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Home | Index | Archives | Help
hy the ability to channel is more rare
by Philosopher: 2004-01-20 | Not yet rated
Previous Categories: Philosophy and the Wheel of Time
First off, remember that souls are reborn into the world as the Wheel turns. Now, suppose that the ability to channel is a function of the soul - evidence for this is Halima, who channels saidin even though in a female body - because that soul was meant to channel saidin.
So here is the theory - less people have been able to channel since the breaking because those souls were being held back by the Creator, or the Pattern. Remember that some souls are reborn to fulfill a specific purpose in the pattern. What if channeler souls are like that, only usually smaller threads than Heroes of the Horn and such? So, the Pattern knows the Last Battle is coming, knows there is going to be lots of channelers needed in it, and holds them in reserve - like keeping money in the bank in the days before your bills are due. Then, as TG gets closer, it pays the bills - spits out a bunch of channeler souls all at once, hence the reason there is now such a surge of channelers in the books. It would hold back men even more than women, because saidin was tainted, so a man could do even less than a women - ie, if you have to use your money to handle emergencies, you want to use it effectively. This is why the number of men who can channel is even smaller than the number of women, until recent years. This explains also why there was a surge in false Dragons - yes, the pattern required one, but there was also more men with the ability inborn who could claim it.
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2004-01-30
I agree with part of your synopsis. The ability to channel is connected to the soul, but there is a component of the physical genes that also helps determine channeling. In other words, if two people can channel, and they have a child that is genetically disposed to channel, must the Pattern send that body a soul with the ability to channel? I think the Pattern does weave in specific people at specific times, but I think it has more to do with people not being found, than it has to do with actual people not being able to channel. Interesting topic, I am sure there will be some comments.
Mairashda: 2004-01-30
Finding lesse people who are able to channel is not due to the failure of the ability to manifest itself within the people: channelers are numerous among the seanchan ,among the aiel...and probably among the sharan (though their interbreeding channelers with channelers may do som,ething about those numbers- in both directions)...even the rebel aes sedai find numerous prospective novices on their way.
the reason why less and less channelers were found by the white tower cannot be the failure of the ability- it must be the failure of the towers strength, its ability to search the land, its will to get involved in something as substantial as maintaining its numbers.
... but the tower cannot be failing, now can it? so rather than face reality aes sedai rationalize that it must be the ability itself that is failing.
Unicorn: 2004-01-30
I like Tamyrlin partially agree. It could seem like the pattern has been sort of preparing for the last battle, by limiting the amount of channelers for a time, to make sure the channeler "soul-pool" is not depleted when it is time to spin out channelers. And like you I belive Halima is evidence that ability is a property of the soul(see below)
I have two but's, one as Tamyrlin implied there is something genetic, so the culling might still be valid, is it possible that one would need both the genenic property and the soul property combined in order to channel?
Tamyrlins second argument is, I think also valid. It seems to me that we are given a pretty big hint, as to how rigid the Tower has become in accepting females, apparently they did not actively search, or in any other way advertise that "we are looking for a few good women". Also in EotW we are told of three false dragons, Logain, Taim and "that poor fellow down in Tear", now the last one could not channel. The wheel spun out dragon wannabees, but not nessecarily channelers. Second "but" the Red apparantly never actively searched out men who could channel, and men never did try to channel if they could avoid it. We actually do not know if there are more male channelers than there used to be. I think that the variation in age of the "applicants" to the Black tower speaks in favor of this.
Ofcourse the pattern has a whole lot of threads, and may have been working on any number of them at the same time. So I don't truly have a stand on this yet
Stanzi: 2004-01-30
I'd have to disagree for the most part. I believe they were right when they said that the lack of channelers is due to most channelers not breeding. All the men are killed off, and the women mainly live as nuns. Genetics do play a role in Randland, even if the present peoples don't know it. The AoLs did, that's for sure, otherwise Aginor's field of study would have been null and void.
That's not to say, though, that the Pattern has spun out some heavy duties for the Last Battle. But by saying the Pattern can withhold all these souls for a purpose would make me think that the Pattern has some form of conciousness, which I do not believe.
Davian93: 2004-01-30
A couple of reasons why the Tower has less AS than in centuries past:
1. WT's reputation declined starting with Hawkwing and continuing to present day
2. Steady population decline and overall decline in civilization since the end of the War of a Hundred Years.
3. AS never recruit
4. Standards are extremely strict
5. A great majority of those who do go to WT never become WT
All of these are legitimate reasons, but I have to agree the pattern is capable of spinning out channelers at the times when it needs them. Now it seems like almost every new character we meet in the book can channel to some degree.
