Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-05-09

The main flaw I find in your theory is that you limit yourself to living Forsaken. Since dead ones come back, it is unwise to dismiss them out of hand for any reason.

Obviously, Moridin killed Asmodean. But Graendal could be come in second.

Good for you for finding a gap in the theories that you could succesfully inhabit. Hard to believe no one had submitted this before when its been discussed so much, but you're the brainiac who noticed and got their bid in on time, so its your territory now. Well Done!

ranman38: 2005-05-09

I believe RJ stated the man and woman near the happenings, were either A, not important, or B, specifically not Graendal. Someone can surely quote the exact question I am sure. I beleive Lanfear wanted Asmodean dead, because he taught Rand things that helped him defeat/resist her.

JakOShadows: 2005-05-09

Actually, now I'm leaning more towards Lanfear because of her weakening in the power. In another theory, it was posted that she was the only one that had a decrease in her ability to channel out of everyone that got reborn. Then she could have been going after Rand to get revenge, but instead Asmodean stumbled on to her and she had to kill them. Then when Rand never showed up, she left. That would coincide with the timeline, because Rand would be attacking Rahvin and dealing with that. And her decrease in power could be evidence that she made a deal with the Finns to get out of there. Whereas all the other forsaken are not so much of a lone and would depend on the dark one to help them out, or maybe even that the dark one has no power there.

Aiel Finn: 2005-05-09

It may have been one of the transmigrated forsaken, but did we know that that was possible in that book. RJ said that we knew everything needed to find the killer in that book.

: 2005-05-09

This is always a good subject, because there isn't a right answer. Believe it or not I have the right answer.

Let's look at the facts.

(1) There is still fighting going on. Not in the palace but the Aeil are routing the remaining dark friends and shadow spawn.

(2) Rand is in the palace looking from a vantage point at Mat, Avi & Asmo. The Maidens are trying to get him to eat.

a. If they are trying to get him to eat something, than that means a couple of things can be assumed.

i. The palace is secured...or almost secured. Armed Aeil would be going through the palace making sure everything is safe and that there wouldn't be anything to harm the Cara'carn.

ii. Most of the servants would be hiding or going through a security check. So there really wouldn't be that many people wandering around.....Asmo would have sent a servant for wine if there was.

b. There is both a male and female channeler with in sensing distance of the murder. We have an idea how sensitive Rand is when he fought Sammuel. Avi, is sensitive, but we do not know how. But we can put her on par with the wonder girls.

c. We know that Aeil do not get lackadaisical even when everything is cool.

d. So a person just wandering the halls would be stopped at a minimum and questioned.

e. There is one argument against this and that is Basher(sp) just walking up with a jar of wine....even though there isn't a way that he could have gotten close with out passing some security check, plus he doesn't have any armed escort. So you know the Aiel let him pass and kept his men back (or do you think he didn't know there was shadow spawn about and would have entered a battle ground alone when Aeil are about?).

(3) Asmodeans shield was dissipating or Lanfear wanted us to think that. But I would say that even with a shield he was as strong as a modern day AS. So he does have skills and a way to protect himself. He wouldn't have gone on the mission if he was that helpless.

a. So whoever killed him had to use a method other than a knife or something physical.

b. Also the murderer had to be more powerful than him.

c. As you have pointed out there are only a couple of Chosen to choose from.

i. Lanfear can not pass the “Intuitively Obvious” test.....no matter how much a person wants to believe & no matter how much you say this is fantasy....she was taken out (2) chapters before...come on lets be realistic.

d. So we can assume it was a channeler of great strength, a member of the Chosen, or somebody with powers or skills that are abnormal (i.e. Slayer).

i. But Slayer can be removed as a suspect, because there isn't a way to predict when somebody will be any given place (unless they are in jail) for him to pop in and then pop out. I also feel like Asmo would have had enough power and skill to stop Slayer or at least make more of a commotion.

(4) So we need somebody who can be in the palace, with out drawing to much attention. Or somebody that can pop in and out of the palace with out anybody knowing.

a. Slayer...tar

b. Ishy/Moridin...TP

(5) We need somebody who has skills of spying on powerful channeling characters with out them detecting them.

a. Ishy/Moridin, he is the skulker(sp).

(6) We need somebody who has a real need to have Asmodean taken out of the equation. Or can gain some type of advantage by having him removed.

a. This is a large group (i.e. the Shadow). Anybody who wants Rand dead or weakened.

b. But Sammuel fits this one best, he is a military leader. This can be a good move for him since Rand looks like he is concentrating on him. He doesn't know what Asmodean could be telling Rand about him and how to beat him. Plus it unbalances Rand, where the hell is Asmodean?

(7) There isn't a body. We need to know how they got ride of the body.

a. Balefire?

b. Grabbed and dragging into tar?

(8) Asmodean recognized the murderer.

a. Moridin has a new body.

b. Slayer/Luc is new; they came after the Chosen were sealed.

(9) The most important is the “Intuitively Obvious” statement from RJ.

a. Through all the theory posts and message board discussions, this is the one that trips everybody up.

b. But if I had to choose who matches this best, I would choose Sammuel and then Moridin (even if we do not know he is alive).

c. I suspect that most people the first time they read that first, thought of Slayer. That is an honest and logical assumption because we only had a little information at that time.

(10) Now here is the answer you have all been waiting for, the identity of Asmodean killer is..............Robert Jordan.

This only makes sense. I do not think that RJ would have suspected that all the websites with the message boards and theory posts would have investigated and dissected the whole series.

The story line needed Asmodean out of the picture. So RJ killed him. There was any number of people with motive and the ability to do it (as we have seen with all the theories posted). I do not think he had any particular person in mind. I think he thought that we the readers would accept what he wanted. That was that Asmodean taught Rand how to Channel better, and now he was dead. We were supposed to accept the fact and move on.

Now he has to back track and find out who would be the best person to tag as the killer.

I personally thought it was Moridin; it has his MO all over it. Just like the prologue to the Eye of the World, he healed LTT so he would know who it was that won. Ishy would have ensured that Asmodean knew who came to kill him. He would have use the TP so Avi & Rand couldn't detect him. His motive was to keep Rand from getting too big and smart too fast. He is the only one who wants to keep Rand alive so he can use him (he did save him from Sammy).

But in the end I have to believe that there isn't just one murderer. I have read believable theories on Graendal, Sammuel, Slayer & Moridin and even Shadar Haran (sp) Shadows Hand. I do not think the ones for Lanfear are believable, sorry.

Callandor: 2005-05-09

**The main flaw I find in your theory is that you limit yourself to living Forsaken. Since dead ones come back, it is unwise to dismiss them out of hand for any reason.**

Be'lal and Rahvin -- balefired. Easy to dismiss.

Aginor and Bathamel -- being reborn at the time. Easy to dismiss.

Ishamael -- being reborn as well. Easy to dismiss.

MatCauthon: 2005-05-09

**The main flaw I find in your theory is that you limit yourself to living Forsaken. Since dead ones come back, it is unwise to dismiss them out of hand for any reason.**

I left them out for a couple of reasons. The biggest reason was that Osan'gar and Aran'gar weren't introduced until the prologue of Lord of Chaos which is the book after Asmodean gets killed and Moridin even later than that. I also believe that he recognized his killer but he wouldn't have recognized them in their new bodies.

Another part I forgot in the original post was from Lord of Chaos in Threads Woven of Shadow. Graendal and Sammael are talking and she knows that Asmodean is dead but she claims that Rand killed him. When asked about Asmodean, Lanfear and Moghedien's whereabouts she responds with:

"'You know as much as I do,' Graendal said blithely, pausing for a sip from her goblet. 'Myself, I think Lews Therin killed them.'"

A few paragraphs after that:

"'Waving ringed fingers in time to a snatch of music from below, Graendal spoke absently, as though her real attention was on the tune. 'So many of us have died confronting him. Aginor and Balthamel. Ishamael, Be'lal and Rahvin. And Lanfear and Asmodean, whatever you believe.'"

Pretending like she doesn't care, it seems that is her way of passing on info which is actually quite important. So she shows her knowledge that Asmodean is dead and blames Rand but that doesn't mean she isn't lying about that part.

As for motive, all the Forsaken pretty much seem to kill one another anyways so that they can be Nae'blis. And on top of that Asmodean was a trator as they saw it so killing him might earn favor from the Dark One. Graendal also seems to think that Rand is powerful and killing the person who is teaching him would slow this down, at least as far as power with the TP.

As for Graendal being too much of a coward, I don't think so. Mesaana thinks this about her in Lord of Chaos, The First Message:

"She [Graendal] gave a gay, slightly foolish laugh. No, it would be a dire mistake to take Graendal at surface value. Most who had taken her for a fool were long since dead, victims of the woman they disregarded."

That shows that she's willing to kill and shouldn't be underestimated. I think that she would have the nerve to go there if she thought she could get away with it. And after the battle there would probably be some confusion, no wards up yet, and Rand and other channellers either resting from fatigue or otherwise preoccupied.

MatCauthon: 2005-05-10

**Graendal also seems to think that Rand is powerful and killing the person who is teaching him would slow this down, at least as far as power with the TP.**

Typo on my part. I didn't mean the TP but the OP.

Aiel Finn: 2005-05-10

Yes!!!, Grenedal has the motive to kill Asmo just because she doesn't want Rand knowing too much and coming to get her. You'll notice that Rand hasn't learned too many new weaves since Asmo died. She was just looking out for her own, and we all are disregarding her just like Messy warned us not to.

JakOShadows: 2005-05-10

I see ya'lls evidence now. It does make sense that she would kill him then. So I am agreeing with you. And also, she could have been sent by the DO. If you notice, he hasn't been reborn. And for that to happen he would have to be balefired or just plain not reborn. And Avi would have sensed the one power, so Greandal would had to have the wishes of the DO to use the TP. This just adds strength to your case.(At least in my opinion) Good job. Those were good quotes you pulled up there. I'll have to do some rereads over the summer.

Father Time: 2005-05-10

**Also, since Graendal had dealings with Rhavin, she may have been keeping tabs on Caemlyn and if so, respond quickly after Rhavin's death.

