irgitte Will Start To Slow With Elayne
by rubbernilly: 2004-01-19 | Not yet rated
We have a problem.
And, contrary to what Bacardi Guy and Cola think, the answer is not just that we need 8 more ladies. Though that would help, our problem has to do with a rather excellent character in Birgitte who has before her the perilous fate of being permanently separated from her soul-mate and fellow hero, Gaidal.
This theory basically ties up three disparate facets of Birgitte's existence and tries to justify them one against the others. Here are the facets, and I'm sorry that I do not have the books with me here at work to pull the quotes together:
1) Moghedien ripped her out of TAR so that she believes that she was "born" out of phase regarding her relationship with Gaidal; that this time, she remembers all of who she is.
2) Being bonded to a woman, Birgitte is undergoing some transformations that normal warders do not speak of, or that we have not heard them undergo. Namely, Birgitte's moods and menstrual cycles have changed to match Elayne's.
3) Min has a viewing about Birgitte that she is paired with a man many times, and though it is the same man, he is sometimes younger, sometimes older.
OK, so looking at this, on the one hand we have Moghedien promising to make Birgitte weep for eternity. Personally, I see that as a lot of bluster from Moggy, since even balefire does not preclude a soul from being reborn again. But has she managed to fulfill her promise with Birgitte by separating her from TAR the way she did?
I don't think so.
Min's viewing is at odds with what Birgitte tells us immediately after waking up after having been ripped out of TAR... Birgitte says that Gaidal has *always* been born first. When some time has passed in TAR with her being unable to find him does she know that her time is coming around again. So how do we reconcile the fact that Min is never wrong about her viewings?
(Note: Min may never be wrong, but that is not to say that RJ is never wrong... Min's viewing being different from what Birgitte tells us may be another mistake on Jordan's part, but it does not have to be.)
What if Birgitte being ripped out of TAR was intended/planned for/expected by the Pattern? After all, Moggy is still part of the pattern, she is still affected by the tugs and pulls, and she would still be caught in the swirl of a ta'veren. She is just another thread to the Pattern, so how could she do something that could so fundamentally damage the Pattern? (Note: I think something fundamental could be done by Moridin, or anyone using the True Power, since that comes from the DO and is outside the Pattern, but I do not think that Moggy was using the TP.)
OK, so expecting what Moggy was to do, the Pattern provides what Birgitte needs to survive: Elayne, an Accepted of sufficient power, knowledge, and self-confidence to break Tower convention and bond Birgitte as warder.
More importantly to this theory, if the Pattern expected what Moggy did, then there is no reason to think that Birgitte has become truly separated from Gaidal.
"But Gaidal is a child."
Yes, we know that Birgitte tells us if she found Gaidal he would be a mewling babe or a young child.
No, he is not Olver. We've been over that, and RJ has even flat-out discounted it. Get over it. This theory is for something else.
Being a child, the connection as soul-mates and lovers tends toward the "molestuous," and that just isn't RJ's style. Somehow, to rectify the situation Birgitte finds herself in, and for the Pattern to keep them connected - which it must, having expected what Moggy did - we need to get them to be of the same age.
There's the trick of it.
Her "courses" have moved to match Elayne's. Interesting. We know that they say themselves that perhaps with a female-female bond like they have, they will more and more start to mirror one another's moods/emotions/etc. What if Birgitte begins to slow as Elayne begins to slow? Elayne is just on the cusp of slowing, perhaps having already started but not far enough along that it is noticable that her apparent age and her true age are widely disparate.
So Min's viewing now about Gaidal becomes interesting. In all previous birth sequences, Gaidal was born first, according to Birgitte. That would make Gaidal always the older. This time, however, though he is older by birth (by only a few months to a year; having been present at Falme, even if Gaidal were immediately spun out after that battle not much time has passed since then to now), Birgitte is truly the older of the two. Gaidal is fulfilling the "younger" portion of Min's viewing.
