gwene, the Tower, Mat & Tuon
by Karasien: 2005-09-16 | 5.56 out of 10 (9 votes)
Theory: After the battle for the Tower has been completed and the Rebel AS have been reinstated, Egwene as the rightful Amrylin, Mat will “give” Tuon half of the Tower's Aes Sedai, those that are to be tried for treason, or Black Ajah, what have you. How? Or better yet, why? Well Mat has become the Uber-General , he would see stilling these women as a waste of a powerful weapon. (Not to mention that Mat has no love for Aes Sedai to start with)
Now why would anyone of the Aes Sedai allow this? Especially Egwene or the Hall?
Well, despite their flaws and delusions of grandure the Aes Sedai can see the sense in some things, even when they do not agree. By allowing these women to be given to the sul'dam, they will be properly punished and brought to proper civility, as well as remaining a useful and able bodied weapon for TG.
Now you may ask, why is this a theory and not a prediction? Well, it all goes back to the Half the light to save the world quote:
"To marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons!"
"To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was!"
"To give up half the light of the world to save the world!"
Together they howled like steam escaping under pressure. "Go to Rhuidean, son of battles! Go to Rhuidean, trickster! Go, gambler! Go!" - the Aelfinn, to Mat, tSR ch.15, p.253
I know that the most common theory/belief is that Half the light is Mat's eye, but to be honest, I really see it as a symbolism thing. As I will explain a little later. So without further ado, lets jump into my twisted way of thinking.
First, an interesting quote:
"Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended.... She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps. There had been other dreams, most tinged with suffering. Recently, all of her dreams about Mat were pale and full of pain, like shadows cast by nightmares, almost as though Mat himself were not quite real." - Egwene, tPoD ch.15, p.344-5
Now I don't know how many different ways that you all have interpreted this, or if you just ignore it, but obviously a big decision, something that could “make or break” the world, will depend on his descion on Aes Sedai. Nicely fitting with my theory of giving them to the Seanchan, right? Then again, this could just be the girls, and whether or not he will save them. (Let's not get me tearing down my own theory just yet though)
Alright, now something else. Why, you may ask would the Aes Sedai be the “Light” in this little prophecy? Well consider this, the White Tower has stood for over three thousand years as the force against Shadow, despite what the common people think . Proof of this can be found in the Three Oaths, and this is just a little bit to reinforce the belief.
"That we swear these oaths, that we are known to be bound, allows the nations to deal with us without fearing that we will throw up our own power, the One Power, against them. Between the Trolloc Wars and the War of the Hundred Years we made these choices, and because of them the White Tower still stands, and we can still do what we can against the Shadow." - Sheriam, tGH ch.23, p.335-6
Yes, we all know that the Aes Sedai are not as bad as everyone thinks, but we also know that they are not as good as they like to think, but still they are as close as it comes to being the Light for Randland. This is one of the main reasons that I have proposed this theory, that and because I absolutely HATE the idea of Mat losing an eye, he's just to cute for it to happen. (Haha, yes, I am in love with Mat, if anyone, from the WoT)
Hmmm.... You say, that is all very well and good but you still have not really provided solidity on the point that Egwene, as Amyrlin, would ever allow anyone to be leashed, especially as she herself hated it. Well, for that I offer up this next quote:
"She was struggling up a narrow, rocky patch along the face of a towering cliff. Clouds surrounded her, hiding the ground below and the crest above, yet she knew that both were very far away. . . Abruptly, the ledge dropped away from under her with the crack of crumbling stone, and she caught frantically at the cliff, fingers scrabbling to find a hold. Her fingertips slid into a tiny crevice, and her fall stopped with a jolt that wrenched her arms. . . There was no strength in her arms. She could not pull herself up, only hang there by her fingertips until she fell. The edge of the crevice seemed as sharp as a knife under her fingers.
