1
Tamyrlin: 2005-08-12
I like it, and I appreciate you putting time into citing your passages. However, I have some questions. Didn't everyone see the people walking out of the cards, "The table lay on its side, coins still spinning across the floor where lordlings and servants crouched among scattered cards. They gaped at Mat and his knives, those in his hands and those in the wall, with equally wide eyes. Estean snatched a silver pitcher that had somehow escaped being overturned and began pouring wine down his throat, the excess spilling over his chin and down his chest." It isn't definitive that everyone saw what Mat saw. I don't have the books handy so I can't get the full passages to see if we are told for sure the men saw what Mat experienced. I think the bubbles of evil are a good possibility for individuals seeing ghosts, especially since they are semi-isolated experiences. Maybe evil events attract these bubbles of evil too, as in, as they grow larger, etc, they also are attracted to evil, such as the mysterious occurrence surrounding the disappearance of the man's wife in So Habor.
2
Anubis: 2005-08-12
IIRC Mat saw the cards, and believes everyone else did. It is possible that others did not see them, but i find it fairly unlikely. RJ tends to stick in reality and not go THAT much into ... forgot the word. Where beliefs are realities only to the individual. I would sound ten times smarter if i could remember the word. *bribes tam to edit*
3
NargsBrood: 2005-08-12
I believe Berlain saw Rand's reflections when she went to seduce him. Faile saw the axe trying to kill Perrin. However, Mat is the only one who saw the cards come to life. He was very confused that they had no idea what he was talking about. All they saw was the cards flying and him pegging them to the wall with his hidden daggers. They thought he was a loon.
4
Callandor: 2005-08-13
**People start walking straight into him that only he could see and not Tuon or Selucia could see.**
Just to point out, the phrasing might be taken that they had physical contact with Mat, which the ghosts did not (but I don't think that is what you meant anyway :)).
**Now here's my theory. I believe that So Habor became a some sort of focus point for the bubbles of evil because there are two ta'veren in the area. And now the bubbles of evil are coming out so strong that it's not only reaching Perrin and Mat, but also certain other towns in which their ta'veren-ness is affecting the most. Thereby resulting in the alleged ghost sitings at So Habor.**
So, So Habor is unrelated to the other ghost sightings around Randland? Both in Caemlyn, and Cairhien.
** It isn't definitive that everyone saw what Mat saw. I don't have the books handy so I can't get the full passages to see if we are told for sure the men saw what Mat experienced.**
I don't think the nobles Mat were with saw the cards acting strange (cause one says that it's no reason to get mad if he didn't have the cards ;), but Estean's reaction (getting realllly drunk) does support him seeing them), however, Faile clearly sees the problem with the axe along with Perrin, and Berelain is with Rand the entire time and scared out of her wits, and her reaction is what first makes Rand see the reflections stepping out to fight him.
5
Kantuna: 2005-08-13
I think that everyone else saw the cards come alive, but bear in mind that they only tried to kill Mat. If it wasn't Mat's fear, and Mat's Ta'veren drawing the bubble of evil to them, surely the cards would have gone for the others as well?
"I believe that So Habor became a some sort of focus point for the bubbles of evil because there are two ta'veren in the area."
I think you are right about everything apart from this passage. Remember that about half of the seals have been broken and the DO has more power now. That makes the bubbles of evil escaping from the prison more powerful, and more likely to latch onto less powerful threads (lives which aren't ta'veren.) I think that either so'habor was just unlucky, or that the bubbles were going for Mat and Perrin but "Missed".
6
IshaSamMoridin: 2005-08-13
in case you hadn't noticed, both rand and perrin's 'experiences' were visible to other's as well. Rand's to Berelain and Perrin's to Faile. the only ones that we know of so far that were NOT visible to everyone around were the ones involving mat and the hordes of people. personally, i think that the So Habor sightings are caused by the weakening of the seals, but not by the bubbles of evil. Same cause different method. I also think that mat's crowds fall under this category, too.
7
Garayur: 2005-08-13
*“You saw it, too.” Mat slipped the knives back into their sheaths. A thin trickle of blood ran down the back of his hand from the tiny wound. “Don't pretend you went blind!”