It is interesting to note here that Min's viewing, that Birgitte was always tied to this particular man, be he older or younger, reinforces that the Pattern was prepared for Moggy, since this is the *only* time that Gaidal has been younger, thus necessitating that Birgitte is still tied to him in order to keep Min's viewing from failing.
Being still tied together, the Pattern may still be providing for them to be together through Birgitte's slowing with Elayne.
Eventually, as Gaidal matures, Birgitte's apparent age will begin to match her true age (as figured from the moment that Moggy ripped her out of TAR, not her age including TAR time - since that would go back to the moment of creation, probably).
Let's say she appears to be 30 at the moment she is ripped out. At that moment, let's say Gaidal was 1 year old. 29 years pass, and Birgitte now appears to be 35 while Gaidal is now 30. In truth, Birgitte is only 29 herself.
This way, their ages will match up, and the Pattern will keep them tied together. Also, this way Min's viewing does not fail.
Assumptions Freely Admitted To:
1) That Min's viewing of the man tied to Birgitte refers to Gaidal
2) That RJ did not make a simple mistake with Birgitte and Min relating different takes on Gaidal's age relation to Birgitte
3) That Birgitte is still and will for the foreseeable future be tied to Gaidal
4) That Birgitte is *still* a hero of the horn, or will do something in this lifetime to earn that position again, so that when she and Gaidal die in this lifetime they will be returned to TAR together.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2004-01-24
Your ideas are interesting. We don't know if what Birgitte is experiencing has more to do with a female-female bond, instead of some other form of connection they might have. Also, we know that warders die, and they don't live the long lives Aes Sedai do, but they are given health and strength through the bond. And I thought we knew that the mood of an Aes Sedai can be felt by her warders and mimicked depending on its ferocity. But my major problem with your theory is the fact that you readily admit the Pattern is aware of what was going to happen to Birgitte, as seen through Min's viewing, suggesting that the Pattern is okay if Birgitte falls for a younger Gaidal, negating the necessity that Gaidal be older than Birgitte. So, I am not sure that the slowing you suggest might be happening, has anything to do with the age difference between Gaidal and Birgitte. But your other ideas stands as plausible; can the life-extending properties of channeling the one power somehow be shared over a type of bond?
2
Callandor: 2004-01-24
**Note: I think something fundamental could be done by Moridin, or anyone using the True Power, since that comes from the DO and is outside the Pattern, but I do not think that Moggy was using the TP.)**
Good note, since Moggy is terrified of the TP.
I do not think that Warders slow in according to their Aes Sedai. I believe they die or are released from service before old age kills them.
Also, what is to say that if Birgitte were to die, that the Pattern wouldn't wait till Gaidal died and put him out first again to correct the cycle, without Birgitte slowing?
3
Dai Shan: 2004-01-24
Just in Response to Tamrylins question whether the bond between an Aes'Sedai and her warder give the warder life stretching properties. I believe it so simply for the reason that the Aes'Sedais warder would become to old to fullfill his duties and the Aes'Sedai would have to deal with too many warder deaths if they aged normally.
4
Murrin: 2004-01-25
IMO, I think Birgitte/Gaidal Cain is one of the small things RJ won't resolve by the end of the series. I have no ideas about it, but I think RJ put in the Min younger/older thing to let us know that they will end up together again eventually (most likely when his current incarnation grows up), though we will not see it.
5
Dorindha: 2004-01-25
I like the ideas in this - don't know how much I agree, and I don't think it is something that will ever be particularly cleared up by the books.
However, I think part of the point here is that the only reason Birgitte might slow is not that warders do usually, but due to the strange nature of having a female only bond, that has already caused certain things to happen. I think it is likely that warders do have a longer natural life than most (though not to the extent of slowing - like maybe 100 rather than 80years old) as they are hardier than normal men.
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rubbernilly: 2004-01-25
Just a note about this theory...
