Tamyrlin: 2003-08-11

I like this idea. Most people assume that Logain will take over a kingdom, or that he will become the next Tamyrlin, and that his glory will be independent of what Rand does. But, maybe Logain will lead the Black Tower, after Rand has gone, and he will be remembered as the Dragon Reborn...very ironic. Great thought.

SDog: 2003-08-11

Just to be clear, the vision Min had was of glory and power to come, not "glory above all others."

But when you combine this viewing and Egwene's dream of Logain stepping over the body of Rand, this theory does start to make sense.

****CoT Spoiler*****





Further irony would be the fact that Logain doesn't believe Rand could have cleansed saidin. He believes the Creator must have taken a hand. It would be ironic if Logain were remembered as the one who defeated the Shadow...and wasn't. Especially if he embraced this.

Callandor: 2003-08-11

I never liked this idea. How would people confuse the two? I think Thom was refering more to what Rand remembered in TGH:

**TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 47 - The Grave Is No Bar to My Call

Rogosh Eagle-eye, a fatherly looking man with white hair and eyes so sharp as to make his name merely a hint. Gaidal Cain, a swarthy man with the hilts of his two swords sticking above his broad shoulders. Golden-haired Birgitte, with her gleaming silver bow and quiver bristling with silver arrows. More. He knew their faces, knew their names. But he heard a hundred names when he looked at each face, some so different he did not recognize them as names at all, though he knew they were. Michael instead of Mikel. Patrick instead of Paedrig. Oscar instead of Otarin.**

Rand al'Thor might turn into Randy Talor :P.

But also remember that in a people like Seanchan, still remember the name of their leader 1000 years later.

WinespringBrother: 2003-08-11

Interesting theory, but I'm not sure how well it will work. Lots of legends may be distorted in the WOT world such as Souran/Ishara, but this is the Dragon Reborn here. First of all, many many people know Rand's name, and that he is the Dragon Reborn. And while the Randland histories are missing a lot of information, they are spot on regarding the important names like Lews Therin, Artur Hawkwing and Guaire Amalasan. So maybe Logain will steal some of his glory, but I doubt he will be remembered as the Dragon Reborn. And I doubt that Logain's past as a false Dragon will be forgotten also.

Rhodric: 2003-08-11

with the viewing (dream?) of logain stepping over the black box and rand, i think this adds weight to you theory.

Rand fakes his own death (maybe, or just dies) and Logain takes credit for defeating the DO. there's your wossname, glory.

Friar: 2003-08-12

Not a bad idea, I like the flow of thought. Personally, I believe that Logain will unite/save the male channelers and go against the Taim/new dreadlords faction. Then as his next step will be to lead the new version of the male and female Aes Sedai (united) with him as the "Father". (confrontations with "Mother/Egwene will be intresting). This was preposed by Predictor: way back in 2000. (see the predictions section). The reference to Thom is that the events over the course of time will be distorted. Just look at what we know/don't know about the Egyptian and Chinese empires, beliefs and gods and were they really the acts of those people/super beings, associated with them.

juitzhead: 2003-08-12

RJ stated that the way the stories are put in the books, is a hint to the readers as to the way things are in the book. The stories told in the future are "twisted and woven together in a way no one who was at the events would recognize."

People are remember and some are forgotten. I suggest you listen to the Dragomount Audio File No 11 of the new interview.

it is also possible that Rand will want to be forgotten.

However, it is not stated when his glory will come. In two other ages when events are not even rememebered except through legend. Or during this or the next age, when everyone remembers Rand al Thor and the glory doesnt come from tellings of the story.

It could be that Logain helps Rand in the LB, but everyone only remembers Logain.

rubbernilly: 2003-08-13

Unless it was "power" AND "glory."

Glory is something that can be heaped on him later.

Power, on the other hand, makes no sense as a two-Age down-the-line type distortion of the story. Either he has power while he lives, or he doesn't.

Thinking him (incorrectly) powerful does not make him more powerful, while thinking him (incorrectly) glorious does tend to make him more so.

Am I making sense?

If power was part of the viewing, then that has to come during his life, IMO.

Flinn: 2003-08-13

Remember what happened to LTT? He was the greatest thing since sliced bread in the AoL, but now he's as hated as the forsaken.

Harry: 2003-08-21

I like these types of theories because I think this is where a lot of the "meat" in theories remains in WOT.

I feel that the glory in this case is not going to be a good/clean glory. I just have a feeling Logain is going to learn something that is going to convince him to go for glory at all costs.

I like your theory because it could lead to Logain deliberately taking the glory from Rand. This melds in to my feeling of a tainted type of glory.

