Tamyrlin: 2003-11-17

Well, while it is possible, it doesn't seem like Gaidal put himself into a position to be taken or killed. He was pissed at Birgitte for breaking the rules, and my guess is the rules keeps them safe from those like Moggy. While making Birgitte suffer for eternity would be possible through killing her "eternal" love, I think it is more likely that he was spun out, since he is always spun out before her. We don't have proof either way, but it would make for a better story; Birgitte breaks the rules, Gaidal Cain, the hero, is killed while awaiting rebirth, and Birgitte is left without her love for eternity.

Callandor: 2003-11-17

**The first inquiry I make is to why Gaidal was spun out. I have a feeling the Creator doesn't hand out heroes like Candy, so there would probably be something in his future that he and/or Brigette would be needed for.**

The Heroes of the Horn are corrective measures of the Pattern; if the Pattern is going too far off it's needed course, a Hero is reborn to correct it. So no, they aren't just used like candy ;)

And, as you said, he is not Olver.

kikyo: 2003-11-19

I don't think Gaidal Cain was killed, at least not by Moghedien, because if she had done that, she would have let Birgitte know. There's no point in doing something to upset someone if they don't know about it. So, I don't think he's dead, but I also have wondered why he was spun out when he was ... the only thing I can come up with is that the pattern somehow knew or caused Moghedien to rip Birgitte out of TAR because that was the plan all along. Maybe in this age she is needed at the last battle fully grown and also needed to protect GC this time so that he lives through the last battle to grow up and serve a purpose later.

I also think that Birgitte will continue to be a hero after this lifetime. Although she was ripped out, the pattern rewards people of great bravery by making them heroes of the Horn and I think she will be just as brave in this life as she ever was, so will be rewarded anew with her status of hero.

Rhodric: 2003-11-19

Olver aint Cain, but

could Olver be some other hero? it seems that he will be a super talented jack-of-all-trades (but master of all!)by the time he's about Mat's age. surely this kind of thing doesn't happen often, historically speaking - boy raised by a Ta'veren and his soldier pals and a gleeman and a Seanchan high lady and several random attractive women. a master of the sword, the game of houses, juggling, horseriding, archery, debauchery (lol) - surely this is heroe material.

so does that fit any of the (vague) descriptions of other heroes? i want more info on heroes. there's only a sentence here or there, it aint enough, it's frustrating.

in support of Gaidal is Olver theories:

could Moggy have turned him into a boy, then ripped him out of TAR like she did to Birgitte, except as a boy? nah that idea is suss because it too assumes (as this thread's theory does) that Moggy knew where/how to find Cain. she is master of TAR so if anyone knows a way it would be her.

Anaiyella: 2003-11-20

I kinda like this theory, but I think it's pretty unlikely. I don't think that Gaidal was killed by moghidean(sp, RJs just gotta make it hard, doesn't he), but I do think that the idea of him cleaning up after the whole TG thing is a great one. I'm guessing that there will be some trollocs and other shadow spawn still around even after the whole defeat of the dark one. Maybe Cain will be known as a hero again for killing so many of them or something. I don't know maybe I'm wrong, but I think theres a good chance since the patterns all about balance and stuff.

SugarBullet: 2003-11-20

Personally, I favor the extreme longshot of Gaidal Cain being Rand and Avienda's Child. The Timing would be about right... there is a passage toward the end of FOH where one of the wise ones says that avienda has been more successful than she let on. And that they were suprised that avienda hadn't told them already. Then Rand is noticved as overhearing and Avienda gets very embarressed. That's about the point I'm at re-reading the series now, so I can't say how much time has passed since that juncture, or at what point avienda learned to invert her weaves (nynaeve and elayne learn at the beginning of LOC). This is just my speculation, but I'll watch as I re-read as to it's potential as truth.

Foxwolf: 2003-11-22

Gaidal Cain can't be dead. In Winters Heart Min sees images around Birgette connecting her to a man both much older and much younger than her( that's Gaidal). If Gaidal were killed then there's no way Birgette could be connected to a much younger man.

Great theory about him cleaning up after Rand though. I totally agree.