So Graendal had the knowledge of what Asmodean was, he knew her and his killer, he feared his killer as he would another Forsaken, Asmodean felt a shiver right before dying that could have been a woman channelling and Graendal had not only the means to get to Caemlyn quickly, but to kill him.**

An interesting point that seems to echo what happened when Sammael was axed. Somehow Graendal knew and felt a need to show up in Illian and do some sort of house cleaning. She had some sort of agreement with Sammael and Rhavin so it would be easy to see Graendal snooping around the palace after Rhavin's death in an attempt to remove any desired items and do some more house cleaning.

As to the shiver that Asmodean felt, it could be coincidence or, as you postulate, a woman channelling.

Callandor: 2005-05-11

**Pretending like she doesn't care, it seems that is her way of passing on info which is actually quite important. So she shows her knowledge that Asmodean is dead and blames Rand but that doesn't mean she isn't lying about that part.**

Yet, she is lying about it obviously then. Or, you can take the other side, she is just making it up since we know Lanfear did not "die" (in the same confirmed sense as Rahvin or Be'lal or Ishamael) and Graendal also clumps Moghedien into the mix.

Sure, she's "bold enough" to be the only one to say that Asmodean is dead, but who she also says is dead casts doubt that she knows anything at all about any of the Forsaken.

**As for motive, all the Forsaken pretty much seem to kill one another anyways so that they can be Nae'blis. And on top of that Asmodean was a trator as they saw it so killing him might earn favor from the Dark One. Graendal also seems to think that Rand is powerful and killing the person who is teaching him would slow this down, at least as far as power with the TP.**

It's funny. The Forsaken squabble for power and threaten, yet we have never seen one Forsaken kill another -- even when Graendal attacks Cyndane and Moghedien, it's with Compulsion.

That motive I feel is just trying to accomodate a big hole. Graendal is just the one who people feel can be thrown anywhere randomly, and somehow make sense.

"Oh, well she had reason to go to Caemlyn to keep tabs on Rahvin." "She had motive to kill because Asmodean was a Forsaken."

And it's always over looked that Graendal is a coward.

**That shows that she's willing to kill and shouldn't be underestimated. I think that she would have the nerve to go there if she thought she could get away with it. And after the battle there would probably be some confusion, no wards up yet, and Rand and other channellers either resting from fatigue or otherwise preoccupied.**

Yeah, great, I have a quote stating specifically that Graendal does not want to meet Rahvin's fate by the hands of Lews Therin. Sorry, you're quote that Graendal has the willingness to kill doesn't counter or come near to balance that she wouldn't want to go near Rand.

She can kill. She's ~afraid~ to go near Rand. She only went to Illian -- for fear of driving Rand toward her. That's it. Her fear of him, made her do the boldest thing she's done in the series so far.

**And also, she could have been sent by the DO.**

No. Plain bold-faced no. RJ specifically stated in an interview that the Dark One did ~NOT~ order Asmodean's death. Period.

**An interesting point that seems to echo what happened when Sammael was axed. Somehow Graendal knew and felt a need to show up in Illian and do some sort of house cleaning. She had some sort of agreement with Sammael and Rhavin so it would be easy to see Graendal snooping around the palace after Rhavin's death in an attempt to remove any desired items and do some more house cleaning.**

1. Graendal went to Illian out of fear of Rand coming after her due to ties to Sammael -- a very big reason and far more important than she had a feeling.

2. As far as we know, Graendal had been to Caemlyn, only once in the entire series. Compare that to Illian where she had multitudes of meetings with him. Hmm... where does one go? To the place where she has seemingly been only once, and at the time of "need", many months ago? Or does one say not to worry over that, and go to the place where you had an established contact with and worked together extensively with? I wonder....

SDog: 2005-05-11

Callandor wrote:

**"It's funny. The Forsaken squabble for power and threaten, yet we have never seen one Forsaken kill another -- even when Graendal attacks Cyndane and Moghedien, it's with Compulsion."**

That's true--we haven't seen it on screen. But isn't there a quote from Moghedien, and possible Demandred, about killing some of the previous Chosen during the AoL?

Plus, Graendal didn't want to kill them probably because she could Compel information out of them. Either that, or she could use them to her advantage. How helpful would it be to have two of the most powerful channelers in the world at your disposal?

Now, that fact may speak to her motive NOT to kill Asmodean. In fact, a smart Forsaken would have shielded Asmo, then Compelled him to share information about Rand. The only reasons for a Forsaken to kill him were: by accident/surprise ("Oh crap, there's a Chosen I didn't expect to see...Die!", out of anger/revenge, a lack of ability with Compulsion (unlikely), or to curry favor with the DO somehow. To me, the first two are by far the most likely.

Given that, I think most of the Chosen would have equal "motive" if Asmo stumbled in and surprised them. This is especially true if they didn't know about his shield.

**"1. Graendal went to Illian out of fear of Rand coming after her due to ties to Sammael -- a very big reason and far more important than she had a feeling."**

Plus, Rand wasn't in Illian at the time she went there, was he? I don't buy the theory that Graendal showed up later for some ambiguous reason. If she was there (and again, I'm not sure), she had been there the whole time as a traitorous or cowardly accomplice to Rahvin.

Callandor: 2005-05-11

**Plus, Graendal didn't want to kill them probably because she could Compel information out of them. Either that, or she could use them to her advantage. How helpful would it be to have two of the most powerful channelers in the world at your disposal?**

See, that is the point then. Graendal squeezes for information and usefulness -- not outright killing as far as we've seen. Asmodean was not interogated; he was not asked 20 Questions. He was flat out killed. Graendal would have asked a multitude of questions to get as much information as possible out of him -- and then maybe killed him (after all, if Lanfear and Moghedien are useful, Asmodean can be too) as you have said.

**Given that, I think most of the Chosen would have equal "motive" if Asmo stumbled in and surprised them. This is especially true if they didn't know about his shield.**

Most likely, yes. But that little problem of them being there, comes up everytime.

**Plus, Rand wasn't in Illian at the time she went there, was he?**

He was. Graendal says that she had to sneak around Rand and the Asha'man.

However, again, her only reason she went near a person she fears, and we know she fears, was because she was fearing the link from Sammael to her that Rand might be able to make. She wanted to remain as far away from Rand as possible and out of harms way.

With Caemlyn, there is absolutely different circumstances, and drawing a parallel between them does not hold water.

JakOShadows: 2005-05-11

The only problem with all our theories is we also don't have an idea of a timeline. At the start of that segment, he was playing music to Aviendha and Mat. This means it was hours after the battle. If someone didn't show after a few hours, I might go looking for them. And then she just accidently stumbled into Asmodean. And my money is on either Lanfear or Greandal, depending on the reasons. If it was a purposeful killing(of Rand or Asmo), I would put my money on Lanfear, because after being defeated she wouldn't want Asmodean to be helped. If it was an accident, it makes more sense for Greandal to be spying on her, and she just got caught. But the problem is that we don't know the exact circumstances and motives surrounding what happened, so this a rafo. I do believe ya'll are right about the shiver though. There just isn't enough info to prove a motive or situation.

dedoublya: 2005-05-12

I have a theory on how Lanfear might have killed Asomodean:

She's just been captured by the Finn guys, right? But their world isn't our one, it twists somehow, according to Morraine, allowing them to see the future. Well, what if they can see the past, and somehow deposit Lanfear into Camleyn, to kill Asmo for their own reasons. This could have been done much later in the Finn world than it did in the real world.

Of course there are some obvious flaws to this theory. I don't believe Jordan would just introduce "Time Travel" into his story, and he did say it was someone obvious. And why would the Finn dudes want to kill Asmo? It's just a theory, think about it though.

Why are we just thinking about people who can channel? An Aes Sedai can die just as easily on an arrow, as Jordan keeps saying during the books.

Was Shador Haran around at this stage?

Slayer?

Fain? wasn't he traveling to Camleyn?

Moridin?

And as for the whole recognition thing, we have no idea who Asmodean met and talked to before his meeting with Rand.

JakOShadows: 2005-05-12

That's a good thought doublya, but since he can channel and seems like he has fair warning to take some protective measures, it would fairly hard for a person who couldn't channel to this. Now granted, we don't exactly know how much of the shield he still has, but this would have to come into play. And also, there are very few who he has a mortal fear of that aren't forsaken, so it rules out a lot of possibilities. But it could be possible. A lot of this theory goes on what you believe was possible situationally, so we don't know for sure.

I know I lean towards Lanfear a bit more because she's the only one that reduces the amount of one power she can use after being reborn. This is evidence that she did some bargaining of her own with the finns. This could contribute to her being in the mindtrap, for going against the DO's wishes in the process. Then Asmodean stumbled into her on accident, when she was looking to get revenge on Rand, and he had to be killed. But this definitely a rafo, because there is no solid evidence either way.

Sampson: 2005-05-12

Come on people, I know allot of ya'll are very intelligent people. But since this debate can not have a winner, we are spinning our wheels.

But, I do have to say some additional information has been added from this discussion. So it can't all be bad.

Basically I have gotten additional information why Graendal wouldn't be the murderer.

I can not think any of the Chosen would flat out kill Asmodean without trying to get some kind of advantage from it, with the exception of 1 (Moridin). But now I am starting to doubt that.

Moridin seems like he would be the only one who would flat out kill Asmodean before he could squeeze out every ounce of usefulness. I acknowledge this goes against his character, but he is the closest to the DO. So Asmodeans betrayal was the reason he became that much less useful. **side note** Lanfear being an accomplice to Asmodean's betrayal could be the reason she is not as powerful as she was pre-finns....just a thought.

I can see Graendal going to Illian to erase any evidence that would put Rand on her trail. She also knew that Sammael found a stasis box, so there was an opportunity to find something useful for her.

In Camleyn, she only has 1 reason to be there. She was ordered to be there, you know she would resist going where she might get killed, look at the cleansing. So if she wasn't ordered by the DO (or Ishy) she wouldn't have placed herself in that kind of danger.

I do not want to step on any toes, but the idea of lanfear is absurd. If she was going to wish her way out to kill somebody, she would have killed Rand. If she had enough composure to decide to kill Asmodean, she wouldn't have made the deal. She wouldn't have given up any of her power to kill a rat. But that is beside the point; she isn't obvious because she was taken out a chapter or 2 before. She is way too much of a reach.

So we have our list down to 3.....Moridin – Sammael – Slayer.

Any of these 3 could have done it.

I minus Slayer because I do not think Slayer could kill Asmodean....or be able to find him, too random.

That leaves Sammael, I do not have big reasons why he couldn't have done it. I mean he did strike at Rands flanks while he was fighting at Cairhien. I just think he would have tried to squeeze Asmodean for information (troop movement – supplies – aeil-etc) before he killed him. Or he would have made him give false information to Rand.

