1
Tamyrlin: 2003-04-21
This is a good topic to discuss. What is Birgitte? Does she have a normal body/soul connection that everyone else does, or is she some sort of anamoly? From her obvious skills, in my opinion, she doesn't seem to have lost her Hero status...in other words, the Horn only calls back the dead souls awaiting rebirth. She has gone through some sort of weird forced birth, so I don't believe the Horn would call her. The lose of memories is what normally happens to the Heroes when they are born. They can't remember anything of their previous lives until they die and return to T'A'R. So, the fact that she is losing her memories just suggests to me that she went through some type of birthing process. But, I can be wrong. If Elayne hadn't saved her, would she have returned to T'A'R? Moggy did something strange...this would be a good Jordan question.
2
solomonrex: 2003-04-21
The Heroes of the Horn are like a cast of characters to the Wheel of Time. Some characters (or actors and actresses?) are important enough to spin out again (recycle?). Some of these are Heroes. And at least some of the Forsaken are/were important enough to be spun out by the Wheel again- like Birgitte would have been. This short list at least consists of Ishamael, who states that he and the Dragon have been born many times over. But the Forsaken never died naturally, and so couldn't have entered TAR. They were ripped unnaturally from the wheel kind of like Birgitte. So if there's a "new" Birgitte, then is there a "new" Ishamael, Lanfear or Taim?
Or is the pattern done with her and them, and the memory problem is related to the ghosts that are appearing? This could indicate a more fundamental problem with TAR (which is the source of her memories?) or with the DO's influence in general.
Lastly, I have one reason to think Birgitte is no longer bound to the Horn- when the Horn of Valere is sounded, there will be no Gaidal Cain wearing diapers. Birgitte is no longer in TAR, and like the warder bond, connections across TAR are not kept.
3
Anubis: 2003-04-21
i think that it all depends on weather or not the dead heroes are a part of the pattern, and maybe that will not matter... if moggys ripping out of brigit was somthing that the pattern planned for, then it stands to reason that she is still bound, and that her prior memories will be somehow usefull. but if it was a fluke, then anything could go
4
Callandor: 2003-04-21
I think that Birgette is still attached to the Horn, but because she exists in the physical world, like Rand as LTT, if the Horn were sounded she would not turn into the Heroes she would still be in physical form.
As for her memories, I think its something like jet lag. When Birgette was forced into the real world by Moghedien that really soon she was going to put back into the real would again soon after Cain. So for that little time before her scheduled return to the real world, after she had been ripped out, she retained the knowledge she had. Then she started losing the knowledge because it was moving to be awaited for a proper rebirth, much like Rands theory.
5
forge: 2003-04-25
i dont think birgittes memories are 'funneling into her new soul' for two reasons. one is that when the heroes are reborn, they dont have memories of their previous lives, they only get these when they return to T'A'R. also they cant funnel into a new soul, because the heroes keep the same souls throughout all their incarnations, only their bodies change.
6
Rand-althor: 2003-05-22
I am saying that it seems that Gaidal NEEDS Birgette, so there has to be a Birgette figgure in there somewhere. This means that there needs to be a 'new' Bridgette, to replace the one ripped out. This means that the pattern either has to create a new soul for her, or replace it with a existing non-hero soul. This means it will have to be given memories, or it won't be the same soul. I am not saying that there will be a baby crying in the old tounge, I am saying that the new soul will get all Birgettes thoughts, mannerisms, etc, so that the new soul IS Birgette. As to the comment about no baby Gaidal, being reborn obviously severs some tie to TAR, that makes it so that they are not called back, either being a baby on the battlefeild, or leaving a soulless body. Birgette, in my opionon, has not had that happen. When she was originally ripped out, she almost died no matter what Nyneve did. This was because she was still tied to TAR, and without it, was going to die. Also the pattern was causing her to die (again, imo) so that she would be in TAR, ready to be reborn. Because that didn't happen, she either needs to die soon, so she appears in TAR and gets reborn, or she will lose all her memories, and become a normal person (or at least as normal as a person can be when they missed the first large portion of their lives)
7
Agonotheta: 2003-05-25
Just a question, but if Birgittes memories etc are being funnelled into a new soul then who are we left when they've all been funnelled. You say that you doubt she will cease to exist well then whose soul do we have? Just a random anybodies?