Zaela Sedai: 2003-11-23

First of all Min says Avi will have quadruplets, and the babies would have gotten hurt or killed if she was pregnant during the first-sister ceremony. It's been a while since she and Rand were together so wouldn't she be showing by now? And she still has no problems using the power as Elayne does. Min did say that something about Avi's babies would be wierd, but I don't think she's pregnant now.

Krinsdeath: 2003-12-10

Actually, you see, there's a flaw in that. Time doesn't 'flow' the same in Tel'aran'rhiod, so it's entirely possible that the few times they were NOT in The Dream, that much time HAD passed. I'm not saying I'm right, but it is more credible (in my opinion) than almost any other theory. Olver and Gaidal share many of the same attributes (huge ears, giant nose, wide mouth) and, thus, it makes sense.

Another point is that Birgitte tells Elayne and Nynaeve that she "hasn't seen Gaidal in a while". Since Birgitte is quite fluent in how to walk The Dream (she has been there for a very long time), it stands to reason that she'd be able to find Gaidal if she really wanted to. (Like Egwene and the Dreamwalkers' ability to find sleeping people in that 'place between the dreams'.)

I highly doubt that Moghedien, no matter how powerful (in Tel'aran'rhiod or elsewhere), could destroy Gaidal. It just seems highly unlikely, to me.

So, yeah. I'm with the "Olver is Gaidal" crowd.

Callandor: 2003-12-10

**Actually, you see, there's a flaw in that. Time doesn't 'flow' the same in Tel'aran'rhiod, so it's entirely possible that the few times they were NOT in The Dream, that much time HAD passed. I'm not saying I'm right, but it is more credible (in my opinion) than almost any other theory. Olver and Gaidal share many of the same attributes (huge ears, giant nose, wide mouth) and, thus, it makes sense.**

Yes, they have the same attributes, RJ made a red herring for us to follow on and it is working so well that even after HE HIMSELF SAID THAT CAIN WAS NOT OLVER people still believe it.

Olver is not Gaidal Cain.

Khaos: 2004-01-14

speaking of Gaidal Cain and the viewing Min had of Birgitte where she sees that she will be involved with a man both younger and older than her, it has mostly been assumed that this is a reference to Cain's rebirth's but what if it means that although Gaidal Cain in his latest incarnation is younger than her now (little more than a squalling babe). By the time she meets him he will in fact be older than her. How would this happen? via the portal stones. If somehow in the next two books baby Gaidal is transpoted to one of the mirror worlds where time passes differently either (in this casae faster) he could grow up become the hero he was meant to be and then find his way back to the real world now physically older than Birgitte.

Although this is pure conjecture it would also allow the pattern to continue its traditional course. birgitte tells us that in every meeting between her and Gaidal they have hated each other at first meeting but grom to love each other. how can this now be if Birgitte now has prior knowledge of their love, it would be able to come about because Birgitte is looking for ugly boys and not an ugly man allowing her to meet the new Gaidal have them dislike each and then have her realise who he is.

rimorob: 2004-04-05

Everyone posting here assumes that Gaidal would have been spun out as a newborn. Who's to say that, for some odd reason (I won't speculate on it further) he might not have been spun out into a child's body, implanted not unlike the recently killed forsaken?

This would explain a lot of quirks in Olver's behavior, including his liking for women, his spectacular ability to ride horses and to play stones. Since he wouldn't necessarily advertise his peculiar situation (even to Mat), we'd be none the wiser.

Anubis: 2004-04-06

look up three posts to the one that says callandor to the right of it. read the words that are in all caps. never post that again.

Darren: 2004-04-06

Gaidal Cain is NOT Olver.

Olver's cool enough in his own right.

And Birgitte (why do people have so much trouble spelling this name, when Aviendha or Tel Janin gives no one pause?) suspected that Gaidal had been spun out before Moghedien went on a rampage. It was not her doing.

What Moghedien did to Birgitte was to remove her from the pattern, so destiny will take no hand in either her finding Gaidal Cain, or the reverse. As well, since GC was spun out before this happened, and he is ALWAYS paired with B, there will come key moments in his life where the pattern requires B to be there for things to work out. As she won't, he stands a much greater chance of dying before he can do what he has to.... and of course, once he dies, Birgitte will have NO chance of finding him again, as long as she is ripped out of the pattern.

Honestly, some of you guys....