Although I disagree on the surge of false Dragons. I think that was more of the pattern demanding Rand to declare himself rather than an increase in the overall number of channelers. It also served as a warning to the world that TG was coming.
Callandor: 2004-01-30
You have to think of it in means of the Tower; they do not go actively searching for girls to train, they wait for girls to come to them.
Contrast that with the Asha'man policy: They go around to every town they can and call out "Who wants to help the Dragon?" and all the men who do are taken to the Black Tower and tested, those who pass are trained, those who aren't are put into the Legion of the Dragon. They actively search for channelers.
The Seanchan have the same policy: they go testing for damane for all the girls up till about 25-30 years old, once there, they aren't going to start to channel, and at the same time they search for sul'dam. So they grasp a lot of the possible female channelers.
But they do not get the percentage of the men. The second variable in this is the ability to learn in men dramatically reduces the number of known channelers to the world pre-Black Tower. They would never channel, and so no one knew a possible male channeler was in their vilage.
Now that the White Tower has woken up to the idea (some what) to asking for girls publically, and not just limiting the ages, their numbers will explode, and have been doing that. The same goes for the Asha'man, which has been their policy from the start.
The Fisher: 2004-01-30
I agree with Philosophy on most of the points. The Pattern may have been holding some souls in reserve. But I think the lack of searching on the part of the Tower mainly is responsible for the Tower's decline. Look at the Black Tower and how mainy men they have recruited by going out and actively searching. The books say that they nearly match the White Tower in numbers.
But I have another question. Where in the books does RJ even imply that channling is genetic? Never that I recall though I may be mistaken. I think much more likely that channling solely relies on the soul of the channler. I seem to remember th books saying that when choosing Aginor and Balthamel's new bodies he chose with a dark sense of humor but it says nothing about according to whether their bodies could channel. Anyway, as Philosophy says, Aran'gar can channel saidin in a female body. This seems to me to exclude the possibility of genetics playing a role. Just my opinion.
Davian93: 2004-01-30
I don't believe that RJ ever outright states that its genetic. He does, however, have the characters imply that it is genetic on several occasions. There is reference to the "mad White Ajah plan" to marry gentled men and have kids, so obviously some the the AS believe it to be genetic. There is Sheriam's belief that the Red Ajah is "culling the herd" by gentling every man they find. Also there are several cases among the sea folk where channeling followed family lines with the windfinders. There is also Morgase and Elayne. After that the other possible indications of any genetic link would be the ability to channel being linked to the "old blood" in the Two Rivers. Remember how surprised Verin and Alanna were to find so many girls capable of channeling in the Two Rivers. And then Taim went and found a large number of male channelers as well. The only town they didn't find any was Taren Ferry. Their explanation was that there was too much outside mixing of the bloodlines. So clearly, the AS believe that genetics are involved.
Anubis: 2004-01-31
it is implied when moirine is talking about how there are tonns of channelers in the two rivers because the old blood runs thick.
Unicorn: 2004-01-31
The Fisher said :
"Where in the books does RJ even imply that channling is genetic? Never that I recall though I may be mistaken. I think much more likely that channling solely relies on the soul of the channler"
I think the only implicatioin of this is in the "culling" theory set forth I believe by Sheriam early in the series. But I also think that if you are right, we can conclude that the soul has gender. If not then Halima would channel Saidar, my reasoning is if the soul has a channeler/non-channeler switch then the genetics would determine if the channeling was to be saidar ot saidin. I would still maintain as I have speculated earlier that the ability is determined as a combination of factors both spiritual and genetic. As to the vey existence of Halima, I believe the DO forced Aran'gar's soul into the body of Halima, creating a freak, maybe even doing some genetic manipulation himselfwe don't know if Halima has to shave her legs twice a day :-). I am aware that of all the rebirths we know the gender is allways the same, I have chosen to disregard that, because all we know of are "Heroes of the wheel" who has a specific mission to fulfill in their lifetime.
molec: 2004-01-31
I am more convinced now that channeling is likely completely dependent upon the soul. So...I wonder what happens when someone is severed. Is that soul forever severed? This alone would reduce the pool of potential channelers in the future (if there is a finite pool of possible souls).
In addition, this would imply that Nynaeve is able to sense (and repair) something about a persons soul. We all know that Verin was able to sense the lack of a soul within the Ogier in the stedding.