Suddenly a woman appeared, clambering down the sheer side of the cliff out of the clouds, making her way as deftly as if she were walking down stairs. There was a sword strapped to her back. Her face wavered, never settling clearly, but the sword seemed as solid as the stone. The woman reached Egwene's level and held out one hand. "We can reach the top together," she said in a familiar drawling accent. - Egwene, CoT ch.20, p.493-4
While, yes, this could be interpreted as Egwene needing the Seanchan to reach her goal, most likely a united Tower. But who is to say that it cannot just as easily be that the goal they are trying to reach is victory at TG. Either way, Egwene must get over her disagreement with their cultural beliefs. Now whether It is the first or second interpretation you use, still, an understanding must be reached in order to get to the “top.”
Another form of proof that the Seanchan will have something to do with the reconstruction of the Tower:
"She was climbing another path along a cliff shrouded in clouds, but this was a broad ledge of smoothly paved white stone, and there were no rocks underfoot. The cliff itself was chalky white and as smooth as if polished. Despite the clouds, the pale stone almost gleamed. She climbed quickly and soon realized that the ledge was spiraling around. The cliff was actually a spire. No sooner did that thought occur than she was standing on top of it, a flat polished disc walled by mist. Not quite flat, though. A small white plinth stooed centered in that circle, supporting an oil-lamp made of clear glass. The flame on that lamp burned bright and steady, without flickering. It was white, too.
Suddenly a pair of birds flashed out of the mist, two ravens black as night. Streaking across the spire-top, they struck the lamp and flew on without so much as a pause. The lamp spun and wobbled, dancing around atop the plinth, flinging off droplets of oil. Some of those drops caught fire in midair and vanished. Others fell around the short column, each supporting a tiny, flickering white flame. And the lamp continued to wobble on the edge of falling. - Egwene, CoT ch.20, p.495
Aside from that, we also know that Egwene will attempt to destroy the Tower, maybe not on purpose, and maybe not in a literal sense, but still, destroying customs as strong as law has the same affect. For instance, allowing a woman of any age to be entered in the novice book, removing the oaths and retiring to the Kin, rather than just retiring, and (as I choose to believe she will do) changing the Three Oaths. Why do I come to this conclusion? Here ya go:
"She stood before an immense wall, clawing at it, trying to tear it down with her bare hands. It was not made of brick or stone, but countless thousands of discs, each half white and half black, the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai, like the seven seals that had once held the Dark One's prison shut. Some of those seals were broken now, though not even the One Power could break cuendillar, and the rest had weakened somehow, but the wall stood strong however she beat at it. She could not tear it down. Maybe it was the symbol that was important. Maybe it was the Aes Sedai she was trying to tear down, the White Tower. Maybe..." - Egwene's dream, aCoS ch.10, p.250
Alright, you sya, so you have managed to lossely explain the reasons behind the Tower allowing it, not well, but we'll let it slide, just to see where this is going. Now what about Mat's eye, we have been waiting patiently, now tell us.
"Those about Mat had been even nastier. Mat, placing his own left eye on a balance scale. Mat, hanging by his neck from a tree limb. There had been a dream of Mat and Seanchan, too, but she was willing to dismiss that as a nightmare. It had to have been just a nightmare. Just like the one about Mat speaking the Old Tongue." - Egwene, tDR ch.25, p.290-1
"And the other one - a red eagle, an eye on a balance scale, a dagger with a ruby, a horn, and a laughing face." - Min, about Mat, tEotW ch.15, p.216
"Another dream. Mat throwing dice with blood streaming down his face, the wide brim of his hat pulled low so she could not see his wound, while Thom Merrilin put his hand into a fire to draw out the small blue stone that now dangled on Moiraine's forehead." - Egwene, tFoH ch.14, p.300-1~
Now, I ask you, why do you so badly want to blind poor little Mat? Even if you do not, the majority of people are taking this left eye business much to seriously. I mean really, most things that Min sees have a symbolic reason, and a Dreamer is no different. So here is what I purpose, fitting with my theory, happens to Mat's eye.
Now, in the quotes above, here for your reading pleasure, one says that he places it on a balance scale. Now do you actually expect Mat to pluck out his own eye and plop it on real scales? Of course not that would be gross and well, disappointing to me. So, back to the point, where was the only other balance scale mentioned in Egwene's dreams? That's right! The aforementioned quote about Mat and the Aes Sedai on a balance scale. Coincidence? I should think not! Both have scales, although you are only showed one side with something on it in each.