Balwer: 2004-04-19

**First, assuming time cannot flow backwards in TAR, he is not Oliver. Oliver is at least six. Elayne saw Gaidal in TAR and it was less than six years until he was spun out. So thats that.**

Is it really? At one point in TAR Birgitte says its been a while since Nynaeve has visited or something, and then they compare times and discover a significant disparity in time between visits. Therefore we know that time moves differently in TAR, so, while such a large disparity in times is unlikely, it's certainly possible that Olver is Gaidal Cain. While it may have only been a few months between Nynaeve seeing Gaidal Cain and Birgitte saying that he has been spun out, it could have been much longer in TAR, say, six years?

charliec: 2004-04-21

it doesn't matter how long it took in TAR... Perrin saw Gaidal Cain's shadow in when he talked to Birgitte in the wolf dream, and Olver was undoubtedly already born by then.

Brendan Reborn: 2004-04-21

Why can't we all just live with the fact that this turning of the wheel is "different" from those past. "It was a beginning..." from the first paragraph hints this. Gaidal Cain is still in TAR waiting to be summoned by the horn of valere. Now the question is, can it be used again, since mat already used it? That brings up another question. Did mats death in Rhuidean, break his tie with the horn of valere so now anyone can blow it?

Oatman: 2004-04-22

Even if it had been 6 years in TAR it still would have only been a few months in the real world - Olver could have been born 50 years ago in TAR time- it wouldnt make him 50 years old

Darren: 2004-04-22

The only proper response to those who continue to argue that Olver is Gaidal Cain, in spite of ALL the evidence in the texts (and Olver is more likely 10 than 6) in spite of RJ himself stating that Olver is not Gaidal Cain (and he should know) is embarassed silence.

HappyFade: 2004-04-22

Ok, for those who can't see why the timing doesn't work(even with TAR's subtleties), let's try this again.

If you think that Olver, although at least six, is Gaidal reborn, then, when Olver was 5, if he drempt himself into TAR, he could run into himself.

Do you not also wonder why we have not seen LTT hanging out in TAR or why LTT did not appear when the Horn of Valere was blown? It was because LTT's soul was reborn into Rand all that time, and couldn't be elsewhere, doing other things, at the same time.

If you believe Gaidal's soul can be multiple places at once, then for all we know, maybe Mat is Gaidal, Olver is Gaidal, Thom is an old Gaidal, and there are a bunch of other Gaidal's still playing in TAR.

Do you understand why it is nonsense now?

Callandor: 2004-04-22

**Gaidal Cain is still in TAR waiting to be summoned by the horn of valere. Now the question is, can it be used again, since mat already used it? That brings up another question. Did mats death in Rhuidean, break his tie with the horn of valere so now anyone can blow it?**

1. I get tired of pointing this out. Mat did not die in Rhuidean; he ALMOST died.

WOT FAQ:

**Bill Garrett's report of RJ's appearance at Balticon 30 (April 1996) mentions: "(Jordan noted that Mat's death by lightning and subsequent undoing of his death when Rand balefired Rahvin, fulfills a prophecy about living, dying, and then living again.)" Tim Kington reports that, when asked how long Mat had hung from the Tree of Life in Rhuidean, RJ replied, "Long enough to be almost dead" (emphasis mine) [post-COT signing, Dayton, OH, January 16, 2004].**

Mat was hung long enough to go unconscious and into cardiac arrest, but he was resusitated (sp?) by Rand via CPR. He did not die in Rhuidean; he died from the lightning strike of Rahvin.

2. Going on that because Mat died of lightning by a specific person (Rahvin) and that person was balefired back long enough so that Mat returned to life, it is almost assured that his death would not have severed his connection to the Horn.

3. If Mat did indeed lose his link to the Horn, it does not matter; everyone who knows that the Horn has been found, knows Mat sounded it (yes, even the Shadow). They will still try to kill him, and the people of the Light will still try to get the Horn to Mat for it to be sounded.

Also, it is "secured" in Tar Valon, in a place that really onlyu Siuan and Verin know of.

