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smodean's Long Fall
by Stilicho: 2006-02-14 | 3.85 out of 10 (13 votes)
Previous Categories: Who Killed Asmodean
The purpose of this theory is to reveal the method of Asmodean's death. It is not intended to take an overt position on WHO did the killing, although I recognize that the method may affect the ability of some suspects to have accomplished the deed. With that caveat...
Asmodean died by being pushed/thrown (or otherwise forced into) and/or was Balefired while in the void-like area through which a Skimming platform travels. What is the nature of this void?
Quote (FOH): "Rand stepped through the gateway, and it vanished. He was standing on a disc, a six-foot copy of the ancient Aes Sedai symbol. Even the black half of it seemed lighter against the endless darkness that surrounded him, above and below; he was sure that if he fell off, he would fall forever. Asmodean claimed there was a faster method, called Traveling, for using a gateway, but he had not been able to teach it, partly because he did not have the strength to make a gateway while wearing Lanfear's shield. In any case, Traveling required that you know your starting point very well. It seemed more logical to him that you should have to know where you were heading well, but Asmodean seemed to think that that was like asking why air was not water. There was a great deal that Asmodean took for granted. Anyway, Skimming was fast enough. "
This is our introduction to Skimming and the description of "endless darkness...above and below" is the void-like area I'm referring to. Further, Rand's feeling that, if he fell, he would fall forever is a solid clue and/or foreshadowing of the result of falling off the platform. This conclusion is supported in ACOS:
TITLE: Crown of Swords CHAPTER: 12 - A Morning of Victory:
"Weaving a gateway where he had been practicing the sword, a good eight feet by eight, she stepped through onto what seemed to be a ferry, floating in darkness that stretched forever. Skimming required a platform, and though it could be anything you chose to imagine, every sister seemed to have one she preferred. For her that was this wooden barge, with stout railings. If she fell off, she could make another barge beneath her, although where she came out then would be something of a question, but for anyone who could not channel, that fall would be as endless as the black that ran off in every direction."
Now that we know the result of falling off a Skimming platform, let's examine the reasons for this to be the method of Asmodean's demise. Quote (Tam's Question to RJ): "Tam: Since you said at an earlier signing that the Dark One couldn't have brought back Asmodean if he wanted, was that at the time of Asmodean's death, or after that? RJ: The Dark One couldn't bring back Asmodean because of the combination of 2 factors: HOW HE DIED and WHERE HE DIED. Not one or the other, both factors."
Obviously the how and where of Asmo's death affect the ability of the DO to recycle him. Where, then, is the DO's access to souls limited?
Quote: TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Message
"THE CHOSEN DWINDLE, DEMANDRED. THE WEAK FALL AWAY. WHO BETRAYS ME SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH. ASMODEAN, TWISTED BY HIS WEAKNESS. RAHVIN DEAD IN HIS PRIDE. HE SERVED WELL, YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME. For an instant terrible anger filled that awful voice, and, could it be frustration? An instant only. DONE BY MY ANCIENT ENEMY, THE ONE CALLED DRAGON. WOULD YOU UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE, DEMANDRED?"
The answer is that any soul that is "outside of time" so to speak, is beyond the DO's grasp. This quote also gives us an example: Balefire. However, the earlier quotes regarding the nature of the void beyond a Skimming platform also indicate that that area is outside time as well because a fall that lasts "forever" or is "endless" indicates a phenomenon that is outside any linear or non-linear timeline. Thus, this satifies the WHERE portion of the RJ quote.
As for how, perhaps Asmo was Balefired while in the void, or perhaps RJ had a different meaning when he stated that the HOW was a separate factor. Balefire is an obvious answer, but (and this I believe to be the case) the HOW could also refer the effects of falling off the Skimming platform as well (i.e. separating from/moving outside of time as you recede from the platform). Of course, even if Balefire was used, I think whoever did the deed would want to be far from Rand when they did it if they were going to use that much of the One Power, because the killer would not want to attract the close personal attention of an on-edge Dragon Reborn, who had just recently Balefired one of the Forsaken (Rahvin) who had really irritated him. While the amount of the power used to create the opening from the platform may have escaped Rand's notice, it is also possible that one of the Forsaken decided to risk using the True Power in order to avoid dectection entirely.
Finally, RJ himself gives us another clue when answering a question regarding the possibility of recycling Asmo: "RJ: Asmodean went for the long jump in that scene.†Simply put, the "long jump" refers to Asmo's "endless" fall through the void which killed him and put him beyond the DO's grasp. Further, Asmo’s very limited access to Saidin was insufficient for him to channel another platform to save himself.
Ok folks, have at it.
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2006-03-21
I had forgotten about that question I asked him...Dragon Con really gave us a lot of information. :) And, by the way, the use of your last quote, Stilicho, is the best part of the theory...I like it, a "long jump", hah! On the boards, when I got back from Dragon Con, I brought up this quote about the How and Where. I fought a legitimate battle regarding Balefire, on its own, fulfulling both requirements, the How and Where. I like the idea that the Skimming Space was used; so, we need the answer to a question or two, now, such as: can a channeler create a platform in the Skimming Space, if they have fallen off into the Void? We do know that Asmodean died, and the manner of his death prevented his transmigration, so getting pushed into the void and then balefired, seems a bit more complicated than simple balefire...and the Skimming Space isn't a necessary location...you have to answer how the Skimming Space has anything to do with preventing transmigration? How does this "Where" affect transmigration? I guess you could push that dying in the Skimming Space, could affect transmigration, but that would be another question we would need answered...(I guess we can hope for another Dragon Con.) :)
Saidar Haran: 2006-03-21
I like this theory. It makes sense. Now, I would say that there is a possibility that, since the Skimming Space is a place where the Black Cords can be seen, (I know that Asmodean's were already severed) it may have other properties we don't know about that might prevent transmigration.
Traveller: 2006-03-21
I agree- I think that Jordan was probably sniggering when he talked about his "long jump" as well!
However, I am slightly confused about how, if he was not balefired, then surely he was not technically dead till, oh I don't know, howver long after he fell, through lack of water or something. And this bothers me. It doesn't seem tidy enough for him not to die instantly. But that's probably just me being a bit wierd. Sorry.
snakes-n-foxes: 2006-03-21
I like the basic concept of this theory.