“I saw nothing,” Reimon said woodenly. “Nothing!” He began crawling across the floor, gathering up gold and silver, concentrating on the coins as if they were the most important thing in the world. The others were doing the same, except Estean, who scrambled about checking the fallen pitchers for any that still held wine. One of the servants had his face hidden in his hands; the other, eyes closed, was apparently praying in a low, breathless whine.
With a muttered oath, Mat strode to where his knives pinned the three cards to the panel. They were only playing cards again, just stiff paper with the clear lacquer cracked. But the figure of the Amyrlin still held a dagger instead of a flame. He tasted blood and realized he was sucking the cut in the back of his hand.*
There's the quote it appears that they saw it to. eithr way faile and berelain saw the other two events, plus there is the occaisional occurance of fog. I like your idea about the fear, as to nobody else seeing the gohsts, most likely they are alone at the time. Also, it is possible that tuon hadn't noticed, she may have been outside of the effect area. or maybe there are differant types of affects from the bubles. perhaps that particular variety, while affecting a large area, affects the the people on an idividual basis.
8
Davian93: 2005-08-13
****However, Mat is the only one who saw the cards come to life. He was very confused that they had no idea what he was talking about. All they saw was the cards flying and him pegging them to the wall with his hidden daggers. They thought he was a loon. ****
No, they saw what he did, they just didnt want to admit to seeing anything.
9
JakOShadows: 2005-08-14
I just wanted to clarify a few things that you asked. I do see now from all the other reactions that they saw something. What I meant to convey though is that they did not want to believe it. Whereas everyone else it happened to that night believed, they just tried to ignore it as his foolish fancy. The only person it really seemed to strike home hard and personally was Mat. As with the other guys.
And as the weakening of the seals and the bubbles of evil. I always though that as the seals weakened the bubbles of evil were released. Since the seals are getting weaker more will be released.
And as to So Habor. It just seems to me that there is a great proponderence there in So Habor, as compare to the other places. I wasn't saying that this wasn't the cause other places too. I just wanted to point out the connection. It might happen this way in other places, but we don't have the same type of circumstantial evidence to prove. But I could look into it for you if you would like.
10
mako0424: 2005-08-14
I first of all just want to say that i don't think the bubbles of evil are playing off fears, the first three attacks on the "Tripod" are meant to by symbolic, but not indicative of the bubbles latching onto fears and making them reality.
While SoHabor, i think is kind of like bubbles of evil but not really. The bubbles of evil, which are exactly that "evil" don't appear similar enough to the ghost occurences. Like when Rand and Mat are in Rhuidean, what does "dust devils" have anything to do with playing off fears, or the mashadar like fog over Haddon Mirk, i think the bubbles attach to ta'veren but cause evil things, while the ghosts in So Habor, are un-ta'veren related before the ta'veren show up, the ghosts also in no way seem evil or dark, just merely temporily out-of-place.
The mention of Lord Crwoly's wife is funny, but in no way was anyone else's ghost sightings playing off fears or anything, because Seonid also saw the same ghost that Gallene or whoever that soldier was drinking alot.
Also don't forget about the ghost sightin in Caemlyn when the silly serving girl sees the dead grandmother who was famous for her tempter, but Elayne is the only one around. No ta'veren close, i think the ghost sightings are just weakened seals of the pattern.
And one last thing, i thought when Mat sees the crowd bustling around Tuon and Selucia and hes dodgiong we know he kis the only one that sees, because Tuon asks if hes practicing a dance. But i didnt take this to be ghosts i thought this was a very strong, place-orientated memory, when Mat says like hes been on that bustling road before, seeing things from one of his past lives or inputted memories. i thought he even said as much, but im not positive, and dont have time to check.
11
JakOShadows: 2005-08-14
mako: I wasn't saying that all of the bubble of evil had to do with ta'veren. I was just pointing out that there was a concentration. I was just pointing out the focal point of So Habor to make a connection with the characters who are ta'veren. There could still be happenings like this other places because the seals are weakening, I was just saying that there will be an increase around ta'veren. And when I say fears, I don't always mean complete mortal fears. In So Habor, when the soldier and the aes sedai see a ghost, they are afraid of what's happening to the villagers. Wouldn't that be ghost? The three main characters just have a lot more to fear in my mind. And I'll look into that situation with Mat. I don't recall it, but you might be right.
