Tamyrlin: 2003-06-09

This is a common theory. Everyone reads the section where Rand sees the ancestors of the Aiel seed singing with the Ogier, and immediately a light goes off, "the song." Fortunately, we know that there is no magic song that will find the Lost Tinkers. In fact, we know it has nothing to do with the song. The Tinkers are searching for Peace, hence, the Way of the Leaf. They traditionally are seeking out a peaceful land where they can practice their beliefs once more. Their heritage is one of peace and service, and that tradition, the seeking out of their ancestral heritage, is what asking about the "Song" is all about. The servants of the Aes Sedai were much more than singers of songs, and it is quite clear that they didn't sing, ONE song. I don't think Perrin will locate some song, or that Rand will begin singing. Perrin will help to bring about the Way of the Leaf once more. That is when the Tinkers will find the peace, after the Last Battle, and the re-establishment of the Way of the Leaf (in my opinion) beginning in Rhuidean.

rubbernilly: 2003-06-09

We know nothing of the kind, Tamyrlin. There is no reason to assume that just because many of these growing songs were sung - rather than just one - that the "Song" the Tinkers search for does not refer to them.

Years of wandering could have turned the knowledge of many songs into the folklore of *a* song.

Besides, there is the strong circumstantial evidence that the very name of "The Way of the Leaf" gives to this idea: namely, the concern with growing-things. Certainly that could have growing songs as its roots.

Weird Harold: 2003-06-09

...Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land that green things will grow and the valleys give forth lambs. Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time.

(from _Charal Drianaan te Calamon, The Cycle of the Dragon._ Author unknown, the Fourth Age)

Tamyrlin, the very first fragment of prophecy, quoted in part above, definitely forshadows Rand singing "seed songs."

There is also a viewing of Min's that associates Perrin with growing trees, although Loial may have fulfilled that one by singing to the trees around Perrin's family's graves.

Solomonrex, I do think Tamyrlin has a point about the Tinker's blood being diluted by intermarriage to the point where very few, if any, have the Voice.

Rand and the Aiel Clan Chiefs are the most likely suspects for rediscovering seed singing, because they're the only ones alive who know of it other than the Forsaken.

Loial and the few remaining Westland Ogier "tree-singers" will be involved as well in applying the Seed-Singing to curing the ills of the land, but I don't think the Tinkers will be.

The song the Tinkers seek is more place than melody. I don't recall the exact words of the first Tinker when they left the Aiel wagon train, but it was Peace and a "place" where the Song could bring it that they went in search of.

The Leveler: 2003-06-10

I agree with Solomonrex. The years decayed the Tinker's knowledge, just as they decayed the "Aes Sedai's" knowledge.

Korell: 2003-06-10

I believe "The Song" is just a metaphor, maybe the song is more like the one waiting for the one that will cause realization i have to agree with the TAM again i think that there is no "ONE" song but it give the Tinkers purpose to keep going and oneday the way of the leaf will be restored and they will be able to get on with it

Strongbow: 2003-06-11

Here is a slightly different theory? What if the 'seed songs' have the same tune as the song the aiel sing to the dead. It is the only song they sing and so is possible to have been passed down from when they were daishain.

Corlm: 2003-06-12

Well the idea is that...The tinkers sang with the Ogier and the green-man would join in harmony to sing to entire crops and corn would grow like trees to inredible sizes. and that the tinkers ran away and followed the way of the leaf the old people must of died or something and with them the singing method. so they search for the song but they dont know exactly what it is. I think the whole thing wont come together but if it does the hole trade thing going bad and people starving would probably be solved. or maybe after the alst battle itll all come back.

heronblade: 2003-06-13

I think perrin will make the connection between the groups and the lord of the morning singing quote does suggest rand will be included in the song. i think this could be the male ballance to the female bowl of winds. it could restore the blight "No blight would touch those plants, nor any insect;"

Shadow Bane: 2003-06-15

It is my own personal belief that the "Song" is the one and only song the Aeil men sing, the song of mourning. After all tinkers and aeil dont interact so it is reasonable to beleive that a tinker would never have heard aeil sing. also i think this might have a connection to the aeil "dance", if i remember correctly the tinkers have va special dance of their own too.The aeil dance in war and the tinkers sing in peace, it all kind of comes full circle.

Weird Harold: 2003-06-15

"The aeil dance in war and the tinkers sing in peace, it all kind of comes full circle."