Now that you’ve mentioned it, I’m a little curious about what happens to time while you are inside the void. There seems to options to me:
1. The most likely option (to me) is that ‘time stands still’ in the void…so that you would exit the void at the exact same moment that you entered it.
2. The other option is that time passes in the void…but that seems to defeat the purpose of it being a ‘void in reality/the pattern’ (which is what I presume it is) – as time passing in the void would tie it to reality/the pattern.
Now if ‘time stands still’ in the void (per 1) then there seems to be a further 2 options:
1.1 The most likely option (to me) is that ‘time stands still in the void’ is relative only to the pattern – or in other words, you would age while you are in the void…so if you stayed in the void 20 years (and could survive that long) before exiting, you would exit into the real world 20 years older than when you entered the void.
1.2 The other option is that you don’t age at all in the void.
In relation to option 1.1 - This option would literally put someone ‘outside of time’. Now if Asmo’s body is ‘falling forever’ inside the void…then obviously he can’t emerge, and is therefore stuck outside of time – beyond the Dark Ones reach.
Ishamael666: 2006-03-21
The problem I see is that Asmo wasn't in the Skimming space. He was wandering around the Palace looking for some wine. He opens a door, shouts "You? No!", and dies immediately. No where is it indicated he opened a gateway.
snakes-n-foxes: 2006-03-21
My apologies, just realised option 2. isn't clear. For option 2, I meant that time passes in the void at the sime time it passes in the real world.
HawkeWolfe: 2006-03-21
Everyone talks about how no one could have Balefired Asmo without Rand or, in the case of a female killer, one of the Aes Sedai/any female channeler detecting that much One Power being used. But what if the killer wrapped Asmodean up so he could not move, opened up a skimming portal, made a platform and went in with Asmodean and then once the entrance was closed then Balefired Asmodean while in that void. Then no one would have noticed that much One Power being used and there would have been no trace residue of the Balefire ever being used in the Palace. Plus the killer leaves with no one ever knowing. We know that some Aes Sedai can sense the residue left behind when the power is used, especially when great amounts of it have been used. Balefire would have been noticed by a channeler whether male or female, but the question now becomes: How much power does it take to open a skimming portal and would any other channeler have noticed? If it was negligible then this becomes a plausible theory, but if it takes a large amount of power then someone would have felt that like they would Balefire. The one problem I see with this is how RJ worded that Asmodean's death was as if he died instantly instead of there being any time lag. I do not have the book with me, so I cannot quote the paragraph where Asmodean died, but I do remember how it was worded and the impression was that death was instantaneous. Of course this is assuming that a Channeler is the killer. I have read the "Slayer is the killer" Theory and that also explains why no body was ever found, since Slayer could have put taken the body and transferred it using the dream world. He could have dumped the body anywhere that way. Nice theory, but still too many unknowns and assumptions.
Sharom: 2006-03-21
The main problem I see with this theory is the supposition that the void where skimming occurs is outside time. Yet all evidence from the books show that it is not. Whenever someone skims from place to place, time goes by, and at the same rate as it does in the rest of the world. So it doesn't really seem that they are 'outside time.'
The one place that IS outside of normal time in Randland is the World of Dreams. It has been repeatedly stated that while there time passes at its own rate and with little or no resemblance to the passage of time in the rest of the world. And hour there can be a day in the real world or vice versa.
Therefore it seems that for Asmodean to have been killed 'outside time' it must have been in Tel'aran'rhiod.
ThunderWalker: 2006-03-21
Not sure if the skimming place is outside of time. Wasn't there a reference of eventually dying of hunger if you fell? Also, Asmodean's shield not to strong at this point. Even if partially shielded, he should be able to manage a stepping stone. But who knows where he would come out (if he had strength enough to open a big enough doorway).
Of course, that begs the question: Can a chaneller open a doorway out of the traveling place if a different channel wove the gateway into it? The answer may be yes. After all Rand wove an identically configured gateway as Asmodean, and was able to see him in the skimming place. On the other hand, Rand used Asmodean's gateway to exit, not his own.
What if the killer pulled him into TAR? And did something to him there. Doesn't work with the "long jump" quote though.
Stilicho: 2006-03-22
Well, the idea that the skimming void is outside or somehow disconnected from "normal" time is the basis for thinking that it is beyond the DO's reach for soul recycling. We know the DO wants to undo time itself and remake the universe in his own image. I suspect part of his motivation is the fact that time acts as a constraint on his power and, level-headed, humble gent that he is, he finds that situation intolerable.
mako0424: 2006-03-22
Umm, i like this thoery...ish.
I think the RJ quote about the Long Fall is very telling.
Ok so how about , to avoid Rand sensing balefire being used, a Skimming gate was opened and as he was pushed, his head was sliced off or something particularly nasty, so he died imeediately and his body and soul were lost in the Void of the SKimming space thus fuflfilling both the Death's How and Where.
We know strong channelers, like Forsaken, who probably did this can do things like this because Cyndane does it to some poor sap right before Saidin Cleansing. dont have my books on me, but i remember she didnt have time to tie up loose ends, so she opened a gateway, sliced his head with Air and pushed his body away from her so as not to get blood on her.
It would seem plausible that Asmo could be sliced and pushed all at the same time, very quickly too, and i like this because Forsaken are scared of using balefire, worried about Rand sensing the use of balefire, and would prevent Asmo from being reincarnated as well as particularly cruel to think of him falling forever.
Napoleon the Clown: 2006-03-22
Really, the concept of Asmodeon going through a Gateway into the skimming world isn't too far-fetched, IMO. I would imagine that it takes far less of the OP to open one than to balefire a person. And for him dying while his scream still hung in the air, let's not forget that many Black Ajah can easily kill with the OP by stopping the heart. If I remember correctly, it states that at least a few Forsaken could as well. It very well could be that Asmo bumped into a wandering Forsaken or the like and had his heart stopped, thus being dead because of no pulse and no blood pressure. That's a clean manner of death, and then just dump the corpse into that endless abyss.
I think I'm for this basic concept. It sure solves the problems of the body and no comments on OP usage. And it's fun to think that Asmo's body will fall until the DO wins or an unsuspecting Skimmer has it land on their platform.
Callandor: 2006-03-23
Balefire itself is far more obvious I'd say.
**While the amount of the power used to create the opening from the platform may have escaped Rand's notice, it is also possible that one of the Forsaken decided to risk using the True Power in order to avoid dectection entirely.**
But if a gateway for Skimming might escape Rand's notice, why not just balefire?