12
Traveller: 2005-08-20
I know this sounds strange, but I think the ghosts are a bit too harmless to be Bubbles of Evil. In my mind Bubbles do evil things like try and kill people, not just peacefully float around.
I think that there is a chance that it might possibly be something todo with Travelling (maybe just for men.) When they "rip" a hole in the pattern, I have always thought that this would mess things up, so maybe they are messing up the pattern somehow.
Another thing I thought is that it is like the Mirrorworlds are somehow merging:
Mat sees people walking around who might have been there if something different had happened in the past, annd the Lord sees his wife as if she hadn't died. I know it sounds really wierd, but the mirrorworlds have to come into the books again, so what about that, huh? Miorrorworlds merging with Randland? No?
13
Callandor: 2005-08-21
**I think that there is a chance that it might possibly be something todo with Travelling (maybe just for men.) When they "rip" a hole in the pattern, I have always thought that this would mess things up, so maybe they are messing up the pattern somehow.**
Kinda strange then that there was Travelling througout the Age of Legends, and only the Dark One free from the Collapse to the Breaking, and even then there don't seem to be any references to the dead walking. So, why would Travelling be doing this now, not back then?
14
brother of Battles: 2005-08-22
I think the everyone saw what was happening to the playing cards. But remember, they are Tearins so they will ignore anything they think has to do with the one power. And playing cards comeing to life deffinetly has something to do with the power according to them. Plus, they are nobles. They will ignore anything they don't want to see.
15
udernation: 2005-08-23
My favourite idea here is Travellers "mirrorworld" idea...but I think a little more evidence is needed for it. It always struck me as strange, as (as anubis said) RJ tends to stick to the real, and ghosts are somewhat out of character. There are a few thoughts, although not backed up, that have occured to me.
Perhaps this is an after effect of the transmigrations that have been happening recently. There's been no evidence until (what, a year ago?) of transmigration, and then ghosts appear. Is there any info about how long ago the deaths occured (spec. Lord Cowlin)?
Also, someone (sorry for not crediting, but it sounds like a dbf theory) suggested that theres somewhere where normal souls go, ones that aren't heroes of the horn. If there isn't any room there, or if DO is doing something funky to it in order to transmigrate...
...mmm perhaps i should think a little more about this...
16
Callandor: 2005-08-23
**Perhaps this is an after effect of the transmigrations that have been happening recently. There's been no evidence until (what, a year ago?) of transmigration, and then ghosts appear. Is there any info about how long ago the deaths occured (spec. Lord Cowlin)?**
Maringil died in Lord of Chaos by Colavaere's command, Lady Nelein was "long deceased," Lord Cowlin's wife died apparently not to long ago, the rest of So Habor is unknown, and the ghosts Mat sees are just as unknown.
**Also, someone (sorry for not crediting, but it sounds like a dbf theory) suggested that theres somewhere where normal souls go, ones that aren't heroes of the horn. If there isn't any room there, or if DO is doing something funky to it in order to transmigrate...**
RJ has said that there is a normal afterlife (seperate from Heroes of the Horn). Whether transmigration has any effect on it is unlikely, but can't be ruled out.
17
Anubis: 2005-08-24
The Ghosts seem to be a new and unique thing, which leaves me with three possibilties.
1. The Dark One did it. Sure blame the bad guy :P
2. It was the side affect of... something. Blowing the Horn, who knows?
3. It is one of the things that are unique to this new age. Maybe in some ages ghosts are fairly commmon. LAME.
18
JakOShadows: 2005-08-24
undernation: I do think your idea of the souls being from transmigrated bodies is possible. The only thing that does seem to agree with that idea is that there seem to be so many ghosts around Randland. And as to the asha'man traveling as a cause of ghost, I do think somebody would know about or have an explanation. Because they used travelling in the AoL so it would be problematic back then too. But it might be that the DO was messing around with souls when he transmigrated bodies and similar things. And as to the ghosts being harmless, I think in So Habor, there was a lot of evidence that they were afraid of them. The description says that it looks like they didn't bathe and that they looked scared to do anuthing. That's what led me to believe that there are bubbles of evil there. Why would someone be afraid of a ghost that doesn't hurt you? If you can come up with a good explanation for them being afraid, it might make more sense.