I think that Jordan might be misdirecting us with the genetic slant. It is likely that the soul might be the 'sole' determining factor for the ability to channel (pun intended).
Well done, Philosopher.
nowhere man: 2004-01-31
Every time the soul/genetics argument comes around, the soul people seem to fixate on Halima. Halima is an [i]exception[/i]. She was not born that way, and had someone else's brain forced into her head. We never got any real details on how the DO's reincarnation process works. I personally prefer the genetics theory, and if you need a concrete idea, how about this (and it's pure speculation):
Channeling is a function of some neural configuration. Thus it has definite genetic influences. Some people are born with the right pathways already there, while others' brains are close enough that a little training is enough to bring out the ability. Halima's body had its brain rewritten, so that explains her.
dragonsceptor: 2004-01-31
I would have to agree that the ability to channel is likely partly tied to the soul and partly tied to genetic. I also beleive that it is the white towers policies that the given them the PERCEPTION of less channelers. The existence of vast numbers of channelers in the Kin(1000+ if I remember right), the Aiel Wise Ones (The Shaido have 400+), and the windfinders (Not sure of the exact number but it does mention that they sent token girls to the WT so as not to arrouse suspicion. That tells me there are many more.) The pattern may be sending out more people with the ability to channel but I do not beleive it is a significantly larger percentage.
Oatman: 2004-01-31
The reason that thier were so many channelers found in the two rivers could have somthing to do with the combination Rand, Mat, Perrin Ta'veren twisting chance to provide them with enough adequately strong channelers for TG.
The reason for the varying strength may be that the soul depicts the ability to channel, but the genetics determine exactly how strongly they will be able to channel.
Callandor: 2004-02-01
**I am more convinced now that channeling is likely completely dependent upon the soul. So...I wonder what happens when someone is severed. Is that soul forever severed? This alone would reduce the pool of potential channelers in the future (if there is a finite pool of possible souls).**
It is AT LEAST somewhat based on genetics; there is no getting around that. This is very well proven since the Sea Folk have 4th generation channelers.
Great Lord of the Dark: 2004-02-01
What if it's not the pattern, but the Dark One who has been holding back 'channeler' souls? By holding the souls they are ineligible to re-enter the normal rebirth process, and by not stuffing them in bodies, they are eliminated from the Last Battle. The balance would of course be the pattern sneaking them in to lots of lost little places like the Two Rivers.
Don't bother Tam, I don't really believe this, just thought I'd amuse myself by posting it.
Dragonsworn: 2004-02-01
Im brand new to this sight but i found it because im a huge fan of these books. I thought maybe this would be a good theory to start out on. I personally like the other responces do not agree that the wheel is holding channnelers back. The reason more arent found is because 1)Aes Sedai do not know what they are doing. The Forsakedn make severel comments throughtout the books of how ignorant and inferior these Aes Sedai are and, them even consiedering themsleves Aes Sedai sickens the forsaken. I personally believe that all but a few Aes Sedai( Cadsuane, Moiraien, Suin, Lean, and Rands gf's) will do nothing to help Rand in Tarmon Gaidon, but actually hurt him in his attems to save the word(as seen time and time again), and also Aes Sedia are so arrogant that they wont beleive it even if somebody told thme that there were 1000s of channelers underthere noses the whole time. 2) in the main geographic setting channlers, even women are looked down opon, so so many hide or are reluctant to come forward that they channel. 3this is a small one but Sheriam in book 2 or 3 states that Aes Sedia have been hunting men so long the have basiaclly destroyed the gene that allows people to channel
ranman38: 2004-02-02
Aes Sedai very rarely have offspring and every man that demonstrates an inherent ability to channel is captured and stilled. It is simply a lack of breeding.
Davian93: 2004-02-02
Lack of breeding and culling the herd are good explanations of except for one minor problem. As soon as they started looking for channelers, they found hundreds if not thousands of men and women who were capable. As soon as the need was there, the channelers were available. So while the Reds may have culled the herd and every AS who doesn't have children may be weakening the overall gene pool, the pool is still full of possible channelers. Only a very small percentage of women capable of channeling make the journey to Tar Valon to become an AS. Only the very small percentage of men with the spark inborn are stilled by the Red Ajah. So even if you remove this say 10% of the population of possible channelers there are still plenty to choose from when they actually actively search. The Light will have plenty of channelers on its side during Tarmon Gaidon and unfortunately the Shadow will have plenty of dreadlords as well.