**Simply put, the "long jump" refers to Asmo's "endless" fall through the void which killed him and put him beyond the DO's grasp. Further, Asmo’s very limited access to Saidin was insufficient for him to channel another platform to save himself.**
How's that? We're not told that there's a set amount that's necessary, just that another channeler could make another platform.
stb: 2006-03-23
I really like this theory. The "You? No!" line could have actually gone something like this.
Asmodean opens a door, someone that he recognizes, BUT that he doesn't know can channel, has just opened a gateway and is floating away on a skimming platform. He says "You?" as in "You can channel?"
At this point he looks down Wile E Coyote style, realizes that there is no ground under him and takes the long fall while screaming Nooo! The gateway closes but Asmodeans scream is still echoing (or hanging in the air if you will)through the hallway in the palace.
Erenas: 2006-03-23
I also agree that this theory could not be possible. He was in fact wandering the palace when he saw someone and within two words was dead. There is no indication that he did anyhting or that the other person did anthing, but remember Rand severed his connection the Dark One and perhaps this is why the Dark One can't recycle him into another body. And if he could would the link to the Dark One be reformed.
evilbeaver: 2006-03-23
You guys are forgetting one thing: The words were still on his lips when death took him.
Asmodean died as he was speaking. He wasn't pushed into a void falling endlessly.
Stilicho: 2006-03-24
"How's that? We're not told that there's a set amount that's necessary, just that another channeler could make another platform. "
There are lower limits, or floors, for every action taken with the OP. Morgase, can hardly do anything. Travelling requires a certain amount of strength. Skimming is also strength dependent and the stronger you are, the bigger the platform you can make. Morgase could never Skim, and it's unlikely that Asmo could have either or he would have escaped long before his death.
Erenas: 2006-03-24
Not necessarily the person who killed him had to know where he was goign at the time it happened. Although I don't know who it might have been I highly doubt that it was another channeler because of this if they were channeling somethign Asmo would have felt it. He is a male channeler liek Rand so if teh attacker could channel and was male he woudl have sensed it beign that close to it. Or if it was a female he would have sensed it by the tingling, I believe he was killed physically but quick enough that he could do nothign about it and that the words still hung in the air. I don't believe this means they were echoing it just means he died while saying the word. Now we just have to decide who can kill someone so fast and efficiently that they don't have time to finish their sentence.
Callandor: 2006-03-25
**There are lower limits, or floors, for every action taken with the OP. Morgase, can hardly do anything. Travelling requires a certain amount of strength. Skimming is also strength dependent and the stronger you are, the bigger the platform you can make. Morgase could never Skim, and it's unlikely that Asmo could have either or he would have escaped long before his death.**
This is very problematic for many reasons.
1. You're essentially saying that Asmodean was as strong as Morgase. That's hardly the case. Morgase can barely channel to move a streamer -- Asmodean could actually weave consistantly, do simple things like lift goblets with Air, weave Illusions, could weave Healing (like on Rand after the Battle of Cairhien), and defend himself with the One Power (like in Caemlyn from the Trollocs). Asmodean is hardly comparable to Morgase. Asmodean is pathetically weak compared to Rand and many others, but he's no where near Morgase's level.
2. You're saying it's all strength in the Power. We're not told that. In fact, we're told opposite:
**TITLE: The Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 54 - To Caemlyn
Four paces was as large as Rand could make it. There were limits for one man by himself, Asmodean claimed; it seemed there were always limits.’ The amount of saidin you drew did not matter. The One Power had little to do with gateways, really; only the making. Beyond, was something else. A dream of a dream, Asmodean called it.**
3. Again, balefire makes much more sense, is less complicated, and appears to be far less detectable in comparison to a gateway.
ThunderWalker: 2006-03-26
Can balefire be created using inverted weaves? That is, could someone have masked their ability, and used an invered weave to kill Asmodean? If so, then no one nearby would "feel" anything.
ForsakenRahvin: 2006-03-27
I would say that the Skimmming idea works fairly well.
Balefire wouldn't work (unless it was into a skimming area). On many accounts you hear of them using it, and it cuts not only through the target, but for a seemingly endless distance past them. If Balefire was used on Asmo, you would think that whatever was behind him simply would have been gone, but it never mentioned such.
By the way, Tel'aran'rhiod is not the only place that time seems different. There are also the waygates. They were used often earlier on in the books, and it always mentioned that you could travel hundreds of miles in a couple days down there (not to mention when RJ described coming out of the waygates, which I loved).
Ishamael666: 2006-03-27
That would be called a reversed weave, not inverted (which is done to a tied-off weave after it's been woven), but yes, that's possible.
mako0424: 2006-03-27
Thats one interesting point. Balefire, when it down't hit a living thing, seems to pass on forever, like in Tanchico, where it decimates columns and the palace, but it seems if it hits a person, it stops when the person fizzles into nothing.
Balinor: 2006-03-28
What does Asmodean being recycled have to do with his death? Asmodean was NEVER going to be recycled by the DO. Unfortunately, I don't have my books here, but I believe the quotes I want are in the beginning of Book 6 where Demandred is summoned to Shayol Ghul, and Book 5, in numerous conversations between Asmodean and Rand. The DO considers Asmo a traitor; the black cords which bind him to the DO have been severed. The DO doesn't know that Asmo didn't sever the cords himself, and frankly he doesn't care. I'm not sure if there's a quote to back this up, but I believe Lanfear spread a rumor among the other Forsaken that Asmo changed sides willingly. Therefore, being a traitor to the DO, the DO is NOT going to use his resources to recycle a traitor into a body that might be needed for a faithful Chosen.
I believe Asmodean has deduced the DO's feelings about traitors himself, as he mentions in his conversations with Rand. Asmo keeps assuring Rand that he won't run away, basically by saying that he has nowhere else to go. He's considered a traitor by the DO, so his life is forfeit to any Forsaken that catches him.
So the question of whether the DO COULD recycle Asmodean is irrelevant to the manner of his death; the DO WOULD NOT recycle Asmodean at all, because he's considered a traitor.