My personal guess (I have no proof to back this up as a theory - so I have not tried to post it as one, but I have used the great Predictions Section of this site) is that the Power and Glory Logain gains may be on the Forsaken side. I feel that Logain, Taim and others will have to convert to the dark one's side after the LB. The wheel keeps turning and we currently have Rahvin, Sammael and Amosdean who have been balefired and cannot return. I think this leaves a massive number deficiency for the next battle with the next dragon during the next wheel turn.

I know most will disagree because I have absolutely no proof, but I am sceptical about Logain's character direction and ultimate intentions.

Anubis: 2003-09-01

i think that logains glory will be as the leader of aes sedai, or meybe just the asha man. i think that his glory will be more in leading the channelers back into the mainstream. eliminating the hatred and fear.

mako0424: 2003-12-08

Logain's glory will come from destroying Taim when he rises as being dark, and he will be the new valiant leader of the Black Tower, and than when Rand fakes his own death for some reason, Logain will replace him as a temporary dragon, both logain and rand having already agreed to this, Logain will achieve artificial and real glory through honor and good deeds, but this wll require he steps over Rand to do.

Khaos: 2004-01-20

Perhaps Logain's glory to come is based upon more than one age. What I suggest is that Min's viewing is an indication that Logain will be the the next hero bound to the horn and spat out by the wheel when he is needed.

Rand being LTT is already bound in this way.

Fatum Turbatus: 2004-05-03

I believe that Logain's glory will be that he will be the one to lead the Black Tower once Rand has fought, and died in, the Last Battle. He will become the new M'Hael after Rand pulls Mazrim Taim from power.

My evidence for this is the fact that when Logain showed up to see Rand in CoT, he was there to try and convince Rand that there were problems in the Black Tower. He wanted Rand to go to the Tower and deal with the problems, which would, more than likely, result in the removal of Mazrim Taim from power.

As for Logain becoming the new M'Hael, there is more evidence supporting this theory. Before Logain spoke to Rand, Min told him that the viewing of his glory was stronger than ever.

----------

"Logain's aura still speaks of glory, stronger than ever" - Min, CoT, Chapter 24

----------

The combination of Min speaking of his aura being stronger now than it use to be, and the fact that he came to inform Rand of the Mazrim Taim and the Black Tower's problems draws only one conclusion in my mind - his glory will be with the Black Tower and the Asha'man.

FerDeLance: 2004-05-03

Logain's glory refers to the last battle.

I reckon the prophecy about Rand's blood being spilt on the black rocks of Shayol Ghul is connected to Egwene's dream about Logain stepping over Rand whilst smiling. Im sure that there is something about a black rock mentioned then as well.

Logain's going to finish the job and get all the glory!

hobo: 2004-05-27

Flinn brought up a good point about Lews Therin. He was the Fearless Leader during the war against the Shadow, but after the Breaking he became a hated figure, the one who broke the world. Maybe this will happen again. Histories of the next age could portray Rand as a chaotic figure, who broke the Aiel and brought chaos to the world. Logain could (undeservedly) be credited with the good things that Rand did: cleansing saidin, holding Tairen lords accountable for their crimes, and defeating the Dark One. Look at what happened with John F. Kennedy and Lyndon B. Johnson. Kennedy is credited as being the "good" president who stood for civil rights, Johnson is the "bad" president who dragged America into Vietnam. In reality it was more complicated. Much of the credit that JFK receives for civil rights should go to LBJ, and American involvement in Vietnam was already underway even during Kennedy's presidency. This might be the same for Rand and Logain.

Flinn Sedai: 2004-05-28

We already know that Rand will be revered in the next Age. In the books (before and after) there are poems written about how great the Dragon Reborn was, and how he saved humanity. All of the ones dated from the 4th Age are from the Age after this one. Sorry, but the idea that Rand will be hated simply doesnt work.

lord Mordeth: 2004-05-30

The *Dragon Reborn* will be remembered in the next Age - there's no mention of Rand al'Thor in those quotations, however. I'm not sure where I stand on this: I wouldn't like it to go down that way but it would certainly fit the RJ focus on myth and Chinese whispers in general.

Korell: 2005-06-07

I know i am digging up an old thread but wanted to get somthing out there

it looks like it has pretty well been covered through every spectrum. My thought was that Loagain will help unite the Black and White Towers. He may or may not be Tam but i think this will be one thing he is known for however i do think he will Aid Rand in the last battle.

Gaidal: 2005-10-05

Here's an idea for his gLory after reading the "Grey Power" thread. We all know Fain despises both Rand and the DO. I can see him pouncing on the winner of TG (ie Rand) while he is weakened. This seems like the kind of person Fain is. He kills Rand with the SL dagger, fulfilling one of Rand's "deaths" and then Logain blasts him into oblivion with balefire ^^. Lemme know what you think.