So you are wondering, what exactly do you think the supposed symbolism of Mat's eye is? Well, simply this. We know that treating another human being like a slave is wrong, both morally and ethically, , in a sense, evil. We already know that the majority of the Aes Sedai see the Seanchan as evil. So, Mat's eye, on a scale, he is willing to “blind” himself to the lesser evils of the Seanchan in order to defeat the greater evil, the Dark One.
Stretch, I hear you say, incredible leap of faith over a cliff with no god to catch you!! Yes, I realize that it is a stretch, but hey, it takes care of those pesky dreams that Egwene keeps having about Mat's eye, Seanchan help, and her destroying the Tower. Also this seals Mat even more to Tuon. Yea! As well thought out as it is going to get for now.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2005-10-10
Great quote find by the way. The Aes Sedai on the balance and Mat weighing them. Although, this suggests something different to me, something that I am considering now putting to theory. If Tuon gives Mat the opportunity to decide, and it isn't something the Aes Sedai can choose, then I think the Seanchan will take over the Tower, maybe before the Rebels attack, and Mat may be given the opportunity to decide their fate. I do like how you added the quote about the weighing to Egwene's dream of needing help from the Seanchan to save herself. And I do agree with your interpretation, it is TG, not the Tower. And I think you can tie "eye" as in Eye of the World, as in symbolic of the disc's Egwene was seeing, the Eye of the World, the Power, Light, the Tower. So, I do like the idea that Mat is blinding himself to what must be done. Well put Karasien, a beautiful first theory. I hope you continue to put the same attention to theories in the future.
2
Callandor: 2005-10-10
**Well Mat has become the Uber-General , he would see stilling these women as a waste of a powerful weapon. (Not to mention that Mat has no love for Aes Sedai to start with)**
Maybe, but that seems incredibly out of character for Mat to be caring about Aes Sedai issues in the larger sense.
**Nicely fitting with my theory of giving them to the Seanchan, right?**
Indeed, it does. But, we also have strong implication Mat will be involved in the rescue of Moiraine -- who is one Aes Sedai. It could be that there is another Aes Sedai (probably one he is traveling with now), that weighs the other end of the scales for Mat saving.
**While, yes, this could be interpreted as Egwene needing the Seanchan to reach her goal, most likely a united Tower. But who is to say that it cannot just as easily be that the goal they are trying to reach is victory at TG.**
Well, if you think about it, Egwene was in a position that was like walking up the sides of a high mountain (being Amyrlin with her contenders), and did have the ground be removed from under her (she was betrayed to the Tower), and is in a position that can easily be called hanging onto a crevice that hurts (it's in the prologue of Knife of Dreams).
**For instance, allowing a woman of any age to be entered in the novice book, removing the oaths and retiring to the Kin, rather than just retiring, and (as I choose to believe she will do) changing the Three Oaths.**
Egwene won't change the Oaths. She's accepted that they are still necessary, and are what make Aes Sedai Aes Sedai. Otherwise, she wouldn't be establishing a plan for retirement -- she'd just have all Aes Sedai remove the Oaths.
**Now, I ask you, why do you so badly want to blind poor little Mat?**
I don't -- I just feel it's going to happen.
**I mean really, most things that Min sees have a symbolic reason, and a Dreamer is no different.**
Uh, no. Min's auras are symbolic. But the majority of her viewings are specific as hell. Rand taking Callandor? The Crown of Swords? The seven ruined towers around Lan? Mat with the Horn, as you so quoted? Perrin having a wolf in his viewing? A broken crown? Elayne with the Rose Crown of Andor? Egwene with a White Flame? Nynaeve with Lan's ring of heavy gold? Perrin again with the Aiel in a cage, a Tinker with a sword, and the falcon and hawk on his shoulder (that is the most abstract, and it's incredibly specific)?
And if you wish to take seriously Egwene's dream about the Seanchan woman, and the Tower attack, you shouldn't cast aside the ones about Mat.
**Now do you actually expect Mat to pluck out his own eye and plop it on real scales?**
Expect? No, but I can see him doing it.