Perhaps the song Mat regrets teaching his troops -- "To Dance With Jack o' The Shadows" -- is The Song; it's singing about dancing. ;)

heronblade: 2003-06-16

i have been thinking about the ogier gardeners with the sach', why would rj have intoduced ogiers that have obviously escaped the effects of the longing. i remember loial saying something about the ogier loosing so much when the longing took them. could these warrior ogiar have remembered what our peace loving ones have lost?

Shadow Bane: 2003-06-17

Weird Harold-

Thanks I never thought of that. Ill have to look into it but it does make sense because i beleive Mat remebered it from the AoL.

Callandor: 2003-06-17

Mat doesnt have memories from the AoL. His memories go from the Trolloc Wars to about when Hawkwing comes to full power.

Its my belief that the Seanchan ogier have escaped the Longing, because they took up fighting instead. Sort of what Siuan did when she got stilled, she replaced her desire for the Power with a crusaide.

Shadow Bane: 2003-06-17

Sorry did I really say Aol? Wow im slippin' big time! Yeah any ways i still think the aeril song of mourning is the song, and the aeil war dance has something to do with the tuathans song of peace.

Cambo: 2003-06-18

Dancing with Jack O Shadows is not the song that the tinkers are looking for. Mat makes it quite clear that it is an old forgotten soldiers song about death. It would be obscene to think that this was the song that would "ward of the blight".

solomonrex: 2003-06-18

The longing takes years to manifest itself. There's no proof the Ogier Gardeners are immune to the longing. They could easily do short tours of duty for the Empress and rotate back to the stedding from time to time.

Weird Harold: 2003-06-18

Apologies to everyone for forgetting that sarcasm isn't always obvious in text only formats.

Jack o'the shadows was suggested as a greater absurdity to highlight what I thought was an absurd suggestion.

The Tinker's Song that will be rediscovered is not any one singular song, but rather the "Voice" required for seed-singing and the Harmonies that employ it to best effect.

rubbernilly: 2003-06-19

<-- finds himself in complete agreement with Weird Harold.

perlchild: 2003-06-19

Perhaps the song Mat regrets teaching his troops -- "To Dance With Jack o' The Shadows" -- is The Song; it's singing about dancing. ;)

I made a prediction about that, pre CoT

Shadow Bane: 2003-06-19

I agree that makes alot of sense but how do you think it will be found? Alot of people seem to think Perrin will but I dont get why he's neither Aeil nor Tuathan.

spearmaiden: 2003-07-09

hmm, I hadn't thought about The Song = The Voice, rather than an actual song or a general feeling of peace. That idea has merit, much more merit than them looking for a particular song. Maybe the Voice actually manifests itself in Rand (after all, he is half Aiel) and that would explain why the Lord of the Morning has to sing to make green things grow. Maybe that's part of why Cadsuane has to teach him to laugh and sing, although of course she doesn't know it yet.

Haha, if the Voice really is what the Tinkers are looking for, that definitely rules out Perrin (besides him not being descended from Aiel) -- when he and the Two Rivers men are running around hunting Trollocs, they all sing but he does not because he had been told often that he sounds like a goat when he sings. :)

Weird Harold: 2003-07-09

Spearmaiden says, "Haha, if the Voice really is what the Tinkers are looking for, that definitely rules out Perrin ... they all sing but he does not because he had been told often that he sounds like a goat when he sings."

Perrin's singing voice when he was younger may not have any relevance to what whether he has "the Voice" for singing seed-songs. Many people do not develop their singing voice until well after Puberty and often mistake the troubles puberty causes with singing for a permanent inability to sing.

Perrin may have developed a beautiful singing voice that he just never uses because he didn't have one when younger.

The Prophecy says the Lord of the Morning will sing to bring health back the land, but it doesn't say who will teach him "seed-singing" or how to invoke the Voice. Rand is presented as the most musically inclined of the Ta'veren trio, but the very fact that Perrin firmly believes he can't sing could be foreshadowing that he in fact can.

rubbernilly: 2003-07-10

One of the posters above pointed out that if the Song = the Voice (an astute observation that seems to be what most of the supporters of 'Tinkers Songs Are Real' believe, I think, but could never quite put so succinctly) then Perrin is ruled out, being not descended from Aiel.

Do we have *any* proof one way or the other that in addition to the Ogier and Nym it was only *Aiel* men who were involved with the singing?

I don't have the BWB, so correct me if I'm wrong, but perhaps the Dashain Aiel were not a separate genome of the population. Maybe they were just those who went into service for the AS of the AoL. Over the harsh years spent in the Waste, natural selection shaped them into the recognized Aiel features: tall, lean, fair haired, etc.