Now we are at Moridin. The main reason he should be eliminated is because he is dead when the incident happened. We do not know he was been recycled.

But he is the watcher, when Sammy & Graendal do their thing with the Shaido. They didn't know he was there watching. He (at least that's the theory) helped kill Sammy at SL. He could have made sure Asmodean recognized him prior to eliminating him (see EotW- he did the same with LTT).

I think there isn't an answer, but until RJ tells us and offers to fill in the blanks so it makes sense, Asmodean instantaneously became combustible and burned to ash (something about coming back from being balefired – Avi & Mat better watch out) there wasn't a witness, and all the evidence was swept up and thrown away.

Oh by the way, is there any reason why it couldn't have been Moridin or Shadar Haran(sp)?

Jain Farstrider: 2005-05-15

I see this topic is still as popular as ever. Here's my take:

Graendal:

* She's a coward. Her only motive would be an order from the DO, but we know from Shadar Haran that she'd had no orders of late up to tPoD (“The time when you could go your own way has passed” [tPoD: 12, New Alliances, 266]).

* No evidence of her being near Caemlyn at the time of the murder. Any suggestion she was is pure conjecture.

* If she was the killer, why is it still a secret? Why would Jordan have not told us by now. It'll be a huge let down if it gets casually mentioned in the next book by Graendal that "Oh yeah, the Dark One telling me to kill Asmodean was a real drag". Oh, well there's that mystery solved, let's move on with the plot. Boring, and won't happen IMO.

* It's not obvious, unless you take the time to eliminate everyone else on whatever grounds you seem to feel makes them impossible as the killer.

Ishamael/Moridin:

* At the time, Ishamael was dead (to the best of our knowledge). I agree it's possible Moridin was around by then, but in that case, how did Asmodean recognise him?

* His motive would be to take back control of the Forsaken. But then, why did he not tell them?

* Again, hardly obvious that a dead character is the killer. Remember, it's meant to be 'obvious' as soon as he died.

Slayer:

* No evidence that Asmodean knew Slayer. As an assassin, it would be likely his identity was kept from as many people as possible. Also, it's obvious the "You? No!" is a clue left to us by RJ. It would be a useless clue if we had no way of knowing the killer was known to Asmodean.

* Why does he not gloat over it, as he gloats over killing Amico and Joiya? Surely a Forsaken is a much bigger prize than two measely Black Ajah Aes Sedai.

* We knew next to nothing of Slayer by the time of the killing. How then is it obvious?

Lanfear:

* Had great motive; Asmodean was teaching Rand, Rand learns too quickly and is able to beat Lanfear at the Cairhienin docks. Lanfear, quick to anger as ever, decides Asmodean is at fault and must die to prevent him teaching more to Rand.

* Why did the killer not kill Asmodean earlier in the series? Because the impetus for his murder was the scene at the docks.

* Big problem: she was in Finnland at the time. But this just adds to the argument, IMO. It is quite apparent that when RJ decides to reveal Asmodean's killer a big plot thread will come along with it, if not why has it been kept secret? It makes sense that Lanfear is the killer and the plot thread is what happened in Finnland. Whether you believe she used a wish, or whatever, it's something we weren't meant to know.

* If the “You? No!” clue was meant to point to anyone, it was her. We know Asmodean was terrified of her more than anyone. And he had just been talking about her. Can anybody say 'irony'?

* Obvious? Well, more so than any others.

In conclusion: IT WAS LANFEAR. Let's move on.

If you want to read everything I have to say on this, go here:

http://www.livejournal.com/community/wheeloftime/80295.html

Jaim Farstrider: 2005-05-16

Lan killed Asmodean!

Merk: 2005-05-16

You make some good points, Jain.

I would just say, though, that people saying Graendel had no motive are mistaken. All the forsaken have the same motive: to get rid of a competitor for Nae'blis. We've seen in their meetings that none would hesitate to take another out if they got the chance and expect the same from the others. I'm not saying that desire would overcome Graendel's fraidycat-ness, but it is a motive and people keep saying she has none. And it might be anough for the theories that say Asmo stumbled upon her when she was there for something else. Or perhaps somehow she learned he was weakened. I'm not backing either of those theories, I'm just saying there's motive there and scenarios in which she might act.

Or, it could have been on orders. Just because the Superfade says she can't act completely on her own anymore doesn't mean she was working completely without any orders before. We know the DO gives the Forsaken some orders and that they are somewhat free to decide how to reach those ends, and that they have also been free to foment their own plots (against each other, to make chaos, etc.) SH seems to me to be saying, "now you're going to be working completely under orders," but not implying that there were never direct orders before. Again, though, I'm just pointing this out, I don't personally believe Asmo was killed on the DO's orders.

No, she's not obvious, but clearly RJ's having fun with us. If it were really obvious, we wouldn't have all these theories. Still, we can rank things on a less obvious and more obvious scale.

Your points about Moridin are good. I would add that it seems to me that if Moridin had the chance, he would mindtrap Asmo, not kill him. Asmo really only sided with Rand because he had no other choice. Give him no other choice (mindtrap him) and he'd be happy to be taken back by the Shadow and could still be of some use. So I think any planned act by Moridin or the DO would be to mindtrap and use him, or else to torture him horribly for all eternity (if they did want him punished/dead, I don't think they'd got for something like BF).

I like your timing arguments that you use to support Lanfear. Why wasn't Asmo killed earlier, or later? Why right then? And what might that tell us about the killer? I've used the same line of thinking to argue that Moiraine didn't do it, because I believe she would have killed him earlier if she meant to ever kill him, not gone to her predicted death/not-dead-but-gone-for-awhile without taking care of it.

Lanfear had the same motive as the other Forsaken plus the possible added incentive of anger over the docks incident; she knew about his weakness because she did it; and she certainly makes some of Asmo's last thoughts less random and more ironic (other than setting up irony, what other literary purpose did him thinking about Lanfear right before dying serve?). Her major weakness is being in Finnland and then being Cyndane the next time we see her, but you're right that the secrets of what happened on the docks and through the gateway might all come out at once and explain a lot, including Asmo's murder, and might be the reason RJ hasn't just told us. Afterall, he must be protecting some sort of information by not telling us.

jason wolfbrother: 2005-05-16

Jain Farstrider

Graendal:

* She's a coward. Her only motive would be an order from the DO, but we know from Shadar Haran that she'd had no orders of late up to tPoD (“The time when you could go your own way has passed” [tPoD: 12, New Alliances, 266]).

Funny you should use that chapter to prove how cowardly Graendal is. From that very same chapter

"TITLE: Path of Daggers, CHAPTER: 12 - New Alliances

Shockingly, the Myrddraal laughed. It sounded like ice crumbling. Myrddraal never laughed. "You are braver than most. And wiser. Shaidar Haran will do for you. So long as you remember who I am. So long as you do not let bravery overcome your fear too far."

And yet the much vaunted Lanfear, reborn as Cyndane is trembling in abject terror from this same Fade.

"She had to work moisture into her mouth. "You are a messenger from the Great Lord?" Her voice was steady, but weak. She had never heard of such a thing, the Great Lord sending a message by Myrddraal, and yet. . . . Moghedien was a physical coward, but still one of the Chosen, and she groveled as assiduously as the girl. And there was the light. Graendal found herself wishing her dress were not cut so low. Ridiculous, of course; Myrddraal's appetites for women were well known, but she was one of the. . . . Her eyes drifted to Moghedien once more."

Another common problem people have is they take Graendal as she appears. Which is a mistake.

"TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Message

"I wondered whether you would be here," the new arrival said lightly. "You three have been so secretive." She gave a gay, slightly foolish laugh. No, it would be a dire mistake to take Graendal at surface value. Most who had taken her for a fool were long since dead, victims of the woman they disregarded."

Graendal is the only one that cannot be disproven. Using only FoH you can reduce the suspects to Graendal and Sammael. No they were not the servants. No she did not go to Caemlyn with the intention of killing Asmodean, or running into Rand. But she did kill Asmodean when he stumbled upon her while he was searching for a wine cellar. His bad luck. Our 12 year murder mystery. Graendal is dismissed all too quickly by many people. She had motive. Nae'blis, reducing the number of Chosen, chance encounter with another Forsaken, whatever. She had opportunity. And she had the ability.

Callandor: 2005-05-16

**I'm not saying that desire would overcome Graendel's fraidycat-ness, but it is a motive and people keep saying she has none.**

And a motive that is so singular to Graendal....

**And it might be anough for the theories that say Asmo stumbled upon her when she was there for something else. Or perhaps somehow she learned he was weakened. I'm not backing either of those theories, I'm just saying there's motive there and scenarios in which she might act.**

Yeah, and those scenarios are totally unbased.

1. There is not one established motive for Graendal to ~be~ even in the same nation as Asmodean at the time of his death. All you're saying is, "Well, she could have been." Guess what? As far as we know -- she wasnt!

2. Fact (yes, there is no getting around this!): only 3 people in the world, knew that Asmodean was weakened: Asmodean, Rand, and Lanfear. Lanfear told no one, and it's not like Graendal was along with Rand and Asmodean and over heard this (even Moiraine as far as we know did not know).

**Or, it could have been on orders.**

No. RJ has explicitly stated that the Dark One did ~NOT~ order Asmodean's death.

**Graendal is the only one that cannot be disproven.**

Which is somehow being spun into she did everything for no reason.

**Using only FoH you can reduce the suspects to Graendal and Sammael.**

No, you cannot. You cannot rule out Lanfear, no matter how hard you try.

**No she did not go to Caemlyn with the intention of killing Asmodean, or running into Rand.**

So why did she go to Caemlyn? Keep in mind her cowardism to one specific person: Rand al'Thor (that, is undeniable even to you JWB).

**She had opportunity.**

No -- she -- did -- not.

Prove to me that she was in Caemlyn. Otherwise, you are just supposing.

Anubis: 2005-05-17

considering what happened to mogheiden, I would say it is safe to assume that Lanfear was sexually abused by Shaidar Haran. Thats icky and deffinatly cause for her to cower in fear of him.

MatCauthon: 2005-05-17

**No she did not go to Caemlyn with the intention of killing Asmodean, or running into Rand. But she did kill Asmodean when he stumbled upon her while he was searching for a wine cellar.**

Good point. She most likely went there to search for items involving the OP just like she did later after Sammael's death.