Damer: 2004-02-02
I agree with some of your points, but i dont agree that the pattern is holding back channelers because Moraine tells us that the pattern is neither good or evil, therefore it would not think that it needs a bunch of channelers to win the last battle.
Khaos: 2004-02-03
I think that channeling is mostly a genetic trait. However I don't believe that the White Tower has been culling the ability out of humanity.
This is mainly because of the Tower's policies for males they only ever gentle the spark born as until recently no one has gone on a major male channeller recruitment campaign. The same pretty much goes for the women so many are either never found or are turned away that the channeling gene is spread back out into the populous. The lack of numbers is a result of millenia of attrition brought about by the towers policies.
The real question is at one point say 2500 years ago did the tower realise that the aloof/disliked position they had chosen/forced to adopt after the breaking would lead to overall culling of the ability in people and deliberately adopt these policies to ensure that enough channelers would continue to breed to keep the ability alive.
dragonsceptor: 2004-02-03
**...every man that demonstrates an inherent ability to channel is captured and stilled. It is simply a lack of breeding.**
If this is the case then how do you explain the Ashaman? There are hundreds of them that were not found by the Reds. Your argument does not hold up when in less than a year, the black tower has been able to round up as many as they have. I certainly agree that genetics have a part but I think the soul and the need of the pattern also play a part.
Davian93: 2004-02-03
The Red Ajah gets every man with the spark, most of the AM would have to learn to channel. It wasn't born in them. Therefore the Red Ajah would never get them.
DamodredInstead: 2004-02-05
I tend to agree with Philosopher's position here. It is not so much a matter of how MANY people can channel though, we can debate whether these people existed but were not found all we want. The real issue is the amount of the Power the younger women can wield. Surely, some force is causing powerful Aes Sedai to be born, and found and trained, in time for Tarmon Gai'don
Davian93: 2004-02-05
Of course some force is causing the young women to appear right before the Last Battle. The Pattern weaves out the channelers when it needs them. But the ability to channel is still based on a persons genetic makeup. The Pattern causes people to marry and have offspring that will be able to channel when they are needed. The pattern also caused the Rebel Tower to start testing everyone woman they came across for the ability because channelers, no matter what their strength is, are needed for Tarmon Gaidin.
Aelfinn: 2004-02-09
***I agree with some of your points, but i dont agree that the pattern is holding back channelers because Moiraine tells us that the pattern is neither good or evil, therefore it would not think that it needs a bunch of channelers to win the last battle. ***
I personally don't agree that the Pattern is holding back channellers, but your point is a non-point.
The Pattern is neither good nor evil, but THIS AGE might REQUIRE a victory for the Light in Tarmon Gai'don.
I'm betting that the Pattern has a sense of self-preservation, and the Dark One wants to destroy it. Therefore, it wouldn't let the LB be won by the Shadow, or have the Shadow win in the [extremely] long run.
Personally, *I* think the reason [Randland] channellers are more rare is partially lack of recruitment, partially balancing the abundance of channellers in the Age of Legends, and partially genetics, with channeling being more recessive and not very many having the "spark" born in them.
vodomar: 2004-02-10
The Aes Sedai up to this point have been specific in who they have chosen for training. There have been many references to the acceptable age of siutable girls - most have been too young or too old. Now Egwene has said no one will be turned away hence any woman who seeks out an Aes Sedai (and those found by any) and are able to channel are accepted. And now, as said by Callandor, there is an explosion in the number of novices.
It is possible that the completely based on genetics theory is correct. Who knows how many women and men can channel, especially since most are able to learn. My point is that those who can learn could learn to channel and those put out of the tower probably end up with children. That's lots of women (based on the amount of new recruits with the rebel group representing only a small percentage of the population) having alot of children. Aes Sedai denial of there being a problem (and hence not rectifying) is probably the main reason there were so few Aes Sedai , novices and accepted in the tower and so the pattern was holding back channelers by not letting them be discovered or the Aes Sedai just haven't bothered looking.
A similar thing can be said for males. No woman can test a man to see if he can learn to channel and so only a few have been found (those that have already channeled). Once they were sought after by Taim, hundreds were found and so I put forward that the Pattern wasn't holding anything back, they were there and no one bothered to look.
The soul based theory is a little less appealing to me than the genetics one on its own. But saying that Halima being able to channel is due to the dark one putting Aran'gar's soul in the body of the woman. So genetics didn't play a part (no woman has ever channeled saidin and so there is probably no possibility that one could). Together they tend to make more sense.
