o Habor's Stain
by Dedicated Gregor: 2003-06-25 | Not yet rated
Previous Categories: So Habor
Beginning with the stains of the people walking about the town, to the weevils so late in winter, to the sightings of the dead walking, something was blatantly wrong in So Habor. There can be no dount that every person from Perrin's group noticed the thick air and the suspicious townsfolk. Perrin smelled something wrong in that town, and it was more than just the prevalent stench of filth. What could all of this possibly mean, and if it wasn't important then why would it have been pointed out by RJ at all?
The first point I want to draw attention to before revealing my theory is So Habor's placing on the map. It's placed in the northern part of Altara, though the exact location is difficult to discern through what we know from the story. What we also know, however, is that Shadar Logoth was situated in the northern part of Altara before being destroyed (unless I'm completely off, which takes away from the validity of my theory somewhat).
Rand used the evil of Shadar Logoth as something of a tool or a conduit in his move to remove the taint from Saidin. However, what effect did that have on the taint that is ever-present in Shadar Logoth? Was it destoryed along with the remains of the city. along with Mashadar? Could it have escaped, spread, fled from the overwhelming amount of the Power weilded in destroying the city? My suggestion, my theory, is that something from the evil of Shadar Logoth has infected So Habor and that the city will soon fall to the same fate that corrupted Shadar Logoth.
Maybe through some working of the Dark One, or of Mordeth, the taint was able to infect So Habor; or maybe it was the inevitable balance of Light and Dark in the world of the Wheel of Time. However, if anyone can come up with another reason for the strange happenings in that mysterious city of So Habor, and the results of the destruction of Shadar Logoth, I'd certainly like to hear it.
You cannot rate theories without first logging in. Please
log in.
1
Tamyrlin: 2003-06-30
Well, Shadar Logoth is not that close. It is North and East of the Two Rivers. However, it is still very possibile that Fain is responsible for the infected city of So Habor. The problem is, we don't have any information to tie him to that city. Now, it would appear that the silence and strangeness comes from the dead walking. Also, Perrin smells something familiar, but he doesn't remember what it was. Fain was a dead spirit walking...so I would pin this mess on Fain before anyone else.
2
Weird Harold: 2003-06-30
So Habor is on, or near, the River Eldar. Shadar Logoth was near the River Arafelle above White Bridge. There is about 150 leagues (600 miles) between the closest possible estimates of where the two places are.
Further, So Habor's troubles with Ghosts began about one month before Perrin's visit, only ten days after the Cleansing of Saidin. So Habor's troubles can't be related to Shadar Logoth becuse they began at least two weeks before Shadar Logoth was destroyed.
Padan Fain is a possibility, but one I think is very remote -- Shadar Logoth's problems aren't the same sort of Paranoia that destroyed Aridhol.
IMHO, So Habor is simply suffering from a diffuse "Bubble Of Evil" or the after effects of one.
3
Shadow Bane: 2003-06-30
I agree Dedicated Gregor this could very well be true but we need some more info on where Fain is so until RJ dishes out the info it's RAFO...again...!
4
heronblade: 2003-06-30
the troubles started almost straght after the cleansing on sadin so could it be a result of that? or the taint of the do touching the earth as he gains power. he is lord of the dead afterall
5
Anubis: 2003-07-01
ya know, i make more and more connections, but they dont go anywhere.... ill leave that for the next guy.
perrin sees an ungodly ammount of darkhounds before so harbor. they sniff around, do nothing, and leave. whenever a dark character does nothing, i get nervous. somthing is going on behind the scenes.
my connection relies on two things. how far the darkhound superpack was from so harbor, and how fast the things can run.
my answer, same book, and pretty damn fast. so imo the dark one is definatly involved in so harbor. maybe it is a touching the world "experiment". but it is definatly his doing. he is clearly in the area so to speak.