JakOShadows: 2005-05-17

Jason, I like the quotes you pulled up there. I really tend to lean towards Greandal more than the others myself. And actually, Samual can be ruled out of the picture, because he was the bate for the trap. He wouldn't risk leaving Illian, when Rand might be heading his way. He was too smart to leave his country wide open. So according the your evidence, Greandal can be the only one. But I tend to think Lanfear a candidate too if she made a deal with the finns to get out. But that is a big if, so I do think your theory has more evidence to back it up.

Callandor: 2005-05-17

**Good point. She most likely went there to search for items involving the OP just like she did later after Sammael's death.**

Stop right there. Graendal did not go to Illian to look through Sammael's stash of items. She went there specifically to avoid Rand coming directly after her, by whatever evidence was there. The stash was more than anything an after thought.

The only reason she went there was out of fear that Rand would come after her -- nothing more.

In Caemlyn, it is not the same situation. Graendal as far as we know went to Caemyln once, and months before Rand went there at the end of The Fires of Heaven. She went to Illian many times that we know of, and even more times are implied, most of them much more recently than the months from her visits to Caemlyn and then Rand's arrival.

Callandor: 2005-05-17

**considering what happened to mogheiden, I would say it is safe to assume that Lanfear was sexually abused by Shaidar Haran.**

Sorry, missed this part. But no, Lanfear was not raped by Shaidar Haran, as per RJ. Moghedien was, however, as per RJ, but he emphatically said that Lanfear was not.

Merk: 2005-05-17

Callandor:

///**I'm not saying that desire would overcome Graendel's fraidycat-ness, but it is a motive and people keep saying she has none.**

And a motive that is so singular to Graendal.... ///

Lovely, but I saved you the trouble by stating that clearly myself: Graendel has the *same motive that all the Forsaken share.* I thought that made it clear that it wasn't just her that has the motive, as we all know there are more than one Forsaken, right? I am correcting the mistaken idea that she has *no* motive.

Callandor:

///Yeah, and those scenarios are totally unbased.

1. There is not one established motive for Graendal to ~be~ even in the same nation as Asmodean at the time of his death. All you're saying is, "Well, she could have been." Guess what? As far as we know -- she wasnt! ////

Isn't the same true for Lanfear? She could have been there, but as far as we know, she wasn't. For all the possible candidates? I'm saying "she could have been" in response to people who are saying there was no possible way she was. Again, you're highlighting my very point, which is that we can't know either way. There's no way to prove it but it hasn't been disproven either.

Callandor:

///2. Fact (yes, there is no getting around this!): only 3 people in the world, knew that Asmodean was weakened: Asmodean, Rand, and Lanfear. Lanfear told no one, and it's not like Graendal was along with Rand and Asmodean and over heard this (even Moiraine as far as we know did not know).////

Spies, DFs? Being able to tell somehow when she shows up? Who knows? I'm not going to bother defending this idea because I don't believe it is what happened. But it is possible, and every theory I've heard relies on facts/motives/ideas that are unproven and can't *be* proven until RJ tells us more.

Callandor:

///No. RJ has explicitly stated that the Dark One did ~NOT~ order Asmodean's death.///

I was unaware of this. But as I said, I didn't think the order came from the DO, but SH's statement to Moghedian doesn't prove that there was no such order. A statement from RJ obviously does prove that.

Anyway, I think you think I'm arguing for Graendel. I'm not, I'm just trying to identify what we know and what we don't. Someone saying "Graendel has no motive" and thinks they've destroyed the pro-Graendal arguments is wrong, because we know she does have a motive. Personally I lean toward Lanfear, but just think we can't *really* know, just make educated guesses, all of us relying on some things that can't be proven but can't be disproven either (like the idea that Graendel was snooping for angreal, was interrupted by Asmo, and took the opportunity to kill him because she had him taken by surprise and either thought that was enough and why he didn't do more to protect himself, or somehow knew he was weakened. Supposing those are true, which we can not prove or disprove, just argue about, I'm just saying "yes, she'd have motive to kill him."

Jain Farstrider: 2005-05-17

We can argue over the semantics of a RJ turn of phrase from some forgotten chapter until we are blue in the face, and I believe we have, but the main point for me will always be this: RJ kept it a secret for 5 books. Let's assume for a minute that Graendal was the killer (even with the lack of all but the shallowest of motives and nothing at all to link her to the crime). Why did RJ bother being so clandestine? So he could reveal 6 books later that the killer was Graendal, and leave it at that? Mystery solved? Most people seem to forget that this is literature, and as such everything written (or in this case, not written) has a purpose. RJ didn't tell us because knowledge of the killer will reveal a major part of the plot. Now I think it's pretty obvious what this points to: Lanfear, Moiraine and the Finns. That is the plotline that cannot be revealed until RJ is ready to reveal it, and that is why the murderer is as yet unknown. Add this to the wealth of clues leading up to the murder (check the WOT FAQ for these), the ironic alluding of Asmodean right before his death and the "You? No!" clue which points directly at Lanfear, and you have a pretty strong case, in my opinion.

Callandor: 2005-05-18

**Spies, DFs? Being able to tell somehow when she shows up? Who knows? I'm not going to bother defending this idea because I don't believe it is what happened. But it is possible, and every theory I've heard relies on facts/motives/ideas that are unproven and can't *be* proven until RJ tells us more.**

No, that ~is~ the point. From the time that Asmodean was shielded, to the time that he died, ALL THE KNOWLEDGE WE KNOW, and by every other indicator we have throughout the series, ONLY 3 PEOPLE IN THE WORLD KNEW HE WAS REDUCED IN STRENGTH:

1. Rand al'Thor.

2. Asmodean himself.

3. Lanfear.

Saying that someone else "found out" about it -- is complete supposition and baseless.

**I was unaware of this. But as I said, I didn't think the order came from the DO, but SH's statement to Moghedian doesn't prove that there was no such order. A statement from RJ obviously does prove that.**

Yes, it does, and since I sense a bit of disbelief, and to end any further disbelieving by people who do not read replies, here is the interview:

**10. Did the Dark One order Asmodean's death? If not, how does he know about it in the prologue of Lord of Chaos?

A: No, he didn't order Asmodean's death, but he knows a great deal about what goes on in the world, though it isn't complete knowledge.**

April 27th, 2004, found at WoTmania.com

jason wolfbrother: 2005-05-18

**So why did she go to Caemlyn? Keep in mind her cowardism to one specific person: Rand al'Thor (that, is undeniable even to you JWB).**

No I deny her cowardice of Rand completely and utterly. I do not think she is afraid of Rand al'Thor at all. I know she doesn't want to confront him head on, but that has never been Graendal's modus operandi anyway. However, I see no reason for her not to be in Caemlyn checking up on Rahvin when Rand & Co. show up. I do not see her cowering in fear from anyone in the series. As my earlier quotes showed, Graendal faced down Shaidar Haran without flinching. She was afraid but she faced him and did not flinch. She will never willingly and deliberately confront Rand. But she was brave enough to face the possiblility of running into him in Illian. Why is it so hard to believe she was in Caemlyn?

**She had opportunity.**

"No -- she -- did -- not."

Yes -- She -- Did

"Prove to me that she was in Caemlyn. Otherwise, you are just supposing."

Prove to me she couldn't have been. Otherwise you are simply supposing she wasn't.

And Lanfear is eliminated by FoH. As of the end of FoH the reader has no inclination to believe she has escaped Finnland, let alone that she might still even be alive in Finnland, let alone that she would waste one of her wishes on trying to kill a nothing like Asmodean when Rand and Aviendha are walking around free. As of FoH the reader has no idea that any of that is even possible, much less likely. Obvious?? Please. It isn't obvious even in WH when we find out that Cyndane is Lanfear reborn in a new body and she was "held" by the Finn (both Aelfinn and Eelfinn).

Prove to me that Graendal could not have done it. Prove that she was nowhere near Caemlyn. Prove that she wouldn't kill another Forsaken given the chance or if caught by surprise. Prove that she didn't make her own special trip to Shayol Ghul and talk to the DO herself before Demandred did. Prove that her knowledge that Asmodean was dead (when everyone else was so unsure) is a lie.

Until you can do that I will continue to profess my belief and support of Graendal as the killer of Asmodean.

Tamyrlin: 2005-05-18

Jason, isn't it our mantra on the boards, the absence of proof isn't proof? I can't prove Lanfear got out of finnland in time to kill Asmodean, but I can prove Lanfear had motive, I can prove she wanted him dead, I can prove she knew he was blocked, I can prove she knew where he was. It doesn't seem to me that any of those can be proved concerning Graendal. We have no reason to believe she had a strong motive to kill Asmodean, we have reason to believe the DO didn't order his death, we have no proof Graendal was in Caemlyn, we have no proof she knew Asmodean was blocked...so, while Graendal is a possible suspect, I just don't see there being much proof regarding her potential culpability. :)

~sits back down on the couch~

jason wolfbrother: 2005-05-18

Tamyrlin

**Jason, isn't it our mantra on the boards, the absence of proof isn't proof? I can't prove Lanfear got out of finnland in time to kill Asmodean, but I can prove Lanfear had motive, I can prove she wanted him dead, I can prove she knew he was blocked, I can prove she knew where he was. It doesn't seem to me that any of those can be proved concerning Graendal. We have no reason to believe she had a strong motive to kill Asmodean, we have reason to believe the DO didn't order his death, we have no proof Graendal was in Caemlyn, we have no proof she knew Asmodean was blocked...so, while Graendal is a possible suspect, I just don't see there being much proof regarding her potential culpability. :)

~sits back down on the couch~ **

First things first

~tosses LotB a diet Cola~ thx for the quick reply

Now on to your objections ;)

Yes Lanfear is one of the few that knew all of that. Except I seriously doubt she knew where Asmodean was as he didn't know where he was himself. She may have known he was in Caemlyn but that doesn't narrow it down much.

Strong motive for Graendal? Nae'blis? Seems strong enough for any Forsaken. Look what she did to herself when Sammael was playing his games with the Shaido claiming he had been promised Nae'blis.

We know that the DO did not order the death of Asmodean. I have always been of the camp that the murder, by whomever the culprit was, was a murder of opportunity. The murderer was surprised by Asmodean and reacted to remove this new threat by killing it.

