Tamyrlin: 2005-02-12

Lewin, building your theory a bit more might have raised it above mere speculation. You could have discussed the likelihood of Faile "allowing" Perrin to "become a tinker", which sounds unlikely. You could have quoted the part of the book regarding Perrin giving up the Axe, and you could have connected Perrin's wolf-mentor, a friend of Tinkers, as an example of what might happen to Perrin. It is such a large theory, next time spend more time developing the idea.

bigjellybeans: 2005-02-13

I highly doubt it. Aiel for the most part do not wish to have anything to do with any tinkers. Also even if we were to look past that. No aiel that has gone to rhuidean talks about what they saw in it unless it is to someone else that has gone there.

Yaga Shura: 2005-02-16

I think maybe Rand will teach the Tinkers about the song, maybe not actually singing it but telling them where they can go to hear it i.e. Rhuidean. I agree with Tamyrlin that something like the relationship between Elyas and the Tinkers is more likely for Perrin. Don't forget that Aram abondoned TWotL after meeting Perrin, and the Tinkers were none too happy.

I can't see the Aiel becoming tinkers en masse, it just doesn't fit with the established mentality.

As for the broken crown thing, it could be a reference to many things. Maybe Perrin will cause a family fight in Saldea (Faile being royalty up there), or the Two Rivers will gain independence under him. Both of these would constitute a breaking of the power of a crown. Or it could be a reference to when Rand snapped the crown of Cairhien in half (ACoS?) and maybe Perrin will be wearing that some day. Whattever, I don't think we have enough to say yet what that crown means.

Aiel Finn: 2005-02-16

The Saldean crown is called the Broken Crown. Seeing that Perrin's wife is third in line for the throne, I could see him getting that crown rather easily. (Deveram does way too many dangerous things to live too much longer, and the queen is romping through Andor with an army)

Frenzy: 2005-02-16

i've always viewed the Tinkers' quest to Find the Song as a metaphor. It's their rote-mantra justification for their wandering lifestyle. It differentiates them from common vagrants. We the Readers know that there is an actual Song. But in reality what the Tinkers are looking for is a return to the good ol' days. There are elements of that 'return to utopia' motif in the Jendai Prophecy as well.

bigjellybeans: 2005-02-17

My question is 'What would the tinkers do once they find the song whether it be the song we know from Rands vision in the glass collums or a song we dont know about?'

Yaga Shura: 2005-02-19

My bad with the Saldean crown being called the Broke Crown. D'oh. And maybe I'm too suspicious (or stubborn), but doesn't that seem too obvious for RJ's style?

Yaga Shura: 2005-02-20

Aiel Finn,

Wait a minute. WHERE does it say that the Saldean crown is called the Broken Crown, or that Faile is third in line to the throne. If someone could give a quotation for this I would be grateful. I checked "the World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time" (BTW is this the BWB) under Saldea and it didn't mention the crown. Thankyou

Callandor: 2005-02-20

**Wait a minute. WHERE does it say that the Saldean crown is called the Broken Crown, or that Faile is third in line to the throne. If someone could give a quotation for this I would be grateful.**

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 46 - Beyond the Gate

Bashere filled the cups and thrust one at Perrin, gesturing peremptorily to one of the chairs. He wore a smile behind his mustaches, but eyes and smile could have belonged to two different men. The eyes could have driven nails. "~I suppose Zarine told you all about my estates before you.... married her. All about the Broken Crown.~ She was always talkative as a girl."**

**TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight, CHAPTER: PROLOGUE - Glimmers of the Pattern

In all truth, ~Tenobia~ did worry him. The Light only knew why Easar and the others had decided to leave the Blightborder together, much less strip away as many soldiers as hearsay said they had brought south. Even hearsay divided by half. Doubtless they had reasons they considered good and sufficient, and doubtless Tenobia shared them. But he knew her; he had taught her to ride, watched her grow up, ~presented her the Broken Crown when she took the throne.~ She was a good ruler, neither too heavy-handed nor too light, intelligent if not always wise, brave without being foolhardy, but impulsive was a mild description of her. Sometimes, hotheaded was mild. And he was as sure as he could be that she had her own goal aside from whatever the others aimed at. The head of Davram Bashere. If that was so, she was unlikely to settle for another period of exile, after coming this far. The longer Tenobia worried a bone in her teeth, the harder it was to convince her to give it up. It was a neat problem. She should be in Saldaea guarding the Blightborder, but so should he. She could convict him of treason twice-over at least for what he had done since coming south, but he still could see no other way to have gone. Rebellion - Tenobia could define that loosely when she chose - rebellion was horrible to contemplate, yet he wanted his head firmly attached to his neck a while longer. A neat and thorny problem.**

Tenobia is of course the Ruler of Saldaea and her uncle is Davram Bashere, father of Faile, whom is married to Perrin.