6
Korell: 2003-07-01
I have posted a theory with the same thought that Fain had some affect on the city however the biggest problem is determining where the heck fain is we have not really heard much from him for a while and so therefore it is hard to discern where he is also i think it was said right that the paranoia is what took Aridohl rather then this so even though my own theory was very similar i am inclined to say so. However as for the evil in shadar logoth i dont belive that will have any part in anything because it was not the power that went towards that evil it was the taint the dark ones evil is what destroied it or should i say they destroied each other RJ has not dropped any clues to there being anything other then the cleansing worked and we all know how he likes to sneak in little tid bits to get us all wondering
7
Fade: 2003-07-01
I have always believed that Fain is responsible for So Habor. as i recall, SL was the base of Fains power, no? so once SL was destroyed Fain began to loose his power, and realized that he needed to create a new source for his power by corrupting So Habor. i believe that it was only by chance that he picked So Habor, because it was the closest town. now to prove that it was fain, i look at the darkhounds. i remember it being said that that many darkhounds would only be used to kill a very powerful foe. in the DO and forsaken's opinion, Fain is a very serious foe. the darkhounds may have passed by Perrins camp because Fain had been there, when he heard about Perrin.
8
Rhodric: 2003-07-01
Shadar Logoth was not the source of Fain's power. Mordeth was originally the source of SL's power, not the other way around. so the death of SL means nothing to him; he has the dagger as remembrance.
apart from this i agree with Fade, Fain passed through So Habor and corrupted it with his magic of suspicioun and distrust. and the Darkhounds are hunting Fain.
9
Anubis: 2003-07-07
so fain is getting more powerfull? cause he hasnt done that before. its possible. in fact i like it. it explains everything. but where did we last see fain? no channely town. he may have had time... do we see anything similar happening in no channeley town or do you think fain gained more power when shadar lagoth was destroyed?
10
Flinn: 2003-07-07
This is a great debate, but it hasn't answered the ghost problem (unless I missed something). As we all know, the DO has power over the souls of the dead. The DO also incorporated something of himself into Fain. This and mordeth have seemed to fuse. So, as part of Fains effect on so habor, he brought up some souls to stir things and make it easier for mordeth to make another SL.
11
Tamyrlin: 2003-07-07
I think you meant to say, "as we all know, the DO only controls the souls of those who have sold themselves to him." Kari Al'Thor was an illusion created not by the DO, but by Ishamael while in T'A'R with Rand hoping to convince Rand to swear allegiance to the DO. He frequently employed illusions in T'A'R to scare Rand.
12
Shadow Bane: 2003-07-07
Hey Tamrylin, thats not necessarily true...
Anyone who wants to know more check out Walking Dead, Rand's Decision. The DO is Master of the grave!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
13
Shadow Bane: 2003-07-07
As for the funky stuff going on in Randland, easy balefire. Balefire is messing with the pattern, Rand and the other channelers balefired one to many forsaken if you ask me.
14
Weird Harold: 2003-07-07
Anubis asks, "but where did we last see fain? no channely town. he may have had time... do we see anything similar happening in no channeley town or do you think fain gained more power when shadar lagoth was destroyed?"
Padan Fain was last seen on Blue Carp Street when Rand slashed through his illusion and apparently wounded him. He had been in Far Madding for at least 14 days at that point.
Perrin visited So Habor 11 days later -- some 150-200 leagues (600-800 miles) to the east of Far Madding. While there is no definite time frame established for the begining of So Habor's problems, they have obviously been present for some time -- at least a month -- and definitely predate both the Cleansing (9-10 days before Perrin's visit) and possibly Padan Fain's arrival in Far Madding.
Time and distance considerations make Padan Fain a very unlikely source for So Habor's problems, IMHO.
Flinn asserts, "As we all know, the DO has power over the souls of the dead."
As Elayne thinks when she returns to Caemlyn, "What everybody knows deserves careful exmination." Just because "everybody knows" the DO is "Lord of the Dead" does NOT mean that he is.
Events in the stories support Tamyrlin's position that, "...the DO only controls the souls of those who have sold themselves to him." The DO has NOT transmigrated, ressurected, or otherwise done anything with any soul that was not already "His," and in two cases admitted that he could NOT do anything with souls that *were* his because of Balefire. (Rahvin and Be'lal)
Flinn said, "This is a great debate, but it hasn't answered the ghost problem (unless I missed something)."