We do not know that Graendal was in Caemlyn, but that applies to all the suspects. You cannot prove that any of them were in Caemlyn at the necessary time, much less that they knew where Asmo was or would be at the precise time necessary to kill him. This makes it almost 100% that the murder was unplanned. And that makes your point moot because it does nothing for or against any suspect.

As for Asmo's block I see that as also irrelevant to the murder. Graendal was strong enough, especially if Asmodean was surprised and caught off guard, as he was, to balefire him without a problem, or a concern about his own strength. Moiraine was nowhere near Be'lal's strength but her balefire still destroyed him. Knowledge of a block or lack of knowledge about the block seems totally irrelevant to me.

I don't see a problem with any of the points you raise objecting to Graendal. All rely on her knowledge of where Asmo was and her planning and plotting to deliberately go to Caemlyn with the express purpose of killing Asmodean. I never saw it as a planned murder. I still don't and the more I read the theories about it and reread the books, the less a planned murder makes sense. It had to be an opportunistic kill. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time and he paid the price with his life. It has never been about proving Graendal did it. It has always been about the simple fact that you cannot prove she did not do it. She had motive (Nae'blis) She had opportunity (as did everyone else) and she had the ability (lil ol Moiraine got the drop of Be'lal) and Graendal was definitely stronger than Asmodean blocked, or unblocked I believe , although unblocked it is more of a question and not as certain. Whether it was known if he was blocked or unblocked becomes moot if the killer strikes before he is ready. By Asmodean's now infamous last words surprised seems to fit the bill. He was caught off guard, not expecting to see anyone, much less any of the Forsaken, and seeing the attack was enough to get his scream into the air before he died.

There is more proof for Graendal than any other suspect. The problem is you dismiss it as proof while I accept it. She knew Asmo was dead. Call it provoking Sammael. Call it luck. Whatever. She knew it when everyone else did not. That to me says it plain and simple. I see that as RJ trying to help us out in our search by showing us the multitude of povs that don't know and then one that does. But that is just me and the multitude of fans that disregard that bit of info puts me in the minority.

Anubis: 2005-05-18

Let me get this straight, we have two basic stories...

1. Lanfear was held by for the Finns for X amount of time. Keep in mind that time at this point is completely irrelevant. It could have been, from Lanfears point of view 6 minutes, or 6 years, or anywhere between. She escapes, being reduced in power, Travels to Camelyn, finds Asmodean, and kills him. [Sidenote] Alot of people point out that Rand should have been her target but look at it this way. Lanfear + Full Power + Angreal beats Rand but not by a lot. Lanfear - Power and no Angreal is a Rand snack. [End Sidenote] After killing Asmodean, Lanfear is put into a new body, and reined in by Ishmael/Morridin.

2. Grendal knew about Rands plan to attack Rahvin, went there shortly after the battle, skulked around for a little while, and killed Asmodean.

I favor 1, for a few reasons. Grendal never expressed any desire to kill Asmodean before his death. All the evidence ive seen for Gerendal killing Asmodean comes after book 5, and by book 5 it should have been "obvious". Lanfear is the only forsaken, except perhaps scary torture lady with the name i cant spell, that Asmodean ever expressed fear over. Lanfear was the only Forsaken who know Asmodean was an easy target. Lanfear did it also explains Asmodeans last words, and the Dark One having knowledge of the event.

The biggest hole in the Lanfear did it theory is that we can not prove that Lanfear had escaped Finnland at the time. The thing is, we know she escaped. We just dont know when. I find it wierd that people try to place their own timeframe on things. All the trips we have seen to Finnland, with the exception of Moiraines final one have taken less then a day. I find it hard to believe that Lanfear, with all of her AOL knowledge would not be able to bargain with the finns for release. And if she is going to bargain for release then she is going to do it quickly, not sit around for 2 or 3 books and then negociate.

Callandor: 2005-05-19

**No I deny her cowardice of Rand completely and utterly. I do not think she is afraid of Rand al'Thor at all. I know she doesn't want to confront him head on, but that has never been Graendal's modus operandi anyway.**

Read the quote again, JWB:

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 6 - Threads Woven of Shadow

"Disbelief and scorn twisted Graendal's face. "I serve the Great Lord and obey, Sammael." "As do I. As well as any." "So good of you to deign to kneel to our Master." Her voice was as wintry as her smile, and his face darkened. "All I say is that Lews Therin is as dangerous now as he ever was in our own time. Frightened? Yes, I am frightened. I intend to live forever, not meet Rahvin's fate!"**

Case closed: Graendal is ~FRIEGHTENED~ of Rand. There is nothing said that she doesn't want to face Rand head on -- she doesn't want to be near him!

**However, I see no reason for her not to be in Caemlyn checking up on Rahvin when Rand & Co. show up.**

Besides being baseless and against what the Forsaken plan was?

**But she was brave enough to face the possiblility of running into him in Illian. Why is it so hard to believe she was in Caemlyn?**

Brave enough?! She snuck around only to erase her being there!
And as for why it is so hard to believe she was in Caemlyn, I have repeatedly stated:

She had absolutely no reason to be.

1. Rahvin never dealt with any angreal or stashes, so even using that minor sidestep as a full reason is pathetic supposition anyway.

2. There are no tracks for her to erase from Rand to find out -- the last time she was in Caemlyn was once, and MONTHS before Rand and co. arrived.

3. Her entire purpose in the plan was to be by Sammael and link with him to confront Rand in Illian -- wtf is she just thinking "La la la, let's go to Caemyln unexpectedly and totally disregarding everything anyone says, just because I'm Graendal." Yet, you shower her with brilliance and bravery, and give excuses that paint her as a flousy.

**Yes -- She -- Did**

How?

**Prove to me she couldn't have been. Otherwise you are simply supposing she wasn't.**

It's the idea you enjoy so much. When a Lanfear killed Asmodean thread comes about, I'll give the evidence for her being there first since I'll be a proponent of it -- the ball is your's to be thrown.

**And Lanfear is eliminated by FoH. As of the end of FoH the reader has no inclination to believe she has escaped Finnland, let alone that she might still even be alive in Finnland, let alone that she would waste one of her wishes on trying to kill a nothing like Asmodean when Rand and Aviendha are walking around free. As of FoH the reader has no idea that any of that is even possible, much less likely. Obvious?? Please. It isn't obvious even in WH when we find out that Cyndane is Lanfear reborn in a new body and she was "held" by the Finn (both Aelfinn and Eelfinn).**

1. Not one person has died upon entering Finnland (either of them). So why even begin to think Lanfear breaks this chain?

2. You, along with everyone else, seem to go with the logic that Lanfear is stupid and ~would~ wish to kill Asmodean, instead of being smart and seeing the hate of Rand and wishing to harm ~HIM~ (but, you know, not openly stating "I want to go kill somoene.") and that wish being twisted by the people that do it best.

3. The reader knows all of this is possible by ~THE SHADOW RISING~. Everything for the Lanfear theory is set up by then, and saying it is not known by The Fires of Heaven.

4. ~Anyone~ that enters Eelfinnland gets 3 wishes. It's the asking that might be the troubling part, lending more light to that it was coded, and then twisted by the Finn.

**Prove that she wouldn't kill another Forsaken given the chance or if caught by surprise.**

I thought I already did that. After all, since you seem so caught up with Graendal's modus operandi, and the one other time she came in contact with Forsaken and had easy opprotunity and motive to kill them -- she Compelled them for knowledge instead.

Graendal squeezes for advantage -- she doesn't kill outright, unless I'm assuming it is an absolute last resort (like she has already got the knowledge).

**Prove that she didn't make her own special trip to Shayol Ghul and talk to the DO herself before Demandred did.**

Why, when it is already stated in the books as fact? And what point does this bare, since we know that the Dark One did not order Asmodean's death?

**Prove that her knowledge that Asmodean was dead (when everyone else was so unsure) is a lie.**

Because she lumps Moghedien in there as well. She's either lying or incredibly stupid and jumping to conclusions far too easily.

Plus, and I just love to point this out, Lanfear is not confirmed to have died either -- just appearing to.

**Until you can do that I will continue to profess my belief and support of Graendal as the killer of Asmodean.**

**Strong motive for Graendal? Nae'blis? Seems strong enough for any Forsaken. Look what she did to herself when Sammael was playing his games with the Shaido claiming he had been promised Nae'blis.**

The Dark One did not order Asmodean's death at all, and Graendal just reporting "Oh, Asmodean is dead, give me Nae'blis!" is weaker than Seanchan Kaf.

**As for Asmo's block I see that as also irrelevant to the murder.**

**Graendal was strong enough, especially if Asmodean was surprised and caught off guard, as he was, to balefire him without a problem, or a concern about his own strength. Moiraine was nowhere near Be'lal's strength but her balefire still destroyed him. Knowledge of a block or lack of knowledge about the block seems totally irrelevant to me.**

Why point out Graendal's strength, if it is irrelevant, JWB?

The point that the shield brings into it, is that you're radically supposing that Graendal would go into a situation (for whatever vague reason you wish to blind yourself with) where there is a man she clearly is frightened of, and then where there is also another Forsaken level channeler, for simply that flimsy reason.

Doesn't make much sense.

Also, Asmodean was hardly caught off guard. He had enough time to recognize his killer and speak -- shocked, yes, but enough time to defend himself if it would've made a difference.

** It has always been about the simple fact that you cannot prove she did not do it.**

Which you are flaunting around as if it is proof. At the time you cannot rule out Lanfear or Sammael as well, so what does it prove at all?

**Whether it was known if he was blocked or unblocked becomes moot if the killer strikes before he is ready.**

Which he was ready enough to stop the most basic things, but not obviously balefire (since he didn't have the tools or strength to stop that).

**There is more proof for Graendal than any other suspect.**

No, there is not. There is very general stuff that she just slides through without doing anything for. There is not any indicators in her favor, except for those which you yourself apply out of supposition.

**She knew it when everyone else did not.**

lol. I love how you give provoking Sammael as a reason, yet you do not realize that Graendal ~gasp!~ has lied to Sammael before. And this passes for proof.

**She escapes, being reduced in power, Travels to Camelyn, finds Asmodean, and kills him.**

Just like to point out, that I do not believe that at the time Lanfear killed Asmodean that she was reduced in strength -- that did not occur until she got all her wishes or left Finnland.