And the pattern of the succesion is explained here:

**TITLE: Path of Daggers, CHAPTER: Prologue - Deceptive Appearances

Tenobia was still young, though years past the age she should have wed—marriage was a duty for any member of a ruling House, the more so for a ruler; alliances had to be made, an heir provided—yet Ethenielle had never considered the girl for any of her own sons. Tenobia's requirements for a husband were on a level with everything else about her. He must be able to face and slay a dozen Myrddraal at once. While playing the harp and composing poetry. He must be able to confound scholars while riding a horse down a sheer cliff. Or perhaps up it. Of course he would have to defer to her—she was a queen, after all—except that sometimes Tenobia would expect him to ignore whatever she said and toss her over his shoulder. The girl wanted exactly that! And the Light help him if he chose to toss when she wanted deference, or to defer when she wanted the other. She never said any of this right out, but any woman with wits who had heard her talk about men could piece it together in short order. ~Tenobia would die a maiden. Which meant her uncle Davram would succeed, if she left him alive after this, or else Davram's heir.~**

Hence, the line goes:

1. Tenobia

2. Davram Bashere.

3. Faile.

It's unknown whether it would pass to Perrin or not, but it seems that it would go to Faile since it's not a strict King-ruled country, and Faile is Bashere's direct kin.

Yaga Shura: 2005-02-22

Thank you callandor for giving those quotes, at least I now know I was definitely wrong. Any thoughts on the "too obvious" thing?

WG: 2005-12-26

This is a GREAT theory! I'll have to reread the series again to remember how, but my theory is that Aviendha will find the song. Still, that doesn't mean she'll be the one to actually give it to them.

JakOShadows: 2005-12-31

I do think that Perrin is destined to help with the rebuilding. But that viewing that Min had doesn't mean that he has to help find the song, only help Loial rebuild the trees and the beauty of the world during the breaking and help create that tradition. If the song is relearned by some chance, then so be it, but it is not solid proof that it will definitely happen.

vergere6: 2006-01-02

yah, i like what WG says. Maybe one of those song box terangreal actually contain the song, and we know now that Aviendha has a way with terangreal.

I think the Aiel have to turn to TWOTL, at least the "remnant of a remnant", that'll really fulfill the Caracarn prophecy:"slay them with the leaf" or something like that. Of course it can be argued that that particular line refers to the bleakness, but to me it sounds more like an end to the AIEL themselves, they'll go back to being the Dashain.

"The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree

Again the seed slays ancient wrong":

The second part is one of the last 2 or 3 prophecies left for Tarmon Gaidon. Hammer=Perrin? Probably!

Makes sense, right?

Anubis: 2006-01-05

"The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree"

Nah, Hawkwing was the Hammer of the Light. His seed are the seanchan. The ancient tree is Tarabon I believe, which got royally burned by the Seanchan.

Callandor: 2006-01-07

It's technically Tarabon, but it can be more seen to be Almoth Plain, since that's where the Seanchan first landed (Falme of course), and the banner of Almoth was the Tree of Life.

But Tarabon is quite entrenched with Tree iconography as well (the Panarch's crown is the Crown of the Tree, Taraboner's call themselves the "Tree of Man," and so on).

Hugin and Munin: 2006-12-23

With this, I think the Aiel could potentially rekindle the Growth song amongst the timkers.

Can't remember the exact quote (Think its in TSR or FoH-rereading at moment), but from Wikipedia:

"The bleakness:

At Alcair Dal, Rand also revealed the secret he learned in the Rhuidean test, the secret that drove two out of three Aiel to insanity: that the Aiel had once been the Da'shain Aiel, and served the Aes Sedai, and followed the Way of the Leaf. To a culture that lives and dies by its oaths and fighting prowess, the news that they were all descendants of pacifist oathbreakers was devastating, and many Aiel have since succumbed to the resulting "bleakness". Some take on permanent gai'shain white, in the hope of paying off a debt that can never be repaid. More forsake spear and cadin'sor and attempt to live the Way of the Leaf in the wetlander cities — or among the Tinkers! — as their ancestors would have. Others simply disappear. And some of them run to join the Shaido, in denial of the truth, hoping for a return to an earlier, simpler time"

So i think its possible that either a Chief will give in to the bleakness, Rand will let Rael (as the only Mahdi we've seen - or he'll tell Perrin who'll encounter Rael) or as the Shaido are returning ans may have Brotherless with them who may encounter Tinkers etc etc etc.

But I think it is possible that it'll be returned (hell, maybe they'll Someshta's brother in a bloody Stasis Box!) and probably a portion of the two rivers given to a Tinker/Ogier paradise.

reddir: 2011-04-08

About the broken crown...

I know this is tangential and a bit late...

But, I think the crown Bashere presented to Tenobia might not be the crown of Saldea, but a relic of a lost kingdom.

A broken crown signifies a broken monarchy, which is not the case in Saldea...unless Saldea is the last remnant of a larger kingdom, or at least the remnant which considers itself the natural successor.

Basically, I think the broken crown represents something other than, or at least more than, the crown of Saldea.