If that is true, then it isn't necessarily true that Perrin is not descended of Aiel, or rather, it doesn't matter. Have we EVER seen a Talent manifest in only one race (other than Ogier or Nym)? There are Aiel dreamers and non-Aiel dreamers. Foretellers are across the board. It makes sense that the Voice would be universal as well. So Perrin could still have that talent hidden in him.

To recap: Perhaps the aiel of the AoL were no different than non aiel except for the choices that they mande. However, even if the dashain-aiel-as-position-rather-than-race idea is incorrect, the idea that the Talent of the Voice is universal still allows for Perrin to have it.

a dragonburned fool: 2003-10-21

Actually the central role in the seed song is not that of the Aiel or the Ogier but that of the Nym. And there is no Nym more. Nym is stated in BWB to be OP-utilizing construct created by AoL AS. And the Da'shain (and the Ogier) co-operate with that OP-act - the Nym dance, only in thet co-operation forming the rite known as the seed song. In other words, if the seed song is "The Song" (and I agree at least it's one of the major uses of "the Song"), the Song is some form of non-chanelling co-operation with the OP. So, I agree, one needs special talent - "the Voice", probably a genetical talent; and maybe Rand is needed for the song.

Something more: there is somebody's a theory posted in wotmania, titled "The song of saidin", where the Song problem is linked with Rand's before-Falme saidin experience: the encharmins song of the saidin itself. There is a suggestion that the taint-free saidin sings like the taint-free saidar is seen as light, and the more one channels tainted saidin, he becomes deaf to the song ("blind woman, deaf man" :-)). So the Song could be an acustical help for right harmonizing with saidin...

Cor Shan: 2003-10-21

Fool! [sry couldn't resist] That was a metaphor (I think).

ThunderWalker: 2004-04-07

So, is "Voice" inherited (that is, a Talent that may only manifest in someone of Aiel blood)? Or is it a gift that comes with following a non-violent lifestyle (Way of the Leaf and Tinkers)? Or is it a combination of both? How many of the Aiel who have "thrown down the spears" have gone over to the Tinker life style?

If both, then maybe an Aiel who has been gai'shain for a while would manifest the talent, like those how refuse to give up gai'shain after their year and a day is up.

The Nyms were living Ter'angreal created by the Aes Sedai in the Age Of Legends. And ter'angreal are artifacts that use the One Power. With that in mind, perhaps one (or more) channelers could take the place of a Nym in the Song/Dance.

Rand is both Aiel, and a channeler. Maybe Rand is the Song. (After all, he is grand poobah for every other group). Maybe a combination linked channelers with sa'angreal AND Song, (which includes the Tinkers), will seal the Dark One's prison. That would give the Tinkers a non-violent function in the last battle. Unless they, and the Song, are used as a clean-up crew after the battle is done.

BTW, I don't suppose there is a Nym seedling hiding in a stasis box somewhere. Or maybe Rand (with a few Wise Ones, or maybe Loial) could Sing a Nym back to life (combining OP and Song to re-create the Nym ter'angreal).

fistandantilus: 2004-10-13

I think I found a quote that is very relevant to this conversation.

Book: The Eye of the World

Paperback, pg. 640

*"The Travelling People live for their songs," Loial said. "For all songs, for that matter. For the search of them at least. I met some Tuatha'an a few years back, and they wanted to learn the songs we sing to trees. Actually, the trees won't listen to very many anymore, and so not many Ogier learn the songs. I have a scrap of that Talent, so Elder Arent insisted I learn. *I taught the Tuatha'an what they could learn*, but the trees never listen to humans. *For the Travelling People they were only songs, and just as well received for that, since none was the song they seek.*"'

I just started re-reading the series, and I am surprised that this quote has been overlooked so often. The Seeker Perrin meets(sorry forgot his name) says that though his people do not know what the Song sounds like, they will know it if they hear it. We must assume that this is true for all the Tuatha'an, and no one who heard Loial sing his treesong knew it for *the* Song. So the treesong being part of The Song seems to be out of the question. Personally, I think the song is an ideal more that an actual song, which is how the Tinkers will know it when they find it. The Song, as important as it has become to the Travelling People seems to be more of a place of complete peace, violence free, where they will not be persecuted for their belief in the Way of the Leaf.

KINGofWOLVES: 2005-10-28

I havent read this whole thread, so this might alrady have been mentioned.

We all know that the tinkers were the people who refused to reak the beleifs of the dai'shain aiel. They are looking for the seed song, and now there are only a handful of people who have heard it, and no chane of reviving it. The songs success required three things.