**After killing Asmodean, Lanfear is put into a new body, and reined in by Ishmael/Morridin.**

Also, like to point out I do not believe Lanfear ever died, but that's also a sidenote ;).

dedoublya: 2005-05-20

Ok, here's what happened: Graendal, Sammael, Moridin, Shadar Haran, Slayer and Padan Fain are all hanging out in Caemlyn, having a booze up. I don't know why, maybe they get off on the excitement of the danger of being so close to Rand. Anyway, they've specifically told Asmo he's not invited, and he strolls in, and they get pissed off, and all balefire him to death.

But seriously, I don't think we're ever gonna figure this one out. Does it seem obvious to you?

I don't buy this whole, Asmo walking in on someone by mistake thing. I believe someone was definitely there to kill him, anything otherwise is unlike Jordan and the forsaken. Plus it's anticlimatic.

I think maybe the fact that he was cut off from the dark one has something to do with it. And only Lanfear and the Dark One (for obvious reasons) knew about that. Someone's already said that the Dark One didn't order it, so maybe it's nothing to do with it.

I think it's got to be someone with a personal vendetta against Amso, it just doesn't make sense otherwise.

And I agree with those who don't think the block has anything to do with who could have killed him. I think anyone could have killed him, if they were fast enough. They were obviously (to me anyway) waiting for him.

Ok, this whole Lanfear thing. Everyone's treating it as if she entered the door under normal circumstances. My understanding of this isn't very clear. Why is it obvious that on entering the door her and morainne die? Is it because it's on fire? I guess that's a pretty good reason. Anyway, I think, because of the new body that she did die. I think that anything that happened to her, happened to Morainne. If she didn't die, where is Morainne. But I'm sure Jordan's got a few surprises up his sleeve yet concerning that one. Anyway, that's not even for this thread. I'll go read up on it, since I don't know much about it.

clocklotion: 2005-05-29

Question from Vercingetorix: Why do you think everyone has a hard time figuring out who killed Asmodean? Graendal killed him.

Robert Jordan: I don't know why people have a hard time figuring that out. To me it seems intuitively obvious even to the most casual observer. The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much. It's probably bad for me.

Can somebody help me interpret this answer? Is RJ agreeing that yes, it is indeed Graendal that killed Asmodean. But that doesn't seem like RJ's typical RAFO answer. What's happening here. Somebody help me out.

Callandor: 2005-05-29

**Can somebody help me interpret this answer? Is RJ agreeing that yes, it is indeed Graendal that killed Asmodean. But that doesn't seem like RJ's typical RAFO answer. What's happening here. Somebody help me out.**

No. Emphatically now.

RJ is not saying that Graendal killed Asmodean. He is simply agreeing that people have a hard time figuring out who killed Asmodean. This is proven simply because RJ states:

"The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much."

No way in heck would RJ say who killed Asmodean, and then the next sentence that he won't say who killed Asmodean. It's just a pipe-dream for Graendal proponants -- it's the typical RAFO about who killed Asmodean.

Narianna: 2005-06-06

a small point i would like to submit.

all the quotes which show that graendal is a coward are AFTER tFoH.

in the beginning of tFoH when the chosen meet to plot against rand, IIRC graendal showed nothing but contempt for rand/ltt.

however as callandor has pointed out on many ocassions above in LoC graendal is portrayed as plain terrified of rand.

So i submit that perhaps graendal was in caemlyn when rand attacked.she observed the battle between rahvin and rand in the palace and in the TAR.

and perhaps after observing how rand defeated rahvin in the TAR which an "uneducated farm boy" should be uncapable of manipulating and by noticing the strength of the balefire which killed rahvin, graendal panicked.

She knew then that asmo has been ttraining rand and she saw rand defeating someone who is clearly more powerful than her.She then knew that rand is capable of taking out any forsaken.Plainly put she was now terrified that rand might come after her(asmo knew where she was).

thus, this was the motive of graendal remaining in the palace waiting for an opportunity to do away with asmo not only to prevent rand coming after her (she does this again in illian, inspite of the presence of ashamen, in caemlyn there was only rand and avi )

but also to prevent rand from learning anything else from asmo.

This suggestion might explain why graendal was lurking around in the palace in spite of being terrified of rand.btw i believe that asmo surprised graendal in the room where she was hiding.

She could then have used TP to get rid of asmo.(IIRC the chosen were allowed at that point to tap TP)

also for those saying that chosen were afraid of TP, demandered's POV(in CoT) shows clearly that ~in great need~ chosen can and have used TP.

Narianna: 2005-06-06

She might also have used a reversed weave.

Callandor: 2005-06-06

**all the quotes which show that graendal is a coward are AFTER tFoH.

in the beginning of tFoH when the chosen meet to plot against rand, IIRC graendal showed nothing but contempt for rand/ltt.**

1. Please quote it.

2. Why does it matter if our knowledge of her feelings toward Rand come after The Fires of Heaven? They still pertain to that event.

**So i submit that perhaps graendal was in caemlyn when rand attacked.she observed the battle between rahvin and rand in the palace and in the TAR.**

She doesn't need a first hand account of what Rand can do -- the Forsaken all know of what happened to Rahvin.

And, again, why would Graendal be in Caemlyn? By all knowledge we have she should have been in Illian.

**thus, this was the motive of graendal remaining in the palace waiting for an opportunity to do away with asmo not only to prevent rand coming after her (she does this again in illian, inspite of the presence of ashamen, in caemlyn there was only rand and avi )

but also to prevent rand from learning anything else from asmo.**

Why wasn't she in Illian? Why would she be in Caemlyn? How would she know Rand was attacking Rahvin? How would she know Asmodean would come with? How would she know where to be so that she could kill Asmodean, when he himself didn't know where he was or where he was going?

**This suggestion might explain why graendal was lurking around in the palace in spite of being terrified of rand.btw i believe that asmo surprised graendal in the room where she was hiding.**

It does not -- why was she in Caemlyn in the first place?

Tristin: 2005-06-10

As a nice addition to the Graendal / Sammael Killed Asmodean thing check out the Two Servants Theory @ http://encyclopaedia-wot.org:8008/ .

I quote:

The Two Servants Theory

Here it is. This is the first time the theory has ever been posted as a whole in one place. Part 1 explains why one of the two servants was the killer. Part 2 identifies the servants.

The Two Servants Theory Part 1

Of all the theories and discussions on Asmodean's death, I have not seen a single one posted here which explains the very peculiar location, just past a random door in a random hallway. I have a scenario that explains the location. The following diagram is the hallway in the Royal Palace in Caemlyn.

| | ____

| 1 | | |_____

__| |_________________/________________________| |

2 8 3,7 \ 4 \ 5,6

_________________________________________________/ /

| |_____

|____|

It is early morning. Rand is chasing Rahvin.

Walking down a hall, he runs into Queen's Guards led by a Fade and freezes them.

He turns a corner and runs into a couple of servants. This is odd since, the next morning, Rand notes that the servants all ran away and have not returned.

He walks down the hall a little further and ducks balefire. He blows open the doors in front of him and enters a sitting room. He passes through the sitting room and enters a courtyard with a fountain. He detects traces of the gateway Rahvin used and follows him into Tel'aran'rhiod.

That afternoon, Asmodean is sitting by a fountain in a courtyard. He goes looking for wine and passes a wall with balefire damage. On down the hall, looking for the pantry, he opens a small door and gets nuked. The key to the location is that 3 and 7 are the same place. The balefire was only used once before Rahvin and Rand entered Tel'aran'rhiod, so the damage noted by Asmodean must be the same as the first balefire attack on Rand. This being the case, the courtyard with the fountain that Rand entered must be the same as the one Asmodean sat in just before he died. Now note the proximity of 2 and 8. Asmodean was killed a short distance from the place Rand found those two servants.

Conclusion: One or both of the servants killed Asmodean. Obviously, they were more than servants. One or two of the Forsaken stopped by to watch the fun in disguise. After the fight, they hid in a convenient cubbyhole to wait for the dust to clear. Asmodean walked into their hiding place and had to pay. Why wait around for hours? Enough One Power to open a gateway would be detected by Rand and/or Aviendha with unpleasant consequences. Better to wait until late at night when everyone is asleep.

Who were they? Well, that is Part 2.

The Two Servants Theory Part 2

I think I have a new analysis on this question which leads to a previously discounted suspect in addition to the most common suspect. I will start with just two assumptions: 1) the normal whodunit rules of motive, means and method apply and, 2) Jordan's claim of sufficient clues through TFoH is correct. This does not mean eliminate suspects till only one is left. It means a solid case can be built which leads to a specific suspect(s) who had the ability to kill him the way he was killed, had a good reason to kill him, and was probably there to do it.

First, let's look at method since that is the easiest. Even though weakened, Asmodean still had about as much strength as a Wise One channeler. Given his Age of Legends education, he should be a pretty formidable opponent against anyone but a strong channeler. Someone who could strike terror into Asmodean and kill him nearly instantly would almost certainly have to be Forsaken-level.

Motive is surprisingly difficult to start. Asmodean was killed instantly and his body removed. Why? Over and over, the Forsaken have shown they are like cats. They love to play with and torment their victims even when it is a risk. For example, Ba'alzamon with Rand, Lanfear with Rand, Moghedien with Nynaeve, Be'lal with Rand, even Lanfear with Asmodean. The general motive "any Forsaken would kill Asmodean on sight" does not really hold up. There must be something more.

Means provides the real evidence and comes from a host of small coincidences at the end of TFoH. First, we can use the rules of means and motive to eliminate most of the Forsaken. Be'lal and Rahvin were killed with balefire. Aginor and Balthamel are not yet resurrected. Demandred and Semirhage have POV monologues in LoC,Prologue and LoC,Ch6 wondering about Asmodean. Moghedien is collared. Eliminating these seven leaves five: Graendal, Ishamael, Lanfear, Mesaana, and Sammael.

Invoking the rules of means and Jordan's statements, Ishamael, Lanfear, and Mesaana can be eliminated. There is no evidence whatsoever that Ishamael or Lanfear were physically back at all, much less Caemlyn, at the time of the murder. The earliest of the possible new Ishamael's, Shaidar Haran, is not even introduced till the day after the murder in the LoC,Prologue. After falling through the twisted red doorway, the only evidence that Lanfear is even alive is also in the LoC,Prologue where Demandred says that Lanfear, Asmodean, Rahvin, and Moghedien are missing and the Dark One only acknowledges that Asmodean and Rahvin are dead. The appearance of Cyndane makes it all the more likely that Lanfear was dead at the time of the murder. Likewise, I eliminate Mesaana and other incarnations such as Fain, Shaidar Haran, Moridin, The Previously Unknown Bad Guy in Winter's Heart, etc. since there is no evidence that they were in Caemlyn and no reason for them to be in Caemlyn at the time of the murder.