3
Traveller: 2005-10-11
I agree with parts of this theory but, for example:
"And the other one - a red eagle, an eye on a balance scale, a dagger with a ruby, a horn, and a laughing face." - Min, about Mat, tEotW ch.15, p.216
You say Min sees symbolic things, but I mean a Red Eagle=Manetheren (it is only symbolic because showing a picture of the city of Manetheren would mean nothing), a dagger with a ruby=the dagger from Shadar Logoth, a horn= the Horn of Valere, and a laughing face= er, Mat? I am not automatically saying that the eye on the balance scale is going to be THAT literal but it seems fitting that he weighs his eye (or his sight, or something like that) up to something.
Also, I feel that Mat could simply not do that. He has the same morals as Rand and Perrin of not wanting women hurt, so much so that he would do almost anything to prevent it. Also (to quote form another theory) Mat is like the 'Protector' in that he always fights for what is right- I really can't see him supporting the Seanchan way of imprisoning and torturing women (even Aes Sedai).
4
Davian93: 2005-10-15
****"Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended.... She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps. There had been other dream****
Joline and Teslyn (The ones he rescued from Ebou Dar) are the Two AS mentioned in that Dream.
****Hmmm.... You say, that is all very well and good but you still have not really provided solidity on the point that Egwene, as Amyrlin, would ever allow anyone to be leashed, especially as she herself hated it. ****
Exactly, but your proof to the contrary doesnt hold water. So Egwene will be rescued by a Seanchan...she's still not going to be able to convince anyone to give even AS prisoners to be leashed. Also there is one minor point: Having been a former damane Egwene will NEVER LET ANYONE ELSE BE LEASHED as she finds the whole concept abhorrent.
****"Another dream. Mat throwing dice with blood streaming down his face, the wide brim of his hat pulled low so she could not see his wound, while Thom Merrilin put his hand into a fire to draw out the small blue stone that now dangled on Moiraine's forehead." ****
This is clearly interpreted as Mat and Thom going to save Moiraine. Remember Moiraine (according to Min's vision) is essential for Rand's victory at the Last Battle. So Mat gambling (the dice tossing) with the Finn to save Moiraine and thus pay with his Eye (half the light of the world) fits perfectly with the visions, prophecies, dreams that all seem to heavily foreshadow this happening.
5
Karasien: 2005-10-17
**Maybe, but that seems incredibly out of character for Mat to be caring
about Aes Sedai issues in the larger sense. **
True, Mat doesn't really care about the Aes Sedai plans, and for the most part he does try to avoid getting involved with any of the battles, but I think he is only trying to convince himself that he doesn't want to be in them..
**Indeed, it does. But, we also have strong implication Mat will be involved in the rescue of Moiraine -- who is one Aes Sedai. It could be that there is another Aes Sedai (probably one he is traveling with now), that weighs the other end of the scales for Mat saving.**
Good Point.. but I believe that the Tower wont be reunited again until after Moiraine is rescued. Why? Well, she is about the Aes Sedai that everyone (or almost everyone) trusts to some degree, and she is smart enough also to see the use of damane, even if it should disgust her.
** Well, if you think about it, Egwene was in a position that was like walking up the sides of a high mountain (being Amyrlin with her contenders), and did have the ground be removed from under her (she was betrayed to the Tower), and is in a position that can easily be called hanging onto a crevice that hurts (it's in the prologue of Knife of Dreams).**
Ah... good thinking there... hmmmm....alright, I can see it that way, but... You know you are really ruining this for me.. ;)
** Egwene won't change the Oaths. She's accepted that they are still necessary, and are what make Aes Sedai Aes Sedai. Otherwise, she wouldn't be establishing a plan for retirement -- she'd just have all Aes Sedai remove the Oaths.**
Because Egwene is smarter than we give her credit for, she does see that the Oaths are what makes them Aes Sedai, but that intelligence also allows her to see that the Oaths are restricting their abilities, that is why I think she will change them. I could be dead wrong, which I probably am, but still.
** I don't -- I just feel it's going to happen.**
NO! If we deny it, it cant be true, Mat will NOT lose his eye, I like him to much to see him come to that harm...