...it is not predicated on the normal relationship between an AS and her warder. In forming this theory I was thinking that it is specifically because of the female-female bond that more will be shared between Elayne and Birgitte.
It is an interesting question to ponder if a warder gets a measure of longer life in a female AS to male warder bond, but I'm saying that a female-female bond is different.
And, Callandor, what you suggest (about the wheel just waiting until both Gaidal and Birgitte are both in TAR again to 'reset' itself and their story) is very possible. I formed this theory to answer the other odds and ends pieces that we know about Birgitte and Gaidal's relationship. For instance, the Min's viewing of the same man being sometimes older, sometimes younger - even though we know from Birgitte that Gaidal is always born first. If the Wheel waited for them to just naturally return to TAR, then the only way to satisfy Min's viewing (resolving it against what Birgitte said) is if the Wheel then reversed their birth order. That would make future incarnations of Birgitte older than future incarnations of Gaidal.
That's a possibility, to be sure, but it almost writes off this entire lifetime for Gaidal and Birgitte being separated. They just have to live out this "lame-duck" life until they can get reunited.
I like the way *this* theory ties things up, but it is still only a theory.
7
Isabel: 2004-01-25
Hmm Jordan did answer a question if warders slow. While he was in the netherlands. Don't know if it helps:
Q: Do warders have a regular lifespan?
quote:
Yes they do. They hang on to what you would call 'vitality' longer than the average man, but they live a normal lifespan. They do get things out of the bond, but not a longer life.
8
Davian93: 2004-01-25
Warders most likely dont gain any real longevity from the bond. We know that Lan is in his mid-40's and from most of the descriptions we get of him put him at about that age physically. We know warders get stamina, the ability to sense the DO's creatures, a cool cloak, and a high probability of dying in battle. Warders probably dont die from old age all that often simply because of the fairly dangerous lives they have. Birgitte, while she shares many things with Elayne because of the bond, probably wont slow. Slowing comes from working with the power. Even with the bond and them both being female, Birgitte cant touch or sense the power so she cant get any direct benefits from it.
9
dragonsceptor: 2004-01-26
I think the discussion above makes it clear that the normal AS and warder bond does not provide longevity to the warder. However, I do agree that warders do not become frail with age to the extent that normal men do. An example of this is the warder of the AS sisters that Moraine visits (I think it was Vandene and Adelas). Moraine is attacked by a Drakkar and the old warder was out there with his sword fighting. Do many of you know any old men that can get out there with a sword and fight? I know I don't.
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Korell: 2004-01-26
New Spring Spoiler
Based on new spring Lan would indeed be aproxamatly 40 actually i belive mid 40's and he does look in his mid 40's we know that Rand was Born aproxamatly 18 years before Lan and Moiraine arrive in Edmonds Field so we know he is probly somwhere in his early 20's i would estimate possbily mid needless to say if he did slow with Moi then he would still look about 25 or so
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Frenzy: 2004-01-26
i wouldn't worry about Birgitte's apparent age in relationship to Gaidal's. 20 years between paramours isn't all that uncommon (Lan and Nynaeve), though usually it's an older man with a younger woman. (there's a feminist joke in here, but i'll spare everyone)
Jordan has gone out of his way to show us that there are differences in bonding when the bonded pair is not your standard Aes Sedai and non-channeling man. Who knows how far those differences extend?
Though considering that it's working with the One Power that slows a woman's aging, i doubt that Birgitte will slow. Then again, she may slow a little bit due to her unconscious mimicing of Elayne (though in the books, it's Elayne's courses that shifted, not Birgitte's. minor nitpick).
And here's where i'll diverge a bit from your theory and rile up a whole bunch of people. Min's viewing of Birgitte is not limited to her current incarnation. Too many images and auras for one lifetime. So either Min is seeing Birgitte's future lives, or she's seeing echoes of her previous incarnations. Which is more likely, considering that the current incarnation of Birgitte encompasses ALL of those previous incarnations. Birgitte's tied to a man who's older than her in her past and probably in her future too. And she's tied to a man younger than her in her future, and it's the same man. Min's seeing more than one lifetime, which explains the discrepency in her Viewing.