19
udernation: 2005-09-05
*** Why would someone be afraid of a ghost that doesn't hurt you? If you can come up with a good explanation for them being afraid, it might make more sense.
Well, the fact that dead people are walking around is scary. Especially in the case of Cowlin where said dead person may be able to shed light on her untimely demise.
Would you not be scared if someone you knew who'd been dead suddenly turned up, in ghost form?
And, in addition, there have been Aiel running around butchering, and rumours of war from Seanchan, and also the dragonsworn about...plenty f reasons to be scared apart from the ghosts attacking you.
20
lurk: 2005-09-06
I was wondering, are the ghost sightings related to specific persons traveling there or channeling specific weaves. I thougth to remember that Fain had been in so harbor, (I'm nogt sure though, don't have the books) And Fain has the soul of Mordeth in him. Is there any mentioning of aridhol in its final degrading state connecting it to their fear (everybody in ardihol became a paranoid being) or something.
Has anyone checked the timeline of the sightings of the ghosts and put it next to activities in the books?
21
Callandor: 2005-09-07
**I thougth to remember that Fain had been in so harbor, (I'm nogt sure though, don't have the books) And Fain has the soul of Mordeth in him.**
As far as we know, Mordeth has not been to So Habor. Furthermore, he really has no reasoning to, since his main goal is to cause as much harm to Rand as he can -- "building a new Shadar Logoth" isn't high on his list of things to do ;)
**Has anyone checked the timeline of the sightings of the ghosts and put it next to activities in the books?**
The biggest event most put it with is the Cleansing, since it seems they all started after the Cleansing was finished. However, So Habor might break this, since I do not know if people truely stated when they began to appear (might have -- I'll double check later).
Other than that, there really aren't any big events that would signal their appearances -- especially in 3 distinct and seperate countries.
22
Traveller: 2005-09-07
Okay, so the whole Travelling ripping a hole in the pattern is lame, but it must cause some effect even if it is not related to the ghosts.
The Mirrorworlds thing really doesn't have any evidence to back it (yet) but I do think that it is possible, and fits with that thing Jordan has written for Knife of Dreams: "...reality itself has become unstable."
I also think that it explains the ghosts better than bubbles of evil and other suggestions.
23
Callandor: 2005-09-08
**Okay, so the whole Travelling ripping a hole in the pattern is lame, but it must cause some effect even if it is not related to the ghosts.**
But Travelling does NOT rip a hole in the Pattern, unless you mean True Power travelling. There are gaps between threads of the Pattern. There already are "holes" in it, and these are what are utilized.
24
brother of Battles: 2005-09-08
Callandor-
**Has anyone checked the timeline of the sightings of the ghosts and put it next to activities in the books?**
"The biggest event most put it with is the Cleansing, since it seems they all started after the Cleansing was finished. However, So Habor might break this, since I do not know if people truely stated when they began to appear (might have -- I'll double check later)."
That simply is not true. When Elayne was visiting House Matherin to gain weight for the crown she sent a wide-eyed maid named Elsie to fetch some men to carry down her chests. But once Elsie left the room she saw the Lady Nelein.
"'What is it Elsie? And don't tell me it was nothing. You look as if you'd seen a ghost.'
The girl flinched. 'I did,' she said unsteadily. That she gave Elayne no title showed just how unsteady she was. 'Lady nelein, as was Lord Aedmun's gradmother. She died when I was little, but I remember even Lord Aedmun tiptoed around her temper, and the maids used to jump if she looked at them, and other ladies who visited too, and the lords, as well. Everybody was afraid of her. She was right there in front of me, and she scowled so furious-' She broke off, blushing, when Elayne laughed." CoT pg 317 paperback.
All this happen after Perrin heard of So Habor, but had not actually been there. And the cleansing, or beacon as Elayne called it, didn't start up until she was already down stairs getting ready to leave House Matherin.
In fact, unless I am really off, that was the first actual sighting of a ghost. And it took place before the cleansing occured, as I stated already.
So you see, So Habor is not the only place the ghosts are, and it might not even be the first place since this ghost was seen before the cleansing.