1. Aiel singers

2. Ogier treesingers

3. The dance of a nym

The tinkers, being the only "true aiel" who kept to the aiel way of the leaf, are the only people who have the legend of the song. I would like to point out that the tinkersreally like their traditions.

They started a new tradition of using wagons, after their ansestors used the wagons to continue the task of the aes sedai and save the ter angrael, so why not keep looking for their greated legasy and role in the Age of Legends, the Song.

Also, if the tinkers ever meet rand again, it seems likely that he will xplain the whole thing to them, and it will completely skhake their world to learn that the song is dead without a nym.

WoTTheorist: 2005-12-01

Since the 11th has come out, I believe the song is in one of the ter'angreal that Elayne and Aveindha are looking through. I don' have the book with me, but she says one of the ter'angreal stores songs from a long time ago. It's very very possible that the Tinkers song is contained inside there.

Rhiale: 2006-01-07

Well, for one quick thing, the Tinkers weren't the ones to continue the job assigned by the AS during the breaking. If you remember Rand's visions in Rhuiden, you will remember that after one raid on the wagons, son of the Aiel abandoned the quest to find a safe place for the objects in the wagon. They claimed, and sorry if I don't get it right, don't have the book at hand and can't remember perfectly, they wanted to go back to their songs and the way that things were before, and then emptied the wagons and stole them from the last of the Jen Aiel. I belive that thes are the true ancestors of the tinkers, and that their urge to return to the old ways of singing and peace has become the search for the song. Even though they no longer realize it is more than one song, they are still on the path of those Aiel that abandoned the AS. As for who finds it and how, well, I have thought about this a lot. I believe that now that it is known that the Aiel and Tinkers decend from basically the same people, eventually, the Tinkers will be allowed to visit Rhuiden, and somehow eventually go into the columns and see their past.

Still doesn't explain how Rand is involved, but maybe they find the song, and he sings it successfully. Like it has been said, the "Voice" for singing is required. Rand finds his voice, Cadsuane teaches him to sing or some such, the Tinkers teach him the song, and then he sings. One thing is missing though, and that is the Nym. This is where I think Elayne comes in. Since she can create ter'angrel, maybe she somehow discovers how to recreate a Nym, with rand or some other Asha'man (Logain maybe?) but who knows. Maybe I'm just a total idiot and wrong, but I believe I'm on to something with all this, just not sure what.

haertchen: 2006-01-09

I really hate to rain on this parade, but I always dislike speculation about what's going to happen after the LB. Lets do a quick look at the cosmology:

1) The wheel of time consists of seven ages.

2) The ages are generally similar every time they come around, despite differences.

3) This is more speculative, but each age is usually socially very different from the one before it. The general fabric is different, let alone the little details.

The age which involved peace, happiness, bumper crops, singing, and the universal use of the OP was the age of legends. It is *over* until the wheel turns *six more times*. It's not coming back.

I, personally, expect serious destruction at the last battle. I don't expect much that exists now to survive, and that includes the Tinker's songs. I belive they are the echo of something that won't come back for a long, long time, unless it's a one-time only event needed to stop the pattern from collapsing. But I don't expect the Tinkers to come back at all after the LB.

vardene: 2006-08-08

what i really wonder about is if the tinkers will rediscover their origins. will they go to rhuidean? how come they aiel have not tried to reconcile what rand told them with their beliefs concerning tinkers? especially those who threw down weapons like those in far madding? the last book, like the last battle may leave a lot unanswered, or perhaps it isnt the last...

Volpe: 2007-02-16

According to RJ, it IS the last book. And what a sad day it will be when i finish reading that:(

Anywho, I believe that this song of peace may be connected to Avendesora. I can't recall what they were called in the Age of Legends, but im pretty sure it started with a C. Well, these trees apparently had a calming effect of some sort, and the song the Tinkers might be looking for is the song that grows thos trees.

--I doubt anyone is actually gonna read this anyway...it took so long--

Gandelail: 2007-02-20

They were called Chora trees. Do we know that the Chora trees required a different song of growing than generic trees? Do we know that the song is a "song" (as in something that is sung).

Also, as far as we know, it is quite possible that some of the aiel who threw down the spear have tried to reconcile the Aiel past. It isn't something we have seen, but that doesn't meen it hasn't happened.

terez: 2007-02-21

Those would be chora trees, Volpe. ;)

I'm pretty sure that "the song" is a corrupted remembrance of the old ways of crop-singing. In other words, there is no one song that the Tinkers will know when they hear it. So, no one will be finding it.