4. Gaidal Cain has been reborn; Birgitte said this, and I think that she can be counted as an expert in this matter.

5. The Horn of Valere can be used infinately many times; however, the first one to use it (Mat in this case) is linked to it, so that only they can sound it to summon the Heroes of the Horn to battle. To everyone else, even if they use it, it is just a horn. Mat can call all the Heroes back, if he has the Horn, at anytime, as many times as he wants.

Davian93: 2004-04-22

****Gaidal Cain is still in TAR waiting to be summoned by the horn of valere. Now the question is, can it be used again, since mat already used it? That brings up another question. Did mats death in Rhuidean, break his tie with the horn of valere so now anyone can blow it? ****

Couple of points:

Birgitte hadnt seen Gaidal in a while, so it is possible he was already reborn

Mat didnt die at Rhuidean, he was merely near death. If he was completely dead, Rands CPR wouldnt have brought him back. Mat died in the attack on Camelyn and was brought back by Rand balefiring Rahvin.

Oh, of course the horn can be used again. Either by Mat, assuming he is still linked to the horn (which I personally think he is) or by someone else if Mat's link was broken or mat dies.

Brendan Reborn: 2004-04-23

Thank you for clearing that up guys...(about mats death and so on)

Davian, As I recall, We've seen gaidal in TAR and birgitte talked with him about breaking the rules of TAR. What I'm trying to point out, is that there hasn't been enough time for Gaidal to be born between now and that point in which birgitte saw him. So the only possible explanation for Gaidal to be born again, would be that he was born before they ever saw birgitte in TAR.

clocklotion: 2005-05-17

Since theory submission seems to be down, I am going to present my theories through replies to topics that are close to what I am talking about.

It has been ESTABLISHED that Gaidal Cain is NOT Olver. RJ has said in interviews point blank that Gaidal Cain is NOT Olver. That means that Gaidal Cain (ASSUMING that he has indeed been spun out.. is there anywhere in the books that even definitively says "yes Gaidal Cain has been spun out") is either a) being cared around in his mom's stomach or b) about 1 year old. That begs the question what about Artur Hawkwing, Rogosh Eagle-Eye and all the other heroes bound to the horn. In The Great Hunt when Mat sounds the horn Gaidal Cain is there alongside Birgitte, Artur Hawkwing, Rogosh and all the rest, so if Gaidal Cain has been spun out, shouldn't the rest of the heroes follow suit. This in my mind begs three very important questions. Number One: If Artur Hawkwing and the rest have NOT been spun out, why was Gaidal Cain and not the rest? Number Two: If all the heroes of the horn HAVE been spun out who will answer Mat's call at Tarmon Gaidon? Number Three: Is there enough time remaining for baby Gaidal, baby Artur and the rest to grow up and learn to be dangerous enough to be of any use at Tarmon Gaidon? Let me know what you think..

Callandor: 2005-05-17

**In The Great Hunt when Mat sounds the horn Gaidal Cain is there alongside Birgitte, Artur Hawkwing, Rogosh and all the rest, so if Gaidal Cain has been spun out, shouldn't the rest of the heroes follow suit.**

No. People are reborn according to the Wheel's descretion. Not all the Heroes are reborn at one time or because one Hero was reborn.

**Number One: If Artur Hawkwing and the rest have NOT been spun out, why was Gaidal Cain and not the rest?**

They simply weren't meant to be spun out at this time. The Dragon was not spun out at another time in the Third Age, even while Hawkwing was spun out. He simply was not needed at the time.

**Number Three: Is there enough time remaining for baby Gaidal, baby Artur and the rest to grow up and learn to be dangerous enough to be of any use at Tarmon Gaidon?**

Who says he's needed at Tarmon Gaidon? There is going to be more things after the Last Battle.

Merk: 2005-05-17

They don't get spun out at the same time, they get spun out when they're needed by the Pattern. For example, the Dragon is a Hero, and was spun out about 20 years ago (Rand). Some are related to each other (GC and Birgitte get born near enough that they can meet; Shivan and Calian are twins) but nothing says Hawking has to be born near the time of Gaidal or any of the others.

Anubis: 2005-05-18

gaidal cain can NOT be oliver. Oliver is what? 6 years old? older? Oliver has been alive for the whole series. (just not onscreen) perrin met gaidal. i think. well someone did. he was seen in TAR. If gaidail is in TAR, and Oliver is already alive, then no ammount of TAR time wierdness can make the two be the same

keeper: 2005-12-22

ok what if the younger man and the older man were the same person;birgitte meets the younger one in this life (the one she leads in the books) and then dies but meets the same man after her rebirth,making him older than her.