25
Traveller: 2005-09-08
Yeah, but its the way its described- surely there must be some point to the male channelers describing it as ripping a hole in the pattern. I mean, it just sounds dangerous!
26
JakOShadows: 2005-09-08
Traveller: I do think it is highly possible the mirror worlds could be merging to to the main. If you look at So Habor, the mayor sees his wife who died. And another way to look at it would be that his wife was drawn from the mirror world, and she was connected to his soul somehow, so she was drawn to So Habor where he was. That could account for the people knowing them, but to me it doesn't seem to be a natural thing because they are mortally afraid to do anything in that town. I still think it is of the DO's doing or a bad side effect to something, not something that would be forseen by the creater as a natural occurence.
27
silverwolf: 2005-09-11
I don't think this is due to a bubble of evil, simply because the ghosts do not appear agressive, or even truly aware of their situation (excepting the maid in Andor who said the ghost was scowling fiercely at her, which might have simply been the woman's normal expression). Since they don't appear particularly harmful, every bubble of evil we have seen has resulted in injury and/or death and has had a limited timespan (not weeks or even days), I don't see the connection.
I do, however, think that the appearance of the ghosts is related to the weakness of the seals and the immenince of the DO breaking free, whether or not he is directly causing it. As you recall, myrdraal are "slightly out of phase with time and reality," similar to the ghosts. Fain has the ability to create illusions, something else that could be described this way. Reality, according to the Forsaken, was "as clay in the Dark One's hands" around Shayol Ghul. Lastly, the DO is described as chaos, the antithesis of order (don't have exact quote, but the meaning is there). Put all together, as the DO gains in influence and "proximity" (not physical proximity, as the bore has no physical location, but more a reference to the world coming farther into his sphere of influence), it is only logical that a certain breakdown of order and proliferation of chaos would ensue.
I think that the ghosts are part of another plane of existence--similar to the mirror worlds, but not truely physical. This plane would be close to the plane of the "real" world--some traffic flows between the two as people die and are reborn. As the DO's influence increases, the boundaries between these two planes weaken...grow less distinct. The end result is a partial planar overlay--the two planes coexist in the same physical location, allowing a greater than normal degree of interaction. So Habor is simply one of the places that the overlay is most observable, and Andor and Cairhien are mere brushes of the realities against each other.
The concepts behind this are...abstract...at best, but I think it's the best explanation of the events.
28
Callandor: 2005-09-15
**So you see, So Habor is not the only place the ghosts are, and it might not even be the first place since this ghost was seen before the cleansing.**
If you notice, I do not propose that the Cleansing is the source of the ghosts; just an event which most people ascribe it to due to being close in timing.
**Yeah, but its the way its described- surely there must be some point to the male channelers describing it as ripping a hole in the pattern. I mean, it just sounds dangerous!**
Boring a hole; not ripping. True Power Traveling is described that way. And, remember, there are spaces between the threads of the Pattern, so if you think about it they're not boring through anything.
29
JakOShadows: 2005-09-15
Silverwolf:
I do think it is very possible for your idea to be correct as well. From all the hints I've heard about the next book, your idea also fits the pattern as well. But I haven't seen any evidence to suggest it at all except for hints at future happenings in the book. Whereas I tried to base my theory on stuff that has already happened. I'm not going to say yours is not possible, just that I think we both took a different approach to the problem. You went more of a metaphysical explanation and I went with a more practical explanation. And also, as the seals weaken, it could be possible that more bubbles of evil will pop up too. But I have to admit there are a lot of ghosts that don't exactly fit my model.
30
silverwolf: 2005-09-16
The ways of travelling--especially the male way--bear a strong resemblence to the theory of space-folding; given RJ's physics background, I doubt that he would mix that in with the ghosts, or any other dire consequences, for that matter. The "ripping a hole" terminology refers to Moridin using the TP to travel, not to most men's travelling. Boring a hole is simply bringing the distance between the two points to a near-zero amount; the woman's method, creating a "similarity" between the two places, does the exact same thing, only with a different mindset--by creating a single point at which the places being traveled to and from are identical.
Sorry if this doesn't make sense--I'm tired and probably rambling.