Khaos: 2004-02-10
It occurs to me that the most likely combination is that the abilty to channel is entirely genetic, as is either being born with the spark or just the ability.
However the amount you can channel may very well and is very likely to be based on your soul. doesn't mean one soul is better than another just more suited shall we say. Thus LTT and Rand would be able to channel the exact same amount of the one power.
free will: 2004-02-10
I disagree 100%, so let me explain why.
First, A soul is reborn many times in a single Age
In aCoS Mat recognizes phrases from Brigette's past lives as things he remembers from his other men's memories. However, all Mat's memories are concentrated between around 500 AB and Hawking's day. This means Birgette was reborn many times over those 1500 years, which means a soul is reborn many times an Age, not just once.
Second, the reduction in channelers was been steady and constant over centuries
If we assume that the pattern is witholding channelers and that that is responsible for the reduction in sisters in the WT, then the pattern is withholding channelers for many soul-cycles just to make the reduction more gradual. Why would the pattern do that?
A rhetorical question means one thing ... blame the BA. The BA can go looking for sisters and if a women can be taught but doesn't have the spark and is a darkfriend then she brings her back to the WT, and if she isn't a darkfriend then the Black sister says that girl is "too weak" to become an Aes Sedai. Simple as pie. That's why someone with the spark is less likely to be BA.
As for the increase in false dragons, remember when Alvirin said to Elaida that 21 is a dangerous number? This means that Eladia knows that the Red Ajah found more men that channel than they let on, which indicates that the Red Ajah really was responsible for setting up false dragons.
So your theory doesn't explain the huge numbers of Sea Folk, Aiel, Sharan, and Seanchan channelers. It doesn't explain why the decline was gradual. And most importantly if the reduction of sisters was actually do to a decline in channeling souls, then why did the little tower find so many older women who could learn to channel?
If there were simply less to be found, then there wouldn't be many older women who could learn. Obviously the WT is at the least not putting in the effort to find all the women that can and in all likelihood the BA is actively ingorning women who can learn that walk in the light. The BA is also likely behind keeping the channeling Sea Folk and Aiel a secret from the WT for so long, because the BA wants to be a majority in the WT.
So the BA has been anti-recruiting friends of the Light, and only recruiting darkfriends, now the little tower is finally having an objective open-door policy.
Halima
Genetics determine whether you just can learn or have the spark, i.e. how you learn. Your soul determines your strength and channeling gender. To have the spark you need a body gender and channelling gender to match and good genetics. That's why the spark is rare. TO be taught you just need someone with the same body gender and channeling gender that can channel to teach you. Thus Halima might be able to teach other women to channel saidin, but I doubt s/he'll try.
Davian93: 2004-02-11
****A rhetorical question means one thing ... blame the BA. The BA can go looking for sisters and if a women can be taught but doesn't have the spark and is a darkfriend then she brings her back to the WT, and if she isn't a darkfriend then the Black sister says that girl is "too weak" to become an Aes Sedai. Simple as pie. That's why someone with the spark is less likely to be BA.****
No, not really simply because the number of AS that are Black Ajah is probably only a fairly small percentage, something like 10%. There's just as much chance of a girl being a DF having the spark as being able to learn to channel. The percentage of DF's in the general population is also probably small. No really knowing the percentages makes the argument unprovable. Also I'm sure AS that follow the light are also trying to recruit just as much as Black Ajah...and there are (hopefully) a lot more AS in the light than the shadow.
****As for the increase in false dragons, remember when Alvirin said to Elaida that 21 is a dangerous number? This means that Eladia knows that the Red Ajah found more men that channel than they let on, which indicates that the Red Ajah really was responsible for setting up false dragons.****
All that makes 21 a dangerous number is that the Red Ajah was just gentling the men on the spot like Owyn. Those ones werent put on the Tower records so the fact that there were 21 instead of a small number doesnt really prove the Red Ajah was setting up the False Dragons.
****If there were simply less to be found, then there wouldn't be many older women who could learn. Obviously the WT is at the least not putting in the effort to find all the women that can and in all likelihood the BA is actively ingorning women who can learn that walk in the light. The BA is also likely behind keeping the channeling Sea Folk and Aiel a secret from the WT for so long, because the BA wants to be a majority in the WT.****
There are less channelers to be found for a simple reason. Since the War of a Hundred Years the overall population has declined precipitously. Remember there has been a steady decline over the past thousand years and the numbers of AS has also declined because of this. The AS are probably finding the same percentage of channelers they did in years past but the overall number is down because of the decline in population.