**Uh, no. Min's auras are symbolic. But the majority of her viewings are specific as hell. Rand taking Callandor? The Crown of Swords? The seven ruined towers around Lan? Mat with the Horn, as you so quoted? Perrin having a wolf in his viewing? A broken crown? Elayne with the Rose Crown of Andor? Egwene with a White Flame? Nynaeve with Lan's ring of heavy gold? Perrin again with the Aiel in a cage, a Tinker with a sword, and the falcon and hawk on his shoulder (that is the most abstract, and it's incredibly specific)?**
.....shut up.....OK, that's not fair, I just hate it when I am wrong. (It happens often, but I still don't have to like it.) Alright, I probably worded itwrong, since symbolic is not quite right for Min's viewings, and you are right, Min's viewings have (thus far) been a literal thing, except consider these:
*"When you're all in a group? Sparks swirling around you, thousands of them, and a big shadow, darker than midnight. It's so strong, I almost wonder why everybody can't see it. The sparks are trying to fill the shadow, and the shadow is trying to swallow the sparks." She shrugged. "You are all tied together in something dangerous, but I can't make any more of it." - Min, tEotW ch.15, p.215*
There aren't literally sparks flying around them, nor are they literally surrounded by darkness ready to swallow them But I suppose you could argue that this could be seen as an aura, I don't think so, but you might, so I will go on.
*To Min's eyes, a silvery collar suddenly appeared, snug around the woman's neck, and as suddenly seemed to shatter. Min shivered. She did not like viewings connected to the Seanchan. At least Edesina would escape somehow. - tFoH ch.26, p.452*
I don't think that her collar will actually shatter, that would likely kill her, however she will escape. Again not a literal thing, but not quite symbolic either..
*"An Aielman in a cage," she said promptly. "A Tuatha'an with a sword. A falcon and a hawk, perching on your shoulders. Both female, I think." - Min, to Perrin, tDR ch.6, p.99*
Like you said, the falcon and hawk quote. Again, not a literal occurrence, but not truly symbolic.
*"When Bryne came in, I had a viewing. An aura, and a bull ripping roses from around its neck, and.... None of it matter except the aura. I didn't even really understand that, but more than anything else." Min, to Siuan, tFoH ch.28, p.484*
An aura AND a vision. Now we know that the Bull and Roses is Gareth Brynes symbol, and we can also surmise that he is parted with Andor by ripping the roses off his neck, but again, Bryne is not a bull, and there are no roses literally hanging round his neck. Not literal, not symbolic I am not sure what to call them except possibly represent is better than symbolic, but you get the point right?
**Expect? No, but I can see him doing it.**
*sniffles* I can see him doing it to, and the whole time I will be saying No. *sniffles*
** Also, I feel that Mat could simply not do that. He has the same morals as Rand and Perrin of not wanting women hurt, so much so that he would do almost anything to prevent it. Also (to quote form another theory) Mat is like the 'Protector' in that he always fights for what is right- I really can't see him supporting the Seanchan way of imprisoning and torturing women (even Aes Sedai).**
True, he doesn't like the idea of hurting women, we have seen that on every opportunity. It is one of the main reasons that he will go and rescue Moiraine. But, (yes I am going to make a stretch) possibly he learns that sometimes even women have to fight while he is in harassing the 'Finns and rescuing Moiraine.
I'm trying my best to defend this, but I am tired and it's early, so it might not do much to help it.
6
Dirhavel: 2005-10-19
I doubt that Mat will make any bargain that leaves a single Aes Sedai in the hands of the Seanchan. So far we have seen at least two time where he has gone out of his way to free them from collars so why would he just change his mind and decide to have half of them given as damane?? It just doesn't make sense. the morals Rand, Perrin and Mat share are to much alike for any of this to happen.
I really don't want to see mat lose an eye since he is the best character in the books.
7
Elder Haman: 2005-10-19
I'm pretty sure the dream about two Aes Sedai on a balance scale reffered to the Aes Sedai Mat rescued for Ebu Dar. After all, if Mat hadn't gone back for Tyselin (sp?) he never would have married Tuon.