Anubis: 2005-10-05

Logain is quickly becoming Rand's right hand man. Rand is going to become revered, per 4th age writings. Logain would naturally recieve some reflected glory, as well as the fact that he will probably outlive Rand.

snakes-n-foxes: 2005-10-06

When Rand 'dies'...whether his death is faked or real...there will be a power vacuum.

In a power vacuum there is always death, unless a strong leader stands up to take command.

If I remember right, one of Egwene's dreams said something about the servants balancing the guardians. So when that power vacuum is in the black tower, then the land has a serious problem. Furthering this problem is that fact that The Black Tower has not thought far beyond The Last Battle. They have no true structure, training, or purpose beyond TLB, and one will have to be found. They have no true sovereignity, yet they occupy sovereign soil. A decent percentage of them are no doubt suffering varying degrees of insanity. they have darkfriends amongst them (Taim favourites)...and all put aside until TLB - but what happens AFTER TLB - when their leader croaks it, kaput, when they have no purpose, when the lands could well turn against them, when the factions fight for leadership...

...that's where someone HAS to step in. And that someone is no doubt Logain.

Has anyone thought of what all those armies are going to do when TLB is done? And what about all those displaced peoples (the ones that are wondering around feeling lost because the dragon has broken all bonds).

What about The Seachan, who's truce with Rand ends when he dies? Will they take the lands that were his?

And the Children of the Light...they will be looking for a new home...maybe the Aiel too. What happens to the Shaido.

Basically it's highly likely that Chaos will rule when TLB is over and done.

When not just a country, but a whole continent is in absolute chaos...when armies, and peoples, are not under the control of any one or two kings/queens etc...negotiations are unlikely to work...and negotiations are really the only thing Aes Sedai can do. They can't force people, nor can they truly threaten people into submission.

It's likely that very few are going to witness what truly happens at SG. And just as likely that Logain will pick up the million pieces that are left over, forging great alliances, dispersing armies...organising the world.

It's 'possible' that the world will revile Rand...as all he has really done is turn the world upside down. It's possible that TG will become more associated with Logain for his legendary work in re-uniting the lands into a semblance of peace (which would actually require him to govern, or it would all fall to pieces again).

If you are familiar with John the Baptist, Rand may eventually become known as 'The one who comes before' (of course that makes 'He who follows after' problematic...because Jahar Narishma picked up Callandor)

I wonder what part Narishma has in all this, if any at all.

FraKcture: 2005-10-06

A great idea, Gaidal. Rand dies and is resurrected by balefire to complete his task and win TG. I'd be suprised if you are the first to suggest it, but that's the first time I've heard it.

JakOShadows: 2005-10-06

snake and foxes: I your explanation for this. I think the people would still have to credit Rand with tLB, because Logain doesn't seem like the type to take advantage of someone. It's possible, but it seems like he's made his peace now. But rather, like you said, people will blame Rand for the chaos and give glory to Logain for creating peace. But in all defense of Rand, I don't think there was any other way he could have handled things. In a way, Tear had to fall first because that is most symbolic of being the dragon reborn. If it had worked out like Moirane wanted it to, then people would still be thinking of him as a false dragon (even more than now). Then he also had to get a strong army underneath that was loyal to him out of free choice, and the only one was the Aeil. And then from there events were already set in place with things as they were at the time. The only I think he could have done a bit better is tried to use diplomacy, but as he says to Bashere at the end of tFoH, no one is exactly rolling out the welcome wagon. Even a year later, the only one who tried to remotely help or ally with him was the borderlands and the rebel aes sedai. So it isn't all his fault, as is true for LTT. I wonder if that pattern is repeated aga after age.

therobotbadger: 2005-10-06

I'm personally of the opinion that Logain's glory will manifest itself during TG and that Narishma will be the one to fill the Asha'man power vaccuum in the Fourth Age.

Callandor: 2005-10-07

**They have no true structure, training, or purpose beyond TLB, and one will have to be found.**

That's a bit misleading. They definately have the training, and they have structure in their ranks and location as the Black Tower. They do have somewhat of a purpose, but yes, they need to get a better refined one for post-Last Battle.

**Has anyone thought of what all those armies are going to do when TLB is done?**

Go back to worrying about their own problems, instead of world wide ones (if they even get that far).