Also i'm not sure how this funneling would take place. I don't believe she's directly linked to TAR anymore and how would the pattern take one soul and place it in another in the physical world?
I'm more inclined to go with Tamyrlin and say that it was a forced birth and the losing of memories is a natural occurence as with all Heroes.
I do agree with the idea that she was being pushed/pulled back to TAR though when she was first ripped out. I think this is because the way she came into the real world was so unnatural that her existence was vary precarious, the pattern was trying to right itself. I'm wondering how the warder bond actually tipped the balance?
As for being linked to the horn i think only the dead heroes will be called back and Birgitte is firmly in the living world now, as Solomonrex says your not going to get Gaidal Cain there too.
8
Rand-althor: 2003-05-25
OK now that I look back at my theory, it is flawed, because I typed it so I could understand it. I think that there will be a new Birgette, and a possability is that it will be a different soul, with the same memories, mannerisms, etc, but there is also the possability that it is not too late for Birgette to be reborn in the correct way. Another possability is, as has been brought up, as this was a forced birth, she is naturally loosing the memories. As would happen with a normal hero, during pregnancy. I meant that there will be a new Birgette figgure, which will be, as she has said, Gaidal's love, the level headedness of the relationship etc. She will still be Birgette, but she will not be the hero, as she has been "replaced". If she is killed sometime soon, I personally believe that there is still time for her to be reborn, and take her propper place in the pattern.
9
Agonotheta: 2003-05-27
The pattern spins out a new hero to replace the old but allowing the present Birgitte to still carry on except without hero status. Put it like that and it sounds pretty plausible.
What makes a hero a hero though? You have heroes that are recycled by the pattern, but what makes the pattern throw them up. Would it be possible for Birgitte to still maintain hero status through her deeds or is it the will of the wheel who is reborn and who not? Or am i just spouting rubbish?
10
Rand-althor: 2003-05-27
I think that hero status is gained by doing something heroic, out of charactor. For example, if somebody was normally cautious, fearful, etc, and they put themself in a lot of danger to save sombody else, that could gain hero status. But then again, I could be completely wrong, and the way to become a hero could be extrememly different. I think the key in figguring out what gives hero status is in the quote that Hawkwing says to Hurin, i think it is. It is something along the lines of "you may be joining us soon" Ill give exact quote as soon as i get my copy of tGH back, a friend is borrowing it. This can be interperted 2 ways though. Either Hawkwing sees the hero spirit in Hurin, and knows he will die soon, to be put back into TAR, or he is about to be a new hero. Interpert it how you will, but tell me if you can see something that Hurin has done that could cause him to become a hero, please point it out. How people become heros is something that has been troubling me for a while.
11
Shadow Bane: 2003-06-20
I really lke this idea! Rand good thinking There are a few flaws that were already pointed out but other than that this theory is quite probable.
12
a dragonburned fool: 2003-10-27
There is another possibility: When Elayne tells her first time she's an Warder, Birgette remembers something about another female Warder, but that was so long ago, that she doesn't remember anything clear. And we know in that time she has clear memories from more than two Ages. Could it be, that female-Warder-memory being a memory from the 3Age, i.e. residue of remembering some Lady Birgitte, the Warder of Elayne Sedai from the so long ago passed 3Age? And to the end of the series our birgitte will do maybe such things, that she becomes a completely "new" Hero of the Horn? Could it be, that our Birgitte with all her past-life memories is actualy the "first" Birgitte?
13
Jalt Varyd: 2003-10-27
I'm almost certain Birigitte is still a Hero of the Horn because of Min's viewings about her - more adventures than anyone could possibly have in one life. Has Min ever had even one viewing about the past instead of the future? If not, we KNOW Birigitte is still bound to the horn (though, being physically in the world, she probably won't be called by it).