JakOShadows: 2006-03-28
The idea about the inverted weave is possible, but I wonder if it would be logical to use. Because Asmodean just wanders in there, the killer is either stalking them and wants to be quick about killing them, or else they are caught by surprise. In either case, inverting a weave would take a lot more time to do thana quick reaction. They would have had to have the weave prepared ahead of time, and I didn't think balefire worked like that either. It just seems like a bit of a strech. And also, Rand only feels a tingling sensation, and at a long distance it would be hard to sense. And we don't have the point of view of another female channeler, in the case that it was Lanfear. If it was Moridin, he could have used the TP, so that could not have been sensed at all by anyone. So there is really no proof of inverting the weave at all.
Coral: 2006-03-29
Though I like your theory quite a lot, I see one problematic point. To Skim, one has to know the target place and to Travel the place of origin. The murderer, therefore, most probably traveled to Caemlyn. And from RJ's bloq we know:
"For several people. Nynaeve could Travel after depositing Lan in Saldaea because she had “learned†that spot by Traveling to it. Remember, if someone Travels to a place, they now know the place they have Traveled to as well as if they had spent time there learning it."
So I guess it would be easier for the murderer, whoever he/she was, to Travel from Caemlyn, instead of Skim. So if Asmodean suprised him, it wouldn't be at weaving a gateway for Skimming, but Traveling.
Ishamael666: 2006-03-29
About reversing the killing weave:
Asmo was most likely too far away from Rand/Aviendha to have a weave sensed. It's immaterial and irrelevant whether the weave was reversed or not.
Ishy as said the DO can control any soul. Though he might have been lying, we have no evidence to contradict this. Recycling without black cords should present no problems for a near-omnipotent being.
but, of course, the DO says Asmodean has "died the final death", "outside of time". And the Skimming space seems to fit this criteria.
Another point: We're much more familiar with Skimming at the time of FoH than we are presently, when Traveling has replaced it. this would seem to heighten the "obviosity" that Asmo was killed in a Skimming space.
Stilicho: 2006-03-29
Balinor, whether the DO WOULD want to recycle Asmo is immaterial to this discussion because RJ has said that the DO COULDN'T recycle Asmo even if he wanted to. RJ:
"The Dark One couldn't bring back Asmodean because of the combination of 2 factors: HOW HE DIED and WHERE HE DIED. Not one or the other, both factors."
You are mostly likely right about what the DO would want to do regarding Asmo, but since RJ gave us a clue by saying that it was beyond the DO's power anyway, that clue becomes relevant to our discussion here.
What the Aelfinn Said: 2006-03-29
I think you guys have the right idea generally, but are missing the mark. Balefire alone could take care of this quandary. Let's drop the "but someone would have sensed it" argument and just assume balefire for a moment. Now think back to where Asmodean was a little while before arriving in Caemlyn: he was skimming there with Rand, Aviendha, Mat, and the Aiel. If the balefire had been of sufficient strength - and here we have to recall just how balefire works - it would have burned out his thread BEFORE that moment, all the way back to a point at which he had been skimming to Caemlyn, thereby "killing" him in the endless black void. This would not impact the plot in any way because even after someone has been balefired, their actions cease to be but their memory remains, so Rand et al would remember him as having arrived and fought, etc. If you look at it this way, there is no need to explain why someone would bother to open up a gateway and shove him into the void, no need to wonder if a shielded channeler can still conjure up a platform, and no need to argue over how "death took him" instantly if he was falling for eternity. Balefire killed him, burning his thread out of the pattern back far enough so that he ceased to be on the Skimming trip from Cairhien.
Callandor: 2006-03-29
**Can balefire be created using inverted weaves? That is, could someone have masked their ability, and used an invered weave to kill Asmodean? If so, then no one nearby would "feel" anything.**
It probably can be reversed (not inverted), however, balefire seems to be unique in that people from both sexes can sense it's use -- Moiraine in Rhuidean mentions that she can still sense Rand's balefire, and Rahvin comments that he would flee a Forsaken meeting a hint of balefire from either Graendal or Lanfear. So, even if it was inverted it possibly could've been sense just by itself.
However, that being said, we're not told of the distances involved and the strength used (which would seem to be relatively small -- no Rand to Rahvin sized balefire streams) so many factors can make it hard to detect for our channelers, if not impossible.
**Balefire wouldn't work (unless it was into a skimming area). On many accounts you hear of them using it, and it cuts not only through the target, but for a seemingly endless distance past them. If Balefire was used on Asmo, you would think that whatever was behind him simply would have been gone, but it never mentioned such.**
Balefire doesn't always do this. If the balefire is small enough, it can stop on it's own once it hits its target, or the person can just cut the weave off right away to get the same effect.
**What does Asmodean being recycled have to do with his death? Asmodean was NEVER going to be recycled by the DO.
...
Therefore, being a traitor to the DO, the DO is NOT going to use his resources to recycle a traitor into a body that might be needed for a faithful Chosen.**
Because Jordan didn't say that Asmodean wouldn't be returning because of what he did -- he said it's because of how and where he died. We've got two known examples of this: Balefire and Mashadar, and Asmodean wasn't in Shadar Logoth at the time (and this is a posited third).
Plus, Lanfear was practically a damn traitor, too. She was transmigrated and mindtrapped -- problem solved. The Dark One needs all the Forsaken he can get, so if he could've transmigrated Asmodean he probably would've seen the benefit of it: another commander. Granted, Asmodean did more things than Lanfear did to garner "traitorship" but still.
**So the question of whether the DO COULD recycle Asmodean is irrelevant to the manner of his death; the DO WOULD NOT recycle Asmodean at all, because he's considered a traitor.**
It's not irrelevant -- it's essential. It's not that the Dark One wouldn't transmigrate Asmodean, it's that he COULDN'T. That gives us insight into how Asmodean was killed. Whether the Dark One would've if he had the power to or not is the irrelevant question -- we know he couldn't in any case.
**If it was Moridin, he could have used the TP, so that could not have been sensed at all by anyone.**
Any Forsaken could've used the True Power -- Moridin was annoited, and the restriction put in place, around The Path of Daggers to Winter's Heart (it's before the Forsaken Coffee Hour in Winter's Heart at least, and probably before Cyndane and Moghedien gather up Graendal).
Ozymandias: 2006-03-29
I think the whole idea of the Skimming Space idea brings up an even cooler point. Asmodean may not even BE dead. He could just be on the "endless fall" (since its endless, he could still be falling. If he had the strength to build a platform under him, well, he's got no idea where its coming out. And he certainly isn't powerful enough to make a gateway yet, maybe not even still.