Let's now focus on Sammael and Graendal and a bunch of small facts, potential Jordan clues, which add up to a big picture. First of all, we know that Sammael, Graendal, Lanfear, and Rahvin were consorting and plotting for some time. The Royal Palace palace was one of their meeting places. Most of the action in TFoH stems from their plans. Their basic plan was to goad Rand into chasing Sammael. When Rand attacked, the other three were to be waiting, linked, and take him out. The last we see, TFoH,Ch34, Sammael was trying to renege on his role, but we do not see the conclusion of the meeting. Needless to say, they needed lots of spies to make sure they knew when he would attack. Kadere and Melindhra are the two we know about.

Also, we know that Moghedien kept track of this quartet. She listened in on their meetings in Tel'aran'rhiod. Also, from the LoC,Prologue, we know she set up meetings with Graendal for the day of the killing and the day after.

Now let's carefully examine events just before the killing. It is clear that there is another high level spy with the Aiel who reported to one or more of the Forsaken during the night before the attack. Rand and his party show up in Caemlyn to find the streets deserted and the nearby houses and Royal Palace full of Trollocs and Fades. They were already there waiting when Rand opened the skimming gate. When Nynaeve collars Moghedien, she knows that Rand is on his way to Caemlyn and about when he will arrive. Finally, after a long absence, Lanfear arrives in Cairhien to quiz Kadere right when Rand is planning to leave.

So, which of the Forsaken knew of the pending attack? For sure we know of Rahvin since he had the counterattack ready, Lanfear since she arrived at Cairhien so fortuitously, and Moghedien since she said so. Since Moghedien gets her info from listening to meetings of the four or possibly directly from Graendal, it is very probable that both Sammael and Graendal also knew about it.

Let's envision a meeting between the four sometime during the night before the killing. They've found out that, instead of coming after Sammael in the future, Rand is coming after Rahvin first thing in the morning. Rahvin already has his wards set to detect Rand (because he is suspicious of the others). They send Lanfear to scope out the latest information. They quickly rearrange the plan so Rahvin is the target and the other three will trap Rand.

Moghedien is listening in and catches up on the plan. If she is perceptive enough, loner that she is, to figure out that Rahvin does not trust the others and Lanfear has her own agenda, then surely Sammael, a great general, and Graendal, a psychologist, can do the same. When Lanfear does not return, it is no stretch at all to assume that Sammael and Graendal plan to double cross Rahvin. Bottom line: Both Sammael and Graendal had every reason to be in the Royal Palace during Rand's attack.

Now let's look at more events. When Rand gates directly into the throne room Rahvin "started up in surprise." Why is he surprised? He knows Rand is attacking. He knows that Trollocs and Fades and his lightning will take out some Aiel but are unlikely to get Rand. He knows Rand can Travel. He did not expect Rand to reach him because Sammael and Graendal were supposed to intercept Rand.

Part 1 goes here. It is most likely that one or both of the two servants offed Asmodean.

We have: It is quite plausible that Sammael and Graendal were in the Caemlyn palace. A couple of "servants" were hanging around where they had no business being. Asmodean was killed in a good hiding place, a servants passage, in the same hall.

Scenario: Sammael and Graendal were in the palace to trap Rand with Lanfear. When he shows and she does not, they say "Hey. Let's wait a bit. See who wins. The winner may be so weak we can take him out, too, with little risk." They hang out in disguise to watch the action. When Rand wins, they hide out in the nearest servants passage (remember, the servants have all fled) to wait their chance. Eventually, Graendal has to leave for her meeting with Moghedien, the one Demandred says Moghedien missed in the LoC,Prologue. Asmodean walks in on Sammael and has a natural reaction. What are Sammael's choices? Their plans are in disarray. The last thing Sammael wants is Rand coming after him now. If Asmodean gets away, he will certainly tell Rand and who knows what will happen? Clearly Asmodean has to go. Immediately. Now Sammael has a body on his hands. If he leaves it around, Rand will certainly be suspicious and may guess what happened. Better to remove the evidence.

Of course, Graendal can be interchanged for Sammael in the previous paragraph. Most folks seem to think she is the much more likely culprit primarily citing the scene described in the following paragraph. In addition, there is the possibility that the two servants were a Forsaken and the world's unluckiest genuine servant. If that is the case, then the Forsaken was definitely Graendal as the female servant appeared to be in charge.

We now come to two final tidbits from the last two books. This first point actually weakens the case a little. There are two dialogues in LoC,Ch6 and LoC,Ch23 between Sammael and Graendal mentioning Asmodean, one from each point of view. They both verbally imply they do not know about Asmodean although Graendal states that he is dead. However, neither one clearly states, in their thoughts, that they really do not know about Asmodean. So, possibly, either one could have done the dirty deed. The only point that is clear, from their verbal sparring, is that they did not kill him together. The only reason to lean toward Sammael as the culprit is that Graendal had that appointment. The second point of interest is the scenes with Sammael, Graendal, and Sevanna's crew in ACoS,Ch20 and ACoS,Ch40. For no obvious reason, they adopt disguises and act roles with the Shaido. Note that they avoid being touched as did the woman servant. As soon as they are out of sight, they drop the Illusions. This fits well with Sammael having his normal appearance when Asmodean walks in on him.

There is the case that Sammael murdered Asmodean. The other alternative, Graendal, is slightly less likely, but, given the evidence and lack of other suspects, I feel that one of these two is probably the culprit.

Tristin: 2005-06-10

I'm curious as to what everyone things about the TWO SERVANTS theory in regards to Graendal and Sammael. You can find it if you google Encyclopaedia WOT. Or here: http://encyclopaedia-wot.org:8008/main/theories.html

El Bogarto: 2005-06-10

Hey Tristin -

I'm still on the fence, but I like the two servants theory myself.

A question - Somewhere in LOC or CoS, doesn't Sammael either say or think that Graendal is 'tied to him too closely' to back out now, or something like that? I think it's before the fool box incident.

Perhaps what binds the two together is the death of Asmodean?

Tristin: 2005-06-10

could be, or at least their plan to get Rand. Asmodean does say "its you." not "you two" but i guess you could be two and not just one. :-)

JakOShadows: 2005-06-10

Tristin: That's a good theory there. Probably the best I've heard. It explains all the holes in the other theories too. Nice job finding the details.

haertchen: 2005-06-10

There is one thing to add onto the fire here, that may be somewhat relevant. IIRC, before the attack on Caemlyn, Moghedien tells Nyneve (and someone else) that Rand is planning on attacking Rahvin (that's why Nynevae and Moghedien end up there), but that it's going to be a catastophe because Rahvin is prepared for him, somehow. How does Moghedien know this? We know from LoC that Graendel and Moghedien were meeting regularly (Graendel says Moghedien didn't show up for their meeting.) This points in the direction that Graendel knew all about what was actually going on, and would have had some time to make plans of her own.

The thing about this argument that drives me batty is that the forsaken's plans are always oversimplified; they are all playing their own game. We know of one plan four forsaken were willing to share with each other. Lanfear had her own gig on the side. Why not the others?

I also question the use of Graendel's quotes to prove her real relationship to Rand. She's trying to scare Sammael. It's a game of one-upmanship, and even if the evidence she is providing is generally true, she still spins it in ways to manipulate Sammael.

On the other hand, I've pointed this out before, but with Cyndane, people have forgotten it: The link between Lan and Moiraine was broken at the docks. I thought that was proof positive she was dead, which likely meant that Lanfear was as well. Alternative explanations were well beyond my understanding, then. The obvious test for Lanfear failed, badly, then.

Callandor: 2005-06-10

**I'm curious as to what everyone things about the TWO SERVANTS theory in regards to Graendal and Sammael.**

It's as pitiful as any other Graendal theory: it lacks motive and reason.

And it has the added throw in of Sammael, whose actions in Lord of Chaos don't make the most sense if he was even semi-knowledgable about the event.

**This points in the direction that Graendel knew all about what was actually going on, and would have had some time to make plans of her own.**

It's actually the opposite:

Moghedien obviously learned of the information on the day, and she failed to meet Graendal. Hence, Graendal is left with nothing.

**On the other hand, I've pointed this out before, but with Cyndane, people have forgotten it: The link between Lan and Moiraine was broken at the docks. I thought that was proof positive she was dead, which likely meant that Lanfear was as well. Alternative explanations were well beyond my understanding, then. The obvious test for Lanfear failed, badly, then.**

And I still don't see why anyone ever even thought Lanfear or Moiraine died.

1. Who has died upon entering into either Finn worlds/dimensions? No one.

2. The doorway melted after they went through it -- all it does is make it so they can't go out that way instead of dying.

3. Lan's bond has three explanations for why it is hardly obvious she died:

A. Moiraine released the bond.

B. The melting of the ter'angreal effected the bond causing it to dissipate.

C. Moiraine was stilled/burnt out.

The first I don't particularly believe in, but it might be something Moiraine did as a nice thing for Lan -- not making him deal with everything similar to a death. But that doesn't go along with what happened later on.

The second I favor, simply because I believe that when someone goes into either of the Finn worlds/dimensions through the doorways they must leave by the same means. Why this is could easily be because that is the way the doorways function and/or it's part of the agreement.

The closing of that exit for Moiraine could've had similar effects on her bond to stilling (but not actually stilling). Lanfear of course is unaffected for not having a Warder. The two are then held in Finnland.

People immediately point to Moiraine going through the doorway in Tear and it not affecting the bond, but that's easily explained because that doorway did not melt ;)

The third is of course the most popular for people. Was Lanfear affected by this in a similar way? Maybe, possibly, who knows let alone if it did in fact happen. Have to wait a bit still.

But the obvious test is not an open and shut case that everyone loves to make it for Lanfear. We have no reason to suspect she died right then and there for overwhelming factors to other people going in and out of Finnland already.

Tristin: 2005-06-11

I've always believed Lanfear was stilled on the way through by Moiraine ripping away that angreal bracelet. Asked for the OP back and was given Moiraine's. Thus the stilling. It also means Moiraine could be around or still in there depending on what she wished for and what was taken from her.