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Tamyrlin: 2004-01-26
Nice one Frenzy...hmm...is it possible that some that are not clear to Min deal with future or past lives...wow, that does change things a bit.
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rubbernilly: 2004-01-26
Frenzy -
How do you resolve the older *and* younger portion of Min's viewing against what Birgitte says herself:
Gaidal is always born first.
Therefore, all of the past lives have been where Gaidal was the elder.
In order for Min's viewing to be true, it must deal with either this lifetime, or future lifetimes, or both.
As I wrote to Callandor, if Birgitte does *not* slow, then even in this lifetime, Gaidal is still older. It would only be future lifetimes wherein Birgitte would have the opportunity to be the elder. Therefore, in the case where Birgitte does *not* slow in this lifetime, the only way for the Wheel to weave Min's viewing into truth is to reverse Birgitte and Gaidal's birth order. Like I said, that's a possibility, but it basically writes this lifetime off, it would seem to me.
20 years is already stretching the bounds of paramour, however I put Birgitte as about 30. That is just out-of-bounds.
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Davian93: 2004-01-26
As for Elaynes courses matching Birgittes, or the other way around. That might not even have anything to do with the bond. Its been proven in real life that women who are close friends and are always together often have their courses change to match up. I think I read it in a sociology class about this happening a bunch of times.
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Unicorn: 2004-01-26
Basically I disagree with this. There is nothing as far as I can tell to indicate that Birgitte should “slow”. I think, in line with Murrin and Dorindha that the Gaidal Cain/Brigitte thing will not really be cleared up. I all events the series will probably not continue long enough for even Elayne to achieve “agelessness”.
It is however ever true that the Bonding female/female is different. Bonding was not even known in AOL (some forsaken remarks on this, I think, after Nynaeve's healing of stilling/gentling/severing; I don't have the exact quote). So my guess would be that bonding was “invented” as some sort of response the Three Oaths, i.e. Aes Sedai needed some sort of way to fight back (an AS can as far as I recall compel warders to do things). Whatever happens if the “bondee” is female was probably never even considered. Muscle was needed (I'm sure the AS felt that cunning and intuition was not needed/they had that themselves (me trying not to get on the bad side of Frenzy)).
The “alignment” of the female cycle is as far as I know not even RJ's invention, it apparently happens also in real life if women are together a lot (work and the like! , you naughty ones), and I guess bonding would count as that. (on a personal note I have worked several places being the only male around 10-12 females, and yes sometimes it felt as if they were all PMS at the same time, not entirely that funny to be around)
As for Min's viewing, I'm sure some literature professor would roast me slowly for saying this but, even though false comparatives are not “correct English” could it not just be that the man Min sees is not always the same age, it says nowhere that the man is older/younger compared to Birgitte – and here I must agree with Frenzy, Min's viewing cannot be limited to one lifespan (this or another) as the men are different men, they are not described as being the same man at different ages.
In someway what puzzles me is how come one of the supergirls (that would be Elayne) has such difficulty figuring out how to bring Birgitte back into TAR, but maybe this is why the “Egwene must not know the truth about Birgitte” was dragged out so long. Because Egwene clearly knows the way, as this was what she did when leaving the Aiel to go to Salidar. But this might come about yet.
In the end I don't think we will encounter a live Gaidal, I think this has been covered in a theory called “why no one over the age of one can be Gaidal Cain” (didn't read it sorry), Unless on the offchance someone rips Gaidal Cain ot of there as well, so IMO they will have to wait, some time before they get together (sorry, Frenzy, I agree that age is no barrier, but I don't think Mrs. Robinson will come into this).
Big question is still (to me anyway) what will happen when Mat blows the horn again, will Birgitte be torn totally apart, or nothing. What will happen. Was any known (true*) Hero of the Horn absent at Falme? If so have we “met” them yet.