Callandor: 2004-02-11
**In aCoS Mat recognizes phrases from Brigette's past lives as things he remembers from his other men's memories. However, all Mat's memories are concentrated between around 500 AB and Hawking's day. This means Birgette was reborn many times over those 1500 years, which means a soul is reborn many times an Age, not just once.**
No, Mat has memories from many SEPERATE men, and maybe women ;), from the start of the Trolloc Wars to Hawkwing's Reign because of the Finn. They are not because his soul was reborn all those times. However, his memories of leading the armies of Manetheren in TDR, are most likely his own rebirth memories, so they are reborn a few times each Age, but we don't know how many exactly.
free will: 2004-02-12
Callandor:
No, Mat has memories from many SEPERATE men, and maybe women ;), from the start of the Trolloc Wars to Hawkwing's Reign because of the Finn. They are not because his soul was reborn all those times. However, his memories of leading the armies of Manetheren in TDR, are most likely his own rebirth memories, so they are reborn a few times each Age, but we don't know how many exactly.
aCoS (chapter: Swovan Night) Birgette says "- But you ... One sentence you're an Eharoni High Prince and the next a First Lord of Manetheren, accent and idiom perfect."
For Birgette to recognize all those accents means that Birgette had to have heard all those accents in her past lives, which means a single soul (Birgette's) was reborn many, many times in 1500 years.
Daebril: 2004-02-14
Whatever you want to say about channeling being tied to the soul is great and about the theory that the creator is able to weave these souls out into the world through his pattern is fine.
However the only reason we think that there are fewer channelers in the world is because we are comparing it to the age of legends and taking for granted what the wholesomely ignorant aes sedai think.
In the age of legends channelers lived for a very long time at least several times as long as the oldest aes sedai, excluding perhaps cadsuane, so the reason there was so many of them was because it was generation upon generation coexisting at the same time and interbreeding. Now about the oathes of the aes sedai and most not reproducing sure that could have an effect on the population of channelers as a whole but I doubt it would be noticable. First of all aes sedai are by far a minority in the population of female channelers. Its like saying that the population of the world will decrease because of a rise in lesbianism... I think not. The population as a whole will still increase. Especially because the rest of soceity still interbreed with channelers all the time and there are more channelers out there who must be taught then have the spark so its safe to assume that this culling is pretty much impossible in the world arena as a whole, maybe in the area of tar valon or its immediate surroundings where these women have a higher chance of being culled out of the society but it is unlikely to hurt populations elsewhere.
Neither the wind finders or the wise ones ever mention a shortage of channelers and they are by far more reliable then the aes sedai at the worst of times.
To add to this proof the black tower and white tower (in exile) have no problems finding recruits in vast numbers despite the stigma associated with either.
Other cultures are still breeding channelers directly, the seanchan, and those on the other side of the waste. So I would argue the number of channelers is pretty much a constant if not increasing. Its not on par with the age of legends but then one wouldn't expect it to be because there is always more people in times of peace. So proportionally worldwide it probably wouldn't change at all except to say that it might be slightly deficient in Randland but I have strong doubts about making even that wide a generalization.
-Or at least that's how I see it. Could be wrong though. :)
Callandor: 2004-02-14
**For Birgette to recognize all those accents means that Birgette had to have heard all those accents in her past lives, which means a single soul (Birgette's) was reborn many, many times in 1500 years.**
Yes, and I agreed to this in the part that you quoted that souls are reborn a few times an Age, but you, in your original text, said that Mat recognized the accent Birgitte was speaking, which is just switched around, and misleading. This is what I was responding to, if more convoluted then it should be.
: 2004-02-17
I just wanted to add my two coppers.
Some women show the spark as early as 13 or 14 but most show up normally around 16 to 18. (Moiriane quotes in NS). The spark is rare in and of itself and only 1 out of 4 survives without training. So, there is a 75% mortality rate for those that are not found. And, that could account for the decrease in female channelers.
But, it seems to me that culturally, most girls are ready for marriage when they are around 16 to 18. And, that AS don't test them too much younger than that.
We never see or hear about an AS with child and there are a few references to novices who will be asked to leave the WT if they become pregnant.
Another tick mark to add to the decline in AS at the WT - if you are married and/or have a child then you are not tested.
The RAS are recruting left and right and we hear about novices that are grandmothers - and up go the number of females that can channel.