Balinor: 2005-08-24

I agree completely, Graendal killed Asmodean. It makes a lot of sense. A lot has been made of Graendal being a coward, but killing someone as they open a door is a pretty cowardly act. I think Graendal killed Asmodean simply because she IS a coward. Here's my theory: Graendal is staying close to Rahvin, so that they can be ready when Rand goes to confront Sammael (that's their plan, remember); or, Rahvin and Graendal are planning something on their own, and she happens to be in the palace to visit Rahvin when Rand shows up. We have no idea how long Asmo's killer was waiting. Then, when all Hell breaks lose, Graendal goes to ground somewhere in the palace so that she can avoid Rand (who she's apparently terrified of). Then, when the smoke clears, she hangs around a little longer because she's afraid Rand or Asmo might sense her Travelling away and follow her. Remember, the other Forsaken think that Asmodean is a traitor; they (except for Lanfear, and she's not telling) don't know how Asmo's link with the DO was severed, they don't realize Rand needs training (except for Ishamael, they all think of him as LTT, so why would he need training?), and they don't know that Asmo has been shielded by Lanfear. So, if Asmodean stumbled upon Graendal accidentally, she would have been just as afraid of him, and probably would have killed him out of reflex. So, yes I think Graendal killed Asmodean, but not because she stalked him and killed him, but because the opportunity presented itself and she was afraid.

Callandor: 2005-08-25

**A lot has been made of Graendal being a coward, but killing someone as they open a door is a pretty cowardly act.**

But going into a city where two Forsaken stronger than herself were just battling it out is not a cowardly action. It's either extremely brave -- or incredibly stupid. And Graendal is a coward when it comes to Rand, and people seem to believe she's not stupid.

** Here's my theory: Graendal is staying close to Rahvin, so that they can be ready when Rand goes to confront Sammael (that's their plan, remember);**

But the plan was never to meet in Caemlyn -- they would be in Illian. Rahvin wasn't there because he didn't trust the situation.

**or, Rahvin and Graendal are planning something on their own, and she happens to be in the palace to visit Rahvin when Rand shows up.**

Any basis for this claim at all? Rahvin distrusted the Forsaken -- that's the reason he wasn't in Illian, so why would he be secretly working with Graendal?

**Then, when all Hell breaks lose, Graendal goes to ground somewhere in the palace so that she can avoid Rand (who she's apparently terrified of). Then, when the smoke clears, she hangs around a little longer because she's afraid Rand or Asmo might sense her Travelling away and follow her.**

Why wouldn't she just flee from the city, like a whole lot of other people were, and Travel away due to being terrorfied of Rand (there's no "apparently" about that part ;))? Why on earth would she stay in the Palace where the battle is taking place?

**So, if Asmodean stumbled upon Graendal accidentally, she would have been just as afraid of him, and probably would have killed him out of reflex.**

We've only seen Graendal kill one person, off screen: Kimura, at the Cleansing. Everyone else, she uses. Oh, no doubt she's killed others, but she uses them first. Even when she's suspicious of Cyndane and Moghedien's actions in The Path of Daggers, when they come to take her to Moridin, she doesn't kill them -- she uses Compulsion on them for information. Asmodean as a traitor or not, he's a trove of knowledge that Graendal could use.

And fear him? Once again, why didn't she leave the Palace if she was truely afraid? Why would she wait around? Her reason for being in Caemlyn is completely unbased, and a reason for staying there is even more so.

JakOShadows: 2005-08-26

Callandor: The truth is we really don't know what was going on at the moment. I don't think the reason was because Greandal coward that she was caught, but if we change the scenario it would actually make sense. Rand and Rahvin have their duel, then she comes a few hours later when she suspects it is safe to see what happened. But she isn't totally sure of the outcome, so when she sees Asmodean out of jumpy nerves she kills him before she really even sees him. I don't think Greandal was afraid, but I do think that she might have been nervous of the situation to inspect it and be a little "trigger happy" as a result. And you also have to remember a lot of this is speculation. When he brought that he didn't bring in any new evidence that I have seen, which leads me to say that neither side can be called a well supported theory. Mostly it comes down to speculation and events that might have happened, so we'll have to read to find out.

KaraK: 2005-08-26

A few people have mentioned here that Greandal couldnt be in the frame because of her cowardice - however this only holds if it was she personally doing the killing.

My pet theory for a while has been that the actual instrument of Asmodean's death was a Gholam. He would be equally terrified of one of those as he would be of someone who could channel since channelling doesnt affect the Gholam.

Callandor: 2005-08-27

**Callandor: The truth is we really don't know what was going on at the moment. I don't think the reason was because Greandal coward that she was caught, but if we change the scenario it would actually make sense. Rand and Rahvin have their duel, then she comes a few hours later when she suspects it is safe to see what happened.**

But that is the entire point:

Graendal would NOT waltz into an area where Rand is in the middle of a battle or anywhere near a battle

Look at these quotes:

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 6 - Threads Woven of Shadow

"Disbelief and scorn twisted Graendal's face. "I serve the Great Lord and obey, Sammael." "As do I. As well as any." "So good of you to deign to kneel to our Master." Her voice was as wintry as her smile, and his face darkened. "All I say is that Lews Therin is as dangerous now as he ever was in our own time. Frightened? Yes, I am frightened. I intend to live forever, not meet Rahvin's fate!"**

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: 23 - To Understand a Message

Her mind worked furiously. He must have had that promise. He must. But why him? No, there was no time for speculation. The Great Lord chose as he wished. And Sammael knew where she was, at least. She could flee Arad Doman, establish herself elsewhere; it would not be difficult. Giving up the little games she played there, and even the larger games that might have to be abandoned, would be a small loss compared with having al'Thor--or Lews Therin-- come after her. She had no intention of ever confronting him directly; if Ishamael and Rahvin had fallen to him, she was not about to risk his strength, not head-on. Sammael must have had the promise. If he died now.... He was certainly holding saidin--he would be mad to say these things otherwise--and he would feel the instant she embraced saidar. She would be the one to die. He must have had it. "I... do not know where Demandred or Semirhage is. Mesaana... Mesaana is in the White Tower. That is all I know. I swear it."

A tightness in her chest loosened when he finally nodded. "You will find the others for me." It was not a question. "All of them, Graendal. If you want me to believe anyone dead, show me a corpse."

She very much wished she dared turn him into a corpse. Her gown rippled through violent shades of red, echoing the anger and fear and shame that rippled through her uncontrollably. Very well, let him think her cowed for the moment. If he fed Mesaana to al'Thor, if he fed them all to al'Thor, so be it, so long as that kept al'Thor from her own throat. "I will try."**

Face the facts: Graendal does not want to come anywhere near Rand by herself. And you propose that she went in an area where he was (somehow knowing he was there, as well), and either during a battle with a Forsaken of his strength if not the aftermath. Please.

And don't even try to link this to Graendal going to Illian. Completely different situation. In Illian, if Graendal did not go there to remove links to her, Rand would've easily came after her (at least to her justification). She's being 100% consistant -- she's doing anything at all to maintain her survival, and not being a target of Rand al'Thor.

Her going after Asmodean, or whatever fictious prize in Caemlyn, no matter how you try to spin it (planning, adventageous, surprised, whatever), is completely inconsistant with her firm desire to survive. She's going to the lion's den, to Rand al'Thor, for nothing more than whatever you can place her there in (which is entirely supposition in the first place); she's not going there to maintain her survival.

**And you also have to remember a lot of this is speculation.**

That Graendal was frightened into doing anything to stay away from danger from Rand al'Thor, is not. That's a solid fact.

**My pet theory for a while has been that the actual instrument of Asmodean's death was a Gholam.**

No.

1. Gholam is not obvious as of The Fires of Heaven (IE: the moment Asmodean dies, as RJ said it should be), because the gholam was completely unknown until Lord of Chaos.

2. Why would Asmodean address a gholam as "you"? At best, it would be an "it," especially if he knew it was a gholam, which he wouldn't be afraid if he didn't. Heck, even in the gholam's own point of view in The Path of Daggers, it refers to itself as "it" or "the gholam."

JakOShadows: 2005-08-27

Callandor: I'm not saying it would be in character for her to go and kill Asmodean. I'm saying it was possible in the circumstances. I'm saying that Sammuel and Graendal being the only two forsaken that we know are plotting against, it is possible that she did it. Now I do think that Sammuel would be much more willing to do something like this than Graendal, I was just saying it wouldn't be outside the realm of speculation.

Callandor: 2005-08-28

**Callandor: I'm not saying it would be in character for her to go and kill Asmodean. I'm saying it was possible in the circumstances.**

If it's not in Graendal's character, and consistant with that completely, it's just you supposing and making up baseless possiblities.

You can say everyday from now on that Graendal might have been in Caemlyn, and all I will be saying is that she was not, because she would never go there, because she is a coward when it comes to issues about Rand. And you've already admitted that is true.

So, why continue arguing?

**I'm saying that Sammuel and Graendal being the only two forsaken that we know are plotting against, it is possible that she did it.**

Plotting against what?

**Now I do think that Sammuel would be much more willing to do something like this than Graendal, I was just saying it wouldn't be outside the realm of speculation.**

Once again, since you've already admitted it would be extremely out of character, and contradictory to Graendal's statements, yes, I feel it's quite out of the realm of speculation.

Lauric: 2005-10-08

**Now let's look at more events. When Rand gates directly into the throne room Rahvin "started up in surprise." Why is he surprised? He knows Rand is attacking. He knows that Trollocs and Fades and his lightning will take out some Aiel but are unlikely to get Rand. He knows Rand can Travel. He did not expect Rand to reach him because Sammael and Graendal were supposed to intercept Rand.**

How does he know Rand can Travel without 'knowing' the spot?

Robert Jordan Blog:

"Now as to Rahvin sitting on his throne and being shocked to see Rand. First off, he knew his first trap hadn't worked, but he had others ready. He saw no reason to start jumping about. He thought he was maneuvering Rand into a series of traps, one of which he was sure would work. He did not expect Rand to simply leap into the same room with him. He did not expect Rand to know that he could Travel to somewhere in sight of himself without knowing the ground. So what he had expected to be a chess game where he knew the positions of all the pieces and Rand did not suddenly turned into a close-quarters slugging match. Surprise!"

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raendal killed Asmodean

by MatCauthon: 2005-05-02 | 3.95 out of 10 (20 votes)

Previous Categories: Who Killed Asmodean

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