The Dark One never even says he's dead! He just says "TWISTED BY HIS OWN WEAKNESS". The DO is not omnipotent. He may assume Asmodean is dead because he's not with Rand and hasn't reported in. Never do we have a certain assertion that he's dead from a person who would know.
JakOShadows: 2006-03-30
Ozymandias:
RJ has stated that Asmodean died, so as cool as your idea sounds, he is dead.
ForsakenRahvin: 2006-03-30
We DO however have proof that he is dead. RJ himself. "HOW HE DIED and WHERE HE DIED.." Seems pretty obvious from that that he is dead... :\
dweeb: 2006-03-30
It has been how many months? Do you suppose he's channeling steak and mai tais on a regular basis?
minalth: 2006-04-21
asmo may have died of dehydration...
I recon someone wove a gateway to the skimming space with a reversed weave on the other side fo the door asmo was walking through so when he opened the door he stepped onto said person's skimming platform and was so scared he made the 'long jump' off the platform and into the void where he was either killed by the platform's owner or died of dehydration.
his words only hung in the air back in the palace where the gateway had closed.
Green Man 22: 2006-04-25
For everyone who keeps talking about Balefire as the method for killing Asmodean, remember the answer that RJ gave to Tam... "The Dark One couldn't bring back Asmodean because of the combination of 2 factors: HOW HE DIED and WHERE HE DIED. Not one or the other, both factors."
Not one or the other, right? Well, as it was said by the Dark One, "HE SERVED WELL, YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME."
Because balefire would make it impossible for the Dark One to transmigrate Asmo no matter where it was used, that method by itself would be the reason the DO couldn't bring Asmo back. RJ explicitly said that it is BOTH factors, the how AND the where that determine that the dark one cannot reach Asmo.
Therefore, either the method for killing Asmo had nothing to do with balefire, or RJ blatantly lied in his answer to Tam's question. As we have no reason to believe that RJ lied, we then know that balefire was not used.
JakOShadows: 2006-04-26
Green Man:
That quote doesn't preclude balefire. It can viewed as a figurative thing, where the balefire also took Asmo back to a different place in time. So it could be him using a play on words, because we have been bugging him about a while now. And the where could also mean the him being in the wine cellar is supposed to hint at something. And then the how would still have an affect. So I don't think that quote can prove that balefire can't have been used. Now it does cast doubt what is so important about how it is done. It definitely hints that the place he was murdered is more important to the situation than we are making it out to be.
Green Man 22: 2006-04-27
JakOShadows:
So you are saying that balefire could have been used on something else, therefore causing Asmo to be taken back in time and then killed? I don't have any problem with that, but I still assert that balefire itself could not have been used on Asmodean. Because if it was used directly on Asmo, the method would still be the only reason and you would have a problem with the combination quote.
Tamyrlin: 2006-04-29
Green Man, after receiving this answer from Jordan, I thought about balefire and came up with what I think is a reasonable way balefire still fits the requirements. As Jak O mentions, Balefire is not the only ingredient. Balefire, if it is small enough, can still be overcome by the DO. If the balefire is not strong enough, the DO can still grab the soul. So, it depends on where in time Asmodean died, not only that he was killed by balefire. You could say it two ways. Where did Asmo die in the palace, or where in time, both fitting Jordan's requirement, because where in time the balefire removes the individual, is key.
DEMONIC EMPEROR: 2006-05-04
Asmodean did not die in the skimming void. although he may have been balefired.
some might say he was balefired enough to stop exsiting at the time he was in the skimming void. this is wrong. there was no mention of balefire damage where he died. so some say the balefire was refined to stop after it killed asmo. fine, that could have happened, but as we see when Rand kills dark hounds with balefire, a precision amount will only erase a few moments out of the patern, no where near powerfull enough to throw asmo back hours to the point he was in the skimming void.
therefore balefire is possible, but not to the extent needed to erase him from the skimming void (SV).
to this some may say, he was pushed/power carried, into the skimming void and then balefire. this is also not possible. the quote from tFoH is that he was wandering around the Palace looking for some wine. He opens a door, shouts "You? No!", and dies before the words begin to fade. no time to be power wrapped brought into the SV and balefired. he was dead immeadiatly after saying NO!. not as good as dead...not dying. he was dead then and there. no time for being forced into SV then killed.
so, what we now know is what we knew before, balefire is a possibility (probability) but the skiming void had nothing to do with asmo's death...
this theory's not a bad idea...just wrong.
minalth: 2006-05-10
To me the 'long jump' sounds like suicide, sounds like he jumped on purpose...
Maybe asmo had an inverted or reversed (or whichever is appropriate, i can't remember) weave ready to kill himself if he saw one of the forsaken... after all, he knows what semi is like and would be pretty scared!
Trahelion: 2006-05-11
I like this theory and I agree with it. I know somewhere that I read that anyone who can channel can open a platform from underneathe them, but they don't know where it will open too. Asmodean could have been pushed into the Skimming space, and because of Lanfear's block, not have enough strength to open another platform beneath him. THere are a number of possibilities, I believe, but I think this is a legitimate possibility.
Darelas: 2006-06-09
OK, so, the Ways... they also extend forever. Why has no one mentioned that the Skimming area could very easily be the same area as the ways? It would explain why it is so dark there. Also, if it is the same area, then Machin Shin (sp?) could theoretically move all throughout the area, and that is why sometimes it is nowhere near the travellers in the ways. If Asmodean was falling in that pocket outside of time, and was devoured by Machin Shin, isn't it entirely possible that his soul is trapped there and thus unable to be recycled? This would better explain WHERE and HOW than some convoluted idea of being balefired in the Skimming place. I mean, is there anyone who doesn't think this would be major overkill?
Anyway, if anyone has any info why The Skimming zone can't be the same zone as the ways, I would love to hear it. It's too easy to explain why the Waygates which are physical doorways would have the strange effect they do, while a gateway wouldn't. One is Ogier made the other is a product of the one power and governed by different rules. As an example, time moves differently in TAR. yet a gateway can be opened there without a time distortion effect. I'd like to hear more on this if anyone is up for it.
JakOShadows: 2006-06-10
Darelas:
I do believe that the skimming void and the void between the waygates is the same. They were both made using the one power, I believe the only difference would be that the waygates are permanant gates. Of course then there is that bit about shadowspan not being able to travel in KoD. But it is possible that they can't travel directly, but can skim. Basically put, I believe you are right, but there is no where it is specifically mentioned in the book. So I would call this a pet theory.