The "Ghost Problem" is not confined to So Habor, and is likely simply a side-effect of the DO's increased touch on the world rather than a deliberate action or plot by the DO and/or his minions.
So Habor matches Moiriane's prediction that the "bubbles of evil" would become more frequent but less concentrated after the first one appeared in Tear. In one sense, So Habor's ghosts are a just less intense "mass hallucination" than the more active "mass hallucinations" of inanimate objects attacking or mysterious fogs that eat people.
15
Rhodric: 2003-07-08
okay, so it's not Fain, since he couldn't run from the hills in Cairhien to Altara? Amadacia? and then back to Far Madding in such a short amount of time.
bubbles of evil... the simplest explanation is often the best.
Weird Harold has my vote.
16
Anubis: 2003-07-08
fain has free use of the ways. something impotrtant to remember when calculating fain travel time
17
Weird Harold: 2003-07-09
Anubis, Fain DID have free use of the Ways, but Loial and Karldin spent most of the last three books arranging guards at the Waygates against Sahdowspawn using them -- that should have put a crimp in Fain's travel arrangements and mostly reduced him to conventional means of travel by the time of the events in Far Madding.
18
juitzhead: 2003-07-13
COT - In So Habor.
Perrin thinks to himself that So Harbor is "askew". Does this mean that the town is askew from reality?Perhaps touching TAR? I dont know but it seems possible.
Also, "the air beyond the walls looked too dim, as though a shading cloud hung over the town"
these two quotes would suggest that So Habor is perhaps not entirely in phase with the real world.
A long shot but i think two interesting quotes from Perrins POV.
19
imfunny81: 2003-07-13
A bubble of evil that keeps on giving for a full month seems very different from what previous bubbles of evil did.
A better reason for all these things happening in So Habor is presented at wotmania.com here:
http://www.wotmania.com/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=1007&Category=OnePower
I think that this theory is more likely true than either Fain's responsibility or 'bubbles of evil'... this is the step (or two) beyond bubbles of evil...
20
ranman38: 2003-07-23
Yep, seals are decaying, the world therefore is also decaying. BUT, So Harbor is too close to Shadar Logoth for me. I say Balwer wanted to see Fain!
21
silverwolf: 2003-08-13
This is just kind of a random comment, but myrdraal are described as "slightly out of phase with time and reality" (LoC, Semirhage's thoughts about SH and quoting Aginor). Also, myrdraal travel with shadows (dim light...). The two probably aren't related, but I thought I would throw that out there. Make of it what you will; I'm too tired to think about it.
22
Fade: 2003-08-14
weird harold called this "mass hallucination" caused by a bubble of evil. did perrin and his associates hallucinate the weevils which they had to sift out of the grain they bought? or did the rebel AS hallucinate the rotting meat which a Keeping ward should have kept fresh? my last reply was on the path that fain did this, but i dont think so anymore, i believe that this is something more sinister than fain. perhaps the DO's next way of messing with the world. he tried keeping the world in winter, then summer, so maybe now he is trying decay.
23
Oatman: 2004-03-04
I seem to remember reading somewhere they fain can step outside of the pattern, but i forget the direct quote, which means he could travel almost anywhere instantaniously, and as for the ghosts, when rand fought fain in far madding, he summoned an image of the two dead rebel ashaman walking into the room to distract rand while fain killed him. the ghosts could be a similar thing to this, as i dont remember it being mentioned that ghosts where seen at more than one place at a time, i will assume they are fains camoflage in the city, to avoid notice while it is corrupted.
24
Callandor: 2004-03-06
** I seem to remember reading somewhere they fain can step outside of the pattern, but i forget the direct quote, which means he could travel almost anywhere instantaniously**
No, that was Moridin using the TP.
25
Turandil: 2004-04-15
What about that village Ingtar, Mat and co were following Fain trough? I remember some real strange things happened there. Like Mat opening a door in the empty town and saw a family eating, and when closing the door and opening again the exact same scene took place. Dont remember all to well, but have there been any real explaination about what took place in that village? Can those "ghosts" (the family) have any connection with the ghosts in So Habor or those ghost Mat encountered when he Tuon and her maid were going to bye silk? And why did only Mat see those ghosts?