*sorry couldn't help myself, guess my chances of ever being raised to that, or maybe even elder in less that ten years, just went out the window ;-)
16
Stanzi: 2004-01-26
First off, it's true that women's courses will match each other. My sister's and mine were always at the same time growing up, as was our mom's. (Our poor dad!)
Secondly, I think Birgitte freaking out over Gaidal being born after her was due to insecurities...she says something to the effect of, "oi, even if we found each other, he wouldn't want an old lady for a sweet heart!" She probably KNOWS he'll end up diggin her, but she's starting to be more scatter brained as time goes on. She's seemed to have lost her cool a bit, too.
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dragonsceptor: 2004-01-26
I don't think we know enough Hero's of the Horn to know whether any were missing at Falme. However, Birgitte is not the only one that is going to be in the world when the Horn is blown. We know Gaidal was born and he is also a Hero. It has also been discussed that LTT (aka Rand) is also a Hero. If Heros are bound to the wheel to be reborn as they are needed, I can't imagine that anything bad would happen to them if they were alive at the time the Horn was blown. After all, if things were bad enough to need the Horn, wouldn't they usually be bad enough to need Heros? This isn't the first time the Horn has been blown. This must have been an issue at some time in the past. I think that if it was an issue, all the heros would know about and Birgitte would remember.
18
Great Lord of the Dark: 2004-01-26
Is it possible Elayne screwed up the weave? I thought she made a mention of this... Anyway, a botched weave might account for the Warder aging you are describing, more so than just the sex difference.
19
Callandor: 2004-01-26
**As I wrote to Callandor, if Birgitte does *not* slow, then even in this lifetime, Gaidal is still older. It would only be future lifetimes wherein Birgitte would have the opportunity to be the elder. Therefore, in the case where Birgitte does *not* slow in this lifetime, the only way for the Wheel to weave Min's viewing into truth is to reverse Birgitte and Gaidal's birth order. Like I said, that's a possibility, but it basically writes this lifetime off, it would seem to me.**
Think of it like this: if the Pattern knows when Birgitte and Gaidal need to be put back into the Pattern, and has been cheated by Moggy in an unknown way (or may it is known, who knows how far the Pattern plans ;)), what is to stop it from going back to its original cycle once Birgitte dies? Nothing. She is a Hero (no, she has not been reduced of that, once one, always one), she is needed to be put out into the Pattern at specific times, and this is one of them.
And again, the cycle technically isn't in error now: Gaidal was born first. I really don't see this as a problem, as the Pattern determines when Birgitte and Gaidal are put back into the Pattern, not going by the ages they are now.
**Big question is still (to me anyway) what will happen when Mat blows the horn again, will Birgitte be torn totally apart, or nothing. What will happen. Was any known (true*) Hero of the Horn absent at Falme? If so have we “met” them yet.**
Rand is LTT reborn. LTT is a Hero. It is speculated (and I believe it) that Mat is a Hero reborn, as well as Perrin; but that is just speculation.
Going by what happened to Rand at Falme, nothing would happen to Birgitte if the Horn were sounded. She is living now, not needed to be called to battle by the Horn. It is a pet theory of mine that all the reborn Heroes are naturally attracted by the Horn as almost a ta'veren force. When it is needed to be sounded, they come.
So Birgitte won't be torn apart or anything when the Horn is sounded, but she will take part in the Battle that it is used for ;).
20
Lan: 2004-01-27
I just wonder at the apparent assumtion the Birgitte is near 30 years old. In most of her interactions with the girls, she takes the role of an older sister, but that doesn't necessarily make her that old. Now, if someone can find a passage that specifically mentions her apparent chronological age, then Ill accept that, but I always pictured her as essentially the same age as Elaye, which puts her at near 20, which fits in with your 20 year age limit on paramours... though I frankly think that age is not an issue if people truly love each other. I think you're all looking way too deeply into this. Min's viewing, IMHO, merely means that she will find Gaidal again. And yes, this time he will be younger, because Birgitte really is about 20. She's not going to do some reverse aging thing, or not age, she's going to continue from where she is now, and age normally. She'll meet Gaidal, and they will fall for each other, just like they've always done.