And as to the how and where, I don't think it had anything to do with a skimming space at all. As people have pointed out a lot, it is possible RJ is having some fun with by the How(balefire) and where(in time) it would apply. And then he could also be refering to the fact that Asmo was heading towards the pantry at the time. In this situation, a simpler explanation can work as well as complex one.
Khazhul: 2006-06-12
The Ways and the Skimming space are not the same. You mention how both are dark but the Ways were not always dark according to Loial. Remember he said when people used to travel the ways it was in light with grass under thier feet at the islands. He also stated the gates used to shimmer with a mirror like reflection but now they are murky and dark. Of course we don't have much in the way of what the Skimming space used to look like since no one used it or recorded it's use from before the ways went dark who would be able to make the comparison except the forsaken and LTT memories. LTT never says anything and neither did Asmodean when he was Skimming with Rand. But that doesn't prove it one way or another.
Another reason I believe they are different is because it seems to take longer to travel the ways than it does to skim. Now you are going to say that the skimming space has moveable platforms where people have to walk in the ways but if you remember the first time Rand used the skimming space was in TEOFTW where he made steps to chase after Aginor/Belal? Can't remember which one died first. That moved him a good deal of distance quite quickly.
Finally, the last reason I don't think they are the same is because when channeling in the Ways even female channelers remark on the feeling of the taint there. There has been no mention if that feeling when they skim themselves.
Tamyrlin: 2006-06-13
It has been noticed, in the past, that the Ways and the Skimming Space share certain characteristics. In fact, I pushed a theory involving this years ago. I recommend this study a group of us put together on T'A'R, if you are interested. click here. Anyway, in essence, I believe that the male Aes Sedai that created the ways used the Skimming Space as a location to construct the Ways, manufacturing artificial light, and hard wiring specific locations to doorways.
Karede: 2006-06-20
I'm really not sure about this because Asmodean could have been killed with a knife through the heart from all the books tell us. It doesn't matter that Asmodean was not reborn b/c he wasn't favored by the DO enough for that priviledge.
JakOShadows: 2006-06-22
Karede:
the reason a lot of us assume it is balefire is because he talks about Asmodean being beyond reaching. So if he can't put Asmo back into a body, the obvious assumption is balefire. The skimming space is possible, but very unlikely given the fact that we don't know much about it in the context of this theory.
RandtoLews: 2006-06-25
The Void for Skimming is not free of time. Time flows diffrently in the void. As refrenced in a number of places in the series when anyone uses the Void either to travel or Skim it is space that gets compressed. Remember Rand Explaing Travelling to Egwene where he brings together his two fingers to show how he brought the two locations together.
So the void is not out of time as made clear above.
Secondly TAR is also not out of time as mentioned a number of places it just flows differently "An hour there might be day in our world or vice versa".
So that leaves only one option; and no it is not "Balefire".
HeronMarkedBlade: 2006-06-27
I think the part of skimming is on the right lines. However, im sure asmodean could do something to help himself. Unless he was blocked from Saidin first. Then he would truely be helpless.
JakOShadows: 2006-06-28
Karede:
At the time he wasn't a darkfriend, but he has had a strong connection made with the DO considering he was one of the forsaken. So since he had that previously, I believe it is still possible that he could be transmigrated. And also, if it were because he turned to the light, I think he might have used different wording.
tLoC pg 5
"The Chosen Dwindle, Demandred. The Weak Fall Away. Who Betrays me shall die the final death. Asmodean, twisted by his weakness. Rahvin dead in his pride. He served well, yet even I cannot save him from balefire. Even I cannot step outside of time."
To me, the fact that he mentions them both in the same paragraph means that it goes beyond Asmo helping Rand. He compares their death in such a way that shows he is incapable of reviving Asmo. And plus, if he is so worried about them dwindling, why doesn't he use the mindtraps or some other means of control? Not to mention, he hadn't turned completely to the light either; but rather followed along because he didn't want to be killed. So I believe that he could have been revived under better circumstances.
Sampson: 2006-07-05
Pushing him into the VOID sounds sorta cool. But I do not see the point.
(1) To create a skimming gateway you must be able to channel.
(2) If you can channel, then you can remove a body any number of more efficient ways.
(3) I think the only way we have seen time affected is.
a. The ways
b. The portal stones
c. Balefire
d. Vacuoles
(4) All the ways we have seen time affected has not ever “Stopped†time. It has either been slowed or sped up. But not stopped. Balefire “reverses†time.
(5) But if somebody falls into the void while they are alive, they would fall until they starved to death or heart attack etc.. But when they finally do die, why wouldn’t they be placed back into the bucket (i.e. the Aiel who fell) to be recycled? Like you said the black cords existed in the void.
(6) The DO knows that Asmodean is dead. He was talking about Rahvin when he referenced the ability of not being able to step outside of time. He didn’t recycle Asmo because he had his connection severed from the DO.
I really like that people are still thinking and trying to find some kind of closure with Asmodean. But I think we all have made it way more complicated than it really is. KISS is what is needed.
Asmodean was killed.
Asmodean’s body has not been recovered.
There has not been any POV that states they have killed Asmodean.
Asmodean was killed by somebody he recognized.
Graendal & the DO are the only POV’s that state Asmodean is dead. Everybody else “thinks†or “believes†that he is dead.
We do not know who killed him.
We do not know why they killed him.
We do not know how they killed him.
It’s intuitively obvious that we do not have enough information to solve this mystery. It is also intuitively obvious that finding out who killed Asmodean is an exercise in futility and it will not affect the plot or the story in any way.
Here is a question – why hasn’t any of the Chosen asked what happened to Asmodean? Even if they know he is dead and that he turned, he was a Chosen and had plans to rule forever. I would imagine that somebody would try and use the situation to their advantage some how. Even if it was just blaming him for something or to throw everybody off a little. But nobody has even asked the question, seems sorta shady in its self.
JakOShadows: 2006-07-05
Sampson:
The reason they never used his death for any alternative purpose could be because he turned against them. Knowing how harshly the forsaken can be punished, I could see why they would stay away from that situation completely. Where as Sammuel is not so much of a touchy area to mess with, so you see them using him as a disguise .
CyberFade: 2006-07-10
The Skimming place used in the murder seems overly complex since it requires a channeler who would have better options. If the implication weren't there that death was quick, sure.