The BT recruits any man, and particularly likes the married man because he knows what he is fighting for - and there are a great number who can channel.
Also, men who have the spark might not manifest unil as late as the mid-30s (ref. again in NS). Given the level of health care and number of wars in Randland, these men might have died before the spark ever showed but still procduced offspring.
So, evidence points to the WT being too restrictive in who they will accept as opposed to the Pattern holding back.
As far as genetics go, if channeling is recessive then it would follow along the lines of the recessive trait for blues eyes.
XX = No Channel
Xx = Learn to Channel
xx= Channel (has the spark)
XX + Xx = XX XX XX Xx (1 out of 4 offspring will be able to be taught)
Xx + Xx = Xx Xx XX xx (25% will have has the spark, 50% can be taught, 25% can't channel at all)
XX + xx = Xx (all offspring offspring can be taught)
So, I say that there are multitudes that can be taught due to genetics but have never found a teacher. And the large number of girls found in the 2R is just a matter of inter-bred bloodlines generating a lot of "Xx" and "xx" offspring.
And, another point (perhaps a different theory altogether) is in TEotW Moiraine asks Nyn if she had the sweats and the chills after a "miraculous" healing and explains that Nyn was 1 out of the 4 who survives learning on her own. Nyn mentions some other woman in the next town/village who died a painful death and Moiraine concludes that that woman did not survive learning on her own.
Well, what happens to men who have the spark and no teacher? Do they suffer the same type of painful death? RJ is so good about opposites between the sexes. So, do men who have the spark die peacefully in their sleep if they fail to learn? Or does the duality not come into play until after the learning is done. Because Rand goes through the same "sweats/chills" that Nyn mentions.
Blacksmith: 2004-02-17
Tam,
It looks like I was logged off before submitting my reply. It started with "Adding my two coppers". sorry and thanks.
Korell: 2004-02-18
I think the point Callondor may have been trying to make about Mat is that his memories are not just from his soul i dont remember the quote but i belive i saw where Matt somtimes had memories of the same battle but from diffrent men and diffrent sides thefore his memories are not connected to his soul as Callador said they were put there by the finn
LameAim: 2004-02-21
Blacksmith:
**Guide ,Chp. 1 (paperback pg. 13)**
"Before the time of the Breaking of the World, men faced much the same risks as women when born with the ability to channel."
That should answer your question.
Concerning the influence of genetics on the ability to channel:
**Guide ,Chp. 3 (paperback pg. 27)**
"Since the ability to channel was a genetic recessive, only two to three percent of the population could channel."
Davian93: 2004-02-21
"Since the ability to channel was a genetic recessive, only two to three percent of the population could channel."
I guess that pretty much kills the debate about genetics. Of course the pattern is still in control of who marries who and who has kids from each other so both the Pattern and genetics play a part in the number of channelers.
Arlamos: 2004-02-22
I was thinking, maybe its not souls that the creator is hold back, but the One Power itself. Since the wheel of time is a cycle, then the creator probably knows in what age the dark one will be closest to being freed. So my thoughts are that the creator has been slowly gathering all the One Power for himself and then will use all of it to imprision the Dark One. That might explain why in the AoL, the channelers were so strong and plentiful.
Davian93: 2004-02-22
****I was thinking, maybe its not souls that the creator is hold back, but the One Power itself. Since the wheel of time is a cycle, then the creator probably knows in what age the dark one will be closest to being freed. So my thoughts are that the creator has been slowly gathering all the One Power for himself and then will use all of it to imprision the Dark One. That might explain why in the AoL, the channelers were so strong and plentiful.****
That wouldnt make any sense. Channelers do not use up the OP. They are like a water mill. The OP drives the mill but is not used up. The Creator would have no reason to gather up the OP even if he could. I believe there is a set amount of the OP and this is what drives the wheel.
Mairashda: 2004-02-23
I don't think channelers were stronger or more plentiful in the AoL than in the 3rd age.
it's just a matter of infrastructure: in the AoL every last channeler, wilder or not was found and trained.