**What about The Seachan, who's truce with Rand ends when he dies? Will they take the lands that were his?**

Nicola's same Foretelling gives what we know will happen (very general), "the land divided by the return." Obviously, the Seanchan are here to stay. Coupled with another prophecy about Rand that he shall tie the north to the east and the south to the west, can easily be seen to be happening with the lands under Rand's control (the "north" (Borderlands -- or at least possibly soon to be), and the "east" with Tear, Cairhien, and if you want to argue it you could say Andor and Illian as east), and the lands that the Seanchan control (Almoth Plain, Tarabon, Altara, Amadicia).

**And the Children of the Light...they will be looking for a new home...maybe the Aiel too. What happens to the Shaido.**

Knife of Dreams will almost assuredly resolve those two, and many more.

**Basically it's highly likely that Chaos will rule when TLB is over and done.**

It's not going to be all sunshine and singing, since there will continue to be conflict and battles.

**They can't force people, nor can they truly threaten people into submission.**

Well, it's silly to say Aes Sedai cannot force rulers -- since they've done that in some form for 3000 years ;)

snakes-n-foxes: 2005-10-08

Hi JackOShadows

Just had an odd thought...about John the Baptist and Rand and Logain...

What exactly do the Prophecies of the Dragon say about Rand...do they say the HE will defeat the Dark One ? ...I can't remember, I just remember the line "His blood stain the rocks of Shayol Ghoul, salvation for mankind" - or something similar to that.

What if Rands blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghoul is all a diversion for the person who really has to seal the bore ? That of course would mean that Rand isn't really the Jesus figure, but rather the JTB figure, heheh :P

Not that I really believe it, but it would be a real twist (though probably not a popular one)

Aragon21: 2010-03-29

From the epilogue of The Path of Daggers, I have an inkling that Logain may meet Tenobia's idea of the right kind of man. I do not off this idea to suggest that Logain will somehow usurp Perrin's eventual attainment of the Broken Crown, but rather that Logain will attain a Prince consort type ranking and thus his crown and glory.

Letsgomets: 2011-12-16

I have noticed something that I do not believe has been pointed out before, but it could be on another theory somewhere. It seems that everyone assumes that the following quote means that Logain will take over the Black Tower for Rand after Rand dies. I don't think that's exactly what the following quote really says:

"Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand's body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet.”

I believe that Taim will use Mask of Mirrors or other device to disguise himself as Rand and fulfill the original plan of sowing mass chaos as the Dragon Reborn in order to further the Shadow's plans to win TG. The main reason I believe this is that in Egwene's dream, it says HANDS crossed at his breast, when Rand only has one hand left. Not everyone in Randland knows he lost a hand in the confrontation with Semirhage, so Taim's disguise would still be convincing enough to make most people believe that the Dragon has already gone mad and is in the process of creating another Breaking. I submit instead that Logain's glory will be defeating Taim at the Black Tower and stepping over Taim's disguised body, as indicated by the paper puppet. The disguise would be eliminated by Taim's death and the mask will be off. Just a thought.

aoysgelt: 2011-12-24

It seems pretty obvious what Logain's "Morning Glory" is, all things considered.

Waxer: 2012-01-01

In SR Cha. 'Questioners' Egwene and Nynaeve are grilling Joiya 'He (M. Trim)will be proclaimed as the Dragon eborn. his name given as Rand al Thor, then he will be set to destruction on such a scale as the world has not seen since the War of the Hundred Years'. Think this is a early hint on some of the above.

ivanbrow10: 2012-01-12

I wonder if Logain will gain glory by leading the armies in the last battle with Matt and Perrin. As Rand travels to The Pit of Dhoom to fight to DO etc it's up to Logain to hold the line. Rand defeats the DO and reseals the bore (beginning a new age where the OP will eventually be forgotten and technology takes over) but Logain has held the Trollocs etc back and saved the cities of Rand Land. Without one the bad guys win - either won. They are both needed for the eventual victory. I do wonder then as time goes on who will be remembered more - Logain's victory will be a lot more public. But as technology takes over (I know the history will change by in A's visions of the future the Seanchan have guns) all this will become a story for kids. A myth. Before one day, many many years later, someone rediscovers the OP. And a new AoL begins. I do think Logain merely taking over the BT or even the Tamylrin feels too obvious. We know Taim will be defeated. So he's the obvious choice.

There is one other way to get 'glory' though that I don't think anyone has mentioned. What if he dies? And I don't mean in any way connected to Rand or taking Rand's place. Just a good old fashioned honourable death. You know, like Custer... ;) May feel anti-climactic.

My first idea is better!!! He holds the line against impossible odds, knowing he just needs to buy Rand time to re-seal the bore and defeat, for now, the DO. (Bit LOTR - battle in front of the Black Gate?)