Curious why people think making a platform in the Skimming place requires channeling, the books seem to suggest something more along the lines of TaR (see Rand's or Egwene's descriptions in FoH or CoS respectively). For getting in or out, a Gateway must be channeled so far as we know, but without another Jordan retconn--which is possible, maybe suggested by his quote--I have a tough time buying it.
jonevri: 2006-07-20
It was mentioned that the killer would not wish to use Balefire where Rand or one of the Aes Sedai could feel it. I never really understood this but, could the killer have masked their flows? In KoD the sisters say they could not feel Lean turning the chain to Cuendillar. I do not know if I misunderstood or some weaves can not have that done to them or what. I do like the theory and it makes sense to me.
JakOShadows: 2006-07-22
jonevri:
In KoD, they were alluding to the fact that Leane was masking her ability to channel. They could feel the channeling and but could not see the person doing it.
ForsakenRahvin: 2006-07-23
**Thats one interesting point. Balefire, when it down't hit a living thing, seems to pass on forever, like in Tanchico, where it decimates columns and the palace, but it seems if it hits a person, it stops when the person fizzles into nothing.**
Why then does Robert Jordan Write this in KoD:
Knife of Dreams: Ch.32
"This," Birgitte said, gesturing ot the scene in front of them. Guybon had begun to trot, pulling the other with him, the three ranks holdin gsteady in their advance, others comin gas hard as they could to join them. [b]Abruptly a leg-thick bar of what appear to be liquid white fire shot out from one of the women beside the wagon. It quite literally carved a gap fifteen paces wide in the lines."[b]
I don't know about you, but that sounds to me like it made a GAP, meaning it cut THROUGH those men, not stopped at the first ones. Would that not mean that the Balefire went straight through them, as I stated before?
So in that case, taking that as an example, why would the Balefire only consume Asmodean, instead of going through him and however far it goes afterwards like it did with the men in that battle, aside from inconsistancies from the author (assuming there may be some there)?
HxC Scarecrow: 2006-07-23
okay, when it comes to balefire, correct me if im mistaken, i thought the person using it could unravel the weave used to create it at a visible distance, before it merely died out by itself.
Prince of Ravens: 2006-07-24
It depends on the channelors control. IIRC Rand learned with the darkhounds in Rhuidean to kill them with balefire and not burn holes in all the walls throughout the city ...
JakOShadows: 2006-07-24
Rahvin:
That would depend on the power. That ter'angreal the BA used creates a very powerful balefire and also bear in mind they don't have much practice at it since they have to resort to using a ter'angreal anyway. Remember when Rand was trying to consciously control it in tFoH, and it gets out of control very quickly. And that's after quite a bit of practice, but if practiced enough it can be controlled. It just won't be an instinctuall thing.
Callandor: 2006-07-24
Depending on how strong the balefire is, is what decides if it stops after it hits the first target or continues. The ter'angreal that creates balefire creats "leg think" balefire -- the strongest we've seen second only to Rand's use against Rahvin. Other times, like with Rand and the Shadowspawn after killing Rahvin, the balefire stops after hitting it's target because it is weaker.
So from what we know it's depending on how much of the Power one used against Asmodean, when any amount of it will have the same effect. (As an aside, no one is suggesting it was a titanic amount of balefire, otherwise what Asmodean did for quite some time would've been undone). The smallest available amount would've killed him just as easily as Rand's amount he used on Rahvin.
jae: 2006-07-25
can i just say, why would one of the forsaken have used balefire to kill asmo, from everything we have seen they are very reluctant to use it, the only real time it has been used, that we know of, was by rahvin in the last defence of his life. Why would they use balefire when any method of death would be just as effective. Its not like they need worry about transmigration if the DO doesnt want that.
The only real benifit of balefire is to wipe out a past action, this doesnt seem to be the case as it seems that all his actions of the past few days are still intact, and secondly instant disposal of his body. now if it was a forsaken they could just either tavel or open the skimming space, as they would do to escape anyway and then achieve the same goal, to me anyway balefire doesnt seem to be to logical choice in this case.
ForsakenRahvin: 2006-07-25
True true, but the strength of of the Balefire also depends on how much of the thread is burned out of the pattern like you said Callendor. Since everything Asmo did didn't get undone, then it would have been a small amount of Balefire.
But that means that the DO would have been able to bring him back from death, like he has done with others.
To contradict my beliefs, maybe it has something to do with the fact that Asmo's link to the DO was cut, and since his thread was burned out regardless, he wouldn't have been able to bring Asmo back to life?
See, now my brain hurts. Thanks Callendor.
JakOShadows: 2006-07-27
Rahvin
The thing is those cords are just a link to the DO. It is not required to have them transmigrated I don't think. It might make it easier, but it quite possible with out them too.
Callandor: 2006-07-27
**But that means that the DO would have been able to bring him back from death, like he has done with others.**
To be frank, the idea continually passed around that balefired Forsaken would be returning is ridiculous. I don't recall seeing the precise quote of the statement, just a referment but someone I'd trust to tell the truth.
In any case, the Dark One has no interest in bringing Asmodean back, he has said that Asmodean is dead, and it's completely possible he wouldn't do any such thing specifically because Asmodean betrayed him.
Finally, we've seen none of the new people matching up to Asmodean, and just wildly assuming he's somewhere amongst the world is useless.
CyberFade: 2006-08-06
Callandor: Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small.
Found here: wotmania linkweek 3 (because Tor's site links redirect to the current set of questions instead of older ones, bleh)
Callandor: 2006-08-06
And unless you want to make the case that Be'lal is somehow still kicking around in a new body, even Moiraine's amount of balefire is enough.
Anubis: 2006-08-16
**I think Asmodean was killed by Padan Fain with the dagger.**
From what we have seen of Padan Fain's dagger, it kills people rather slowly. They scream in agony and are eaten by something resembeling a fungus or disease. The entire process takes at the very least a few seconds. The passage states that Asmodean's last words were still hanging in the air when death took him. How do you account for the discrepency?