But now...due to the failure of the Tower, fewer channelers are found and many wilders (who are usually the strongest channelers) are left to die because they are never tested...
dragonsceptor: 2004-04-22
** I don't think channelers were stronger or more plentiful in the AoL than in the 3rd age.
it's just a matter of infrastructure: in the AoL every last channeler, wilder or not was found and trained.**
The RJ Question of the week provides an answer to this. He was discussing why the DO recycles the forsaken instead of just recruiting new ones...It says, "But he also operates under a constraint that did not exist in the Age of Legends. At that time, about 3% of the population could learn to channel to some extent, though not all chose to -- the training program took time, and being able to channel carried with it certain obligations that not everyone wanted to undertake -- but that still meant there were, at a minimum, hundreds of thousands of people in the world who could channel, and more likely millions. A large pool of possible recruits. Break a tool or decide it isn't working right and throw it out, because there is an endless supply of similar tools waiting on the shelf. That might be said to have been his attitude. In the here-and-now of the books, that figure is about 1%, and of that 1%, very, very few have any idea that they could learn to channel, much less have any training at all. Here-and-now, the pool of possible recruits is tiny."
So, in summary, there are fewer channellers in the 3rd age than in the AOL AND not all channellers became AS in the AOL. This still doesn't tell us why there are fewer channellers. The White Ajah's expanation makes as much sense as any.
Dezza: 2005-07-18
I think that channeling is both genetic and soul based. But unlike some this is what I think. There are at least two genes involved in channeling like things like eye colour. And both are needed to be able to channel. With all these genes being recessive. from this you would have about 6% of the population able to channel.
If I recall Corectly the DO needs to find suitable bodies to place the Forsakens souls in, which I thought meant a specific genetic makeup.
Then on top of this the soul needs the ability to be able to channel. And there could even be a gene that determines maximum strength.
Thinking of it as a single gene and soul I think is a little simplistic. By having more genes a family could carry only one and never produce a channeller. It would also account for how the windfinders have so many generations of channellers but it is not every family member.
El Bogarto: 2005-07-18
This reply is to Tamyrlin -
When I read your rhetorical question: "In other words, if two people can channel, and they have a child that is genetically disposed to channel, must the Pattern send that body a soul with the ability to channel?" I had a stray thought.
Perhaps, given the above scenario, the genetically disposed child without a soul that formerly channeled is one who could be taught, and the genetically disposed child WITH a channeling soul is a sparker, instead?
Ishamael: 2005-07-19
RJ states that one of the themes for the series is that no one knows everything...with that being said..you have to take what the Aes Sedai say with a grain of salt. As for the soul and genetics issue..channeling in general is genetic...the soul determines whether the channeler uses Saidin or Saidar...Halima only proves this..the DO stuffed a Man's soul into a womans body...so the soul still draws on Saidin..but if not for genetics...he/she wouldn't be able to channel at all..it is all in the genes...and as far as the pattern spitting out more channelers and stronger channelers because of TG...unlikely..as previously stated..the pattern doesnt choose sides...population difference, Aes sedai ignorance, and lack of effor in searching are the reasons for "low numbers"...but keep in mind..it is low compared to the AOL..a highly populated and technologically advanced age. A combination of Ta'verenness and more effort in searching is responsible for the surflux in channelers as of late. And as for the pattern spitting out stronger channelers for TA...ex. Egwene, Elayne, and Nynaeve...keep in mind Alivia is not only older but stronger in the power than all three. Did the pattern spit her out too..knowing she would survive long enough to reach TG? And who is to say that the previously mentioned are even the strongest? They may be the strongest we have met so far..but we havent met EVERYONE in the world. For all we know..there is a male channeler out there..non-Forsaken who may be as strong as Rand. Face it..we are as ignorant as the Aes Sedai on this issue..haha
Traveller: 2005-07-19
Someone kick me if i'm wrong, but I thought that only some souls were Reborn. Oww, that hurt.
Anyway, I think that channeling is part of the soul for those Reborn, but is also genetic. I think that Red Ajah is culling out the ability to Channel, and that the Aes Sedai are too highminded to look for women who can channel, so only those who go to the Tower are known. Given that so many women aren't too enthusiastic about Aes Sedai, not everyne will go, and I am sure that many don't even realise- Nynaeve etc.
JakOShadows: 2005-07-20
I agree with Dezza here. It is both based on the soul and genetics. The soul decides on saidin or saidar, but it is obviously unnatural for saidar to be used by a man and vice-versa. Then with the genetics thing, I believe it is a lot like skin color or eye color. There are more than one that determine the ability to channel or not. There is one thing I disagree on though, I believe it is the soul that decides whether you can channel, but if you don't have the genetics, you have to work to be able to do it.(basically learn the ability) But if the soul can't channel, the ability can't be learned. But there isn't much to prove it so that is supposition there. Logically, I just connect the ability to learn as building a connection, like lifting weights to build muscle.