JakOShadows: 2005-12-25

That would be an interesting thought. But wouldn't they just fall in love again. And I also got the impression that HotH weren't reborn that much. I think Min's viewing was wierd because it took into account her current life.

WG: 2005-12-26

**Second thought, I don't know how many of you remember (and sorry, I don't have the quote) Brigette telling Elayne that Mogheiden would make Brigette weep for eternity for helping her, but that brigette said she would anyway? Now also remeber Hopper's talk with Perrin about what happens to wolves who die in TAR. Seeing a connection? I think its entirely possible Mogheiden killed Gaidal Cain in TAR.**

It only makes sense to me that Moggy would kill one of the Heroes of the Horn. We know new threads are added at each Age, so it's only logical that some threads get removed (e.g. balefire). So, Birgitte losing Gaidal could be the major change for this trip through the Third Age.

There's another theory I've seen mentioned before, but not recently:

**

I think it would be great if Gaidal died, because I have always believed that Brigette was perfect for Mat, Daughter of Nine Moons or not. Ok, now for the downside that theory doesn't seem like something Jordan would do.

**

Mat's taking Tuon as his wife has united the Two Rivers and the Seanchan. If MAT is Gaidal and Tuon is killed, then Mat/Gaidal marries Birgitte, since Birgitte is a Warder, that could provide the emphasis to do away with a'dam. Plus, the bond to Elayne would pull in Andor. Looks to me that the unification of the world has begun.

Plus, given the Warder bond's effect on Elayne, I dread those two seeing each other after the honeymoon.

Callandor: 2005-12-30

**That would be an interesting thought. But wouldn't they just fall in love again. And I also got the impression that HotH weren't reborn that much. I think Min's viewing was wierd because it took into account her current life.**

Depends on the need. Birgitte and Gaidal have been reborn 4 times in the 3rd Age alone. But I too doubt they would be reborn so closely together.

JakOShadows: 2005-12-31

WG:

That is an interesting thought, but isn't the breaking of the world supposed to break apart the nations and end current ways of life. I think if the nations stayed intact and even united, than it would be the reverse effect. And also, Perrin is the Lord of Two Rivers. So it is not technically the same. It would be a stretch for events to happen. This wouldn't work like the six degrees of Kevin Bacon, it would have to be a stronger tie between Elayne and Mat.

What also struck me about Birgitte and Mat is that they were kindred spirits. The could both speak the old tongue and both had a connection to the horn, so it is not a romantic relationship in my mind. Would you go to a bar and check out other women with your future wife? Hopefully not, so they are more likely really good friends.

arcaneix: 2006-02-25

i think cain is olver,for many reasons one he was an urchin so he may not know or may have lied about his age to hang with mat,i think cain is suppost to be big and ugly so olver may be big for his age,it cant be mat mat doesnt use swords.ovler didnt like birgette when they met and he womanizes.they found 2 swords around the time of olver.birgette says that olver could be a young boy.and another theory here,olver is suppost to be a few yrs older than birgette,the reason birgette has such a stong bond with elayne is that shes one of the daughters.

Callandor: 2006-02-26

Jordan has repeatedly said that Olver is not Gaidal Cain. It's a dead issue.

**Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?

RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason for being there besides being a red herring, though.

Q: He's too old.

RJ: Yes. Time in T'A'R and the real world run at different rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an hour in T'A'R, and a day has passed when you get back, or you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on Monday.

Q: Is the difference in time constant?

RJ: No. It's fairly random. Sometimes fast, sometimes slow, sometimes the same as real time.

Q: It's different for different people, then?

RJ: Yes. Unless they're together in T'A'R. Then the same amount of time passes for them obviously.**

Lironah: 2010-10-30

@Callandor:

Wow, RJ is contradicting himself. In TEotW, Thom says "The dead can be reborn, or take a living body." If that's true, it shouldn't have mattered how much time had passed in Tel'aran'rhiod.

But if he said Olver isn't Cain, I'll have to give up on it. Bah.