JakOShadows: 2006-08-17
rand:
I'm pretty sure RJ has said at a book signing that Padan Fain was not the killer. I don't have an exact quote, but that is definite proof against him. And if not, it is still a stretch that he was involved with if you consider he can't travel. Not to mention he is not as potent a killer as the other suspects. It is a stretch to even place him there and that doesn't include to trying to provide a logical motive. To me, Fain is definitely not the killer.
rand: 2006-08-19
Anubis,
A stab through the heart or neck still kills instantly I'd say. As for a motive, Fain could have sinced Rand at the palace. He went there, got in in all the confusion, and hid in a room. Then he senses Rand coming nearer to him. However, he doesn't realize that Rand is a floor above him when the door opens. He lunges before he even relizes the mistake. He now has to leave right away or risk being caught, so he stuffs the body in a box and leaves out the back servants door.
Callandor: 2006-08-19
**A stab through the heart or neck still kills instantly I'd say. As for a motive, Fain could have sinced Rand at the palace. He went there, got in in all the confusion, and hid in a room. Then he senses Rand coming nearer to him. However, he doesn't realize that Rand is a floor above him when the door opens. He lunges before he even relizes the mistake. He now has to leave right away or risk being caught, so he stuffs the body in a box and leaves out the back servants door.**
1. A stab in the chest doesn't leave one's words hanging in the air after they are dead.
2. You're working under the supposition that Asmodean died right underneath Rand -- that is not said at all. We do not know where Asmodean truly died, save that he was looking for a wine room, and was killed. We don't know what room it was in, but he was moving away from where Rand was; Asmodean left from basically right under Rand.
3. You're assuming a body that is bloated and black isn't going to be noticed. Look at how it was noticed in Far Madding. Are people just not going to check rooms anymore in the palace after all this time?
4. Jordan has already said that Fain did not kill Asmodean.
Anubis: 2006-08-19
**A stab through the heart or neck still kills instantly I'd say**
You would say this, and you would be wrong. These things do not kill instantly. It still takes time for the person to bleed out.
Wonderer: 2006-08-22
Disregarding who killed Asmodean for now (I'll get to that momentarily) I have a small problem with balefire leaving the victim with a fading voice. While it hasn't been established Asmo was killed in that fashion Be'lal certainly was. As I understand balefire, it removes the target from time even back into history slightly. If that is the case, wouldn't the poor unfortunate's last words inevitably be erased as though never uttered. Now, that was going to be my case against Asmo being killed by balefire until someone pointed out the correlation with the other Forsaken's final word. I still say balefire couldn't have been the instrument of death if for no other reason than it was fast becoming cliche at that point of the story. This may or may not be significant, but I feel it is worth pointing out. Asdomean died twice. I apologize if this has already been pointed out but the fact remains the same. Rahvin killed him the first time but he was resurrected when Rand balefired him. Who knows what effect that had on the DO's claim on him.
He also clearly knew his killer. "You?" indicates a certain degree of familiarity and the blood draining from his face along with the "No!" makes me think he knew what was coming. Those simple facts rule out several suspects immediately. I doubt the sight of any of his recent companions or any of his fellow Chosen would elicit that kind of response no matter how much a coward he was (after all, he had just resigned himself to eventual death). I realize this claim has been made here and on other threads before, but I say the prime suspects are Isam/Luc or the gholam. I would even go a step further to eliminate Slayer simply for the reason there have been ample opportunities for him to reveal himself, killing a Chosen has to be an honor and Asmo died too suddenly to be pulled into the dream world first. That leaves the gholam who I think can kill quickly as well as brutally and could well elicit a terrified response from a channeler who recoginized it. A messy corpse may well go unremarked in the palace considering the days events not to mention a gholam may decimate a body so severely, identification becomes impossible. That brings me to the "You?" rather than "It?" Who in God's name says "It?" when referring to anything. I have many times cried out "You bas****!" at a faulty car or computer knowing full well "It" is far more appropriate aside from being in third person rather than second.
It has been noted that the gholam had not yet been introduced to the WoT universe when the murder occured, but what better introduction can such a character (or perhaps plot device?) have than spawning a topic of such intense discussion. As for Robert Jordan saying his innability to be revived by the DO had to do with HOW and WHERE he died they may very well mean the same thing. How he died was outside the Dark One's graces, the same could be said of where he died. Granted this is a rather far-fetched conclusion but no more so than thinking he died in Skimming Space.
Mindl: 2006-09-29
It seems to me that the "long fall" quote from RJ indicates that Asmodean died in the Skimming space. Since it is possible to open a gateway vertically, shouldn't it also be possible to open a skimming gate vertically under someones feet? Just open it up and let them fall forever. Also, if it was one of the Forsaken that he encountered they might have wanted to get rid of him in such a way that the DO couldn't bring him back.
JakOShadows: 2006-10-02
Mind!:
It just seems like there are much better ways to kill a person than, whether it was planned or not. I think he was just messing with us on this quote. It wasn't meant to be taken directly like this.
Mindl: 2006-10-02
Yeh, I can see him saying that to mess with our heads. However, opening a skimming portal under Asmodean is a quick and dirty way to make sure that the DO can't bring him back. To remove Asmodean from the pattern with balefire like Rahvin was removed, would take a huge amount of the OP. That much of the OP would surely be felt by someone. If saidin was used then Rand would have felt it for sure. If saidar was used maybe someone did feel it, but is keeping mum. Not likely, but possible.
Anubis: 2006-10-02
**It has been noted that the gholam had not yet been introduced to the WoT universe when the murder occured, but what better introduction can such a character (or perhaps plot device?) have than spawning a topic of such intense discussion. As for Robert Jordan saying his innability to be revived by the DO had to do with HOW and WHERE he died they may very well mean the same thing. How he died was outside the Dark One's graces, the same could be said of where he died. Granted this is a rather far-fetched conclusion but no more so than thinking he died in Skimming Space.**
You know, we really need to make a FAQ about Asmodean's death, including everything that RJ has said on the subject so people don't post stuff like this.
JakOShadows: 2006-10-04
Or they could just to the Wheel of Time FAQ site found in the links section. A lot of fun reading there; and it would also save us a lot of typing I bet.
cokehn: 2010-06-23
it could have been the ghrolm...asmodean would have know what or who they were and the can sense chanelers..so why not?
Thom as cain: 2010-06-27
I like the idea of the skimming void explaining Jordan's "long jump" comment, but the balefire cannot be part of the solution, simply because, to fall, you have to exist. If you recall, balefire ends with the person exploding in to thousands of "motes", very small things, which then dissipate. If Asmodean had been balefired, he wouldn't exist, and so wouldn't be able to take Jordan's, "long jump", you should continue along other HOW lines of thinking, but I really think you may be onto something...