26
Stilicho: 2004-08-17
I admit that So Habor puzzles me. When I first read COT I suspected Fain, but upon reflection (and reading these posts)I don't hink so anymore. The "half-remembered" part with Perrin makes me wonder if he's recalling the Blight from EOTW. Do we know how the Blight got started and what sustains it? Could So Habor be an indication (as suggested above) that the Do is beginning to touch the world directly with the seals weakening so rapidly? It seems logical to me but I don't know enough about how the Blight works to establish a clear connection.
27
Aelfinn: 2004-08-17
** What about that village Ingtar, Mat and co were following Fain trough? I remember some real strange things happened there. Like Mat opening a door in the empty town and saw a family eating, and when closing the door and opening again the exact same scene took place. Dont remember all to well, but have there been any real explaination about what took place in that village?**
No explanation was given. I thought that was Rand, but it doesn't matter.
28
Callandor: 2004-08-17
**Do we know how the Blight got started and what sustains it?**
RJ said:
**Tell us about the blight: Blight: you can not enter it from TAR because it is apart from NORMAL UNIVERSE and can not be touched. The Blight is not part of the normal universe. Ask about the Blight. If it is not reflected in T'A'R, why does the GLotD have so much power over T'A'R, the Wheel and reincarnation? see above.**
*** What about that village Ingtar, Mat and co were following Fain trough? I remember some real strange things happened there. Like Mat opening a door in the empty town and saw a family eating, and when closing the door and opening again the exact same scene took place. Dont remember all to well, but have there been any real explaination about what took place in that village?**
No explanation was given. I thought that was Rand, but it doesn't matter.***
It was Rand.
**TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 10 - The Hunt Begins
Suddenly he was tearing at . . . something. He did not know what, or how. Cobwebs made of steel. Moonbeams carved from stone. They crumbled at his touch, but he knew he had not touched anything. They shriveled and melted with the heat that surged through him, heat like a forge fire, heat like the world burning, heat like-**
Rand, who at this time was trying to stop cold turkey from channeling saidin, is being tailed by Lanfear. Lanfear later of course tells him to basically be in the Void constantly. Why? She knows he is a wilder; more time in the Void, channeling is inevitable, and then he needs a teacher which she can supply to bind him right to her.
What happened was she spun a web (that's what the "cobwebs" were ;)) to give Rand an illusion. Rand entered the Void, and used saidin to destroy the weave (that's the "heat of a forge fire").
And there you have it.
29
snakes-n-foxes: 2004-08-18
My first impression when reading this part of the book was that the 'feelings' generated in So Harbour were very like those generated in SL.
There was there was the dead walking, and the passage where night was falling and everyone with Perrin suddenly wanted to get out of town.
Then there was the suspicion of everyone else by the people of So Harbour.
That all seemed akin to SL - even the dead walking (remeber Leah - the Aiel Maiden that Rand thought he saw again)
It doesn't seem an exact fit to me, but then, who knows the exact process by which Aridhol became Shadar Logoth.
So I do have a theory on this, but I'll leave it to the end to say it...
Now, as for whether or not Fain would be able to achieve such a thing...we really havent seen him 'infect' people instantly, but we have seen him infect people who have been with him for a long time (like the Children of the Light he had with him). In other words, he could achieve a town of suspicious people...if he had the time.
Another point is, no one really knows where Fain came from, only that he used to go to the Two Rivers as a trade route. What if, as said previously, he was indeed Balwer's contact in So Harbour ?
We have seen Fain create illusions (the two Ashaman)
We have seen fain bind Dark Friends to his will.
We have seen Fain take Myrrdraal.
In So Harbour, What if, by staying there a few weeks here and there(in between other events), he corrupted the people of So Harbour a bit at a time ? What if he bound all the darkfriends in So Harbour to his will. What if he killed some people, then created illusions of them walking ? What if, Fain then commanded the darkfriends in So Harbour to spread suspicion and distrust ?
What if...Fain was trying to create a new power base...or a new safe haven ?