21
Unicorn: 2004-01-27
Where does it say that the dragon is a hero of the horn, the heroes know him, yes, but that does not make him one of them, I don't believe it is said right out anywhere that "the dragon incarnation" is bound to the horn. The horn was not blown by the end of AOL, Jordan says so in the answer to the first "question of the week"
22
4Alethinos: 2004-01-27
Birgitte knows that in the past that she has always been "born" after Gaidal Cain. In this instance, she was not born she was ripped out of TAR without a birth. There is no contradiction here with Min's viewing of Birgitte. Since I hold, along with RJ, that all Min's viewings are future, then it will occur again that Birgitte will be born before Gaidal Cain.
Birgitte's statement as the the priority of birth only proves again that Min has a future viewing of the two and that in the future Birgitte will be born first.
Yes, the viewing clearly encompasses a lot of lives in the future.
I think that the evidence for Birgitte to slow is rather minimal since it seems to be based on a harmonization of "Courses". Not enough, IMO.
23
rubbernilly: 2004-01-27
::Callandor::
"Think of it like this: if the Pattern knows when Birgitte and Gaidal need to be put back into the Pattern ... what is to stop it from going back to its original cycle once Birgitte dies? Nothing."
Cal, the Pattern cannot go back to the original birth order (at least, not permanently)... not and satisfy Min's viewing. Read my explanation below.
::Callandor::
"And again, the cycle technically isn't in error now: Gaidal was born first."
I completely agree. So for this lifetime and all previous to this, according to Birgitte, Gaidal was born first. That means that it must be future lifetimes that satisfy Min's viewing where Birgitte is older.
So, as you say, the Pattern can determine how and when to put Birgitte and Gaidal back on the scene - and in what order - but that can only be rectified in future lives. Though a possibility that this is what will happen, to me that option basically writes off this lifetime between them.
Not evidence, just an opinion that that is not how RJ works. I think that this lifetime will have some meaning for Birgitte and Gaidal, and short of Birgitte returning to TAR (by death or means of the power), I am trying to envision a scenario where she will remain physically in the world and have some relationship with Gaidal.
::Lan::
"I just wonder at the apparent assumtion the Birgitte is near 30 years old. In most of her interactions with the girls, she takes the role of an older sister, but that doesn't necessarily make her that old. Now, if someone can find a passage that specifically mentions her apparent chronological age, then Ill accept that, but I always pictured her as essentially the same age as Elaye, which puts her at near 20..."
My pet theory is that TAR identities are like the residual self images of the Matrix. Heroes appear there as the strongest memory/description that people keep of them. Hawkwing had gray in his hair at Falme, didn't he? So there's a wide spread of ages in TAR. I think Birgitte is remembered as the already-successful-version of herself (obviously since that success caused her to be remembered in the first place). For that reason, I put her near/past 30; old enough to have had some adventure, but definitely not past her prime.
::Unicorn::
"Where does it say that the dragon is a hero of the horn...?"
RJ confirmed this in an interview.
24
Callandor: 2004-01-27
Here it says it, in an interview:
**Q: "Is this soul born in any other age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as The Dragon/TDR?"
A: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.**
**The horn was not blown by the end of AOL, Jordan says so in the answer to the first "question of the week"**
And this matters why? LTT (and Rand) are the Dragon reincarnated! They are in the Pattern; they are not able to be called when sounded by the Horn, as per what happened at Falme. Did Rand's soul leap out of his body and go fight the Seanchan? No, because he has been REBORN into the Pattern.