14
Cor Shan: 2003-10-27
Hmmm... Birgitte, allowing the horn is blown, will be called by it; she will want to go: kinda like how all the channelers in Randland, Shara, Seanchan ect could feel the Shadar Logoth Battle.
15
EvilJawa101: 2003-11-11
I see it like this, Everyone is reincarnatd, but the special hero people (Brigitte etc) are set aside and the creator or some other process puts them in at special intervals and places. Where as another soul would simply be stuffed in a body when someone is born. Now if Brigette is no longer a hero, wouln't she just be put in with the other souls?
16
Aelfinn: 2004-01-15
***Birgitte has been ripped out of T'A'R, but has she been un-bound from the horn? ***
I personally don't think that will ever be a question, because the Pattern won't allow for HofH to just "disappear".
Birgitte is going to die some time before the Horn is blown again, and when she's done her "dead-hero-helping-the-hornsounder" bit, she'll be reborn in time to match her Gaidal Cain.
At least, that's what I hope will happen.
17
A Random Finn: 2004-02-23
I do not think Brigitte will die before the Horn is blown again. Min had a viewing about Birgitte and an older man and Birgitte and a younger man but she thought they were the same person. This implies that Birgitte will meet Cain without being proparly reborn.
18
danger: 2004-05-19
Ok so I know this is a lot of speculation but what can be done can always be undone. (Rand said so himself CoS A Broken Crown) If Brigitte can be ripped away from T'A'R' and the pattern don't you think she could be returned?
What if Someone took Mat to T'A'R' in the flesh and he sounded the Horn again. Wouldn't that recall all the heros to the horn...which is exactly where Brigitte belongs?
Ok so that might never happen but it's worth a thought. Maybe there's some other way to get her back where she wants to be.
19
Dezza: 2004-11-15
There seems to be a big issue with the memories that Birgitte is loosing. And relating it to her being ripped out of TA'R.
I never thought there was anything odd about this. I thought that the memories just fade with time in the real world and this is the normal case for rebirth. Just some speculation, it would be possible for a child to be born with full memories that fade in the first one or two years of the new life. No one would ever know since the child could not tell anyone the memories, or they would be assumed to be imaginery if they could tell someone.
20
mazrimashaman: 2005-04-06
the horn cant call her back because the horn calls the souls bound to the pattern, by being taken out of tar she has either been torn away from the pattern, or she has been taken out of the place where the souls wait to be brought back, though I think moghedian said something about being torn from the pattern.
21
Callandor: 2005-04-06
**the horn cant call her back because the horn calls the souls bound to the pattern, by being taken out of tar she has either been torn away from the pattern, or she has been taken out of the place where the souls wait to be brought back, though I think moghedian said something about being torn from the pattern.**
Birgitte won't be summoned by the Horn, because she is in the Pattern now. The question is, if she dies, would she be summoned to fight by the call of the Horn? I say yes, because the position of being a Hero of the Horn, seems to be irreversable (since RJ said they cannot "choose" to not be a Hero anymore).
22
Aiel Finn: 2005-04-07
Elayne saved her from being torn from the pattern. However, if she dies, she will still be a Hero. This raises some interesting possiblities for the last battle. If she dies, she can probably come right back.
23
IkilledAsmodean: 2005-09-11
This is a tangled situation, to say the least. I think, though, that Birgitte will not be called by the Horn, unless she dies in the meantime. She is, as was said, a part of the pattern now, and for all we know, the Creator could very well have inteded it, so that a Hero might walk among those important to the Last Battle, protecting some directly, and aiding others as well.
We are often told that heroes are spun out. We are NOT often told HOW they are spun out. This could be simply an odd spinning. Now, for those who might say that Birgitte is always linked wiht Gaidel, I would point out that between the two, she is clearly more important to the Pattern. Thus, it is not so out of whack for me to think there may be times (whether she knows of them or not), when she has been spun out alone.
Perhaps this is that time.
24
Anubis: 2005-09-12
Briggite is still a Hero, Min saw it.
and if the horn is blown, i bet briggite will be there. she wont be summoned, but she will show up. call it a hunch.
25
Baean AimaDe: 2005-09-12
For me, the question would be. Why can't a hero be "untied" to the Horn.
First, is the horn simply something of the second and third age? Or is it a continual "thing" throughout all ages?
Second - and this is kinda shaky ground. Why is Lews Therin the only HotH mentioned from the AoL? every other Hero Was someone who had made an appearance in Age 3 of some sort. Technically Lews Therin could be considered both the Last prominant figure of AoL and the first of Age 3.
Third - It's clear that all the hero's of the horn have had rebirths in many past turns of the wheel. and yet all were A3 icons ( correct me if I am wrong ). And yet Hawkwing said People could be added to the horn ( His remark to Hurin that maybe another would be added this day ). Wouldn't there be a lot more if the horn was an icon from before the AoL?.
Fourth - This leads me to believe that the Horn is a creation of sometime late in the AoL. Possibly by Lews Therin himself ( all speculation I know ) I'm working on a theory around this but we'll see. I couldn't find anything referring directly to the creation of the horn, but the only indication I could see that would lend credence to it being a non 3rd age item, is Lews Therin being bound , and that other guy who's supposed to herald the end of an age. ( But he would have been around at the AoL and start of 3rd age anyhow then ya? )
Fifth - So I'm going to Coin a new phrase! Hero of the Pattern. Is Birgitte a Hero of the Horn? Sure. But she's also a Prominent figure ( and seperate from the horn ) of the pattern. Being ripped out of TAR would not necessarily destroy her connection to the horn. The only Other example we see of a hero alive in conjunction with the horn , is Lews Therin Himself, and he WAS there. The whole in that theory is Gaidal Cain. If he's an infant now , I doubt he'll be at TG. But ! since the Horn of Valere to me appears to be associated with the 3rd age. Maybe he has to be? Along with Birgitte and Rand.
Finally - Birgitte is a part of the pattern first, Horn second. And Basicly.. whatever happens is what was meant to happen unless it involves a direct influence from the DO , or Balefire. So Yea a forced birth , Maybe removed from the Horn. But still a "Hero" nonetheless.
What makes a hero a hero? More than bravery. That alone warrants it's own Theory ;p
26
Yaga Shura: 2005-09-12
IkilledAsmodean:
"I would point out that between the two, she is clearly more important to the Pattern."
Why do you say that? Certainly she is playing a larger role now, but I don't think there is any grounds to say that she is more important than Gaidal.
27
Callandor: 2005-09-16
**For me, the question would be. Why can't a hero be "untied" to the Horn.**
RJ has said that Heroes cannot chose to no longer be Heroes, but hasn't said they can't be untied.
**First, is the horn simply something of the second and third age? Or is it a continual "thing" throughout all ages?**
Seems to be continual. The Heroes are of course.
**Why is Lews Therin the only HotH mentioned from the AoL? every other Hero Was someone who had made an appearance in Age 3 of some sort. Technically Lews Therin could be considered both the Last prominant figure of AoL and the first of Age 3.**
Birgitte was reborn during Lews Therin's time, so Gaidal Cain was as well, also while probably at the same time or a little after, were Shivan and Calian (the ones that herald the end of Ages). It's just that what Lews Therin did was so well known that it's survived known by many. But other Heroes were present.
**Wouldn't there be a lot more if the horn was an icon from before the AoL?.**
A lot more Heroes? Depends on how they are added. Normal people doing the roles of what the Pattern felt required a Hero -- sure. But the implication is that it's very rare.
**And Basicly.. whatever happens is what was meant to happen unless it involves a direct influence from the DO , or Balefire.**
Balefire is effect of the Pattern too -- as it was fated by Mat to be brought back by balefire.