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Unicorn: 2004-01-29
"And this matters why? LTT (and Rand) are the Dragon reincarnated! They are in the Pattern; they are not able to be called when sounded by the Horn, as per what happened at Falme. Did Rand's soul leap out of his body and go fight the Seanchan? No, because he has been REBORN into the Pattern. "
And i suppose that Birgitte was reborn again too, you might call it a cesarian section but I for believe that Birgittes reemergence to the world was different.
26
Callandor: 2004-01-29
**And i suppose that Birgitte was reborn again too, you might call it a cesarian section but I for believe that Birgittes reemergence to the world was different.**
Yes, and no. Yes, she is in the world in the flesh. And no, because Moggy "short circuted" the Pattern to do it, according to RJ.
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The Bringer of Death: 2005-04-12
People Seem to forget the with the regular Aes Sedai the swear the three oaths on the oath rod which in effect stops the slowing process or greatly decreases its effect so of course with the regular bon the warder would not slow becuase the aes sedai don't slow yes the get the ageless look but the oldest aes sedai i believe talked about in the book was only 100 years which is atianable with out slowing
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Callandor: 2005-04-12
No, Aes Sedai still slow even with the Three Oaths sworn. It's just that they have a cap on their lifespan -- the longest they can possibly live is around 300 years or so (roughly half of what is possible for a channeler). They live to quite tremendous amount of years, however they still age physically like that of regular people (grey hair is the most obvious). But they still live lifespans that are impossible for regular people to live.
29
clocklotion: 2005-05-12
Well it seems to be the one thing that is keeping this theory back is that we don't really know what happens when a Aes Sedai and her Warder really do start to age and how they go about doing it. But wait, yes we do, I forget which book it is in, but soon after Moiraine and Lan 'rid' themselves of Rand and the gang, don't Moiraine and Lan go to visit two very old Aes Sedai to do some research and I remember very clearly their Warders being alive and quite well. A Draghkar attacks and I don't remember if it was Lan or one of the other old Warders that kills it, but the Warder was in good enough shape to at least be sparring with Lan which of course must be no small task. Let me know if this helps.
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clocklotion: 2005-05-12
It just occured to me that I didn't make my point with my last reply, so my point is this. If an aged Aes Sedai still has her former Warder from their own days of adventure, then surely the bond in some way shape or form at least slows the EFFECTS of aging (not aging it self) on the Warder, things like appearance, stamina, vitality, dexterity, alertness, intelligence, and all of these things, while they are still slowed somewhat do to old age are definetely minimized because of the bond Aes Sedai and Warders share.
31
JakOShadows: 2005-05-12
That does seem to be true. And it does stay in line with all the other characteristics we do know about, like Warders not needing sleep or being physically enhanced strength wise through the bond. That's probably what maintains they're vitality to their old age, even if they do look older. I'd be interested to see the effect of this on Damer Flynn.
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Merk: 2005-05-12
But we can't really rely on glimpses of old Aes Sedai and their Warders for evidence. An Aes Sedai can have more than one Warder in her time. She could get a new one every 20, 30 or whatever years when one dies or gets too old or whatever (hmm, wonder if there's a retirement program for really old Warders). Anyway, RJ said in an interview quoted in this thread that Warders don't have a longer lifespan than normal.
I think Min sees Birgitte's interactions with Gaidal in this life, in which B will be older than G, and also in future lives, when B will be born normally, after G as the Pattern has done it in the past. Normally, Min can't see visions of future lives of people (or at least we've had no indication of it, even with Heroes like Rand), but because of the way Birgitte was ripped out of TAR and the connection she retained with her past lives, I think it's possible she retains a connection with her future lives that make viewings of them visible to Min.
(For some reason Birgitte's situation reminds me the dude who killed Macbeth, who is told he can't be killed by anyone born of woman. He meets a dude in battle and brags about this prophecy, but the dude points out that he was born by the Elizabethan version of Cesearian, not born "normally," and promptly beheads Macbeth.)
